Are we animals, or something else? by chrisisall

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Animals.

The one difference is that we create alternate realities for ourselves through words. And to which our brains then respond AS IF they were real.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:16 AM

Are you saying that groups of apes or schools of dolphins are incapable of bullsh*ting each other?

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:17 AM

AGENTROUKA

Biologically, I think, we are animals.

I do, however, feel that there is no contradiction in aknowledging that our mental, emotional and spiritual capacities make us fairly special. We do surpass all other species in this regard.

What does "above animals" mean, in your eyes? Eating them? Exploiting them for fur, pets, eggs, labor? Planning for human needs first, animal needs second?

Is there somewhere in particular you are going with this? It sounds like the set-up for a follow-up question.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:18 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Are you saying that groups of apes or schools of dolphins are incapable of bullsh*ting each other?

Bullshitting how? Practical jokes? Or entirely verbal, abstract constructs?

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

What does "above animals" mean, in your eyes?

Like, we are to animals like God is to us.
Or some such silliness.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:20 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

All creatures are 'animals', Chris--you know that. Biologically. We are one species among many...I'm one of those who has argued on the side of us being "more intelligent", but I don't think that makes us the "supreme species" by any means.

I imagine you won't find many here (among the "thinking" people) who will argue that we aren't animals...there's a pretty strong "anti-human" mentality here. Not that I disagree with it, I just believe that (for good or ill), we are the dominant species and our form of "intelligence" is different from that of other species.

On the path we both tread, all sentient beings have Buddha Nature/ Essence. "Broadly speaking, it denotes beings with consciousness or sentience or, in some contexts, life itself". Neither consciousness nor sentience are restricted to the human speciestho' "sentient" is still not completely decided.

I'm glad you added "somesuch silliness", Chris, as you know how many there are out there who believe we ARE to animals as "God" is to us.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:21 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I'm not a vegetable or a mineral, so that leaves animal.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Bullshitting how? Practical jokes? Or entirely verbal, abstract constructs?

Like dolphin "C" says to dolphin "B" that dolphin "S" has Sonar of Mass Dolphin Destruction & needs to be fed to the fishes.
That sort of bullsh*t.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

On the path we both tread, all sentient beings have Buddha Nature/ Essence. "Broadly speaking, it denotes beings with consciousness or sentience or, in some contexts, life itself". Neither consciousness nor sentience are restricted to the human speciestho' "sentient" is still not completely decided.

Other animals are as intelligent as they need to be. Dolphins have no need to create tools, hence they have no nuclear capability.
Yet.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:31 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Like, we are to animals like God is to us.
Or some such silliness.

I think our relationship with animals is more realistically defined by the fact that for millenia we shared a rivalry and predator-prey relationship with them - just like the animals we are.

We did and what we did because we could, because we gained the upper hand through technology and what-not. We didn't suddenly start disrespecting our mutual animalhood because God told us to.

Respect for animals won't come about through emphasizing that we are only animals. It is and will be a result of our elevation among them, Because it is as artificial as our own achievements.

ETA: "Artificial" is not meant to mean bad or unnecessary. And our achievements are.. tools, highly complex social constructs, philosophy, etc.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:32 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree. The concept of "human dominion" has been perverted into "humans have dominion over "lesser" species" and that the earth was created just for our use, but that's not at all what the Christian or Jewish religion are about--they actually testify in many places in the Bible and Torah that humans should show compassion toward other animals.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:33 AM

Me too.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:34 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Are you saying that groups of apes or schools of dolphins are incapable of bullsh*ting each other?"

There is some indication that chimpanzees do lie to each other by producing sounds associated with an event when that event isn't occurring.

I don't think they 'believe' it themselves, however. For that conclusion I refer to the opaque and transparent box scenario of chimps and children that SignyM posted a while ago.

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Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:40 AM

If it can commit heresy, far as I am concerned it's human.

If it can display detectable emotion, it's people.

That said, imho - not all homo sapiens meet either or both of those criteria, and many other species do.

-F

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:54 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
If it can display detectable emotion, it's people

Are you saying only humans can display detectable emotion? Or that "people" is how you view all animals and different from "human"? If the former, I must have gotten that wrong, from all you've said previously...?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:00 AM

My cats are people. Not all humans are.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:01 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

That's what I hoped Frem is saying. In which case, I agree.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:06 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Haven't read anything but your initial premise, Chris, but yes, we're animals and nothing more. We THINK we have a "soul", with no real definition of what the hell that is, and we THINK we communicate effectively where other species can't, and that they DON'T have "souls", but we have no actual way of knowing that. For all we know, kittens are laughing their friggin' asses off at us, all day every day, for being SO gawddammed stupid that we'll slave away all day just to buy them food and toys.

