Government efficiency by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Government efficiency

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 07:20
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Monday, May 17, 2010 3:14 AM

More from the mind that blows up a neighborhood in Quetta, Pakistan because there are two suspects in it:
http://www.freep.com/article/20100516/NEWS01/100516012/Detroit-girl-7-
shot-and-killed-by-police

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Monday, May 17, 2010 3:51 AM

BYTEMITE

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Dato=20100517&Kategori=NEW
S05&Lopenr=5170350&Ref=AR&template=fullarticle

Here's a version with slightly more information about the aftermath. I suspect Frem hasn't commented yet because he's too angry right now.

The question is, WILL this serve as a wake-up call, or will no one take responsibility, and everyone just go back to business as usual? You hear comments calling for people to "come together to create a city where they don't have to be afraid of the police, and the police don't have to be afraid of the city." As reasonable as that sounds, and doesn't even put blame anywhere, how likely is it that the outcry is even more likely to make the police feel defensive, like there's danger they need to crack down on, a push to restore peace by force?

Frem has said that even though he and Evans are on the opposite side, he respects Evans at least for not being corrupt. Maybe Evans will be able to do something about his runaway police force now, assuming that he wasn't put up to that vacation to get him out of town for all this.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 6:12 AM

DREAMTROVE

Byte

Thanks. I wondered what had happened to you. Frem isn't online all the time, it just appears that way ;)

Nah, things wont change, but it doesn't need to be a wakeup call to them, but rather to us:these guys are not there to protect you. They are there to punish you, but they can also miss, so they are very dangerous.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 6:34 AM

BYTEMITE

My brother came home from New York, so I was house cleaning. Been a busy week.

Otherwise <_< if I'm not sleeping, I actually am online all the time. >_> Though this week looks to be a busy one at work.

"More defensive yields crackdown" it is, then. :( Just once I'd like to see more people have a crisis of conscience though. I have to believe even the abusive types, and the corrupt, and the authoritarian, they have to have something human in them. Some redeeming connection that could resonate. Make them see. Make them question themselves.

I'm going to be disappointed a lot.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 6:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

What a horrible thing. I don't see it as an indictment of the police, from what I read, however. And I say that from the perspective of knowing a lot about the Detroit Police's history of over-reaction and aggressiveness.

It actually SOUNDS to me like an improvement over years past, that there is an effort to admit the horror, rather than defend it; I hope Evans is what everyone says, which at least SEEMS to be indicated by people calling for him.

Yes, defensiveness will result, which might make the police be more careful, actually. I don't think this case, at least, is one of deliberate police brutality or anything, just a situation gone horribly wrong. I didn't see anywhere that the police were accused of DELIBERATELY shooting anyone, the reports seem to agree it was an accident. That's a beginning.

I don't think the use of those devices is a good thing; rude as it may be to say it, the police are there to fight the battles; throwing a flash bomb into someone's house just begs for an innoent to be hurt. They ARE military weapons and don't belong in neighborhoods without a really well-thought out, SERIOUS reason.

A tradgedy any way you look at it, for the girl, her family, the neighbors, and police-citizen relatsionships. And I neither accept or will think along the one-sided mentality of "these guys are not there to protect you. They are there to punish you." Just how I feel.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, May 17, 2010 7:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Wake up call my ass, we're on the verge of a fucking riot here.

I've been detailing the slide into chaos in this thread, to keep it all in one place.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=42970

Long and short of it is that we're damn near at war with our own police force, to the point where the locals have started sniping at them, wounded one that I know of, and the jackboots have gone totally rabid about the lack of fawning servility they expect from the peons, resulting in this complete fuck up.

They were told there were eldery and children present, they didn't give a shit, violated their own policies, disregarded everyting in their wild rage to kill, and one of em tripped over an old lady on the floor stunned, and because he was unsafely handling his weapon*, now someones kid is dead.

And it's just fuel on the damn fire, it is, ESPECIALLY when they tried to fucking lie about it and stated that the old lady jumped him and tried to wrestle the gun away, you read the thread I've been posting in, you can *imagine* how well THAT went over with the locals.

And there's Evans, whining and waffling, copping out that he doesn't have the authority to make the necessary changes, while the blue suit mafia screams in rage and outright *threatens* the citizens, reform advocates, and neighborhood watch people who are doin the job they won't.

