REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

We Have Met The Enemy...

POSTED BY: OUT2THEBLACK
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:27
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Monday, November 15, 2010 5:12 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/14/gordon-duff-gladio-how-we-terr
orize-ourselves
/

"...The last time a bomb came into the US, the “terrorist” was personally seated on the plane by an airport security official working for an Israeli company. He was walked around inspections. Why search anyone at all under circumstances like that? The same company manages most of America’s airports too. Have we lost our minds here?"

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Monday, November 15, 2010 5:43 AM

DREAMTROVE


Thanks for the post. I thought this was obvious, it's the Orwellian Society, but there are some who still don't get it. The purpose, of course, is fear. Note that they don't even have to hide it, they call it terrorism, "war on terror." They mean "reign of terror."

It's like how our war is called the "New Global Conflict." A simple thesaurus turns that into "New World War" or if you prefer "World War Three." Our major candidates of both parties have been openly campaigning for WWIII, and the sheeple voted for it.

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Monday, November 15, 2010 5:49 AM

CANTTAKESKY


What I'd like to know is why anyone supports it at all. If you read people they interview in the media, they all go, "Oh, well. Better this than terrorism...."

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Monday, November 15, 2010 8:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


DT: Right on. Personally, I see the ramping up of fear more from the right than the left, but that may be because of what I experience from the MSM, not what happens behind the scenes.

CTTS: Prety obviously it's a way of keeping the fear going, and the idea that security measures are taken provides a false sense of safety...if they didn't go through the motions, fewer people would feel "safe" enough to fly (which some already do), ergo, drop in profits...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, November 15, 2010 8:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Thanks for the post. I thought this was obvious, it's the Orwellian Society, but there are some who still don't get it. The purpose, of course, is fear. Note that they don't even have to hide it, they call it terrorism, "war on terror." They mean "reign of terror."

It's like how our war is called the "New Global Conflict." A simple thesaurus turns that into "New World War" or if you prefer "World War Three." Our major candidates of both parties have been openly campaigning for WWIII, and the sheeple voted for it.



Of course. If you keep ramping up the inspections and detections, and bombs STILL magically keep getting through (even when they don't go off), then it proves that you need to keep ramping up the inspections and detections!

You know how you know you have too much freedom? You can still ask yourself if you have too much freedom. At a certain point, that won't even be a question you'd think of.

Today, airports. Tomorrow, your car. The day after, your workplace. A week from Thursday, your bedroom.

But think of how safe you'll be! Why, the only way we could guarantee you MORE safety would be to just go ahead and put you in solitary confinement. Hey! Now THERE'S an idea!

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, November 15, 2010 11:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

You know how you know you have too much freedom? You can still ask yourself if you have too much freedom. At a certain point, that won't even be a question you'd think of.


The extreme Left & extreme Right see nothing wrong with that.

"We offered the world ORDER!!!"


The laughing Chrisisall


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Monday, November 15, 2010 12:37 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

You know how you know you have too much freedom? You can still ask yourself if you have too much freedom. At a certain point, that won't even be a question you'd think of.


The extreme Left & extreme Right see nothing wrong with that.

"We offered the world ORDER!!!"


The laughing Chrisisall




They didn't "offer" the world order; they ORDERED the world order! :) And we seem to be their humble waiters...

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, November 15, 2010 1:06 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
they ORDERED the world order! :) And we seem to be their humble waiters...


With REALLY lousy tips. Tips WE owe THEM, to be a little bit more precise.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Monday, November 15, 2010 4:10 PM

DREAMTROVE


ETA: Actually, to everyone, even though this is a response to Niki's

You're still missing it.

TPTB are very clever. They've divided us into two groups, which are selected mostly by families, affected by education and religion, and the result is two sets of values.

The "left" is the "caring for the unfortunate" side. They see themselves as "caring" and their opposition as "uncaring." Liberalis=generous.

The "right" is the "keeping what we already have" side. They see themselves as caring about what we have, and see their opposition as wasting and destroying it. conservatas=keeping.

The left, the generous, are the givers, and the right, are the keepers.

If these are easily manipulated by upbringing, education, religion, politics and the media, then how come people are so clearly one or the other?

