Okay, this is a group of mostly intelligent, educated people, so I’m sure the majority of us understand biodiversity to a degree. But it came up recentl..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

On biodiversity

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, September 13, 2010 08:16
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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 11:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, this is a group of mostly intelligent, educated people, so I’m sure the majority of us understand biodiversity to a degree. But it came up recently and I wanted to offer a synopsis (yes, I know it’s long, but it’s the best I could edit it down to from Wikipedia) on the subject. How much do you know about how important biodiversity is to us humans? Leaving aside esthetics, leisure and cultural activity and getting down to the meat and bones of the importance of biodiversity. I’ll bet most of us don’t know as much as we thought...
Quote:

Biodiversity is the degree of variation of life forms within a given ecosystem, biome, or on an entire planet. Biodiversity is one measure of the health of biological systems. Life on Earth today consists of many millions of distinct biological species. Biologists most often define biodiversity as the "totality of genes, species, and ecosystems of a region". A complex relationship exists among the different diversity levels. Identifying one level of diversity in a group of organisms does not necessarily indicate its relationship with other types of diversities. All types of diversity are broadly linked and a numerical study investigating the link between tetrapod (terrestrial vertebrates) taxonomic and ecological diversity shows a very close correlation between the two.

The existence of a "global carrying capacity", limiting the amount of life that can live at once, is debated, as is the question of whether such a limit would also cap the number of species. Changes in diversity are guided by a first-order positive feedback (more ancestors, more descendants) and/or a negative feedback arising from resource limitation.

Most biologists agree that the period since human emergence is part of a new mass extinction, named the Holocene extinction event, caused primarily by the impact humans are having on the environment. It has been argued that the present rate of extinction is sufficient to eliminate most species on the planet Earth within 100 years.

Biodiversity supports a number of natural ecosystem processes and services. Some ecosystem services that benefit society are air quality, climate (e.g., CO2 sequestration), water purification, pollination, and prevention of erosion.

Since the stone age, species loss has accelerated above the prior rate, driven by human activity. The exact rate is uncertain, but it has been estimated that species are now being lost at a rate approximately 100 times as fast as is typical in the fossil record, or perhaps as high as 10,000 times as fast. Land is being transformed from wilderness into agricultural, mining, lumbering and urban areas for humans.

The reservoir of genetic traits present in wild varieties and traditionally grown landraces is extremely important in improving crop performance. Important crops, such as the potato, banana and coffee, are often derived from only a few genetic strains. Improvements in crop species over the last 250 years have been largely due to harnessing genes from wild varieties and species. Interbreeding crops strains with different beneficial traits has resulted in more than doubling crop production in the last 50 years as a result of the Green Revolution.

Crop diversity is also necessary to help the system recover when the dominant cultivar is attacked by a disease or predator:

--The Irish potato blight of 1846 was a major factor in the deaths of one million people and the emigration of another million. It was the result of planting only two potato varieties, both of which proved to be vulnerable.

--When rice grassy stunt virus struck rice fields from Indonesia to India in the 1970s, 6,273 varieties were tested for resistance. Only one was resistant, an Indian variety, and known to science only since 1966. This variety formed a hybrid with other varieties and is now widely grown.

--Coffee rust attacked coffee plantations in Sri Lanka, Brazil, and Central America in 1970. A resistant variety was found in Ethiopia. Although the diseases are themselves a form of biodiversity.

--Monoculture was a contributing factor to several agricultural disasters, including the European wine industry collapse in the late 19th century, and the US Southern Corn Leaf Blight epidemic of 1970.

Although about 80 percent of humans' food supply comes from just 20 kinds of plants, humans use at least 40,000 species. Many people depend on these species for their food, shelter, and clothing. Earth's surviving biodiversity provides as little-tapped resources for increasing the range of food and other products suitable for human use, although the present extinction rate shrinks that potential

Biodiversity's relevance to human health is becoming an international political issue, as scientific evidence builds on the global health implications of biodiversity loss. This issue is closely linked with the issue of climate change, as many of the anticipated health risks of climate change are associated with changes in biodiversity (e.g. changes in populations and distribution of disease vectors, scarcity of fresh water, impacts on agricultural biodiversity and food resources etc.) Some of the health issues influenced by biodiversity include dietary health and nutrition security, infectious diseases, medical science and medicinal resources, social and psychological health.

One of the key health issues associated with biodiversity is that of drug discovery and the availability of medicinal resources. A significant proportion of drugs are derived, directly or indirectly, from biological sources; At least 50% of the pharmaceutical compounds on the US market are derived from compounds found in plants, animals, and microorganisms, while about 80% of the world population depends on medicines from nature (used in either modern or traditional medical practice) for primary healthcare.

Moreover, only a tiny proportion of the total diversity of wild species has been investigated for medical potential. Through the field of bionics, considerable advancement has occurred which would not have occurred without rich biodiversity. It has been argued that the decline in output from the pharmaceutical sector since the mid-1980s can be attributed to a move away from natural product exploration ("bioprospecting") in favor of genomics and synthetic chemistry, neither of which have yielded the expected breakthroughs; meanwhile, natural products have a long history of supporting significant economic and health innovation.

A wide range of industrial materials derive directly from biological resources. These include building materials, fibers, dyes, rubber and oil. Further research into employing materials from other organisms is likely to improve product cost and quality. Biodiversity is also important to the security of resources such as water quantity and quality, timber, paper and fibre, food and medical resources. As a result, biodiversity loss is increasingly recognized as a significant risk factor in business development and a threat to long term economic sustainability.

Biodiversity provides many ecosystem services that are often not readily visible. It plays a part in regulating the chemistry of our atmosphere and water supply. Biodiversity is directly involved in water purification, recycling nutrients and providing fertile soils. Experiments with controlled environments have shown that humans cannot easily build ecosystems to support human needs; for example insect pollination cannot be mimicked, and that activity alone represents tens of billions of dollars in ecosystem services per year to humankind. Ecosystem stability is also positively related to biodiversity, protecting them ecosystem services from disruption by extreme weather or human exploitation.

Jared Diamond describes an "Evil Quartet" of habitat destruction, overkill, introduced species, and secondary extensions.] Edward O. Wilson prefers the acronym HIPPO, standing for Habitat destruction, Invasive species, Pollution, Human Over Population, and Overharvesting. The most authoritative classification in use today is IUCN’s Classification of Direct Threats.

Rates of decline in biodiversity in this sixth mass extinction match or exceed rates of loss in the five previous mass extinction events recorded in the fossil record. Loss of biodiversity results in the loss of natural capital that supplies ecosystem goods and services. The economic value of 17 ecosystem services for the entire biosphere (calculated in 1997) has an estimated average value of US$ 33 trillion (1012) per year!

We humans have finally recognized the necessity of biodiversity, and there are many things being done to minimize our effects on it. But much more needs to be done; just selfishly, we humans NEED biodiversity to continue to exist. Just something to keep in mind, and why some of us freaked out about the Deepwater Horizon; that rea will change; how much and how disasterously, only time will tell. But the biodiversity will be affected, and we might regret some of what we lose.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 4:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well I can at least offer some decent news on that front, Niki.