-Frem

*Again, you do not, DO NOT, put your finger on the fucking trigger until you have a target, and this is expressly WHY, not that it's an uncommon practice - and when you have some jumped up, adrenalin pumped, steroid suckin badge boy with the damn trigger halfway already, this kind of shit happens.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6374

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Monday, May 17, 2010 7:19 AM

BYTEMITE

I don't REALLY blame the police, they're a product of the situation and environment they're put in. When you're exposed to people who don't like you and might want to hurt you, CONSTANTLY, you tend to BECOME reactionary. No one WANTS to get hurt or shot. It's an emotional defense.

At the same time, police departments have to do a job. That job is technically to enforce the laws. Involved in enforcing the laws is the concept of punishment as a discouragement. Someone doesn't actually have to be guilty of anything to serve as an example.

Secondly, it's well documented that not only does constant exposure to the criminal element make police reactionary, it also causes police to bond more closely to each other. It's described as a "tribal" sort of "protect my brothers" mentality that's based upon "us versus them." Them is anyone who could potentially pose a threat to the tribe. Detroit is a fairly dangerous place in general, seemingly at random, even, which has apparently fostered in the police a sense of mistrust towards the average citizen. And, going by what Frem says, even greater mistrust towards what are seen as certain problem minority groups.

And thirdly, police departments don't get enough funding to do that job. So they have to get it from elsewhere. This leads to corruption and police committing crimes that are covered up by their brothers, and the feeling that in enforcing the law, they are above the law. Or that they can take advantage of the average citizen through abuse of authority and enforcement. Say you have one state where they allow 75mph on the interstate, and another state which only allows 65 mph. Say you have state troopers for the 65 mph state camped out on the state boundary, setting a speed trap to enforce the 65 mph. Say there's nothing around the interstate except grassland, and no real reason for the drop in speed limit except for the two differing laws in the states. If police are meant to protect people, WHO are they protecting in this instance?

It's not all police, everywhere, but it does happen. And it's really, unfortunately common.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 7:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh yes, and that whole showing off for the camera bit prolly had something to do with it too...
http://detnews.com/article/20100517/METRO/5170371/Crime-show-taped-Det
roit-raid-that-led-to-7-year-old-s-death

But at least the footage seems to be what put paid to the claim the old lady jumped him.

It was accidental, rather than intentional, but it still falls under criminal negligence and he should be held responsible, which he will *not* be, and everyone knows it - that is why they are so angry.

Quote:
Mitchell said civil rights activist the Rev. Al Sharpton will be in Detroit Wednesday for a rally to protest the shooting.

Gus is gonna be pissed, but so what, at this point we need enough leverage to forestall a riot, and if Sharpton can channel it into a protest or vigil instead, we *NEED* that right now.

-F

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Monday, May 17, 2010 7:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh they're in trouble for that too, but that's more the Townships and Ann Arbor especially, many of the speed limits around here are illegally low, and set up as speed traps to generate revenue deliberately, and since the cops get to keep a chunk of it, they're right with the plan - SOMEONE planted a bush on the I-94 South Service drive recently, and wouldn't you know it's RIGHT in front of the 35mph speed limit sign, oh how convenient - see, that spot is notorious anyway cause it drops from 50mph to 35mph right there, and every freakin day there's a cop or a couple, hiding out in the park entrance or behind the stores a little further down by the dumpsters, waiting...

But unavailable to, you know, actually do something - not that there's a lot to do as the townships around here that CUT police forces wound up with a reduction in crime overall, something that there's still a lot of argument about the causes of, and one township in particular raised the issue that they have four times the police force of any place in michigan with the same population, and the bastards are paid 150-170% more than anyone elses...
ETA: Mind you, this is a township with near-zero crime, okay?

And of course, when they brought it up, all the reps who did so got several tickets that week, one got fined over a zoning violation on his garage, and another is fighting the attempted seizure of his vehicle.

Whatever their *INTENT* is, they act like a gang around here, and the purse strings are the only control we have, so we're using it, and they're PISSED about it, you see ?

And really, seriously pissed off at me, cause of the end of the city council fiasco and the near obliteration of the corrupted police force, on top of me being the contract security company which is replacing their asses over in the west side of this county.

That's how it's been going, they bring us in, crime and disorder DROPS LIKE A ROCK, and stays there, while they see the cops who are supposed to have that effect busy lining thier pockets with ticket and seizure money, shaking down and abusing minorities, and generally acting like a street gang, and so they ask why are they paying two "police" forces, when they have one that is doing the job, and is accountable for it...

And then they start with the budget cuts, and the department threatened with them goes apeshit, starts with threats, blackmail, extortion, reveals their true colors, and still takes the budget cut (so far they've enraged, rather than intimidated, the townships) and then goes completely wacko about it resulting in MORE budget cuts...

