REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Will religion become extinct?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, October 31, 2024 19:59
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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This caught my eye because we've been posting about religion. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I found it an interesting theory:
Quote:
Organized religion will all but vanish eventually from nine Western-style democracies, a team of mathematicians predict in a new paper based on census data stretching back 100 years.

It won't die out completely, but "religion will be driven toward extinction" in countries including Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands, they say.

It will also wither away in Austria, the Czech Republic, Finland and Switzerland, they anticipate.

They can't make a prediction about the United States because the U.S. census doesn't ask about religion, lead author Daniel Abrams told CNN.

But nine other countries provide enough data for detailed mathematical modeling, he said.

"If you look at the data, 'unaffiliated' is the fastest-growing group" in those countries, he said.

"We start with two big assumptions based on sociology," he explained.

The first is that it's more attractive to be part of the majority than the minority, so as religious affiliation declines, it becomes more popular not to be a churchgoer than to be one, he said - what Abrams calls the majority effect.

"People are more likely to switch to groups with more members," he said.

Social networks can have a powerful influence, he said.

"Just a few connections to people who are (religiously) unaffiliated is enough to drive the effect," he said.

The other assumption underlying the prediction is that there are social, economic and political advantages to being unaffiliated with a religion in the countries where it's in decline - what Abrams calls the utility effect.

"The utility of being unaffiliated seems to be higher than affiliated in Western democracies," he said.

Abrams and his co-authors are not passing any judgment on religion, he's quick to say - they're just modeling a prediction based on trends.

"We're not trying to make any commentary about religion or whether people should be religious or not," he said.

"I became interested in this because I saw survey data results for the U.S. and was surprised by how large the unaffiliated group was," he said, referring to a number of studies done by universities and think tanks on trends in religion.

Studies suggest that "unaffiliated" is the fastest-growing religious group in the United States, with about 15% of the population falling into a category experts call the "nones."

They're not necessarily atheists or non-believers, experts say, just people who do not associate themselves with a particular religion or house of worship at the time of the survey.

Abrams had done an earlier study looking into the extinction of languages spoken by small numbers of people.

When he saw the religion data, his co-author "Richard Wiener suggested we try to apply a similar technique to religious affiliation," Abrams said.

The paper, by Abrams, Wiener and Haley A. Yaple, is called "A mathematical model of social group competition with application to the growth of religious non-affiliation." They presented it this week at the Dallas meeting of the American Physical Society.

Only the Czech Republic already has a majority of people who are unaffiliated with religion, but the Netherlands, for example, will go from about 40% unaffiliated today to more than 70% by 2050, they expect.

Even deeply Catholic Ireland will see religion die out, the model predicts.

"They've gone from 0.04% unaffiliated in 1961 to 4.2% in 2006, our most recent data point," Abrams says.

He admits that the increase in Muslim immigration to Europe may throw off the model, but he thinks the trend is robust enough to withstand some challenges.

"Netherlands data goes back to 1860," he pointed out. "Every single data that we were able to find shows that people are moving from the affiliated to unaffiliated. I can't imagine that will change, but that's personal opinion, not what the data shows."

But Barry Kosmin, a demographer of religion at Trinity College in Connecticut, is doubtful.

"Religion relies on human beings. They aren't rational or predictable according to the laws of physics. Religious fervor waxes and wanes in unpredictable ways," he said.

"The Jewish tradition that says prophecy is for fools and children is probably wise," he added.

And Abrams, Wiener and Yaple are not the first to predict the end of religion.

Peter Berger, a former president of the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion, once said that, "People will become so bored with what religious groups have to offer that they will look elsewhere."

He said Protestantism "has reached the strange state of self-liquidation," that Catholicism was in severe crisis, and anticipated that "religions are likely to survive in small enclaves and pockets" in the United States.

He made those predictions in February 1968.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/23/religion-to-go-extinct-in-9-c
ountries-experts-predict/?hpt=T2

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:39 AM

KANEMAN


It has stood the test of time so far. If people are willing to let their children blow themselves up over religion(with all the science out there already) I don't see how any new human advancement can ever change that....unless Jesus comes down from the clouds and asks us all to be nice...religion will continue to produce assholes like YOU. Now, hit the bong and kneel before Zod. Sure I know the paper was about nine-western countries...where is the fun in that?