Remember that group which hired a bunch of my people to drive trucks for em cause they were pulling large samples of as-yet-uncontaminated wildlife ?

Well, according to them they're all doing well and depending on how well the cleanup goes they may be looking at re-introduction soon, which of course means they will need trucks goin the other way, but also that each of certain specie will have a decent core sample of individuals not exposed to the toxins, which sounds good, although it twists my brain a bit since this kinda thing is a little over the limits of my scientific understanding since imma psych specialist, not bio.

I did wanna ask you something about birds though, which I think got lost in the shuffle and certain assholes endless hostility - during the cleanup of the local spill up here, I was asked to use my wildlife-calming trick on birds, you see...

When they pick em up, they don't clean em right away, and they like, hold em overnight or something, during which they lose a lot of em, and from my understanding they freak themselves out to death or something ?

I don't really understand that, and was hopin you could explain it to me - cause my lil trick, it only takes a minute or so, but once done, it's almost a given THAT bird is gonna make it, but still it has to be done individually and it's kinda stressful in a mental sense, made all the worse since I kept having to run back over to the spill and chase off well-meaning idiots who didn't seem to have any clue how bloody toxic that crap is, so it was all really frustrating and I didn't manage to get any understanding of WHY, which might be helpful to know.

Hell, I don't even like mosta them damn birds, they're friggin obnoxious, but I did feel sorry for em, they looked so pathetic.

Anyhow, what makes em drop dead like that, heart rate, overstress, what ?
Cause if I know, I might be able to refine that trick or even teach it to others who have the knack, and that'd be a right useful thing.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 5:03 PM

CHRISISALL


Biodiversity is over-rated. We need white rice, white fish, white onions and white people.
The rest is bio-trash.




The Neo-Con Chrisisall


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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:25 AM

KANEMAN


Man can live in a cave and do just fine. Ask the Muslims how much biodiversity they have in that fucking sand they live in. A helluva lot less than those brown-skin fucks swinging on vines in the jungles of south America. Now ask yourself. Who has a better life? Who is more developed? Answer....The sand niggars despite having far less "biodiversity"....whoda thunk it?


Fucking hippies and this nature shit......

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 3:17 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Biodiversity is over-rated. We need white rice, white fish, white onions and white people.


You forgot mayonnaise!





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Thursday, September 9, 2010 4:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Man can live in a cave and do just fine. Ask the Muslims how much biodiversity they have in that fucking sand they live in. A helluva lot less than those brown-skin fucks swinging on vines in the jungles of south America. Now ask yourself. Who has a better life? Who is more developed?


If you mean in the sense of being able to fend off European invasion, maybe. Mayan and Incan cultures were pretty advanced in ways we haven't fully explored yet. Or at least they were before they got the hell trounced out of them, moved into the jungle and started living as hunters and gatherers.

For people of the middle east desert, the land provides them some defensive advantages that a jungle doesn't. You can burn a jungle down. You can't burn down a desert. There's also a cultural hardiness (and aggressiveness) that can come from the harshness of the desert, and not from a jungle environment. Small pox was also a factor.

The people of the middle east are doing a good job of killing themselves off, aside from the pointless in-fighting, because overgrazing and bad agriculture practice has turned a lot of the region into an alkaline dustbowl. Those guys in the jungle can last out a long time against the modern world simply because they have readily available food, provided slash and burn doesn't drive them extinct too. And they're not killing themselves in land, resource, and religious wars (though they used to, when European colonists arrived).

I say South American tribes are less developed but probably have the better quality of life.

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 9:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, you asked a question needing a long answer, but I'll try to give it. To begin with, it's not a matter of sudden death from heart attack or something, it's more complex than that:

Bear in mind that the birds in question are already exhausted and stressed...nobody knows for how long...before they are immobile enough to be captured. Thus all of what is described below has already happened to them, not to mention dehydration and quite possibly lack of food.

The procedure you talked about doesn't help because ANY handling by humans, or even their presence, increases stress. For a physiological explanation, here's some information as to why, whether "calmed" or not (which they're not, by any presence of humans):
Quote:

When a bird experiences stress, either physically or emotionally, its metabolic response is to activate the sympathetic nervous system. This is a component of the autonomic nervous system that prepares the body for action during the fight-or-flight response.

Some of the physiological changes that take place are increased sugar and fats into the bloodstream, the production of more adrenaline, cortisol, and glucagon into the blood, a decrease in digestive function, increased blood pressure, heartbeat, breathing rate, muscle tension and, thus, the creation of more energy. Corticosterone is the main hormone produced by birds in response to stress. It causes many changes in behavior and physiology, helping the bird to cope with stressful stimuli.

Stress may also manifest inward to one of the organ systems, such as the nervous system, circulatory, or digestive system. Stress increases the metabolism of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. There is an increased excretion of amino acids, potassium, and phosphorus and a decreased storage of calcium.

All birds carry yeast, bacterial and viral cells but, under healthy conditions, they remain in small numbers and harmless. However, at stressful times, when the immune system is weakened, these opportunistic microorganisms may proliferate and birds then become more vulnerable to the development of an infection.

So they don't "just up and die" (as a rabbit might), they've already had all this working on their systems for some time, and, weakened as they already are, may already be dying when they're picked up.

As to IBRRC's methods, they take all the above into account and, knowing that, you'll see why they do what they do:
Quote:

All wild animals stress easily in captivity and oiled birds typically suffer stress from the effects of the oil, capture and transport. Before they can be washed they must be stabilized or the additional stress of the wash process could kill them. Stabilizing most oil-affected animals requires medical treatments under veterinary supervision and intensive supportive care for at least 48 hours.

When a bird arrives at the center, a thorough physical exam determines the condition of the bird and the degree of oiling. Frequently, oiled birds are debilitated either by the toxic effects of ingesting oil, or by exhaustion/starvation. The oil may cover only a small patch, or the bird may be totally soaked in oil.

Immediately following its initial examination, it is fed a rehydration solution through a tube inserted into its stomach. The solution treats dehydration commonly seen in oiled aquatic birds, which can be life threatening, absorbs digested oil from the birds digestive tract, and flushes out the birds system.

Preliminary treatment and stabilization helps the bird regain its strength before the cleaning process begins. The bird is discouraged from preening itself and ingesting oil by being kept in a warm, quiet environment until it becomes alert and responsive, and ultimately, ready to be washed. An oiled bird is not able to thermo regulate their internal body temperature, so it is stabilized in a warm environment and monitored closely for signs of hypo- and hyperthermia. The bird is constantly monitored for stress, dehydration and disease, and is given intensive supportive nutrition and hydration therapy for at least two days or until it is strong enough to withstand the cleaning procedure.

So essentially they do what they can to stabilize the bird's internal organs; if it's too late, the bird would have died from the cleaning procedure anyway.