So they're really, really angry right now, and various incidents all over, including the death of Huff, have made them pyschotic, and that behavior has caused some of the locals to fire on them, wounding at least one officer and resulting in a lot of non-reported gunfire around here, and the repeated incidents like the cop who got his ass shot over bangin some dudes wife, that ain't helpin neither, so this latest incident is a potential fuse lighter for one hell of an ungodly boom, okay ?

Seriously, the community doesn't see these guys as protection, they just don't, and they got cause to feel that way, sadly.

I am concerned cause if it *does* spark a riot, it's not like they'll go torch the police station, riots don't work that way - and our infrastructure is already so decayed that any further damage to it would put us in a really critical situation since all the money has been spent on war-war-war and cops who abuse instead of protecting.

I'm *ALSO* damn concerned about some of the locals wanting to elevate me to for-real evil overlord with private army (which is where the Huey Long comments are coming from, cause some other folk think I am encouraging this) as a check and balance against a corrupted local government and police force, and have even submitted my name (as a Democrat, WTF?!) to the local elections board as a candidate on the day before the deadline.

So yeah, it's a hell of a mess, and imma be busy today tryin to unfuck things, right-O ?

-F

Low Speed Limits Info.
http://detnews.com/article/20100427/METRO05/4270380/Many-speed-limits-
set-too-low
Funny thing, is that the STATE police, who don't get a chunk of the money, came in against them cause they cause accidents.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 9:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Looks like the 'accidental discharge' story may not hold up any better than the 'scuffle with grandma' one did.

Quote:
DETROIT (AP) - An attorney for the family of a 7-year-old girl slain during a weekend raid at their Detroit home says video footage contradicts the police department's version of events.

Geoffrey Fieger (FI-ger) said Monday that footage shot by the A&E crime-reality show "The First 48" shows that police fired into the home at least once after lobbing a flash grenade through a window.

http://wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=1958341

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, May 17, 2010 3:29 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

How bad is the situation collectively in Detroit?
Is it on a scale of rodent king or watts?

Meanwhile, anyone been following juarez?

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Monday, May 17, 2010 3:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, I am not sure whether I believe Fieger or not, cause he's had a couple credibility issues with us previously, especially in regard to Lady D, so imma hold off on taking him seriously.

He did get his hands on the tape though, likely from the same source we did.

We'll see, I wanna be 100% sure before I hang someone out to dry on something like this, cause unlike the goons in blue, I tend to prefer evidence in hand before I go all chops busting.

-F

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Monday, May 17, 2010 3:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
How bad is the situation collectively in Detroit?

Rodney king, I think you meant - but I am startin to wonder if you're Ipad has a sense of humor bordering on Mikeys, I tellya.

And yeah, it's bad, bad enough to make ME worried, and I was concerned enough before, dreading a potential fuse-lighter incident, in fact the exact quote from May 11th...

Quote:
All it's gonna take is one nervous cop capping a bystander and it'll be damn hard to forestall a riot, yanno ?

It's never a comfort being right when the things you're right about are so bloody awful.

-F

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Monday, May 17, 2010 4:53 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh yes, and that whole showing off for the camera bit prolly had something to do with it too...

I've been considering how much of the errors in dynamic entry, or the fact that it's used at all, have been due to the media love for it and the whole macho cop thing feeding off all the cop shows on TV.

Heard an interview the other day with the former D.C. police liaison for TV and movie companies. He noted that in real life, any cop who shoots someone, no matter how justified, gets sat down - without gun or badge - until a review board clears them. In TV shows, they just show up for work next day to shoot someone else.

Locally, we had the Prince George County cops raid the home of the Mayor of Berwyn Heights, Md. and gun down his two Black Labs because drug smugglers were sending packages of pot by UPS to random addresses and having local accomplices grab them off the porch before the homeowners could get to them. The P.G. cops intercepted one package, delivered it to the unsuspecting wife of the mayor, and then did the full-on swat raid(without a valid warrant), roughed up the mayor's mom, and killed his dogs. The P.G. chief of police said his officers were 'justified' in doing the raid and killing the dogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor's_residenc
e_drug_raid

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, May 17, 2010 6:44 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem

Rodent king, I didn't notice that until you commented on it. The thing is, and I nitpicking but the ipad is great overall. I love a computer you can take in the car, use on cell phone networks, etc. But if you turn autocorrect off, you have to hit keyboard page two and sometimes three for special characters. This wouldn't be nearly so bad if things like strophe or apostrophe as we call it weren't pn the next page, and what the hell is a strophe? Is that even a word?I could look it up

Anyway, I actually have a rodent king in a campaign I ran way back in the 80s which lead to a little thing I called skavens, which I stole most of them from ratlings anyway, but it's interesting to see how ideas develop and spread. Always give youriddas distinctive names, then you'll know when you see them again.