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Stupid post, as usual. You might have had a topic worth discussing if you'd just stopped at the first half. How can religion produce me, given I'm against organized religion?

Of course we know about you...you defeat yourself every damned time.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off


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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:39 AM

MOCKROMANCER


Stupid posts do not exist.That, minds too small to comprehend the genius contained within do exist, is true. It is a shame they are not as elusive as bigfoot. Minds this closed should never be seen or heard, at least not in this dimension. peace out.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 12:01 PM

DREAMTROVE



Religion is very clearly on the sharp rise.Reports of its death were greatly exaggerated.

Note the date. This is classic contrarian logic: Pinpointing basically the exact low in religious affiliation.

Now that we have more access to more religion, we appear to become more religious rather than less. The reason is simple: More freedom of choice. You have far more Buddhists on this board today than you would have had in WWII, because everyone has access to all the information they need. If you didn't have access to Buddhism, you would never become a Buddhist. Someone who might follow Buddhism but couldn't follow Christianity when given only two options, Christianity or Atheism, might choose Atheism. Given more options, they are likely to make a different choice.




That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Will religion become extinct?


God willing.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:07 PM

HARDWARE


As times become more unsettled, more and more people will turn to religion to ease their suffering.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:05 PM

DREAMTROVE


And the Creek don't rise.

Hardware I use to think so but now I think that religion arises in the absence of religion. Just like govt.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:21 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Will religion become extinct?


God willing.


I about lost my keyboard to that LOL!

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:38 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Europe is a bit screwed up right now, morally and otherwise, so I wouldn't look to their trends as something to emulate.

I think that humans were basically hardwired to believe in something, to seek truth in what they see and experience, to ask cosmic questions like why we're here etc. Some people may not appear interested in these things at all times, but I think if push came to shove even the people who are normally uninterested in such things would look for something to believe in, to hope towards. Maybe not everyone, but most people.

No, I don't think that religeon will come to an end. The point about more info being out there made sense, that if people know about lots of theories and religeons they have more choices so we see a wider variety of afiliations.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 2:49 AM

MOCKROMANCER


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:


I think that humans were basically hardwired to believe in something, to seek truth in what they see and experience, to ask cosmic questions like why we're here etc. Some people may not appear interested in these things at all times, but I think if push came to shove even the people who are normally uninterested in such things would look for something to believe in, to hope towards. Maybe not everyone, but most people.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



I agree. The election of Barack proves this true.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 4:52 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Europe is a bit screwed up right now, morally and otherwise, so I wouldn't look to their trends as something to emulate.

I think that humans were basically hardwired to believe in something, to seek truth in what they see and experience, to ask cosmic questions like why we're here etc. Some people may not appear interested in these things at all times, but I think if push came to shove even the people who are normally uninterested in such things would look for something to believe in, to hope towards. Maybe not everyone, but most people.

No, I don't think that religeon will come to an end. The point about more info being out there made sense, that if people know about lots of theories and religeons they have more choices so we see a wider variety of afiliations.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya


I concur. I think religion is about to hit Europe in a major way and save it from itself, or TPTB.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:43 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I think that humans were basically hardwired to believe in something, to seek truth in what they see and experience, to ask cosmic questions like why we're here etc.

I sure hope that science is an acceptable something to believe in and use to seek truth in what I see and experience, because it's the only thing I've found that works for that.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:51 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I wasn't aware Science and Religion were meant to be
mutually exclusive I sincerely doubt Riona is arguing against science.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 9:40 AM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Will religion become extinct?


God willing.





Facts are stubborn things.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:10 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I wasn't aware Science and Religion were meant to be mutually exclusive

Meant is a rather interesting choice of words. One was not created with the sole purpose of countering the other, but that does tend to be a side effect.
I was never very religious, but even I have grown less so the more I learn about the nature of the physical world. Hearing engineers mocking the 'intelligence' of our 'design' is convincing to me all by itself, but grows more so as I find out more about said design. Belief systems started out trying to explain why the world was how it was. Most of them don't do a very good job of it, because they attribute human thinking and such to what is essentially chemistry. Here in the 21st century, when we can actually observe some part of the pattern that makes up the universe, the need to anthropomorphize it decreases.
As the world starts to make more sense, superstitions in general make less.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:23 AM

BYTEMITE


I suppose this conversation has reached a point where I must admit I'm an atheist and a scientist.

