I'd like to discuss this theory rationally by AnthonyT

I think for sure we don't know everything that happened on 9-11 despite the 900 plus page commission report. I know our government is incompetent, and so it's not entirely unreasonable that they could have just dropped the ball on the hijackers and the attack, and the fact that they're incompetent is good reason to believe they simply couldn't have pulled it off even if they wanted to.

However, they also have stated in writing that they intend to use false flag terror attacks on American citizens to whip up public support for various policies, and official stories for some of the other terrorist attacks on US soil break down on closer examination. I remain a skeptic for all official stories, though I don't fully commit to the unofficial ones either.

As for Osama Bin Laden... Hmm. There's a reason I haven't been commenting on this, and that's because I'm still not quite sure what to think.

I know he's been on dialysis, and I expected him to die a while ago, and I also saw the news reports that he was dead.

On the other hand, the only source for the old news report was someone in Pakistan, who might have had good reason to have lied. Really, I don't quite believe this recent report OR the old report.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 6:59 AM

Fox News, We Report, You Decide
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

What Really happened gets strange DDOS attack hours *before* Obama's bombshell

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.php

http://www.a-w-i-p.com/years-of-deceit-us-openly-accepts-bin-la.html

I can't find the link now, I thought I had it bookmarked The 2001 Haaretz story contained the line: Israeli intelligence on the ground has confirmed [the death of Osama Bin Laden of natural causes]

The story surfaced 12-26-01, but some sources say he had died on 12-13. He had been ill for some time, and even prior to the terrorist attacks of 9.11.01 he was spending most of his time in hospitals for myriad health problems, including diabetes and kidney failure, probably related to opium abuse which is very common in Afghanistan.

That's a reasonable starting point, I think. I would only add a couple of thoughts:

1) Osama has not released a credible audio or video that has been verified to be him by anyone but the US and possibly one or two of her stalwart allies.

2) Nothing was released by Osama for some time after his death, and when it was, it was fairly inconsistent with anything he had said or written before.

3) Everything Osama said after his death seems calculated to support US calls for action, and not his own muslim solidarity agenda.

4) The continued existence of Osama after his death is an issue which only serves US interests.

The hunt for Osama Bin Laden was used by Bush in 2002 to support an invasion of Afghanistan, by Cheney in 2003 to support the invasion of Iraq and by Obama in 2009 to support the invasion of Pakistan.

It seems a living man might take action to counter the use of his name for attacks against multiple countries where he was allegedly hiding.

Many people made the argument "How can you not find a 6'6" arab in central asia, where everyone else is somewhat shorter, and either persian or indo-aryan. I think the answer to that question is "Because he's not walking around, he's buried under the ground."

Re: his involvement in the attacks of 9.11, he denied it almost immediately, which is an odd thing to do because he had everything to gain by claiming credit, which is what terrorists usually do. Terrorists don't deny attacks. That would completely defeat the whole purpose of terrorism.

Given his deteriorating health over his last year, it would be hard to credit that he masterminded an attack that circumvented the entire US defense structure. From where? A hospital in Paris? Or one in Dubai?

One piece of natural skepticism we should have about anything being propagated extensively throughout the information network is "who or what does this information serve?"

As for my own speculation on the attacks? I am virtually certain that it was done by placing explosives in the buildings, and the airplanes were done for spectacle. Nothing about the physics make sense otherwise.

As for whodunnit? I think that's a separate question. I would say "could be terrorists" but my suspicion would be that it was at least in part inside job. My reason for this suspicion is that I think US military defenses are essentially unbreachable, and the attacker would have had to have access to the buildings ahead of time. Ergo, they would have at least one inside man, and probably more. It could be entirely inside, but I would be a lot less sure of any guess I made on "who" did it than I would be on "how it was done."

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:06 AM

Byte, I wish I had the Israeli intelligence report on hand. I have it somewhere. It's not my understanding that it was a lone Pakistani report without verification. If it were, I would have been more skeptical of it, since they would have a vested interest in his death before anyone decided to use his life as a reason to invade Pakistan.