Yes, rod-ney king. iPad has a sick sense of humor. It still won't let me say Rodney without changing it to rodent.

Hey,jobs, some people are named, oh , nevermind

And yes, I agree on the camera, but I don't this it was just star struck play acting, tho could be. I put a long rant about that at a poor unsuspecting anthony over on john's thread.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 6:44 PM

DREAMTROVE

Double post.

A little tricky to serif you've submitted something. One of about ten weaknesses in the rower. I assume this will end in firefoxfor iPad, or a fuller version of opera.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 7:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I remember that, and quite bitterly, Geeze, being that the only difference is that for once they hit someone with enough political power to do something about it - PG county cops have a rep almost as bad as Detroit or Baltimore, and I can say from personal experience it's quite well deserved.

Back in 1984 they sicced a pair of K-9s on me for a lark, which is where my aversion to german shepard-lookin dogs come from, as that got ugly and retired one of the dogs cause they kept snapping on me when I tried to comply, and so I fought back, hard and bloody - I've got a pin in my ankle from the "stick time" dished out on me for it too, and we never did find out why the hell they did it, I was standing at the bus stop and the next thing I see is a pair of dogs headed for me, hell, the ONLY thing they tried to charge me with was assaulting an officer and resisting arrest, both quickly dropped when the question of WHY they set the dogs on me came up.

And I have truly, really, hated them ever since 1993 and the George Burdinsky case, since they were told where he was, and refused to even TRY to get a warrant till they had to outrun a lynch mob headed in that direction intent on doing the job themselves, which eventually lead me down the rabbithole of net based predators and their connections with other nefarious doings.

Where it not for Joe Goode, I'd have never in my life known or understood what the purpose of cops was, or that they *could* be a positive influence.

-F

PS. Yes, I know what Skaven are, I have a small strike force of Warhammer minatures thereof.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Upon review of the tape, it appears to be a flinch-fire from some nimrod already jacked up on adrenalin (and possible steroids) who had his finger on the damn trigger in violation of common sense and safety procedure, who reflexively snapped one off in response to the flashbang.

That's all too common, and it *also* tends (although thankfully not in this case) to lead to "contagious fire" resulting in a hail of lead.

Also, the police *may* have destroyed the original tape in an attempt to cover their ass, which means the intercept might well be all there is for the court to go on, and such an action would be especially damning in light of the bullshit story they are *still* trying to foist off - they persist in trying to lay blame to the grandmother despite the evidence.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100518/NEWS01/100518025/

Fieger has them by the short ones, and I damn well hope he thrashes them cause he's as concerned about things as I am, there was a smallish protest at the college the other day by the Michigan Emergency Committee Against War and Injustice, and they were outright calling the police terrorists, and I was a bit surprised that mosta the folk involved where a little more upscale, an older and very mixed crowd of middle class type people - local PD deployed a couple wagons and some bicycle bubbas, but neither side was really interested in a rumble, Ortiz, one of the crew from Detroit News, stopped by, but not finding anything of interest (they're pro-jackboot to an fault) I dunno if they even bothered to report on it.

This all comes on the heels of a decades long fracas between the locals and the police, a federal task force supposed to make em behave spending more time harrassing the community instead (primarily in dearborn) and a consistent history of ignoring the law, not clearing the backlog of complaints (several folk have resigned over such, since being assigned to it is the dept tossing them an anchor) the ongoing problem of pre-stacking juries with software proven to be anything but random, and a culture of corruption which has roots in every aspect of the government from the mayors office all the way down to the meter readers, all of which has escalated over the past year to a crisis point, helped along by the economic devastation and crumbling infrastructure.

It's all a pool of gasoline waiting for a match, and should the corrupt system do what it usually does, find the cops blameless and THEN charge the grandmother, that'll be the spark for sure.

I can only hope their knowledge of that is enough to force at least a little justice through, but it speaks ill of things that the threat of massive violence is what it takes to get any justice around here.

All of our clients are also nervous as hell, but our office has access to a freshwater lake and an independent power supply, so while not explicitly contracted for it, we can provide some relief even if things go completely to hell.

My greatest nightmore right now is a major riot causing loss of power, and a mini-katrina heavily escalated by the authorities trying to "help" while those supposed to be protecting the community go on a revenge-frenzy against it.

Makin that NOT HAPPEN is imperative, absolutely, but it's hard to get the potential consequences across to folk who are so terribly angry.

-Frem

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