Before we commence open warfare, I would like to negotiate my own neutrality, mostly because I want to peg people with some water balloons. And you think you'll expect it because I just told you.

But you won't.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:26 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Science is cool and we'd be sunk without an understanding of it.

I do not find that my increasing understanding of how the world works as I've gotten older has dampened or dented my Christianity.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Europe is a bit screwed up right now, morally and otherwise, so I wouldn't look to their trends as something to emulate.

I think that humans were basically hardwired to believe in something, to seek truth in what they see and experience, to ask cosmic questions like why we're here etc. Some people may not appear interested in these things at all times, but I think if push came to shove even the people who are normally uninterested in such things would look for something to believe in, to hope towards. Maybe not everyone, but most people.

No, I don't think that religeon will come to an end. The point about more info being out there made sense, that if people know about lots of theories and religeons they have more choices so we see a wider variety of afiliations.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya




I concur. I think religion is about to hit Europe in a major way and save it from itself, or TPTB.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.



Not sure how religion is supposed to "save Europe from itself". The darkest times in Europe's history tended to center on religion of one form or another.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by LiLi:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Will religion become extinct?


God willing.





Facts are stubborn things.



I 'preciate that. :)

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)





Two hands working can do more than a million hands clasped in prayer.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:32 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Hey check it out, verbal assault on religion without provocation! That didn't take long. It appears all that is required is to suggest religion and science can coexist without being at odds. How intolerant of me.

I wonder how often that happens? Perhaps this examples like this are why that percentage of religious folks felt atheists were a mite hostile...


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Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


'Cause, y'know, religion would NEVER attack science, right?

Right?

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:50 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I wonder how often that happens? Perhaps this examples like this are why that percentage of religious folks felt atheists were a mite hostile...

...Perhaps being told repeatedly that I'm going to burn in hell is why I feel Christians are a mite hostile.

If accurate reporting of what I have observed in my own life is "hostile" then there's really no point in this discussion.

Harsh as it may look, Kwicko's graphic there is also an accurate reporting of what I have observed in my own life. I tried ritual, I tried soul-searching, I tried sheer force of will. For years. My life never got any better until I found someone who could give me an actual, physical, affectable reason that I felt so bad, so tired, so stressed out. This gave me something I could do other than just hope or appeal to the 'divine' for a change. The problems are getting fixed. My life has improved a great deal, in a little under one year. Nothing theological did that. I'm convinced by results. If that's offensive... Well, it shouldn't be. Proof is in the pudding, as they say. And my Science Pudding is delicious!


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:52 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I sure hope that science is an acceptable something to believe in and use to seek truth in what I see and experience, because it's the only thing I've found that works for that.



PR, science makes decent personal models (scientology) but terrible social ones (fascism). Solve problems with science, but live with faith.



That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:57 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
'Cause, y'know, religion would NEVER attack science, right?

Right?


Exactly, though I wouldn't put that kind of behavior past a few religious people, atheists, or scientists.

We can speak of hypotheticals and list all manner of examples presumably from personal experiences and the like, but I'd like to point out that right here, right now, in this thread, religious people of RWED are not attacking science or scientists. Can the same be said of the atheists?

I appreciate that, for the most part, y'all don't seem to hold our differences concerning religion against me, but there is not shortage of vitriol aimed at Christianity in general and no one seems to have a problem with it. I don't let it bother me, that's just kinda how the internet seems to work. I just wanted to point out that for all the supposed 'aggressive Christians' that are out there, you don't see much of that here in RWED... Seem's like the atheist are more aggressive

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:01 PM

DREAMTROVE





Actually, a minority of the world's religions believe in prayer and hell.



Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I suppose this conversation has reached a point where I must admit I'm an atheist and a scientist.

Before we commence open warfare, I would like to negotiate my own neutrality, mostly because I want to peg people with some water balloons. And you think you'll expect it because I just told you.

But you won't.




