Obama's State of the Onion by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Obama's State of the Onion

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 13:42
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VIEWED: 676
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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:23 PM

Okay, feedback time. I have opinions, everyone does, but I don't want to make this thread about my opinions, so I'm going to open mic this.

Itemize, if you can, the elements of the Obama plan, and react to it. Let's try not to be too partisan pro- or anti- and just try to comment. But also, people bear in mind that democrats are liberal and republicans are conservative and may like or dislike parts of the plan for that reason. He is our president, so let's try not to blindly oppose or blindly support.

All feedback is welcome. I'll be editing this header to include an itemized list of things on the agenda as people mention them.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:55 PM

SERGEANTX

I only caught bits and pieces of it, but I did hear he's including the costs of our various wars in the budget, specifically to make the true costs of our military adventures apparent (as if all the dead people isn't cost enough). That's a good idea in my opinion. He keeps doing little things here and there that are steps in the right direction and, apart from the stimulus nonsense, has done nothing horrible yet. Plus, he can deliver a speech without embarrassing us all!

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:57 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

1. Pelosi's gotta go.

2. Pelosi has to leave.

3. Pelosi cannot stay.

4. The plastic fakey b##yach gotta pack up and move her shite down the road.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
1. Pelosi's gotta go.

2. Pelosi has to leave.

3. Pelosi cannot stay.

4. Pelosi can't not not go.

Re-read # 4. It doesn't quite fit. She can't not not go means she can stay - and I get the sneaky feeling that's not what you're trying to say...

But I'm in agreement with you on the first three.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 2:03 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Fixed!

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 2:37 AM

DREAMTROVE

Okay, now there have been a few comments, to say that I hated the plan doesn't beging to cover it. I was quite disappointed. I thought, Okay, so Obama is putting us another trillion in the hole, but if, unlike the wars in the mideast, we take that money and spend it at home... that's a step up, right? I won't say that I disagreed with everything he said, only about 95%.

He came out as a hardcore Keynesian with a strong streak of not quite socialism, but welfare nanny state. A lot about "helping people" to pay bills, and be put back to work. The people don't need to be put back to work, the people will work, if left alone. They don't need to pay bills, the legitimacy of the bills needs to be called into question. Home equity adjustments. Why are we paying for this? The banks and home owners bought an item that decreased in value. I bought a stock. It went down. Can I get a bailout from the govt. for a "price adjustment?" My stock has negative equity! It's worth less than it was initially, I need the govt. to pay back my losses!

But it just gets worse. There was money pouring into Public Education, the threat of forcing kids into the systematic brainwashing center that *is* the number one drug market in the country.

There's just too much to hate, moving on. Increased military, and wars. The man actually said war with Pakistan. I want to re-iterate briefly the concept of international law. You, as a nation, have credibility because your word is good, there is a record of that, it's a collection of treaties that you sign, which you do not violate. The US and UK are the sponsors of the state of Pakistan, bound by treaty to defend her against all enemies. As I think it was actually David Cameron who was that in the event, the UK has no legal recourse but to declare war on the United States. He wasn't saber rattling, he knew how absurd it sounded, but he meant that given the nature of international law, it was illegal for them to do anything else.

This, IMHO, knocks Obama's IQ down a few pegs. If the US blatantly betrays the trust of our sworn allegiance, then it voids every treaty we've ever written. The idea that Pashtun tribalists in the remote mountains of Pakistan represent a threat to the United States is patently absurd. About as absurd as the Bushmen of the Kalihari representing such a threat. If that's the true state of affairs, we might as well throw in the towel right now.

Draw down our forces in Iraq in 18 months... where have I heard this before, but increase military spending? Someone just lost a bet.

Also, help americans afford skyrocketing medical costs? How about using a little free market economics to bring down skyrocketing medical costs. Same with home an energy expenses.

Okay, I liked the investment in alternative energy. But wtf on slamming korea for making hybrid batteries for ford? i mean, seriously, if there was an asian economic power he didn't slam in that speech... If Koreans make batteries, good for them, we can free up our workforce to do other things. I mean, sure, I believe in self sufficiency, but it's not like the US has zero capacity to make batteries. Buying foreign batteries is a threat to our national security/?

Give me a break. Oh, and a bail out. Also, the much hyped stem cell announcement Axelrod gave us on Fox News Sunday was struck from the speech. Give way to big Pharma much?