Because it is the nature of the system of TPTB to divide.

We're not naturally one or the other. We are both. My sister Jenny is a very liberal democrats. She is also in many ways the most socially and fiscally conservative person I know.
So, though I'd put her in a class with you, as in "defaulting to siding with the left"* but thinks the opposite of fiscal conservatism is idiocy.

* Defaults to, because no one always thinks this. Almost no one in the country sided with out political and justice leaders on the issue of Kelo vs. the City of New London. I'd say nearly 100% of the country was solidly behind people like Justice Thomas in his dissenting opinion. Why? Because sometimes your side is wrong, whichever side you're on.

So, if we're all a left/right combination, which we should be, since it's important to give so that we can all succeed, but it's also important to wreck the success that has already been gained, so how did we get so split in two?

They split us in two, with divisive wedge issues like abortion and gay marriage, but getting us to call the other side names, and to argue not about bad policy, but to nitpick bad policy and say "If only our team were running the bailouts, it would help industry, not fatcats" (Both sides say this repeatedly.) But more than that, they get us to care about issues, and they rule us through fear.

Once we are sided, they then allow us to shuffle ourselves into a happy place (FOX or MSNBC) where no one will ever disagree with our new found partisan opinions. Oh, sure, we think we've had them forever, but the one we argue today we picked up last week from our side.


So, Fear mongering on the left?!?!? How can it be?!?!?

Remember, the powers that be are not a group of morons. If they were, they wouldn't rule the world, would they? Sure, they were born into wealth and power, but in each generation, another 10,000 members of ruling families are born into power and they claw at each other like dogs for that power. Then they enslave the rest of us to do the work, and solve the problems.

So, first off, TPTB are collectively an elite which hails from many backgrounds, but they share things in common, like education. We have education*, but they have better education. In particular, they study models like the above.

*(I don't have an education because I only went to four years of grade school, but the rest of y'all are more or less educated)

TPTB understand the liberal drive and the conservative one.


Co2 is causing runaway greenhouse effect and the temperature of the Earth could be like that of Venus in fifty years!!!!!


What? I'm sorry. I wasn't listening to that channel. that must've been where they came in and wowed you with their science, lied to you about consensus, and drew erroneous conclusions intentionally based on faulty data, and then used common psych-op manipulation to get you to submit to the idea.

Instead, I was listening to this channel:

Everything we've worked for in America, our rule of law, our rights, our equalities and opportunities is about to be destroyed by Muslim terrorists and Mexican invaders!!!!!

Oh no. I better do something about border security. I know it will create a massive police force that might oppress me, but I'm afraid of Muslims and Mexicans. They'll destroy everything we've worked for.


You don't agree? Wait. What's that I hear?

NO!!! We need to institute a carbon cap. Sure, I know that cap and trade is a global tax that will be used to fund the economic takeover of the planet so they can enslave us while allowing corporations loopholes to pollute more, but I'm so afraid. I care about fuzzy animals and they're going to sink like polar bears!!!!!


Oh, that's what's playing over there. Huh. That's interesting, because it's not true. It was pretty bogus.


WHAT?!?!? No, you idiot you don't understand!!!!!


No, I understand, but what you're not getting is that WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE UNDER SHARIA LAW SOON. Women aren't going to vote, hell, they won't go to school, that is, if we still have voting and school!


HEY!!! That's bogus. I heard it on the blue channel that this was all nonsense and there were no muslims coming.


Oh no, you just don't understand.


Wingnut!


Commie!


Ah, now you're cooking.


It's the same day game played by the same damn team who have been studying for a century how to push the right buttons to get all the little monkeys to dance.



ETA:

Mike, spot on.

Chris: depends on your definition of extreme. I think the above illustrated are actually the normal left and right, and the far left and far right are meeting to form the polar opposite center of Ron Paul::Dennis Kucinich.

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Monday, November 15, 2010 5:51 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Today, airports. Tomorrow, your car. The day after, your workplace. A week from Thursday, your bedroom.

But think of how safe you'll be!

Now you're just being paranoid.

Terrorists have no reasons to get into our bedrooms. There will never be a need to make bedrooms secure.

(That was pretty good, Kwicko.)