LONG term, stress hormones have been shown to impair immune functions, and increase susceptibility to diseases. When a wild bird is already weakened by disease or injury, then is picked up by a human (the biggest predator they fear), the stress hormones go way up. We lost a fair number of birds with only minor injuries at Wildcare—their systems were essentially just scared into working against their survival. Rescue alone, in some species, can be what pushes them over the brink. Things have been at work for some time before they can even BE rescued.

The same is true HUGELY of rabbits...stress can kill them even easier than birds. Different species of birds react differently to stress of any kind, so some have a better chance of survival...but any bird that can be rescued has to already be injured (who have the best chance) or weakened.

Long-term survival of baby birds who have been stressed is also a worry. Exposure to stress in young birds affects the way they react to stress when adult. Exposure to stressful events soon after birth has significant effects on a range of physiological responses later in life. Direct post-natal exposure to raised stress hormone levels can have long-term consequences for birds’ physiological stress responses. If a bird is exposed to stress early in life, for example through bad weather conditions or lack of food, this has implications for the way it will react to situations throughout its life. Since they’ve taken in many chicks from abandoned nests, there’s no way of predicting how this will affect them in later life.

IBRRC has some hopeful information on the ability to rehabilitate and release the pellies in the gulf:
Quote:

Pelicans, like penguins, can tolerate the stress of rehabilitation much better than birds like loons and murres for example (both of which species tend to rarely even see humans). One recent example was a brown pelican, oiled and rehabilitated, during the American Trader spill in 1990 in Southern California. This bird was sighted still alive in Newport Beach earlier this year, 20 years on, and is considered one of the oldest brown pelicans ever recorded.

While it's impossible to predict the future, these are very healthy and strong birds and have a good chance at surviving the rehabilitation process. The majority of these birds are handling the stress of oiling, washing and rehabilitation extremely well, as expected. Over 300 of them have been cleaned and are in outside aviaries at this time getting ready for release. Brown pelicans typically have a high survival rate in oil spills when they are captured early on and given the appropriate care, as has happened here to date.

Some say the birds should just be destroyed, but
Quote:

Recent studies indicate that birds can be successfully rehabilitated and returned to the wild, where many survive for years and breed.

The papers cited by opponents of oiled bird rehabilitation tend to rely on anecdotal band returns (meaning there is no daily tracking method for individuals released and no control groups observed). These surveys are misleading because they fail to consider some important variables: the protocols used to care for the birds in question, the experience of the organization caring for the oiled birds and basic things like how the bird’s health and water proofing were assessed prior to release.

Given IBRRC are masters at rehabilitation, they give the birds the best chance of survival and release into the wild. There they can help breed new populations, which are badly needed; the pellies in the Gulf were virtually extinct but came back; they’ll come back from this, too, with the help of IBRRC and other organizations.

Sorry it's so long, but I wanted to give you everything I can.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, September 9, 2010 9:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to what Byte responded; right on target. Also, there is biodiversity all over the globe, and tho' there is MUCH more (like tons!) in tropical ecosystems, there is diversity nonetheless. Soem tribes live off tubers in the sane, from whence they get a lot of their liquid.

The concept that one becomes more developed by "living in a cave" is a joke. Survival depends on food, weather, and so many other factors that it's ridiculous to think anyone could live in a cave nowadays. Those doing so obtain food from outsides sources (which are affected by biodiversity), they don't survive on their own. They have clothes created elsewhere and a support system from the outside. It's an absurd comment.

I do agree with Byte, and even moreso in that people who live in rainforest ecocystems (either tropical, subtropical or, like ourse here in CA, temperate rainforest) live with much more biodiversity and thus, have a better chance of survival as long as that biodiversity remains somewhat stable.

I, too, suspect they have a better quality of life, except that the Western "civilizations" are impacting it negatively and may destroy it eventually.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, September 9, 2010 10:10 AM

PERFESSERGEE



Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:


I did wanna ask you something about birds though, which I think got lost in the shuffle and certain assholes endless hostility - during the cleanup of the local spill up here, I was asked to use my wildlife-calming trick on birds, you see...

When they pick em up, they don't clean em right away, and they like, hold em overnight or something, during which they lose a lot of em, and from my understanding they freak themselves out to death or something ?

I don't really understand that, and was hopin you could explain it to me - cause my lil trick, it only takes a minute or so, but once done, it's almost a given THAT bird is gonna make it, but still it has to be done individually and it's kinda stressful in a mental sense, made all the worse since I kept having to run back over to the spill and chase off well-meaning idiots who didn't seem to have any clue how bloody toxic that crap is, so it was all really frustrating and I didn't manage to get any understanding of WHY, which might be helpful to know.

Hell, I don't even like mosta them damn birds, they're friggin obnoxious, but I did feel sorry for em, they looked so pathetic.

Anyhow, what makes em drop dead like that, heart rate, overstress, what ?
Cause if I know, I might be able to refine that trick or even teach it to others who have the knack, and that'd be a right useful thing.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.



Frem,

Perhaps I can offer some insight here, as your question falls within one of my research areas. The birds are probably dying of a combination of factors. The oil itself (especially the lightweight volatile portion) is quite toxic and can cause destruction of blood cells (a condition called hemolytic anemia). This alone can be fatal, but on top of that the process of capturing and housing wild animals is highly stressful, and all critters with backbones stress out in the same way - by secreting adrenal hormones - and with the same negative consequences. It's not adrenaline that does the harm, it's another hormone called corticosterone. Prolonged secretion of that hormone can cause heart problems and suppress the immune system, so the birds are getting a double whammy. In truth, a heavily oiled bird has very little chance of survival, even if washed quickly. They usually try to clean themselves and end up eating the oil, which greatly worsens the toxicity problem. The best bet is to wash 'em fast and get them out of captivity, but even moderate spills usually overwhelm local response capability and animals get housed under highly stressful conditions (pretty much any form of captivity is highly stressful for free-living wild animals). Actually, it's probably a triple whammy, 'cause they usually won't eat when they're stressed and run out of fat reserves very quickly. Oil and wildlife are a very bad combination! But, anything you can do to calm the animals down is likely to be helpful.



perfessergee

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 10:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Damn, yer good Perfesser...I had to look a lot of that up, and you condensed it nicely.

Response by IBRRC has been huge--they're well financed, trained and geared up for this sort of thing and do it worldwide regularly. As you have no doubt seen by my response, they know the best way to minimize the problems to the birds and stabilizing them before cleaning (which, as you said, in a severely-impacted bird is enough to cause death). I'm really proud of them; tho' there are no doubt many, many birds who die before they can get to them and many people who try to help but don't know what they're doing, IBRRC is having a high success rate.

They recognize the "not eating" thing, too...and do just as we did at Marine Mammal Center, since seals and sea lions won't eat when rescued either (tho' they respond quicker to starting to eat on their own again than birds do). They make a mash and tube feed those strong enough for the procedure to keep the body fat up...ours, we used to call "fish mash", and gawd, it was awful. I made a lot of it, and along with defrosting the fish that went into it, I ended up with almost as many scales as the fish! IBRRC's is obviously different for birds, but I watched the process and it's identical...easier to find the right "hole" for pellies, too, than seals!