So who's the smarter animal now, exactly? When did a cat ever devise a weapon to destroy his entire species' ability to go on living? When was the last time you saw a dog so pollute its planet that the rivers and lakes would literally catch fire? And where exactly is our "soul" in all of that math?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:22 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

We're no different from any other animal. If there is such a thing as a soul, all other animals have it too. Animals are plenty intelligent and clearly have emotions and the ability to communicate with each other. Does that mean we can't eat them? Not at all, we have just as much right to eat another animal as any predator does.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
we have just as much right to eat another animal as any predator does.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And where exactly is our "soul" in all of that math?

Everywhere.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:40 AM

TRAVELER

Does having a higher intellegence make us superior to other animals? That spark that allowed us to think in the abstract so we could invent the wheel and paint pictures on the walls of caves may be ready to strike another creature at any moment.

Some animals show a very high sense of spirituality. There are animals that mate for life. That makes me believe there is a spirtual sense involved. Elephants will stop when the come across some bones of a long ago member of their tribe and lift the bones up and toss them as if in some ritual. They also share in they duties of taking care of the young.

I know we have tests to measure I.Q., but I have not heard of a test or any tool to measure a creature's spirtuality.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
That's what I hoped Frem is saying. In which case, I agree.

Ayep, that's how I meant it - but I hadda put in that bit about heresy cause in essence, that is what brought us to technological civilization.

-F

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:25 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

so if we are just animals... it's okay to have people as pets...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:40 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Others (like myself) feel that we are merely well-groomed talking chimps, with no exclusive franchise on "souls" or varieties of intellect.

We are animals because we have established the knowledge base to be able to properly define our place among other living things. We are not however just “well groomed chimps”. Recent discoveries in anthropology may show that we are not great apes at all as has been to most logical assumption in the past. Though we almost certainly share a common ancestor the great apes, apes probably evolved long after the split with upright walking hominids that we are directly descended from. We are defiantly superior in a survival of the fittest sense to other animals that have become extinct, but equal to those that have survived.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:47 PM

[Badger voice]
So, you think you're above the animals; better then."
[/Badger voice]

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:26 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
When did a cat ever devise a weapon to destroy his entire species' ability to go on living?

Who says that's a bad thing? Perhaps one day we'll meet a group of warlike aliens, more intelligent than us, who see this as humanity's crowning achievement.

The human soul has its own character, and sense of moral beauty, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If cats were as intelligent as us and could build civilisations what would their morality be like? Perhaps they'd wipe out all other species of predator, then survey their world 'and see that it was good'.

Quote:
And where exactly is our "soul" in all of that math?

In the fact that you ask that question.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Animals.

But we might have to rethink what it means to be an 'animal' instead of trying impress ourselves with how different we are from them.

We are them and they are us.

So, what's THAT mean ?

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

We are them and they are us.

So, what's THAT mean ?

Ummm... that you're a closet Buddhist?

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:53 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Recent discoveries in anthropology may show that we are not great apes at all as has been to most logical assumption in the past."

Now THAT'S an interesting (but false) idea !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 3:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
We are defiantly superior in a survival of the fittest sense to other animals that have become extinct, but equal to those that have survived.

Defiantly? Definitely?
In any case, survival is always a temporary thing. No individual lives forever, and no species remains unchanged. And if we don't get our sh*t together, we'll wind up like the trilobites... everywhere and anywhere all over the world and then... poof!

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
survival is always a temporary thing

In a corporeal sense, yes. But we live, all the time, in ourselves & everything around us. One with the Universe, if not always with each other.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:09 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I have a slightly different take on it.

Everything alive today is a direct descendant of the very first cell that survived and reproduced. And though you and I may die, we are just small parts of a larger life which encompasses all life on earth.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
so if we are just animals... it's okay to have people as pets...

(/bitter snark ON)
Oh yes, we call them children.
(/bitter snark OFF)

I always thought we might be closer to lemurs, but really I dunno jack damn all about the science involved so that's just puffin smoke in the wind.

So far as such things go, out in the backwaters of West Virgina, Kentucky or Georgia, I'd say you're pretty likely to run into a coupla folk who might conceivably be homo erectus...
(is it bad that seeing an actual listing of conservation status on wiki for humans, and noting it as "least concern" sent me into giggles ?)

Really I am amused by the whole discussion, in part cause Wendy gave me an "early B-day present" today in the form of a large, plastic caveman club as a snark on my "barbaric" tendancies.

-F

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

We are them and they are us.

So, what's THAT mean ?

Ummm... that you're a closet Buddhist?

The laughing Chrisisall

Or maybe, the Buddhist are closet Raptors?

Also, Dinosaurs ruled the planet for over 160 MILLION years.

Homo Sapiens have been around for what.... a few hundred thousand years ?