DT: Your insights there were pretty good too. It's all a red herring, huh, not just to keep us from looking at the REAL problems but also to keep us from finding our REAL assets--each other.

----
Arrogant and proud of it.

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Monday, November 15, 2010 7:24 PM

DREAMTROVE


cts

well said

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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


DT: You missed what I said; I said "more", not that there wasn't both on both sides. I agree that they keep us "in line" by dividing us; what I was referring to mostly was recently, when the hate espoused by pundits, rally speakers, rally attendees and Fox News have been far more publicly hateful than what I've seen from the left.

But it's immaterial; I agree that TPTB do it for a reason and it benefits them. My only remark was that I've been seeing it MORE from the right...second amendment, the placards, etc.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, November 16, 2010 9:24 PM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

Open the other eye. You cannot see the insults which insult the right because you are not on the right. You tend to remark upon the insults which affect all humanity "asshole" etc. and those which effect the left "libtard" or those which effect a non partisan group "raghead" but you don't see, and often have used yourself things which offend the right.

If someone were to say "Racist wingnut teabaggers like Rand Paul and Ron Paul" Will hit offensive on several levels.

Someone said on one of those pundit shows, I don't remember, "The tea party sure has attracted the birthers and truthers"

Birthers and truthers belong in a pairing? That's offensive. If I don't accept that Osama bin Laden flew planes into the WTC just because Bush says so than I'm the same as someone who believes some head case from Moldova who claims Obama is a Kenyan because she failed to derail McCain on the grounds that he was a Panamanian?


See, all sorts of things can be offensive, but if you're not in the target range, you may not even see them.

"Neocon teabaggers" is another double attack: It's an offensive flawed grouping of two opposed camp, and it calls the latter suckers of balls.


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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Niki

Open the other eye. You cannot see the insults which insult the right because you are not on the right. You tend to remark upon the insults which affect all humanity "asshole" etc. and those which effect the left "libtard" or those which effect a non partisan group "raghead" but you don't see, and often have used yourself things which offend the right.

If someone were to say "Racist wingnut teabaggers like Rand Paul and Ron Paul" Will hit offensive on several levels.

Someone said on one of those pundit shows, I don't remember, "The tea party sure has attracted the birthers and truthers"

Birthers and truthers belong in a pairing? That's offensive. If I don't accept that Osama bin Laden flew planes into the WTC just because Bush says so than I'm the same as someone who believes some head case from Moldova who claims Obama is a Kenyan because she failed to derail McCain on the grounds that he was a Panamanian?


See, all sorts of things can be offensive, but if you're not in the target range, you may not even see them.

"Neocon teabaggers" is another double attack: It's an offensive flawed grouping of two opposed camp, and it calls the latter suckers of balls.




The "pairing" of "Birthers and Truthers" is in your mind only, I think. You HEARD it as a "pairing". If I were to say that Obama won in '08 because of the votes of Democrats and independents, I didn't just say that independents are all Democrats, did I? The guy listed two groups as having ties to the tea parties, not ties to each other; and it certainly seems to be a valid statement that both of those groups have largely gravitated towards that movement.

You make lots of hay about "neo-libs" and the like, and either you have both eyes closed, or you're deliberately trying to offend, right? I mean, that IS the claim you're making towards others here.

Also, I really think you're over-thinking your whole "Nazi" thing. Occam's razor says all else being equal, the simpler explanation is usually the correct one. Did you ever ask yourself how the word "National" is pronounced in German? It's not the way we say it - "Nah-shun-nel", but more like "Not-see-ah-nahl-en". So take the first two syllables - "Not-see", and you get to "Nazi" pretty quickly.

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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:39 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Birthers and truthers belong in a pairing?

I didn't even see birthers and truthers anywhere. Did I miss something?

----
Arrogant and proud of it.

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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 4:40 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It's in DT's response, about 2/3 of the way down.

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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 5:23 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Niki

Open the other eye. You cannot see the insults which insult the right because you are not on the right. You tend to remark upon the insults which affect all humanity "asshole" etc. and those which effect the left "libtard" or those which effect a non partisan group "raghead" but you don't see, and often have used yourself things which offend the right.