You have to be careful when force feeding; just like intubating humans in reverse...you have to be careful to get the right valve, or you pour it into their lungs--just as they have to find the right valve or they'd force air into human stomachs when they intubate. I admit I was a bit envious when I watched, seeing how much easier it is to get the right valve on pellies!

Thanx, Perfesser; while I know Frem will read the whole long thing, for others your explanation is much more concise and better!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, September 9, 2010 11:22 AM

BYTEMITE


I'd hazard a guess and say that all the agitation of a distressed, oil covered bird suddenly registers as less important when "oh no! predator has me!"

Animals will initially struggle at first, but once they adjust to the concept of "predator holding me. not being eaten?" they seem to calm down.

I'm not sure why this would continue to be a calming influence even when the animals are then introduced to an unfamiliar environment, but perhaps the reaction to "predator!" and the associated relief of "not eaten" is just that strong.

I've noticed this myself, Frem.

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 1:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Hmm, interesting, and thank you, Byte for that additional bit of insight cause I think that just clicked.

I cannot tell you why, but they do NOT react to me like other humans, most (not all, but most) wildlife does not display a predator-reaction to me whatever, and it's ironic that you mention the rabbits cause we have a plethora of bunnies at site three who would, absolutely, let me touch them if I wanted to - but I am not gonna leave human scent marks on em and put them at risk that way.

In fact, I had to kind of encourage one to move along last night cause I was afraid of accidently steppin on him, he was followin me cause he's one of Fivvers progeny which knows damn well anything that might eat them won't come to close to me.

For the birds, they weren't in too bad shape, a lot of em, but they were all wired out, it's really hard to describe but I could tell their nervous system was all afire and there's like, a connection kinda thing goin on there, like feeding your own calm to them, and they start to wind down and settle, hard to put into words how it works, but the "calmed" birds had a much, MUCH higher survival rate than the ones I didn't get to.

Given what y'all have said about nutrition, if a similar situation comes up again, I might try feedin em if they're responsive to it - heaven knows the damn raccoons around here WISH I would, that still wigs people out, that they'll come up out of the blue and beg at me, which when I am on duty gets em exactly freaking nowhere, but one of em got me on the way to the car last weekend, so I went back in and got a ritz cracker and gave it to him, I'm such a sucker, and they know it.

He kinda gave me a snarky look for being so stingy too, but I didn't wanna encourage him too much, it was just that the sad-eye thing he was doin was just breakin me, smart lil creep.

Had a woodchuck come up from the docks last night to check me out too, he came up while I was punching Key5, took a couple good sniffs near my pants leg and ambled off into the bushes, guess he's just checkin out the neighborhood.

When I refer to the local wildlife as my auxilaries, the new residents think I am kiddin, but the older ones know better - just by watching their responses I can tell not only when someone is out and about, but even have a general idea of where.

Anyhows, thanks for the info - I'm also gonna round up and interrogate the only real Shaman I know if I can find him, cause he might know something useful too, provided we don't get into another spat again cause there's a serious personality clash there due to our inherent patronages being opposed.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 1:15 PM

BYTEMITE

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:13 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, I'm well aware of your connection with animals, I love reading about it and it makes me smile. I wish I had it!

"Bandits" (as we call 'coons), however, will easily tame and come right up to ANYONE for goodies once they've learned they can get 'em. They're not stupid!

I warn you, if you fed that one, he may well "tell" the others...I swear, sometimes I can't understand how one will do something one day, then three more will do it the next!

The rabbits, however, were a surprise. You've mentioned it before and it surprised me then, but not very much since I already knew about you and animals. They are among THE most skittish of wild animals, but Jim's seen them when he runs (early-early morning) and they don't seem bothered by him, as long as he doesn't stop running. A couple of "run away" from him by running in exactly the same direction as he is! Rabbits, unlike bandits, are NOT smart!

As to birds...fluids. If you can get any fluids down them, it's much more helpful than food. If you can get any REEEELY fluid nutrients, that's even better, but they suffer from dehydration faster than anything, especially oiled birds. Also helps their systems flush out any toxins that made them sick. If you can get that down 'em, you give 'em tons more chance at survival. Food is secondary. If you can calm them enough to get fluids in, more power to you!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:27 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I think animals respond to some people better than others because such people have unconsiously or consciously understand the cues regarding the non verbal communication of an animal...much underestimated by many people.

Pheremones might also explain a lot. Perhaps you don't 'smell' like a predator, Frem.

I'm sure there are a lot of cues that animals, including ourselves, use when determining whether another is dangerous. Have you ever had that bad feeling about another person based on nothing in particular that turned out to be right? I'm pretty sure we can all, to one degree or another sense, danger in others. Animals can too. I'm sure ther eis a thesis to be written in there somehow.

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:30 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I have a feeling many HAVE been written, Magons, and I agree wholeheartedly. Just look at Cesar Millan!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:30 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'd hazard a guess and say that all the agitation of a distressed, oil covered bird suddenly registers as less important when "oh no! predator has me!"

Animals will initially struggle at first, but once they adjust to the concept of "predator holding me. not being eaten?" they seem to calm down.

I'm not sure why this would continue to be a calming influence even when the animals are then introduced to an unfamiliar environment, but perhaps the reaction to "predator!" and the associated relief of "not eaten" is just that strong.

I've noticed this myself, Frem.


I think they have just given up the struggle at that stage. You hope that nature has provided some sort of sedative so that being eaten alive (as is the fate of many prey) isn't too painful.

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:34 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oops, I think Magons nailed that one. Many captured animals "shut down" after their initial resistance, she's right.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, September 9, 2010 3:15 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Oops, I think Magons nailed that one. Many captured animals "shut down" after their initial resistance, she's right.




It's shock. All animals, including ourselves, can go into shock after or during trauma, and one of the symptoms is dissociation - that kind of blank staring withdrawal.

A lot of animals will die of shock when handled or put into an unknown situation.

Oh and we'll all be eating Soylent Green is the current trends continue...


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Thursday, September 9, 2010 4:08 PM

BYTEMITE


Perhaps, but the times I'm thinking of they continued to move and look around, just became less agitated.

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 5:47 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I have a feeling many HAVE been written, Magons, and I agree wholeheartedly. Just look at Cesar Millan!




My wife is about half convinced that I'm going to be mauled to death by some stray dog one day, but I just don't see it happening. Whatever it is, pheromones, visual cues, body language... I've got it. She didn't believe I was a "dog whisperer" until there was an aggressive Dobie in our yard one day, and I just walked out and sat in the grass while he faced off towards me and barked and snarled, trying to warn me off and let me know that he was a dangerous character. I wasn't buying it; I sat down, averted my eyes, lowered my head, and he came over and sat in my lap (more like ON my lap, since he was a good 85 pounds!) and started licking my face and chewing on my ears. At that point, we were fast friends, played a few games (if you can get your head under the dog's head and neck, you win - it's play, but it's also a dominance game played among the pack), he let me put a leash on him, get him some food, and find his owners and take him home.

