Hitting Kids with a Stick by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hitting Kids with a Stick

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, August 5, 2010 17:27
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Thursday, August 5, 2010 5:15 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/08/05/corporal.punishment/index.html?hp
t=Sbin

Hello,

Paddling was discontinued in Palm Springs Elementary shortly after my graduation from that school. I had assumed that the practice ended as part of a nationwide reformation, but apparently that's not the case.

I was surprised to learn that schools still paddle children in parts of the U.S.

I was equally surprised to hear that some educators consider paddling the only effective means to control children. I am reminded of Firefly.

"I like smackin' 'em."

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 6:14 AM

BYTEMITE

There are definitely things that do constitute physical abuse when adults use hitting/smacking as an incentive or correction to the behaviour of children. Paddling and spanking is one of them.

And Frem's right that it's kind of creepy when someone thinks to administer a proper paddling/spanking, that the kid has to pull down their pants. That's humiliation, and... Well, I can see why he says it's weird, even if I can't explain myself well. Even just having one's hands contact with someone else's backside in our culture is sexualized, which is why the sports slap is quickly going out of style.

I can also see how the power of physical correction sometimes only works when parents and authority figures are intimidating, and how it might break a child and teach them to comply with a moral authority against their own judgment.

And you don't want parents who smack kids just because they get angry.

I'm not sure all physical contact is necessarily traumatic, if it's low-key. Other animals will on occasion hit their young. Not hard, really more like a nudge, not intended to hurt them, but they do. And just once, not repeatedly.

Even among kids the same age. One makes a bad joke or suggestion. It's pretty natural for the other kid to give the first a flat look, then reach around and bop them a little on the back of the head. Other mammals, particularly dogs, cats, and primates do something similar. Other species might as well, but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.

I guess the question is if something like that escalates into violence intended to cause pain, or if it still constitutes bullying. It might depend on the people involved and the particular situation.

Hitting to hurt, even "for your own good" teaches it's okay to hurt. Another problem I think is the way we teach our kids to turn on each other from a young age, false blame or as a distraction to avoid punishment, because it teaches kids it's okay to throw other people to the wolves. Neither one is acceptable, and a lot to blame for the way people treat people nowadays.

If you have a punishment, it shouldn't be so bad that it discourages someone to owning up to what they did wrong out of guilt. If they feel they can admit to things on their conscience, and you can direct them in such a way they can try to fix what they did, that's how you raise people to be responsible and honorable. Making people shameless and guiltless over what they do to other people because it's the only way to get ahead makes a society of backstabbing sociopaths.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 6:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I myself was only spanked twice in my life- both times by my father, and never by the school. The threat was always there, but it never materialized. I did not fully understand as a child that the probable reason for this was a lack of consent by my parents.

I vividly remember the incidents of spanking. You might call them traumatic. I certainly felt traumatized at the time. My father is not a violent man, so to see him moved to striking me was a searing surprise burned into my brain.

The first time I was spanked, it was after I loudly misbehaved at a Denny's. My father asked me if I'd prefer my spanking right away, or at home. I chose 'at home' hoping he might forget. He didn't. It wasn't much of a spanking, but it was a frightful event (likely because of its rarity.)

The second time I was spanked, it was when I was sharing a bathroom with my sister. We were both brushing our teeth. I felt my sister was using up too much space, and so I bumped her intentionally into the wall. I swear my father materialized with superhuman speed. I don't remember the actual spanking, but I do remember the fiery anger with which it was delivered. I never did anything that might possibly hurt my sister after that day.

For my own part, as a parent, I never much cared for the idea of striking a child who could understand words. I did restrain my child periodically, and restrict their movements, but the only time I used what might be considered a 'strike' was when my son was very young, and reaching to do something harmful.

I can't imagine authorizing a school official to strike my child. Perhaps I have a deep lack of trust in school officials. It's a possible residue from my youth. I feel a suspicion that any such authority would be misused by the people who hold power over my son's life while he is within the school walls.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 7:02 AM

BYTEMITE

Yeah, discipline should be left to the parents.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 7:13 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Holy cow, you didn't know, Anthony ?

Hell, I mentioned Jordan Riak enough times ya ought to have, but no sense fussin about that, hereyago.
http://www.nospank.net/

Quote:
“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”

Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.