If someone were to say "Racist wingnut teabaggers like Rand Paul and Ron Paul" Will hit offensive on several levels.

Someone said on one of those pundit shows, I don't remember, "The tea party sure has attracted the birthers and truthers"

Birthers and truthers belong in a pairing? That's offensive. If I don't accept that Osama bin Laden flew planes into the WTC just because Bush says so than I'm the same as someone who believes some head case from Moldova who claims Obama is a Kenyan because she failed to derail McCain on the grounds that he was a Panamanian?


See, all sorts of things can be offensive, but if you're not in the target range, you may not even see them.

"Neocon teabaggers" is another double attack: It's an offensive flawed grouping of two opposed camp, and it calls the latter suckers of balls.




The "pairing" of "Birthers and Truthers" is in your mind only, I think. You HEARD it as a "pairing". If I were to say that Obama won in '08 because of the votes of Democrats and independents, I didn't just say that independents are all Democrats, did I? The guy listed two groups as having ties to the tea parties, not ties to each other; and it certainly seems to be a valid statement that both of those groups have largely gravitated towards that movement.

You make lots of hay about "neo-libs" and the like, and either you have both eyes closed, or you're deliberately trying to offend, right? I mean, that IS the claim you're making towards others here.

Also, I really think you're over-thinking your whole "Nazi" thing. Occam's razor says all else being equal, the simpler explanation is usually the correct one. Did you ever ask yourself how the word "National" is pronounced in German? It's not the way we say it - "Nah-shun-nel", but more like "Not-see-ah-nahl-en". So take the first two syllables - "Not-see", and you get to "Nazi" pretty quickly.




Mike

It was on one of those talk shows, someone said "Birthers and truthers" and everyone else agreed that they were a set of loons. It was unambiguous. But it was like CNN or some such garbage. It might have even been FOX.


Are you defending neolibs? WTF? Oh, I know, it contained the root word liberal. And you thought this applied to you.

I think that neoliberalism probably has zero friends on this board. Maybe Rap I'll start a thread just to see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Most people today when you say neolib would apply the term to the folks who started the IMF, World Bank and WTO. I'm pretty sure that they're responsible for the destruction of the planet, oppression of the third world, etc.

They can't technically be worst than neocons, because neocons are a subset. A neocon is a neolib, but a neolib is not a neocon, in the same sense that a banana is a fruit but a fruit is not nec. a banana. The thing is that I group them so that people will not fall into a partisan bias.

Really, you just posted a defense of the NWO. are you sure about that?



CTTS, it was on a dumb talk show, I was using it as an example of how MSM groups people to make associations which are irrational. It's like godwin, but not as strong.

The whole birther movement is run by an illegal alien from Moldova. She's insane. She wanted McCain to lose for some reason, so she started this. She's actually insane. Then when McCain won the GOP primary, she wouldn't give up. Then McCain lost the election, and she kept at it. That's because she has followers.



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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 7:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Really, you just posted a defense of the NWO. are you sure about that?


At this point, you're just digging in and being contrarian. *WHERE* did I post a defense of the NWO? Because I said people could get offended if you use the term "neo-lib" to refer to lefties?

So tell me, were you defending the NWO when you said it was offensive to call teabaggers "teabaggers"? ;)

And you're missing the point completely, too. I'm pointing out that YOU are as guilty of using language and terms that SOMEONE will find as offensive as you claim others of being. And you're just as blind to it, because such terms don't offend YOU.



The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 8:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


DT,
Quote:

Open the other eye. You cannot see the insults which insult the right because you are not on the right. You tend to remark upon the insults which affect all humanity "asshole" etc. and those which effect the left "libtard" or those which effect a non partisan group "raghead" but you don't see, and often have used yourself things which offend the right.

If someone were to say "Racist wingnut teabaggers like Rand Paul and Ron Paul" Will hit offensive on several levels.

I reject your argument. I call out offensive material on both sides, “teabaggers” being an example. Negative name-calling of either side, or anyone, offends me and I’ll say so. I think once again that you are exhibiting a bias toward the right, and judging me accordingly. Certainly I'm biased toward the left, but your posts to me seem to go overboard in that direction.