You just haven't met the right god yet ;)



That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:03 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Europe is a bit screwed up right now, morally and otherwise, so I wouldn't look to their trends as something to emulate.



How is Europe morally screwed up? I find this an odd comment, partially because 'Europe' is made up of so many different kinds of people, with varied cultures, languages etc. I understand that parts of the place (but not all) are suffering because of the GFC, just like the US and elsewhere. But can you explain what you mean about morally?

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:06 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Hey Pheonix,

I never told you you were going to hell, and for the record, I believe anyone who claims to know that is full of shit. It's my belief that those decisions are in God's hands and it's best to leave him make them. Apparently this sets me apart from many a Christian, but I don't assume everyone who believes different from how I do is going straight to hell.

I'm not going to tell you how you should have lived you life or if I think things could be done better, that's not my place or anyone else's. If things are better now, I am happy for you. I disagree with some of what you've said from a scientific standpoint (not religious) but this sounds a mite emotional, so lets just agree to disagree.

I'm just saying, I don't find it unreasonable or even illogical to be both religious and scientific.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:08 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I sure hope that science is an acceptable something to believe in and use to seek truth in what I see and experience, because it's the only thing I've found that works for that.


PR, science makes decent personal models (scientology) but terrible social ones (fascism). Solve problems with science, but live with faith.

Okay, scientology, really? That doesn't even deserve mention in the context of actual science. It's one of the least rational things I've ever heard of.
Rationality does not make for terrible social models, the idea that it does is inherently flawed. Since science has found more than one empathy function in the brain, it actually just proves that humanity is essentially humane, and following that would be of great benefit. The responsive desire to end someone else's suffering could make a great social model. "That's wrong because it causes suffering." is much less sticky than, say, "That's wrong because such-and-such says it's a sin, and I think it's icky." You get into all sorts of useless cycles of argument with that, like whether people with a different sexuality than you should be treated like human beings or not. There's not a single logical reason for them not to be; this is not a cause of great suffering. You're going to say that this is a terrible societal model? I can't agree with that.
Living well is just a long series of good solutions; solving problems and living are hardly mutually exclusive. I'm almost offended that you would tell me I need to live with some sort of faith, especially if you think it should be faith in something that has never worked to solve any of my problems, which is frankly the implication of your statement to not "live with" science.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:



Actually, a minority of the world's religions believe in prayer and hell.



Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I suppose this conversation has reached a point where I must admit I'm an atheist and a scientist.

Before we commence open warfare, I would like to negotiate my own neutrality, mostly because I want to peg people with some water balloons. And you think you'll expect it because I just told you.

But you won't.




You just haven't met the right god yet ;)



That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.



I haven't met ANY god yet. They tend to make themselves invisible, it seems.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:09 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
'Cause, y'know, religion would NEVER attack science, right?

Right?


Exactly, though I wouldn't put that kind of behavior past a few religious people, atheists, or scientists.

We can speak of hypotheticals and list all manner of examples presumably from personal experiences and the like, but I'd like to point out that right here, right now, in this thread, religious people of RWED are not attacking science or scientists. Can the same be said of the atheists?

I appreciate that, for the most part, y'all don't seem to hold our differences concerning religion against me, but there is not shortage of vitriol aimed at Christianity in general and no one seems to have a problem with it. I don't let it bother me, that's just kinda how the internet seems to work. I just wanted to point out that for all the supposed 'aggressive Christians' that are out there, you don't see much of that here in RWED... Seem's like the atheist are more aggressive


I'm not sure that I've seen any major attacks on religion here,certainly nothing aggressive,(I'm not counting Kaneman who is a troll) just discussions around why science makes more sense to some people than religion, as well as how some people feel that can reconcile both science and religion.

The fact that you find it difficult to hear people express their views on religion, which are different to your own, demonstrates one of the major problems that besets religion - the mere existence of dissent is seen as attack and therefore should be shut down.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:13 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:
The fact that you find it difficult to hear people express their views on religion


Oh really? I wasn't aware. Are Australians psychic too?

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:18 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I disagree with some of what you've said from a scientific standpoint (not religious) but this sounds a mite emotional...

