Intelligent Design by PhoenixRose

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Intelligent Design

POSTED BY: PHOENIXROSE
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 8, 2010 10:59
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Friday, June 4, 2010 11:18 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Scientists have created life.

I'm watching a special about the scientists and the process. I was wondering how opinions on it ran, here. So, what do y'all think?

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 1:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I saw something about this a while ago, and quickly forgot about it.

It's definitely beyond the "cold fusion " level of discovery, correct ?

My first thought is that I'd have imagined we ( humanity ) would created A.I. ( not so much like Data or even C3PO, but maybe Hal ) sooner than we'd be able to create " life ". Kinda not so sure it's a good idea, to be honest. Going to have to revisit the story and think about it some more.

My second thought is... creating life with Jessica Alba, ( or attempting to ) is more desirable.

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:01 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

Scientists have created life.

Scientists may have created life, but don't forget, they've done it with materials that are already here.

The idea of God creating life is that he spoke the universe into existence from nothing.
If God "always was, is, and always will be"; he pre-dates our universe, which is expanding from the singularity of its creation. All that exists, exists because of Him, all that man does, he does with that provided by God.

Mike

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 4:44 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Even if we were to make life from raw chemicals, and that life were to find itself capable of reproduction without exposure to any other life or life material, it would be only a new industry discovered.

It is to be accepted that the children will try to adopt the skills of the father. First haltingly, and then with slow, painful progress and improvement. We are still in preschool, I think.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 6:23 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Part of me does have religious issues with this, the same provisions against playing with the tools of the divine which incline me against nuclear weapons, and maybe a teensy bit against nuclear power as well...

Not to mention concerns about the ethics of it's use when government or corporate money gets involved, and them folks start gettin.. ideas.

I'm curious though, albeit likely in the same fashion cats are, and with likely similar results.

Still, the idea of bioengineering replacing factory farming, unfucking birth defects, replacing toxic vaccines...

It has promise, and like any other powerful tool (the internet, for example) of itself it is morally neutral, for it is our use of it that would be for good or ill.

-Frem

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 11:50 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I have to say, I'm a little surprised that so few of you are making this about science. I did only ask for opinions, so it's all fair game, but this is definitely about science.
Yes, replacing factory farms. Yes, huge possible advances in medicine. Not just vaccines, but many other things.
One of the huge possibilities the lead scientist discussed was creating organisms that could consume petroleum. If they can figure out how to do that, the oil and plastic in the oceans is no longer a problem. Likewise, if they can design petroleum creators, no more fuel problems.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Even if we were to make life from raw chemicals, and that life were to find itself capable of reproduction without exposure to any other life ...

This is not an 'if' any more. They have succeeded in this.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 12:19 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"One of the huge possibilities the lead scientist discussed was creating organisms that could consume petroleum. If they can figure out how to do that, the oil and plastic in the oceans is no longer a problem."

Hello,

Careful, careful. I have petroleum in my car, under my feet, and on my keyboard.

Whether producing something or consuming something, any micro-organism we create better have a handful of off-switches and safeguards. Especially if it can reproduce itself, and thus be subject to mutation.

I was recently reading a book on evolution, and bacteria can learn to do surprising things in a surprisingly small amount of time.

I hope we raise our new children with great care.

As to this: "This is not an 'if' any more. They have succeeded in this."

Not yet. Not yet. One step closer, though. They still need the bacteria to make it work.

From: http://io9.com/5543843/scientists-create-artificial-life-+-synthetic-d
na-that-can-self+replicate

"Led by Craig Venter of the J. Craig Venter Institute (JCVI), the team of scientists combined two existing techniques to transplant synthetic DNA into a bacteria."

Maybe in the future they will be able to do it up from scratch.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:12 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Careful, careful. I have petroleum in my car, under my feet, and on my keyboard.

And spewing into the Gulf. And in the Pacific garbage patch, being ingested by small fish which gets eaten by bigger fish and birds, and just moves up the food chain, killing along the way.
I'm just sayin. This was a problem with no solution. Now the solution is merely difficult.
Petroleum could also be produced. In a lab. With no need to drill into anything. I think that would be pretty cool.

Quote:
Whether producing something or consuming something, any micro-organism we create better have a handful of off-switches and safeguards.

Well, duh. C'mon, Anthony, do you think this group of genius scientists wouldn't know that? If they can figure out the gene codes for life forms that can consume carbon and petroleum, they can certainly figure out how to build in a self-destruct. The self-destruct will probably be what they get working first.

Quote:

Not yet. Not yet. One step closer, though. They still need the bacteria to make it work.

They need the shell. The DNA does the rest of the work. The DNA they created did reproduce on its own. So any successful RNA or DNA sequence they can make, it can become a viable organism.

It will likely be years before this has viable applications. Cleaning up the oceans is probably decades away. But now, the possibility exists. It didn't exist a couple years ago. There are probably a million other possibilities that haven't even been thought of yet. I can't really describe how exciting I find the possibilities, and how important I think this is.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:16 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Well, duh. C'mon, Anthony, do you think this group of genius scientists wouldn't know that? If they can figure out the gene codes for life forms that can consume carbon and petroleum, they can certainly figure out how to build in a self-destruct. The self-destruct will probably be what they get working first.

Oh, sweet, sweet Rose, be ye not so naive. Just the gusher under the Gulf should show you; sometimes scientists are so busy focusing on the MAKING that they forget to pay attention to the UNMAKING.