A sense of perspective is due. We would do well to remember our place.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
[Badger voice]
So, you think you're above the animals; better then."
[/Badger voice]

The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

Only the ones I'm better than. :)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
When did a cat ever devise a weapon to destroy his entire species' ability to go on living?

Who says that's a bad thing? Perhaps one day we'll meet a group of warlike aliens, more intelligent than us, who see this as humanity's crowning achievement.

The human soul has its own character, and sense of moral beauty, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If cats were as intelligent as us and could build civilisations what would their morality be like? Perhaps they'd wipe out all other species of predator, then survey their world 'and see that it was good'.

Quote:
And where exactly is our "soul" in all of that math?

In the fact that you ask that question.

Heads should roll

But what evidence do you have that animals don't have that soul? Where's your proof that they don't share a sense of "moral beauty", or that they don't have an appreciation for beauty?

You're measuring "intelligence" in HUMAN constructs, in HUMAN terms. How long can YOU live in the desert? A sidewinder can get along pretty darned well with no artificial means of support. Are you smarter because you have a car, or is the snake smarter for not needing one?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Or maybe, the Buddhist are closet Raptors?

Really? Which one?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:15 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Or maybe, the Buddhist are closet Raptors?

Really? Which one?

It's really become too easy.

Ring the bell, here comes Kwickie.

*le sigh*

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:48 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
But what evidence do you have that animals don't have that soul?

I think they do have a 'soul', it's just not as complex as ours - mainly because their brain power is less. I suspect they only process very basic thoughts, by our standards.

When we learn to read animals' minds we will find out for sure. I imagine their thoughts will be simple, slow and inane. But each animal's soul will have a different character.

Interestingly Neanderthals are thought to have had just as much brain power as us - but I reckon our souls have always been more complex, because we're social creatures. Neanderthal tools have survived and been found, but no Neanderthal art, as I understand it. Would a Neanderthal feel as warmly towards animals as we (homosapiens) do? That's an interesting question.

I suspect it wouldn't feel the same sense of moral admiration and kinship towards dolphins and dogs as we do, to our fellow social creatures. But would it (did it) keep other pets? I rather think human beings are peculiar in this respect (it seems like strange psychology for a carnivore to evolve) but I could be wrong.

Heads should roll

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:16 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
so if we are just animals... it's okay to have people as pets...

(/bitter snark ON)
Oh yes, we call them children.
(/bitter snark OFF)

-F

it hurts 'cuz it's true...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:33 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
We are defiantly superior in a survival of the fittest sense to other animals that have become extinct, but equal to those that have survived

I disagree. Other species fit IN with their world, instinctively or genetically; we change the world to fit our SHORT-TERM convenience, and along the way have made millions of other species extinct or removed them from competition with us or introduced species for our convenience which have caused others to go extinct, and in doing so screwed up the entire natural balance. Few other species have done that.

“We”, as a species, are not even winners in “survival of the fittest”, given that on our own individually we would be slaughtered by many other predator species. As in:

Quote:
You're measuring "intelligence" in HUMAN constructs, in HUMAN terms. How long can YOU live in the desert? A sidewinder can get along pretty darned well with no artificial means of support. Are you smarter because you have a car, or is the snake smarter for not needing one?

As to the right to eat others; if we’re in any way superior, we should have changed our ways once we realized we’re omnivores and don’t need to eat other species, which would have removed a lot of the damage we are doing in eating a mostly-meat diet.

Quote:
Everything alive today is a direct descendant of the very first cell that survived and reproduced. And though you and I may die, we are just small parts of a larger life which encompasses all life on earth.

I agree; but the Texas school board would have serious disagreement with your concept!

As for

Quote:
When we learn to read animals' minds we will find out for sure. I imagine their thoughts will be simple, slow and inane

Really? How much “mentality” do you think it takes to know how to measure complex water currents? Maybe about as much mentality as it takes to drive a car—subconscious recognition of what is and how to deal with it. I can think of quite a few humans whose thoughts are “simple, slow and inane” compared to other species. We went through all of this with DT (where IS DT these days? I miss him), and the question is both unanswerable and moot. Animals do so many things which call for complex mentality, we will never be able to judge them and compare them to us.

I’ve heard the joke about dogs welcome, kids much be on leash...I fully approve! I’ve known FAR more disruptive, downright dangerous kids than I have dogs...sorry Frem, not making a statement about what MADE them that way or that all are, but I’ve thought of that numerous times. My dogs are better behaved than most kids (or adults) I’ve met!

And there is NO doubt whatsoever that animals are far more "pets" than children. Their protections might not be good, but there is little, if any, protection for pets, and far more are treated as "objects to possess" than there are kids. Nonetheless, neither one deserves the status they are forced into.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:30 AM

Quote:

When we learn to read animals' minds we will find out for sure. I imagine their thoughts will be simple, slow and inane.