Try me. I won't deny that the changes in my life have had a profound impact on me, so maybe it is emotional to an extent, but if there's something that I don't want to talk about, I can say that. I'm currently studying for a degree in science, and grow ever more calm and rational.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:29 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Coolies

It's not about your life. I was just going to remark that I think it's a little early to mock our "poor design" when we're still just beginning to discover how it really works, especially concerning the brain.

That's really it, just wanted to minimize disagreements in case things weren't cool.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:
The fact that you find it difficult to hear people express their views on religion


Oh really? I wasn't aware. Are Australians psychic too?



What you call "psychic", others call "observant". Not in any religious sense of the word. Just in the "paying attention" sense.

It didn't take a psychic to foresee how conservatives were going to react to Obama's Libyan adventure. They were mad because he wasn't bombing, right up until he started bombing, and then they were mad because he was bombing, which they never supported. They were mad because he wasn't imposing a no-fly zone, either unilaterally or with the help of the UN, NATO, or Manny, Moe, and Jack - until he agreed to help the UN and NATO impose a no-fly zone, which they would NEVER have done. They were mad when he didn't "consult Congress", which they spell "lie to Congress" - but that was only because it didn't give them time to voice their disapproval BEFORE he didn't do whatever it was they wanted, then didn't want, him to do, or not do.

That's not called "being psychic." That's called "being awake."



It seems the only "psychics" on this board are the conservatives and neo-cons, who were sure all the "liberals" around here would all cheer Obama's latest actions (I'm not devining that information; it's posted for all to see). So far, few (if any) have cheered it. Rappy *kind of* came close, in a semi-lukewarm way, but that's only because it was the weekend, Americans were killing brown people (which he's always in favor of), and FauxNews hadn't told him how to feel about it yet (really, look at his posts - he didn't take a stand until Beck, LImbaugh, and O'Reilly told him what to think).

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:

It's not about your life. I was just going to remark that I think it's a little early to mock our "poor design" when we're still just beginning to discover how it really works, especially concerning the brain.



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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:48 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


No, we're just always right.

And as far as I know, facism is not an athiestic philosophy: "Without pledging ourselves to any particular Confession, we have restored faith to its pre-requisites because we were convinced that the people needs [sic] and requires [sic] this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." Adolf Hitler, 1933.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:49 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I was commenting on the ASSumption (to borrow more from my moronic thread) that I had a problem with differing opinions. But that was my mistake. Clearly I should not be speaking for myself, but as a 'nameless concervative No 2460whatever.'

I'll just stop typing and let everyone not me decide how I really feel about this. That's democratic, right?

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:49 PM

BYTEMITE


I'd point out the flaws in our reproductive system sooner than I'd point out any mental problems.

Bipedalism --> narrow hips, and then we SOMEHOW end up selecting for ginormous skulls to pass through the birth canal? Where does death by childbirth become conducive for the continuance of the species? Pretty crazy.

I'm assuming a role like the mid-wife had to start appearing in the primitive cultures of the pre-humans at about the time, because it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

I also have words to say about that whole messed up telomerase thing, plus cancer susceptibilities in the genes. Wish the universe had a complaints compartment.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:50 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


It's actually the joints of our knees and hips that I've heard being referred to as a poor design, from an engineering standpoint. They tend to hold up very poorly to decades of walking upright. I am not an engineer, but I have heard them make some excellent points about such things.
However, if you want a list, especially concerning the brain/endocrine system, I could give you a brief one.
1) Failsafes built in to our thyroid to keep our bodies from burning out through what is basically a forcible shutdown. Problem is when they fail to stop working, someone becomes not only chronically exhausted, but depressed.
2) The processing of sugar. When we have too much in our system, the body produces more insulin to deal with it. This in itself would be fine if high levels of insulin did not create a desire for sweet things, thus becoming a self-perpetuating cycle that can lead to diabetes. On a similar note, low serotonin can also cause a desire for sweet things, which can wreak havoc of its own.
3) Women have open mucus membranes less than an inch away from waste disposal. Think about that for a minute. For that matter, men have a urinary tract that goes directly through the prostate gland, and the same piping handles their seed. Don't know about you, but if I were a designer, I might try to rearrange a few things, there.
4) One of the greatest human assets, that of pattern recognition, can be our greatest downfall when we attribute things to patterns that don't exist. This ties very closely with the dopamine system, one of our most vital neurotransmitters. Not only learning but motor control! This should be a very carefully regulated thing. Nope, gets out of whack all the time, not only causing thousands of people to link something like human sacrifice with plants growing, but also diseases that were once attributed to demonic possession.
5) Seizures. Too much 'electricity' runs through your brain, you lose all motor control and can seriously damage yourself, even unto death. Not a problem that everyone has, but if the electrician is competent, you're not going to get too much faulty wiring. But too much electricity works out better than too little (death), so it has remained in existence. That's natural selection at work.