And thus were a million sci-fi movies born...

Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:22 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Well, duh. C'mon, Anthony, do you think this group of genius scientists wouldn't know that? If they can figure out the gene codes for life forms that can consume carbon and petroleum, they can certainly figure out how to build in a self-destruct. The self-destruct will probably be what they get working first."

Hello,

Doubtless, the possibilities are limited only by our imagination.

I'm sure scientists know they should have a self-destruct. I'm sure they'll implement one. What I'm not sure is whether the bacterium produced will make an evolutionary leap to sidestep it.

When they were developing the A-bomb, a few of the scientists were afraid it would ignite the atmosphere and burn it away. There was no danger of that.

But this stuff? This stuff *can* infect the globe. Careful, careful. I liked that chaos theorist in Jurassic Park. In the first movie, he made a lot of poignant observations.

I'm not saying don't develop this stuff. I just hope they hold it with the same reverence and trepidation I have every time I touch a weapon.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:26 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Well, actually Niki, they're already thinking about how to make things self-destruct. Yeah, their focus is on disease and cancer cells, but there's plenty of unmaking ideas bouncing around.
It might sound like science fiction, but I'm betting these guys also grew up watching those sci-fi films about the madness of the creation gone wrong.
Also, if they cure cancer? Dude, think of the research grants that would generate.

ETA: The process is slow and painstaking. Even if they didn't want to be careful (which they do) they would pretty much have to be. I don't think this is a bad thing, of course. It's good they have to take their time and make sure it's all good. If things start to mutate in the lab, they'll know it before anyone else can even see it, and they'll go back to the proverbial drawing board on whatever problem they were trying to solve.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:38 PM

DREAMTROVE

To avoid being redundant, what Frem said, and I'll just add this to I'd: I have no problem with the creation of life which does not fuck with the existing living earth, but were a bunch of irresponsible amateurs, so that's not going to happen.

If we could set up a lab on the moon or something, then I think it could be a grand experiment.

More pragmatically, I worry about creating self replicating simple molecules, like prions. If you set such a thing lose on the gulf spill, you set it lose on the ocean. Everything in the ocean is made of oil, at least to some degree, that's what living things are made of, so anything which can eat free hydrocarbons on in the gulf can potentially wolf down small plankton or even rip holes larger animals.

I don't think we have the skill to defeat nature, but every attempt we make to change the oil itself is just going to make matters worse. Chemical dispersants? I thought the oil was sitting nicely on the surface to be boomed by someone who wasn't incompetent and lazy.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2010 5:21 AM

MALACHITE

Quote:
Even if we were to make life from raw chemicals, and that life were to find itself capable of reproduction without exposure to any other life or life material, it would be only a new industry discovered.

It is to be accepted that the children will try to adopt the skills of the father. First haltingly, and then with slow, painful progress and improvement. We are still in preschool, I think. --Anthony

My sentiments exactly, but you said them so much better.

Phoenix, you stated we had made life from raw chemicals. I was under the impression that they created the DNA from raw chemicals (eta: to clarify -- they created the DNA from nucleotides and created an entire genome using that DNA), but still had to use the natural machinery from a cell to make it work (eg they didn't create a DNA polymerase from scratch and then fold it properly, they didn't create a mitochondrion, ribosomes, cell membrane etc.) They had to integrate the genome they had made into an already living/existing cell, which using the machinery it already had, was able to self replicate. Am I mistaken in this? (ETA: If I am understanding properly, this is not creating life from scratch, but this is still an amazing (and frightening?)accomplishment as scientists are now able to create their own new cell types using preexisting machinery, and, once their cell type gets going, it will even make its own machinery).

ETA: More thoughts. It doesn't appear that scientists have created life from non life. They have created life from living things. But, now that this is reality, they can create new life forms. I think I'm a bit frightened by this because, at a scientist's whim, they can create some new life form. Evolution for that life form is very fast (ie, when a scientist wants to change it, he can). This is in direct contrast to human evolution which is very slow. Do we really want to be messing with things that can evolve faster than we do? I'm sort of getting a Terminator vibe right now... (Humans creating something they can't keep up with...)

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Tuesday, June 8, 2010 10:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

DT,

Quote:
To avoid being redundant, what Frem said, and I'll just add this to I'd: I have no problem with the creation of life which does not fuck with the existing living earth, but were a bunch of irresponsible amateurs, so that's not going to happen.

I agree completely; in fact, we've shown over and over that we do exactly the OPPOSITE, in trying to mold the world to our convenience, rather than live within reasonable boundaries.

Quote:
If you set such a thing lose on the gulf spill, you set it lose on the ocean

A concept we don't seem to have grasped as of yet, which applies to everything.

I heard something on the Daily Showthat relates to the title, if not the discussion, of this thread. Morgan Freeman (sigh...) was talking about a TV project he's doing that deals with outer space. He said that although they understand many things now, there is still a ton of stuff they don't understand, like what happened to MAKE the Big Bang and what there was before it. He said scientists call it "the God factor"--"Whatever scientists don't know, they call the God Factor". I found that fascinating--sure, I think it's their way of saying "we haven't figured that out yet, once we do, we'll stop calling it that", but it shows that even scientists "aren't sure"...

It's a really great interview...but then given it's Morgan Freeman, that's expected: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-june-2-2010/morgan-freeman

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