Sounds like you think of animals as Republicans. :)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

I think they do have a 'soul', it's just not as complex as ours - mainly because their brain power is less.

Oh, THAT is a low blow to Sarah Palin's youngest child!! So, his "soul" is not as "complex" as any other child? Brainpower is the measure of a SOUL now??? Were Hitler & Einstein's souls more "complex" than YOURS????
Elitist Humancentric balderdash!

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:38 AM

WHODIED

While I acknowledge that Agnosticism is the only rational conclusion, I can't help but view my shadow as a two dimensional representation of my three dimensional self, and I wonder: is there a four dimensional version defining me as it's shadow?

Also, I'm reminded of the best graffiti ever, which is, unsurprisingly, in Latin: Ignotus Per Ignotium.

Are we animals? Physiologically, I have to say yes, but is that the extent of it? No. The evidence is MORE than sufficient, in my opinion. As to what the evidence indicates we ACTUALLY are?

Well, I'm just collating data, as they say...

--WhoDied

_______________________

Yeah, we're mostly just giving each other significant glances and laughing incessantly.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoDied:

Are we animals? Physiologically, I have to say yes, but is that the extent of it? No.

Again, I have to say that acting like we are "beyond" animals is an egocentric idea IMO.
Cannot animals do things we cannot?
Cannot animals sense things we cannot?
Be happy to be an animal. Don't compartmentalize.
Revel in you uniqueness, but don't proclaim absolute superiourity because of it.
As we are the race of mankind, also are we the lifeforms of Earth.

You eat a fish, one day a shark might eat you; it's all good.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 9:47 AM

WHODIED

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by WhoDied:

Are we animals? Physiologically, I have to say yes, but is that the extent of it? No.

Again, I have to say that acting like we are "beyond" animals is an egocentric idea IMO.
Cannot animals do things we cannot?
Cannot animals sense things we cannot?
Be happy to be an animal. Don't compartmentalize.
Revel in you uniqueness, but don't proclaim absolute superiourity because of it.
As we are the race of mankind, also are we the lifeforms of Earth.

You eat a fish, one day a shark might eat you; it's all good.

I don't believe that we are beyond animals in the sense your quote marks seem to imply. (And here I hear a Badger saying, "I'm above you. Better than.") But I do believe that we are like the cortex of the Earth Mind (if you will,) and as such, have dominion over, while still answering to, the reptilian brain and others. Much as (not my book) the bible suggests that we have been given the husbandry of the earth.

Is it significant that most of the really important numbers we've discovered are irrational? 1.618; 2.718; 3.141; et al; Or is it only indicative of our arbitrary system of account? I don't know, but there's no evidence I've seen that suggests Ms. Kitty Fantastico contemplates such things.

As far as I know, maybe she's the fortunate one, for that.

Ultimately, be there no heaven, no bardo, no braman, still the words of Ben Parker ring in my ear, and what greater power (barring geophysical and extraterrestrial FORCES,) is there than sapience?

I say were ARE more, I do NOT say we're better.

--WhoDied

_______________________

Yeah, we're mostly just giving each other significant glances and laughing incessantly.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 9:59 AM

Well, the leash thing, I think there's good and bad in that - didn't used to, I thought it was a horrific thing, initially...
And it CAN be, oh indeed, having seen kids practically dragged that way gives me the shudders.

But I was at Kings Dominion once, and there was this lady with a small girl, and they had some kinda retracting tether which seemed less likely to catch on stuff or trip someone up - and given the crowd density and general chaos, it was all to easy to see how a small child could be swept away in an eyeblink, since despite the tether (which seemed a backup measure) the mother was holding the girls hand for the most part - and when she needed both hands to do something, like get cotton candy, I was watching the childs reaction...

Who would, ever so many seconds, reach back and grab the tether to make sure it was still attached, and that mommy was in range.

The kid did NOT see it as a leash, the kid saw it as a safety line, a life line - and in that moment I realized those things were not wholly evil, it was just the purpose and method of their use often was.

I still taunt my ex about getting one, even when we were together, cause she has a BAD case of "Attention Defici-OOOh shiny!" goin on, and a fetish for gadgets of all kind (I swear she's a Ronco dream customer) which she uses maybe twice and then pitches in a closet somewhere...

So, all it takes is to look away for ONE FRIGGIN SECOND, and ya look back, and she's GONE, which involves me quartering and patrolling the store to find her, or letting our a frustrated (and impressively accurate) Meow so she knows where *I* am and to come find me.

We still do our shopping together, since we're still friends and we're really the only ones who'll ever put up with each other for very long.

-F

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:05 AM