All that being said, there are a lot of pretty amazing things about living organisms. Stunning, really. I just don't think they're unexplainable, and the explanations fill me with all the more joy and awe for being something other than, "It's magic."


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:55 PM

BYTEMITE


To be fair to guys, Cowper's cleans out the urea and neutralizes the pH generally before the gametes are released. But women's anatomy is messed up. Menstruation? Proximity of features that should not be proximal? How is it early women didn't end up completely filthy and diseased? The mind boggles to know.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:57 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:
All that being said, there are a lot of pretty amazing things about living organisms. Stunning, really. I just don't think they're unexplainable, and the explanations fill me with all the more joy and awe for being something other than, "It's magic."


Totally! That's why science is so shiny, there's always more to learn and discover. I'm thinking we're actually agreeing here after all.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:02 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
To be fair to guys, Cowper's cleans out the urea and neutralizes the pH generally before the gametes are released.

True, true. That end of the stick is certainly better than what women were handed, but it's still semi-sloppy plumbing from an engineering perspective. Might save a tiny amount of space, but it still seems like it would be easier to just have a couple different pipes.
However, on a related subject, a male human's testicles are his greatest weak spot. Most animals can either fully withdraw them, or have them protected by their haunches. Not men, though. Another possible flaw in the design. I'm inclined to think it exists more because the benefits of walking upright were just too huge for the disadvantages to matter much than because it was deliberate.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:13 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:
The fact that you find it difficult to hear people express their views on religion


Oh really? I wasn't aware. Are Australians psychic too?


I was responding to your post here on RWD. Do you consider that psychic, or have you just gone on the defensive major big time?

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:14 PM

BYTEMITE


You got me there.

In regards to belief in a God, it occurs to me there could be benefits, such as something for the megalomaniacal mad scientist to aspire to. Personally, though, I don't want to invest myself that way. Then I'd have to read a bunch of philosophy and theology, and I'm a lot more flexible when I'm just pulling my ideas outta nowhere than if they were the product of a lot study. Also I have concerns about the comfort angle: as a cynic, I want the world to look as harsh and sharp as possible, just so's I don't underestimate the capacity for cruelty.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:24 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Interesting. I have noticed that a great number of cynics are atheists, one of my favorite ones being a self-described 'recovered Catholic' who funnels his cynicism through that lens, but also uses rationality to keep him sane. Granted, I've never been theistic in my life, so nothing really had to drive me to it, but I have been known to be pretty cynical. I think my studies have made me less cynical, though. Having a reason I can really sink my teeth into makes things seem not so bad. Makes me even more cynical about some things, to be sure, but I feel better about others, like maybe not everything is hopeless.


I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:33 PM

BYTEMITE


A love of the outdoors used to be all I needed to sustain some manner of self-invented spirituality and sense of well-being about the world and the human place in it. The belief is still mostly there, but it's no longer a source of positivity.

I have never been any religion, my rejection of it does not come from any experience with any of them. So neither does my cynicism.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 4:24 AM

DREAMTROVE


People work as jobs have "faith" in what their employer is doing.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 1:29 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:
Originally posted by Mockromancer:
Stupid posts do not exist.That, minds too small to comprehend the genius contained within do exist, is true. It is a shame they are not as elusive as bigfoot. Minds this closed should never be seen or heard, at least not in this dimension. peace out.
Ahh, maybe it was Kane who needed the sickpuppy, to make himself look more viable. Doesn't work. Whoever you are, I don't buy you as legit. You came in two days ago and have only posted in RWED, ergo I do not consider you a Browncoat, and the substance of your posts makes me think you are a troll.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off


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