You seem to have latched onto my impression that there is more hatred and ugliness on the right than on the left. Given what I see on the MSM every day, what I run into when I search the internet, and what I read posted here, I think that’s accurate; but it is nonetheless my opinion, and I think you are wrong in how you characterize what I see or don’t see.

Yes, I have used negative generalizations myself in the past; I’m trying to change that. I don’t see “The tea party sure has attracted the birthers and truthers" as untrue; if it were phrased “the tea party is made up of (or “is all) birthers and truthers”, that would be offensive to me. Given those two types of people HAVE been attracted to the tea party (along with racists), which I came to believe from words and writings of tea partiers themselves. I think there are “truthers” in both parties to probably an equal extent, a I’ve seen and heard them on the left. Beyond that, anyone is fully free to find anything offensive and say so, but I maintain that I see it on both sides and am able to recognize it and be offended by it no matter which “side” says it.

I also see no “pairing” of the two types; mentioning them in the same sentence in no way indicates they are the same thing, just that those two mentalities have been attracted to the tea party. There is no comparison, and I’m sure there are many of one who do not belong to the other group. Why you say they are lumped together is something I don’t understand. If you were to say “The Republican party attracts conservatives and libertarians” (which is also true), it doesn’t mean conservatives are all libertarians. I fail to see the logic of your argument.

Ooops, I see Mike made my argument. I’d be offended by “neocon teabaggers” because of the teabagger reference; but if it’s referring to a neocon Republicans, there exists such a group so I would find it descriptive, not offensive.

I would find “"Racist wingnut teabaggers like Rand Paul and Ron Paul" offensive, because it is patently untrue on several points in my opinion and derogatory to boot. I find obscenities like “asshole” only offensive when they are used as personal attacks, I use “fuck” a lot myself, among other things. For me, it’s not the obscenity itself, it’s how it’s used.

“Neolibs” wouldn’t offend me, as I assume it means “new liberals”, whether meant derogatorily or not; and I’m not familiar with the term and what it supposedly means. “Neocon” which I assume originally meant “new conservatives” is generally understood to mean a specific group with specific ideology, actions, etc., and has come to be part of the vernacular, whatever its original meaning. I use neocon because it is understood what I mean, and is pretty much understood as a negative by everyone, given their actions in the recent past.

I haven’t noticed the word “neolib” used, but “Most people today when you say neolib would apply the term to the folks who started the IMF, World Bank and WTO. I'm pretty sure that they're responsible for the destruction of the planet, oppression of the third world, etc.” is your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but I would argue that, while the majority of Americans are somewhat familiar with the phrase neocon, few if any share that opinion, as most people grab a phrase and bandy it about (often not understanding its meaning anyway), and I believe a relatively small percentage of Americans haven’t given any thought as to what you attribute to neolibs.

Where you get “A neocon is a neolib” defeats me, given you ascribe things to neolib specifically,then say they’re the same thing, while at the same time saying “a neolib is not a neocon”. That’s a direc contradiction, if you had said “a neocon is a neolib, but not ALL neolibs are neocons” it would make sense, but I’d still disagree and say it’s your opinion.

I also disagree that “The whole birther movement is run by an illegal alien from Moldova”. Whoever BEGAN it, it’s not “run” by any one person, it’s taken on a much larger context and is believed by people for many reasons. Yes, she has followers, and in your opinion she’s insane, but I don’t think you can flatly say what her purpose was in pushing it, as well as being confused by how you arrived at her starting it being because she wanted McCain to lose! I happen to think her purpose was more that

If you are referring to Linda Starr, a Clinton supporter who started the entire birther controversy as an attempt to delegitimize Obama, I don’t think she’s insane, just that she had her own reasons for starting it, then continued it out of her dislike of Obama. If you mean Orly Tatz, while born in Moldovia, she became an American citizen in 1992 and holds dual Israeli and US citizenship. Obviously you don’t believe that, and your belief that she’s insane is one I don’t share. Kooky, certainly, but I think she is fervently pro-Israel and anti-Obama, and that is her motivation. Given the above, I think you can be accused of using terms in a derogatory fashion which some would consider offensive; it’s all in the perception of the beholder, and anyone’s free to be offended by anything, as far as I’m concerned. I call out what’s offensive to ME, and I would find derogatory obscenities offensive no matter to whom they were directed.