A lot of it is just paying attention, and not "threatening" the dog in any way. Making eye contact is a challenge. Showing teeth is a threat. Averting your eyes and not squaring off against the dog tells him that not only are you not a threat to him, but you're also not threatened BY him, which tends to put them at ease and make them more curious than scared. And of course, dogs being so eager to please, if you turn away from them just a bit, while NOT looking at them, they INSTANTLY want and crave your attention, because they want to make you happy.



AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Thursday, September 9, 2010 8:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh very funny, Byte - more like,
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotGoodWithPeople
Type 2 of course, side order of THIS.


(This is why you don't piss off faeries and suchlike)

As for the racoons, I don't see it changing their behavior one way or the other, since they already try to shake me down every chance they get, even the newbies, it's the first damn thing they do, cause they reaaaaly WANT my Starlight Mints - one of the newbies is wanderin around near my place right now, didn't see him but I heard him steppin the dry leaves (which is how I know he's a newbie) so he's checkin the place out, good luck to him, cause most of em wind up roadkill in less than a week.

And then there's Bummer, who won't beg off no one, but he's smart enough to use tools, VERY rare for a raccoon, he'll use a stick to hook the bait out of the live traps since he looooves bolonga, and that is what they bait the traps with, oh, and did I mention he's fekkin HUGE as well as shaggy ?
He can't get his fat ass IN the traps even if he was dumb enough to fall for one.

He has some kinda deal goin on with the squirrels - which are the provenence of the maintenance guy, they follow him around cause he chucks em various seeds and nuts all the time, likely a good cause of why they're so damn fat, but they seem to act as sentries for Bummers den as well since he's dug in at the bottom of their favorite trees.

Me and the squirrels don't get along, they like to wind up my cats through the window, which, if it gets on my nerves too much, results in me starting to pull the door open, and then hauling ass up a tree all quick like - Kallista couldn't catch one, even as fat as they are, but Puppy ?
Shit, they'd be DEAD, Puppy doesn't "play" with her prey, doesn't screw around, and has that spine-snapping chomp thing down to a fekkin science...
Which, is why I don't ACTUALLY let her out there, cause coming back with a decapitated lardass squirrel would be seriously gross and likely piss off the maintenance guy just a lil bit.

The bunnies now, that all started earlier when we had a bunny population problem, which got resolved when the owl came back and brought his girlfriend and they ate most of em, save for the one I had been calling up to that point stupid-bunny for hanging around me, but then renamed Fivver cause he WAS smart, and capable of making a cognitive connection most bunnies never manage.

Most of this generation of em is his progeny, and they hang around my rounds patterns and me outta habit, rather than intellect, cause that dimwit by the laundry room actually plowed into my leg last round, stupid idjit.

They do that dart-stop-sentry-stealth movement pattern, and he went to dart, and be both zigged in the same direction and the dim lil critter bounces offa my prosthetic leg, then hunkers down a couple feet away looking all mortified in that freeze-and-pretend-to-be-invisible thing they do, with me cussin him for a fool, of course.

As for the birds, I am pretty sure they'd let me bottle feed em or something, so that sounds like a workable idea - albeit I still consider em pretty damn obnoxious, mind you, although not as bad as Llamas, I HATE them, and the feeling is entirely mutual.

Magons, I think some small part of it is that my body language is also a little different than most humans, and on top of it when dealing with an animal I understand enough of THEIR body language to emulate what can be emulated by a human, this to an almost freaky degree between me and cats especially.

Mikey, that wouldn't work for me, I have to handle dogs a little differently.
You see, while I am quite fond of them, I am not *as* fond of em as I am other critters, and happen to also be somewhat mistrustful of them thanks to a few bad experiences.

Friendly dog ? no problem, love em to death, play with em all day, spoil em rotten - but if you look real close and careful you'll notice no dog, no matter how friendly, ever, EVER gets a free shot at my back, and here's why.

I've met too many dogs who were submissive, even friendly, and I mean like multiple visits and over periods of time, who, as soon as I looked fully away, or worse, turned away from them, ROWR-SNAP! - they turn into fucking Cujo on me.. and it's kinda hard on a friendship delivering a straight up beat down on someones pet in exchange for a severe flesh wound to the outer thigh, which could have been MUCH worse if my reflexes were not so damn fast as they are - THAT problem ain't never gonna happen again, cause when that dog catches wind of me he hides upstairs.

I think maybe part of it is cause they see me as an Alpha, or potential Alpha, and therefore something of a threat regardless, therefore when encountering an aggressive dog, using that method WOULD get me bit, and quickly.

So when they wanna throw the challenge, I meet it, loom over, eyes wide, teeth bared, complete with lip-quivering stern growl of the "back-that-shit-up-NOW" kind, in combination with a mix of that animal connection and force of personality tricks, and it usually settles matters right then and there.

For the extreme hardcases, a simple ROE - yeah, talk all ya want, I got more patience and stubborn jackassery and we can do this all day.
Snap at me, get rabbit punched.
Try that circle the prey shit (common with hunting dogs) and you get tripped.
DARE go for a flank-snap, get kicked, savagely.
(this is a real, serious berserk button with me, as bad as slappin a kid in the face right in front of me, I'll blow a total fuckin gasket over it.)

Only one ever went more than three rounds was a PG county K-9, and he didn't get the better of the engagement.

Mostly though, I get on quite well with canine fellows, and at worst they'll give me some teeth, get the overlord-glare, and go right back to friendly, it's gotta be cause they perceive me as Alpha or something, but I couldn't tellya.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 6:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mike; well done...you watch Millan? Just what he does with territorial dogs, because most of them are just that, and some reacting out of fear. BUT, there are dogs that doesn't work with, bear that in mind, 'cuz you COULD be mauled if you read the signs wrong.

But on the whole, you're absolutely right, and if people just smartened up about how to deal with animals who read us like books, there'd be less fear of dogs who bark--and especially of breeds like dobies (the biggest wooses in the dog kingdom actually) and pits (who make fantastic, loving pets, by the way). We have a lot of Pits in Marin, since it's an animal place and there are lots needing homes; Pit Bull and Geyhound rescue are BIG here.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, September 10, 2010 9:15 AM

KANEMAN


I know there is biodiversity all over the globe...I've made the argument that it is exactly that which has made America great...what counts is what people do with it.

One of the coolest things in my lifetime. Is seeing, over the last ten years, the unbelivable return of the American bald-eagle up and down the connecticut river valley. Started as one nesting pair in Suffield and has spread up and down the river. On my lake we have Great blue harreans, hawks, owls, falcons, etc...But seeing the huge white head and tail cruising down too grab a fish is fantastic......

I can't wait till there is enough so I can shoot one .....Joking.