Oh, and some petty moves from democrats that do things like "a tax credit for higher education." One second there. Democrats, sorry, have pulled this one way too many times. A $2,000 tax credit for anything DOES NOT HELP THE POOR. This might be because the poor don't pay any taxes on the account of HAVING NO INCOME. I swear, this is right out of the John Kerry playbook.

Ron Paul gave a great dissenting opinion on the floor of the house for this bill.

Oh, and the banking package was awful. Not a penny to banking CEOs, right.. This money just goes to pay off debts that those guys artificially created, in a handout, to those banks, while borrowing the money from said banks to do so, and then paying back interest on that loan in perpetuity by taxing the american people. Let me add this up: So a bank created an artificial value on a equity, created loans to pay for such equity, and now will get a handout of equity adjustment, which will be paid for from another bank loan taken out by the govt., and paid for by the ammerican taxpayer, only paid in interest. Forever. Great. That's an awesome economic stimulus.

Meanwhile, industries forced into debt by bad govt. policy, such as the auto companies, are going to have to "suck it up." I think that was the gist.

Yes, one more minor detail that just happens to destroy the American economy forever:

"We're eliminating the tax break for companies that ship jobs overseas." A good old democratic line. Sorry to be so partisan, I guess now I'm not a republican, it's not partisan, but this is still moronic.

Allow me to translate. There is no "tax break" for "shipping jobs overseas." First off, jobs didn't ship anywhere. American companies hired non-americans. Overseas. The same way the Japanese and everyone else does. If Toyota wants to make cars and sell them in America, if hires Americans. Those Americans have to pay American taxes, but they don't have to pay Japanese taxes.

So, the "tax break" is that if you set up a plant in China, to make goods, to either be shipped back to the USA, or more now, to be sold in China, then that company hires Chinese workers. Those workers don't pay US taxes. They just pay Chinese taxes. Because they're Chinese. But now, we'll close that "loophole." This means that now those workers will have to pay American taxes. And oh yeah, you betchya that they are going to have to pay Chinese taxes still.

Now say an American Company, such as Ford, is making cars for Chinese consumption, along side the Iranian Nano. Nano workers pay chinese taxes, and Ford workers will pay chinese taxes, and Ford workers will also pay American taxes. Everyone here is familiar with statistical evolution and can tell me where the flow of talented labor is going to go, and who is going to produce the cheaper car, and will eventually dominate the market. Nothing against Iran, but to hand them our industry on a silver platter? Okay, that's just moronic.

But let's take another example, one where we don't (yet) have a level competitor. A US company such as Intel can have a plan in, say makes a product in India, for the sake of the argument (In reality, they're outsourcing to Ireland these days, but I'm sure they still have plants in India) Anyway, people outsourcing to India, like China, hire huge numbers of staff. If they have to pay tax on those workers, they'll have to fire some. But here's a quick fix. They create a company "Hintel" which is just like Intel, only registered in India, which then sells Intel the chips. (and if intel doesn't do it themselves, someone else does it right quick) The result? No change, except that it is no longer an american company, now it is an indian company. This means not only does it not pay tax to america on its workers, it doesn't pay corporate income tax to america either.

I swear, democrats just skipped economics. It's like, they looked at it, yawned, and said "nah, I think I'll take history of pointless political demonstrations instead.

No offense to the democrats of the board. If you're not holding office, you're not really a democrat, you're a democrat supporter, and you didn't write this policy, but I hope you can see the idiocy.

Oh and check out some of the industry boards where the hot topic of the day is where to relocate to when deserting america completely and how to do it. Nice move.

Queen's Pawn to Albuquerque, New Mexico.

okay, I'm done for the moment [/rant]

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:03 AM

KWICKO

DT: Haven't read all of your response - just getting my morning coffee in me - but I wanted to toss out a quick counterpoint on one thing I saw. This isn't a disagreement by any means, just something to think over...

Quote:
The US and UK are the sponsors of the state of Pakistan, bound by treaty to defend her against all enemies.

That may be, but I think there's a realization by both nations that Pakistan is basically a failed Muslim state (in other words, it's never going to be what we want it to be), while India is a burgeoning democracy with an enormous economy. As such, wouldn't it seem politically prudent (again, not MY position, but quite possibly the position of The Powers That Be) to write off Pakistan in order to curry (no pun intended) favor with India and/or China?

As with all things politick, follow the money.

More later.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:04 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Ron Paul gave a great dissenting opinion on the floor of the house for this bill.