All of which has nothing to do with the issue at hand, and I freely admit stoking fear is used by both sides.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 8:59 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I gotta say, I think the "teabagger" thing is kinda offensive. I know they called themselves that for a brief time, but they don't anymore, and "teabagging" is kinda gross.

It's like calling black people niggers and justifying it because black people have called themselves niggers on occasion. Don't like being called a nigger? Maybe they should be less of a nigger. While we're at it we can criticize their lifestyles and priorities using statistics to paint them with stereotypes.

You might say people can't choose their race and that makes things different, but the fact remains that tea partiers (like afircan americans in the example) are a large group of people being targeted based off of 1 thing.

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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 9:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I gotta say, I think the "teabagger" thing is kinda offensive. I know they called themselves that for a brief time, but they don't anymore, and "teabagging" is kinda gross.

It's like calling black people niggers and justifying it because black people have called themselves niggers on occasion. Don't like being called a nigger? Maybe they should be less of a nigger. While we're at it we can criticize their lifestyles and priorities using statistics to paint them with stereotypes.

You might say people can't choose their race and that makes things different, but the fact remains that tea partiers (like afircan americans in the example) are a large group of people being targeted based off of 1 thing.




You miss a key point: Black people didn't coin the word "nigger" to describe themselves. That word was thrust upon them by white slave traders who viewed them as nothing more than animals to be worked to death and then discarded.


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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 9:34 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

You miss a key point: Black people didn't coin the word "nigger" to describe themselves. That word was thrust upon them by white slave traders who viewed them as nothing more than animals to be worked to death and then discarded.


With respect, I think you are missing the key point. Regardless of who came up with the name, they don't like to be called by it. It implies something disgusting, offensive and completely irrelevant.

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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:19 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I gotta say, I think the "teabagger" thing is kinda offensive. I know they called themselves that for a brief time, but they don't anymore, and "teabagging" is kinda gross.

It's like calling black people niggers and justifying it because black people have called themselves niggers on occasion. Don't like being called a nigger? Maybe they should be less of a nigger. While we're at it we can criticize their lifestyles and priorities using statistics to paint them with stereotypes.

You might say people can't choose their race and that makes things different, but the fact remains that tea partiers (like afircan americans in the example) are a large group of people being targeted based off of 1 thing.




You miss a key point: Black people didn't coin the word "nigger" to describe themselves. That word was thrust upon them by white slave traders who viewed them as nothing more than animals to be worked to death and then discarded.





Happy and Mike,

You're missing a couple key points here.

1) Black people *did* coin the word. If you'd read enough about the Roman alliance with Numidia during the Punic wars you'd know this. I have spelled it all out on the board.

Technically, you could say that Cato did by asking for black soldiers by the latin word for black, Niger, but they then called themselves the Niger Regiment, and after the fall of Rome, the Niger tribe, and Niger, Nigeria, and the Niger river is named for them. When the Europeans bought slaves, it was first and foremost form Dahomey, which continued for a long time. The enslavement of Nigers by Dahomey started around 900AD. Dahomey is located where present day Togo and Benin are, and it was almost completely surrounded by the Niger river, which was the main homeland of the Niger. Dahomey soldiers would invade and conquer bands of Niger warriors, and then enslave them according to Roman law regarding prisoners of war. They then would often sell these slaves to nobles, merchants or even other african states. By the 15th c., they were selling them to Europe, and the Americas. When Columbus slaughter the Taino Arowak of Haiti, he did so in forced labor camps with his own african slaves.

When the first english speaking Niger arrived in America, they self Identified as Nigers. The pronunciation of that word is culturally dependent:

In Rome it would "Nig-air"
In Niger it's the french "Nee-zhair"
In Nigeria it's the english "Naijur"

At any rate, n*gger was the ignorant american colonist corruption of something that sounded to them like n*gger.

But that didn't make it an epithet. I was used to debase them, and classify them as "less than human" in the way that "Kafir" (not a muslim) was used by whites (who were not muslims, they were dutch colonists) against blacks (some of whom were muslims) to mean "less than human, or less than us."