Now these bears are getting out of control though. I think it has to do with my generation not being the hunters our parents and grandparents were...not that it is a bad thing, however they are everwhere....Just saw a 400 lb male two nights back....fucking huge....And the deer forget it. Cars are dinged all over CT...the fucking things are everywhere...no-one hunts anymore

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Friday, September 10, 2010 3:56 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


One of my oldest friends was someone I met through the mail--yes, back then SNAIL MAIL; I saw a column by her in the newspaper--she was a great writer!--and wrote my appreciation to her. She responded and we wrote back and forth for the next two decades, and she and her son visited me here in CA.

Her commitment was to a strip of land which was bald eagle nesting grounds, which the local Illinois politicians wanted to run a freeway through (which went nowhere, pure pork barrel). She fought long and hard; had a several-hundred-year-old tree in her family home cut down, she and her young son run off the road, her horse killed, blackballed from being able to get a job, and eventually was shot herself. But she never gave up. She died recently--illness--and the world is a poorer place without her. Her name was Robin. There are bald eagles everywhere who are alive and breeding today who would not have been without her. It's people like these who make it possible for biodiversitiy to have even a fighting chance.

We have all those things here, too...except bald eagles. There's a lake down South that's a nesting ground, but we just got our first pair of golden eagles, and hope for more. I have loved the occasional stories of the peregrines re-introduced in the City...everyone knows where their nests are (one on the Bay Bridge!), and they're starting to be enough of them to help with the "feathered rat" (pigeon) problem!

Do you have Kites? I LOVE watching Kites dive for fish, and our Osprey population has skyrocketed in recent years. I love Osprey...well, I'm a nut for all raptors, I might as well admit it. Even turkey vultures, which by the way make excellent pets.

I'm guessing everyone knows that Ben Franklin wanted our national bird to be the turkey, because in so many ways it is superior to the bald eagle, but of course turkeys aren't "dignified" so he was out-voted.

I do agree about the bears, tho'...we're waiting for them to show up here. Their population increases partly because they're foragers, and foraging human food is plentiful for foraging! I don't like bears, probably more than any other species and yes, I know it's a prejudice, but bears are unpredictable, and that makes me fear them more than any other predator. I shuddered at your remark about seeing one...NO THANK YOU!

The deer problem, you probably know, is a result of man depleting competing predators. There's a lot to be said about THAT!

We've had some problems with cougar lately (puma, mountain lion, mountain cat, catamount or panther, whatever it's called in each of your areas), who are returning to California after nearly being wiped out from hunting and ranchers. They've been taken off the Endangered Species list and there are movements to hunt them again. We've had one up on Mt. Tam for ages--he was a myth until people started getting photos--and now they're all over the place.

It's very special to me, the fact that America had more biodiversity than most other places, but we're in crisis now, due to pollution, ecosystem destruction and things like overfishing. The whole world has a problem, obviously, but America is my country and I don't want to lose any species.

I won't go on or I'd start prattling about wolves, my favorite subject and one very endangered...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, September 10, 2010 4:29 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'm sorry about your friend, Niki. It's amazing how threatened and violent the capitalist system becomes, with even a small challenge. Sounds like she had lots of guts.

I found myself bristling at your suggestion that America had more biodiversity than anywhere else. I don't think that statement is true, sorry. High levels of biodiversity exist the further away from the poles you are, and in areas where there is water..ie oceans, swamps, rivers etc. It is also dependant on levels of human habitation. The US may have had a high biodiversity because of those factors, but it would be on a par with other regions with similar charactersitics, and not as high as groups of islands near the tropics.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 6:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, since we're on the topic, I got nuzzled and ogled by a weeber last round, he even held still while I got a pic for ya.



Lil baby possum, no bigger than my hand, kinda cute for an overgrown fuzzy-rat, ya think ?

He/she likes me though.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:48 PM

KANEMAN


Well magonsdaughter, I meant compared to other countries. From coast to coast we take up a lot of space (lng and lat)..Have the icy waters of Maine and the desert, the great plains,and the Rockies, the bou of La, and the swamps of Florida, deltas, forests, old growth forests...I could go on forever...What I mean is we are not an island nation or an inter-continent country...We are a continent and have the biodiversity that made it possible to build the greatest nation this world has ever seen...Do you know America is the only nation on earth that can feed itself?...year round.....with no help from the outside. Canada can't do it, Russia can't do it, England can't do it...No other nation can do it. We can feed 350 million because of our size, climate, and biodiversity....And our women are fucking hot.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 9:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Biodiversity is over-rated. We need white rice, white fish, white onions and white people.


You forgot mayonnaise!


YEAH! bland white food for bland white people, and bland white people for bland white food!

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Friday, September 10, 2010 10:28 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Biodiversity is over-rated. We need white rice, white fish, white onions and white people.


You forgot mayonnaise!


YEAH! bland white food for bland white people, and bland white people for bland white food!

Obviously you've never had really good, organic, farm raised white people. They can be quite tasty.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, September 10, 2010 11:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Mmmm, free range amish... tasty....


-F

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 6:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, you skipped right over my "than many other places". I know other places have FAR more diversity, but (probably given how big we are) America had a good share, once. We had such a huge amount of diverse ecosystems, like Kane said. It's only BECAUSE we have so many different ecosystems that we could compete with other "nations" when it came to biodiversity.

On the other hand, you're right in that I misspoke; I should have written NORTH America, because that's what I read (wish I could find the article again, but I looked and a quick search didn't bring it up). When you look at it that way, "we" did have a wide variety of biodiversity. Sorry. My bad.

One could argue that America becoming "great" (especially so quickly) was also because of minerals, arable land, lack of development and a number of other factors. We were a "rich" land before we were a "rich" land; it's a shame we're busy squandering BOTH.

Things like irrigation and nuclear plants and other things have reduced our biodiversity in ways of which most of us aren't even aware. We may be aware of pollution, development, loss of habitat, "bio-invasion" (non-native species being introduced), etc., but there are many more ways in which our biodiversity is being affected than most of us realize.
Quote:

Agriculture and thermoelectric power generation account for about 80 percent of water withdrawals in North America. Irrigation is a particular threat. The Oglala Aquifer underneath the Great Plains has water resources equivalent to Lake Huron, but it is being depleted by irrigation faster than it can recharge.
Possum are adorable, Frem, there's no doubt about it. Had some close encounters myself, but given they're so damned slow (watched one "run" across a quiet street one day, had to giggle) and easily surprised into freezing in place, that one don't count. Tho' if he seeks you OUT, you get points.

You think we bland, white people don't need more than white rice, fish, onions and people (you forgot white BREAD, which many of us ARE), wait until you see what lack of biodiversity does to THOSE! (I know you were teasing, but some people actually DO think that way!)

By the way, even free-range Amish are pretty bland, from my experience. Evangelicals are too. No salt. Now if you want to talk about fried CAJUN, that's another matter. I'll let you know when I get back from the Gulf...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually I almost likely stepped on him, he'd come up to me while I was punching Key3 and started trying to chew on my shoelaces, so I felt a twitch and looked down and there he was, stickin his nose up my pants leg, and I was like "whaaaat?"