Hell, banning the practice of pounding your kids into compliance is one primary REASON Sweden is about fifteen years ahead of us in social, mental and emotional development, and you can thank the belated Alice Miller for most of that, cause she connected the dots between that kind of so-called "parenting" and social/political violence on an epidemic scale.
http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php

Just remember, all the bullshit excuses people shovel to justify beating children, were once offered to excuse beating your slaves, or beating your wife, and they are no more valid now than they ever were.

What disgusts me the worst, is that people take a child of strong will and spirit, and in their attempt to crush it out (See Also: Dobson, Black Pedagogy) they use violence, and more violence, and finally it reaches a point where the child is either large enough, strong enough, or tough enough, that it doesn't WORK any more - and said child winds up in juvie justice, a hellcamp, or a mental facility - and what do others say, what is their judgement ?

That the parent WASN'T ABUSIVE ENOUGH!
That not ENOUGH violence was used, not often enough!

Go on, try to tell me this is not outright fucking insane, and don't even get me started on the slime that cloak this as what amounts to a form of ritualized abuse (cause it is, when they're punished for being "sinful and wicked" whether they've actually DONE anything or not!) in religious excuses rooted in a bloody violent deathcult masquerading as englightenment.

I have a unique style of punishment, which is actually kinda-half stolen from the concept of interrogation, as you may recall I consider going hands-on to be a failure, yes ?

Normally any "punishment" I might throw is generally rectifying the error, making it right, making amends to those wronged, restorative justice, rather than retribution - but on occasion, when faced with knowing, blatant, and intentional wrongdoing...

Well, I tell em, lemme think about it, I'll get back to you, all in good time...
Believe me, they'll do worse to themselves fretting about it than you ever could, AND they internalize the lesson fully, cause during that time it's themselves they must face and answer to, and this is very important for teaching them self-respect.

And I let that chew on em a while, eventually chucking some minor stumbling block under em when they need or want something from me.
"Oh, well normally yes, but remember when you..."
My nephew in particular DREADS this, I tell him to lemme think on it and he's like NOOoooo! - and then starts offering reperations or some form of repentance immediately.

And it works, but it's also a matter of earning a childs respect, which no one mostly bothers anymore, but if you have it, if you EARNED it, one stern, disapproving look is worth more than any violence from a source the child does not respect - the girl I built the dollhouse for, her mother can threaten, spank, ground her, doesn't budge her stubborn daughter not one damn bit.
But all I gotta do is LOOK at that girl, in a stern and disapproving "You have failed me" kinda way, and she self-corrects immediately...

I find it ironic that many of the parents I know, their ultimate threat is to call me and make the kid explain themselves to me, which is also useful to nudge the parents over why this thing or that is so bloody important to be done RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW, and make them aware of their own control/ego issues getting in the way of their judgement.

But no, I won't strike a kid, nor will I talk down to em like a friggin pet, use abusive language or yell at them - you might get compliance... for a little while, while your LOOKING, when you're paying attention, and every second that you're not they're honing their blades for revenge on you and your whole fucked up society...

And I cannot say we do not deserve it - not one man, not one hundred, not even a thousand, can undo the malice and abusve of an entire society no matter how hard they try - but perhaps by teaching children it does not HAVE to be that way, we can turn the tide.

The fact most people forget, is that Crazy Eddie usually WINS.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 7:28 AM

BYTEMITE

Hmm, I guess I couldn't imagine a parent seriously using a dope slap on a kid for actual disciplinary purposes.

Though I'll dope slap people around me my age or older if they're asking for it.

And yeah, talking is better, and so are "fix-it" punishments when they're not too harsh.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 7:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Meh, I made it utterly, ABUNDANTLY clear, once it became known exactly who the uncle of my sisters children was...
(Ah the benefits of reputation, twenty fuckin years and it's still local legend, and mostly distorted and inflated BS by now...)

That ANY school official laying hand to any one of those kids in a violent or punitive fashion, had better run for the hills if I find out about it, cause hell or high water I'll be there within ten hours, and woe unto them, because at that point imma get all biblical about it...