So, teabagger. No, no one said this. Some idiot tea partier said "let's tea bag congress" being no more aware of its meaning than howard dean was when he said "Hide the salami." Old people are out of it is all this means, but there's a major point you're both missing:


IMPORTANT

An entire population is not responsible for all of the actions of one of its members. This is group association and punishment. That's like saying "Blacks attacked the jews" because there were some people of african descent during the 80s who were sharply critical of certain financial interests manipulating their rent, and took it out on certain people, and then to follow with "so the jews retaliated" by then referencing certain jewish media people who selectively suppressed certain black musicians from record labels. No, all of this is the actions of individual morons.

When Black slaves arriving in Virginia declares "We are the Nigers" they means "We're proud to be members of a warrior tribe which may be the only surviving state of the Roman Empire."

What they most emphatically did not mean was "We are subhumanoid morons who would be pleased to serve massa and lick your boots if you would just feed us 'cause we too fuckin' dumb to feed ourselves. Oh, and while you're at it, cut off our balls."

See, it's the white attitude that was expressed that went with their use of the word n*gger, whether or not it was a corruption of Niger, that was the problem.

Remember when Harry Belafonte called Colin Powell a "House Slave"? That was offensive. Powell is a self made hypocrite. He's nobody's bitch. But when a black person on the street calls their homey a n*gger, they mean nothing hostile by it. Sure, it may be unwise, because it may legitimize the use of the term by a racist white population salivating at the chance to resurrect the old racial division, that was not what was intended. But if one black person does something like Belafonte did, it's not really fair to say "blacks did that."

A random asshole said something dumb. He wasn't a population of millions when he did it, and didn't get their approval.

You want I should say that the democrats called Barack Obama "Osama Bin Laden" first, so now it's okay if the republicans do it? I mean, by this logic, it's true. But it's much more fair to say "Howard Dean was a moron when he called the president 'Osama Bin Laden' instead of Barack Obama" He was a lone moron. And he was not a random democrat when he did it, he was Chair of the Democratic Party. But that doesn't mean that this is the position of democrats, or that it's now okay for republicans to call the president "Osama" because it they do, I'm sure they mean nothing good by it.


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Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:27 PM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

You're still missing the obvious: Some things are offensive. IIRC, You posted teabaggers before it was pointed out to you that it was offensive.

Don't feel bad about it, we all miss a lot of insults that aren't aimed at us. Sure, we catch the obvious ones. But how am I to know what a Magic Negro is? I mean, I do, but only because Frem explained it to me. If someone calls someone a cocksucker, that's pretty obvious. But if they say that a group of people are Jihadists, how do I know? Maybe they call themselves Jihadists. Maybe they thinks that's an honorable thing to be. Maybe they hate it. Maybe they think it's demeaning and derogatory, and that they're only being called that because they're muslim, but actually they prefer to think of themselves as a peoples front for democratic reform. I don't know. I'm not them. I'm not likely to see what offends them unless it's really obvious. Like raghead.

So yes, I've seen you on the boards consistently miss many things that are offensive to the right and even belt many of them out. But it's not like I'm singling you out. We all do it. You're the one launching this campaign, I'm simply saying "Hey, we all do it, because it's hard to block the ones you can't see." So yes, if you are the sole judge of who is offensive, you will see the right as offensive because you are the target they hit.


Quote:

I don’t see “The tea party sure has attracted the birthers and truthers" as untrue;


I wasn't saying that Fox and Friends or whoever were inaccurate, but that they were manipulating language. They were saying it as if birthers and truthers were the same kind of loon.



Orly Tatz is insane. She comes across like a lunatic. We should know


Neoliberalism is widely known. It way precedes its offshoot "Neoconservatism" but it's still alive and well. But neocons are neolibs. They only say that they support conservative social issues. They may actually believe in them. So what? That's not their main goal.

Quote:


I haven’t noticed the word “neolib” used, but “Most people today when you say neolib would apply the term to the folks who started the IMF, World Bank and WTO. I'm pretty sure that they're responsible for the destruction of the planet, oppression of the third world, etc.” is your opinion



Excuse me. Sure there were opinions in there, but that the neoliberals created the IMF et al is not even a subject of debate.



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