He appears to have been abandoned early by the mommy possum, who's likely seriously messed up about this one prolly being the sole survivor of the litter, something caused her to drop the pups too early, I've quietly buried three of em I found, cords still attached, so this guy is likely lucky to be alive, but also very much on his own, he looks a bit undernourished up close and I doubt the mother possum was very nurturing - I been watching her and her behavior for the last week has been erratic and very strange, so he's going to be facing a bit of a challenge, as she's moved on and left him to his own devices.

I did figure out where his lair was on the next round after, he picked it well, very concealed, defensible ground with a handy escape route so he's not likely to get eaten, but all of the food sources are defended by larger, more aggressive critters, hell, even the bunnies are bigger than him, and they're real pissy about their turf, as the raccoons learned to their peril.

I might cheat a bit, tonight I'll prolly grab one of them fallen apples and drop it near his lair, by picking it up at the stem and then shaking it till the stem snaps so I don't leave any human scents on it - which is all the help I can really spare the poor guy, since I try to interfere with nature around here as little as possible.

Speakin of cute lil critters, Huron Valley Humane Society is having a Kittyaplooza tomorrow, buy one, get one FREE!



Awwww!

We're of course, at kitty limit, but my Ex's original cat, "Lexi" (Lexington Demonica Voltaire) is in rough shape due to age, and I can feel her light fading, that's gonna crush her it is, though she'll try like hell to pretend otherwise, and caring for her four of the six does stress her out - but there's a couple residents imma go over there with and perhaps I can help them pick out a kitty that's compatible with em, provided I can pry it offa me, cause you KNOW they'll be all over me knowing what a sucker I am, meh.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:20 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Well magonsdaughter, I meant compared to other countries. From coast to coast we take up a lot of space (lng and lat)..Have the icy waters of Maine and the desert, the great plains,and the Rockies, the bou of La, and the swamps of Florida, deltas, forests, old growth forests...I could go on forever...What I mean is we are not an island nation or an inter-continent country...We are a continent and have the biodiversity that made it possible to build the greatest nation this world has ever seen...Do you know America is the only nation on earth that can feed itself?...year round.....with no help from the outside. Canada can't do it, Russia can't do it, England can't do it...No other nation can do it. We can feed 350 million because of our size, climate, and biodiversity....And our women are fucking hot.



So do you eat your women when things are tough?

Seriously, your posts make me puke they are so filled with self congratulatory egotistic tripe. Have you ever been anywhere else? Do you know anything about the rest of the world, other than it's 'not as good as we are' and 'full of people who hate us' -

You've got a big country with a lot of diverse habitats - that's true. It's also true that you displaced a helleva lot of people accumulating that aforesaid increadible richly resourced land mass - perhaps a little less hubris would make that easier to tolerate.

Remember that the long fought over area of land known as ' the fertile crescent' was said to be the cradle of civilisation, and is now an overpopulated, conflict riddled, ecologically damaged piece of real estate.

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:20 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Next....

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:43 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Magons, doesn't Australia feed itself? It's for sure the U.S. doesn't. Maybe the U.S. *CAN*, but it currently DOESN'T. Just go to the grocery store and see where the produce is coming from: everywhere but here, basically. Now go look at the seafood section. "Wild caught, product of China", "Imported from Chile", etc.

Where in the U.S. do they grow Folger's Coffee, anyway? Or cocoa? I'll grant you Hawaii grown pineapples and produces sugar, but most of ours come from elsewhere nowadays.


AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Saturday, September 11, 2010 4:03 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Frem, don't do that. Don't post up Kittypalooza vids when I'm considering adopting another kitten or two. I've got a happy détente going right now - two kitties, one dog, and everybody happy. Let's not muck it up! :)

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 5:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA




PATHETIC APE, OBEY YOUR NEW OVERLORDS!

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:49 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Magons, doesn't Australia feed itself? It's for sure the U.S. doesn't. Maybe the U.S. *CAN*, but it currently DOESN'T. Just go to the grocery store and see where the produce is coming from: everywhere but here, basically. Now go look at the seafood section. "Wild caught, product of China", "Imported from Chile", etc.

Where in the U.S. do they grow Folger's Coffee, anyway? Or cocoa? I'll grant you Hawaii grown pineapples and produces sugar, but most of ours come from elsewhere nowadays.



I'm pretty sure we could, but we don't either. We have a variety of habitats, from tropical, temperate through to desert...so we can grow a lot of diverse stuff, but we only have a population of 22 mill or thereabouts, and the debate is on about how many mouths we can supply with food - given water is scarcer on our continent than yours.

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 6:25 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Well magonsdaughter, I meant compared to other countries. From coast to coast we take up a lot of space (lng and lat)..Have the icy waters of Maine and the desert, the great plains,and the Rockies, the bou of La, and the swamps of Florida, deltas, forests, old growth forests...I could go on forever...What I mean is we are not an island nation or an inter-continent country...We are a continent and have the biodiversity that made it possible to build the greatest nation this world has ever seen...Do you know America is the only nation on earth that can feed itself?...year round.....with no help from the outside. Canada can't do it, Russia can't do it, England can't do it...No other nation can do it. We can feed 350 million because of our size, climate, and biodiversity....And our women are fucking hot.



So do you eat your women when things are tough?

Seriously, your posts make me puke they are so filled with self congratulatory egotistic tripe. Have you ever been anywhere else? Do you know anything about the rest of the world, other than it's 'not as good as we are' and 'full of people who hate us' -

You've got a big country with a lot of diverse habitats - that's true. It's also true that you displaced a helleva lot of people accumulating that aforesaid increadible richly resourced land mass - perhaps a little less hubris would make that easier to tolerate.

Remember that the long fought over area of land known as ' the fertile crescent' was said to be the cradle of civilisation, and is now an overpopulated, conflict riddled, ecologically damaged piece of real estate.



Not my fault people got displaced...it is what it is, and happened long before I was born. My reality is that I was born in the greatest nation humanity has ever known, I have no guilt about that. Don't be jealous you could always move here....Gotta go. Have two huge 2.5 inch rib-eyes on the grill. Football baby....real football.. Another American great. Have a lovely day somewhere not as lovely as where I am.


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Sunday, September 12, 2010 6:28 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Magons, doesn't Australia feed itself? It's for sure the U.S. doesn't. Maybe the U.S. *CAN*, but it currently DOESN'T. Just go to the grocery store and see where the produce is coming from: everywhere but here, basically. Now go look at the seafood section. "Wild caught, product of China", "Imported from Chile", etc.

Where in the U.S. do they grow Folger's Coffee, anyway? Or cocoa? I'll grant you Hawaii grown pineapples and produces sugar, but most of ours come from elsewhere nowadays.



I'm pretty sure we could, but we don't either. We have a variety of habitats, from tropical, temperate through to desert...so we can grow a lot of diverse stuff, but we only have a population of 22 mill or thereabouts, and the debate is on about how many mouths we can supply with food - given water is scarcer on our continent than yours.



Crap. Coffee? really. Try again Kwicko...you need to go to a better market if all you can get is wild caught fish from China..LOL....Or move to new england fag...lol

By the way we feed the world.....