So, despite the school in question not giving a rats ass about parental consent, the administration at both local and state level has a specific hands-off policy for those kids under the provisions of Force Majeure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure
Since, by their own policy, beating up kids (even to the point of them needing medical care!) does not constitute wrongdoing, and my wrath is gonna be unpredictable, irrevocable and unstoppable.

Were they willing to negotiate, I woulda, but since they wanted to make it a question of force, well then, force it is, and I made damn sure to bring sufficient threat of it to make em knuckle under - all the while pointing out that this is the WRONG lesson to be teaching children.

This is, mind you, the same bastard who called me a "terrorist" for mocking, then subverting, his schools surveillence system and allowing the students and parents access to it - to which I pointed out it was HIM using force and fear tactics against children, not me.

Always offended me, even as a kid, that children have no "voice", no rights, and it was one of the things that lead to the PROTECT initiative.
http://www.protect.org/about/mission
Which is currently mopping the floor with USDOJ and their pathetic excuses and platitudes, Ms. Weeks is there in person, with support staff.

But before there was PROTECT there was the iron fist of VI - and yes, I freely admit our methods were questionable, and I make no excuses for it, nor claim that such means were in any way justified - and if force and fear is the game our society wishes to visit upon children, there *are* those who are willing and capable of visiting it right back.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 7:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Physical punishment doesn't work--it might seem to work short term or specifically, but all it does is create resentment and/or fear.

I was never spanked. Mom hit me a few times, but she was always complaining that dad never administered punishment. Finally, with a sign, he went to punish me for stealing some money off his desk (coins) and mom screamed at him.

He proceeded to sit on his bed, slap his knee and say "get over here". I laughed my head off and left, didn't come back until dinner time. It was never mentioned again and he never tried again.

I don't believe in corporal punishment of any kind. I slapped Jeff a couple of times--and I think it's more frustration than intimidation when parents lash out or punish physically; certainly it was for me. I apologized both times and had a talk with him. Didn't do much good, but it was his dad to whom he was looking, for both praise and punishment.

Jim's form of "punishment" was verbal and silent avoidance (which did more harm than good), and he actually disavowed Jeff as his son a couple of times when Jeff did particularly awful things. It shocked me and I was angry about it, but Jim could never deal with some of the things Jeff did, it was just outside his ability to comprehend.

He was also quick with the words; twice he told me he couldn't love me, once because I wasn't "good enough with the customers"...I never forgot that. To tell someone you don't love them, or disavow a child, for any reason is awful, but because I wasn't good enough with the customers??? Yeesh.

Thank GAWD he's changed the last five years, this is mostly the guy I thought I hooked up with in the first place! He's a peach now, and gets past his anger real quickly, which is a blessing. He's also real close with Jeff and they talk on the phone a lot, for which I'm grateful. Only took thirty years...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 8:38 AM

CANTTAKESKY

I like this site too:

http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/manifesto.html

------
"Learning is the human activity that least needs manipulation by others. Most learning is not the result of instruction. It is rather the result of unhampered participation in a meaningful activity."

- Ivan Illich

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 2:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

A topic close to my heart. I've had this conversation umpteen times on the net and get quite frustrated at the responses that generally come out ie " I got hit when I was a kid and it made ME behave" etc etc.

I agree with you all. Hitting a child teaches that its okay to physically hurt someone you love and that pain is an acceptable tool of teaching, both premises I strongly reject. All the research demonstrates that people - young and old - learn better when we are in a positive, supportive, nurturing environment. I think that people often equate no hitting with no rules or consequences, when often it is the opposite. Households that use hitting as a punishment are often struggling to keep the kids on track and the hitting is often the adult, out of control, lashing out at the easiest target - a vulnerable child.

It wasn't so longer ago that a man was able to hit his wife, if she "deserved it" and in the western world, we've mostly (legally) moved on from that concept. I hope we do it soon with kids as well.

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 4:09 PM

DICKCHENEY

Nobody with a heart could hit a child.

Let me do it.

Go Fuck Yourself!

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Thursday, August 5, 2010 5:27 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I myself was only spanked twice in my life- both times by my father

Me too, but I put a hardcover book in the seat of my pants the second time. Payback was a bitch, but endurable.

Bush & Cheney must have gotten WHIPPED!!!
And liked it.....

The laughing Chrisisall

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