And the Republicans put up Jindal's tripe instead...

If the speech was as you described, I share your disappointment. I'll read the transcript. I expected the Keynesian stuff. Bush started it, with the bank bailouts, and more or less gave the Democrats momentum in that direction. Anyway, more later.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:36 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

And the Republicans put up Jindal's tripe instead...

LOL, Jindal said that the Obama plan was so wrong for America, then basically re-stated the Obama plan in different words to describe what we SHOULD be doing.
What a laff.
Pubs & Dems are SOOOO different, eh?

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:37 AM

DREAMTROVE

Sgt X., no arguments from me there.

Mike,

It's a matter of international law. Not opinion. If the US discards a treaty it owes fealty to, then all US treaties are invalid. That means we technically can't have an ally. It was the dumbest thing said by a politician in a very long time, and I know Bush said some pretty dumb things.

Pakistan's status as a failed state would be extremely subjective and very dubious. The US has made no attempt to dissolve our treaty with Pakistan, which with the UK set the groundwork for the international recognition of its independence.

We technically should not be attacking Waziristan, because, though it claims independence, it's within the border we recognize as Pakistan, as does the UN, and so we cannot go there without the approval of the govt. of Pakistan which we do not have. Bombing Swat Valley was as out of line as bombing Ottawa.

I bought into this Obama as supergenius idea until now, but, yeah, granted, he can form a complete sentence, which is a step up for an american president, but that was a moronic speech filled with polispeak filler, just wasting much of his hour to address the people, that's just dumb, and the agenda is pretty dumb, and it doesn't speak to the people, so it's not surprising he has diving poll numbers. Also, can it be possible to fit more fearmongering into one month in office? I thought Bush was fearmonger in chief, but he's a rank amateur. Barack is up to FDR levels.

I saw a lot of deficit spending being handed over to the banks, rather than reform, or just f^&kit, let those who made a bad bet on the market take the fall. I saw handout to the drug companies, rather than an attempt to undercut the corruption of medicine where doctors prescribe treatments that the drug companies tell them too, even inventing conditions that need treatment. I worked with a doctor who said they actually sent whores to his office to try to get him to prescribe this junk. Yeah, if you settled for all the freebies with the logos on it, then you got duped, you shoulda held out for the nookie. Instead, we're apparently just going to pay these suckers, and a new deal err new debt has been struck with america. All rise! And, yes, a Brave New World War III for the Brave New World Order. Amen.

Sorry for the folks who voted for this guy, I gotta second whoever said you've been had. Wife's a looker though, kids are cute. And he can talk, that's a big step up. Oh boy, this is going to be fun.

Ooh, did I mention "get the credit flowing" theme of the whole thing? WTF? Maybe he is Bush. I mean, "nope, we're not going to control costs, we're going to send you in to debt, and better yet, we're goign to go into debt as a nation to do it, so that you get to pay the debt twice, or the interest on the debt twice.

[Edit]Chris: No argument here.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:40 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If the US blatantly betrays the trust of our sworn allegiance, then it voids every treaty we've ever written.

Dream, you must have missed the memo. We don't honour treaties. Ask any Native American.
Pakistan is a rogue nation now, supporting terrorist activity, and threatening India, our dearest source of out-sourcing.
I say level Pakistan now, before their threat reaches our shores!!!

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:42 AM

DREAMTROVE

Curious footnote. The govt. of Pakistan is a CIA installed govt. We took down our own ally Musharraf because he said "Hey, you can't bomb my country." And so we sacrificed Ms. Bhutto, to put the hated mr. bhutto back in power, and then he said, no, it's not okay to bomb Pakistan. Ya, thanks for putting me in power, but don't bomb my country, we have some nukes you know. And we apparently said "Oh yeah? you're bluffing, bet you won't use them!"

Ah, this has been a millenium of massive stupidity, and I'm afraid our dumbest hour is just beginning.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:42 AM

DREAMTROVE

Double post

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:50 AM

CHRISISALL

If Spidey has faith in him, so do I.

"Thanks." -Hero, 2009

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:08 AM

DREAMTROVE

Well, I'm in favor of spider on the $bill, might increase its value. temporarily. I see the market has been loving this stimulus. It mighta reacted better if the taliban had just taken over Nebraska

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:08 AM

DREAMTROVE

Double Post.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2009 1:42 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Fixed!

Awesome! Now we're REALLY on the same page!

And yes, I agree 1000% with all four of those points.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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