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 6:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


So ADOPT ONE, Mike! Every beastie needs love; every human needs as many beasties around as they can manage to give THEM love!

Frem, help that little guy as much as you can, plese? He deserves to live, and having fought his way to this point, he deserves it even more.

But watch out for momma...the erratic behavior you're seeing could be an illness, the worst case of course being the Big R!

Our local (not Humane Society) tiny organization that lives on donations, spays and feeds ferals, and done a whole lotta other things, has a weekly set-up in the local PetCo for kitten adoptions, and Petco sets up a dog adoption fair every weekend, too. I can't go by. Can't have any cats (huskies!) or any more dogs, but if I could...in a flash.

As to our having always been the "greatest" nation, that's so untrue it would be funny if it weren't so incredibly ignorant and sad. Numerous civilizations were much bigger and finer in their time, and what we have is BUILT on almost every single one of them. Because we're young and have no sense of history, we think we're so great. But we're just lucky, in so many ways; the major one being that we're virtually impossible to invade and conquer, shich couldn't be said of all those previous civilizations who went so far and gave us so much.

You're welcome to live in your fantasy land, but it's not real. We're just the newest, and wouldn't be so "great" if we hadn't had every other great civilization, invention, discovery that came before us.

I'd like to believe in reincarnation, and that you'd come back the absolutely poorest beggar in the poorest section of any number of places, and it would help you learn from the folly of this life. But I'm not 100% convinced of it, which means you'll only get one chance, and you're well on your way to blowing it. IF there is reincarnation, your inability to learn anything from this life will come back to haunt you in the next. It's called "karma".

Grandiose statements mean absolutely nothing when faced with facts and history. Simple as that.

And yes, we send a lot of food around the world. But we also import a TON, and throw away perfectly good crops and food in the process. We are the most wasteful nation in the world, and our time will come. That much I KNOW without a doubt. We've squandered what our immigrant ancestors gave us, and I don't think we'll realize that enough to do anything about it before it's too late, unfortunately.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, September 12, 2010 11:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, I did drop an apple near his lair last night, which he apparently snatched and hauled back even if it was a quarter his size.

Found the mother late this morning, close ecounter with a car, sad to say, but no signs or evidence of rabies, hard to tell, but it looks like MBD from a prolonged bad diet, likely to have occured by proximity to humans and easy foraging as a result, or a well meaning human feeding her cat food over a period of time - possums are actually fairly resistant to the big R, and in the rare cases they catch that they usually go bellyup and die before becoming dangerous as the gestation triggers the play-dead reflex, which in short order results in actual expiration.

From the movement patterns I am pretty sure this little guy just fell off (they ride on the momma, sometimes), and she never went back to get him, so now it's up to him.

He'll prolly do ok, he's picked a very good spot for his lair, uncontested with access to water - it's foraging that'll be the tricky part, but possum are masters of it, seriously-opportunistic omnivores who can and will eat damn near anything.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 11:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, I know about riding mom, and they ARE great foragers. You're a good guy; will hold a good thought for the little fellah! The lair is vital to his survival, and if there's water close by, that's a biggie...

Sounds like he has a chance anyway.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:31 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Well magonsdaughter, I meant compared to other countries. From coast to coast we take up a lot of space (lng and lat)..Have the icy waters of Maine and the desert, the great plains,and the Rockies, the bou of La, and the swamps of Florida, deltas, forests, old growth forests...I could go on forever...What I mean is we are not an island nation or an inter-continent country...We are a continent and have the biodiversity that made it possible to build the greatest nation this world has ever seen...Do you know America is the only nation on earth that can feed itself?...year round.....with no help from the outside. Canada can't do it, Russia can't do it, England can't do it...No other nation can do it. We can feed 350 million because of our size, climate, and biodiversity....And our women are fucking hot.



So do you eat your women when things are tough?

Seriously, your posts make me puke they are so filled with self congratulatory egotistic tripe. Have you ever been anywhere else? Do you know anything about the rest of the world, other than it's 'not as good as we are' and 'full of people who hate us' -

You've got a big country with a lot of diverse habitats - that's true. It's also true that you displaced a helleva lot of people accumulating that aforesaid increadible richly resourced land mass - perhaps a little less hubris would make that easier to tolerate.

Remember that the long fought over area of land known as ' the fertile crescent' was said to be the cradle of civilisation, and is now an overpopulated, conflict riddled, ecologically damaged piece of real estate.



Not my fault people got displaced...it is what it is, and happened long before I was born. My reality is that I was born in the greatest nation humanity has ever known, I have no guilt about that. Don't be jealous you could always move here....Gotta go. Have two huge 2.5 inch rib-eyes on the grill. Football baby....real football.. Another American great. Have a lovely day somewhere not as lovely as where I am.



And just how big is your car?

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:15 PM

REENACT12321


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Biodiversity is over-rated. We need white rice, white fish, white onions and white people.


You forgot mayonnaise!


YEAH! bland white food for bland white people, and bland white people for bland white food!



Wait are we still talking about Americans? This sounds way more like Scandinavians.

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Monday, September 13, 2010 2:49 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Well magonsdaughter, I meant compared to other countries. From coast to coast we take up a lot of space (lng and lat)..Have the icy waters of Maine and the desert, the great plains,and the Rockies, the bou of La, and the swamps of Florida, deltas, forests, old growth forests...I could go on forever...What I mean is we are not an island nation or an inter-continent country...We are a continent and have the biodiversity that made it possible to build the greatest nation this world has ever seen...Do you know America is the only nation on earth that can feed itself?...year round.....with no help from the outside. Canada can't do it, Russia can't do it, England can't do it...No other nation can do it. We can feed 350 million because of our size, climate, and biodiversity....And our women are fucking hot.



So do you eat your women when things are tough?

Seriously, your posts make me puke they are so filled with self congratulatory egotistic tripe. Have you ever been anywhere else? Do you know anything about the rest of the world, other than it's 'not as good as we are' and 'full of people who hate us' -

You've got a big country with a lot of diverse habitats - that's true. It's also true that you displaced a helleva lot of people accumulating that aforesaid increadible richly resourced land mass - perhaps a little less hubris would make that easier to tolerate.

Remember that the long fought over area of land known as ' the fertile crescent' was said to be the cradle of civilisation, and is now an overpopulated, conflict riddled, ecologically damaged piece of real estate.



Not my fault people got displaced...it is what it is, and happened long before I was born. My reality is that I was born in the greatest nation humanity has ever known, I have no guilt about that. Don't be jealous you could always move here....Gotta go. Have two huge 2.5 inch rib-eyes on the grill. Football baby....real football.. Another American great. Have a lovely day somewhere not as lovely as where I am.



And just how big is your car?



Just big enough to fit a carraige full of groceries

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Monday, September 13, 2010 7:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What's a "carraige"? And you wouldn't get a straight answer anyway, so why ask? Nothing he ever says can be taken seriously, there have been so many lies, it's not worth bothering to ask a serious question (or was that serious?).


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, September 13, 2010 8:16 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

And just how big is your car?





He'll never get that.

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