It's worth noting that the specific regional Afghan-Pakistan border is a line on the map not locally recognized. The people on what we would call the Pakistani side are Afghans, and consider themselves as such, which is why they are a problem for Pakistan.

A realistic border for Pakistan would be the Indus River. There are virtually no ethnic Pakistanis living west of the Indus River, and virtually no Afghans Pashtun or Persians living east of the Indus River. It's really the traditional border between Peria and India, two empires currently in a state of disarray.

That may change after we lose this war, but the realistic river border hasn't moved in centuries, if not millenia.

ETA, Anthony, Byte,

It's nice to see there are some people who think. I come here to gather information, not to disseminate it, so I don't spend a lot of time constructing arguments, most of what I say is my collected understanding based on what I've gathered, so it's hard for me to present that as a winning argument.

Frem and John are both in the information disseminating business, and by all means, nitpick and cherry pick away, but when they do way in, which they will, consider their information on its own merits, regardless of what you think of their conclusions. I humbly suggest doing what I do with it, which is to take each information point that looks interesting and go digging for myself to see how much truth there is in it.

I also have to add that someone on the mission to capture him sent me a message many years ago saying: 'Everyone here is convinced that he is already dead, including the brass, and this mission was a recruiting trick which has me stuck in this war' - a war he was in for 5 years. That's anecdotal, but it did give me early skepticism, and so I took note of all mentions of "the hunt of bin laden" "the need to get him" and "where he was hiding" as well as everything bin laden "said" with interest, skepticism and a grain of salt, and I found a consistent propagandistic pattern to all of the above.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:11 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Anthony,

I have a real problem believing that the events described this week were faked. I have a real problem accepting that some completely invisible body is running the world so expertly and so decisively that they elect to release this information right now and folks like President Obama just say, "Yes sir," lying to the entire world and history itself. I have a real problem believing that they control such things so completely and can't control the raft of embarrassments that plague this and every other Presidency. On the one hand they're all-powerful gods of politics and on the other they can't seem to tie their own shoes.

As far as I can see, it all boils down to what sources one believes to be "credible," and from what I've seen, "credibility" is in the whimsical eye of the beholder.

From what I've learned of covert government agencies they're all about bafflement and deniability--that's how they cover things up and get what they want done. This raid on OBL's compound and its aftermath is just too damn simple and unambiguous to smell like CIA bullshit.

It virtually HANDS the next election to Obama. That's the only "big lie" purpose I see this news serving. Thing is, Obama's victory in the upcoming election was pretty assured before all this. So, these all powerful gods of politics see fit to waste this momentous news on a cause that's virtually won in the first place? No, in that case, they continue to hold that ace until it is *needed*.

The reasoning on this conspiracy just screams back-engineering--"I can't trust them, so they must be up to something!" Historically, I see no evidence for the kind of absolute control over reality by any mortal agency that the current theory implies.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:24 AM

HK,

We've been posting that he was dead for years. But this operation smells exactly like CIA BS, it's too pat, and there's no body, we suddenly lucked out?

For "Why do it?" You're right it helps Obama's re-election chances, but it does two other things:

If OBL were in Pakistan, and he did capture him there, he can use this as a justification for invading, which is otherwise just a blatantly treasonous act or a war crime.

The other is its a massive distraction that has totally kicked Turkey and Egypt switching sides to side with Iran off the front page.

Obama admitted twice during the campaign that he had lied, so don't think he's above lying. The question is whether he's using this to get us out of the war, or justify war, and we won't know that for a couple weeks. Depends on how he uses the information. To me, whether or not the information is true is really less relevant in the long run. I'm pretty sure it's not, but I'm waiting to what end Obama uses it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:45 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

So essentially we have a bunch of people saying he was 'probably' dead before, and a bunch of people saying they killed him now.

We have the fact that he was 'probably' very ill, and 'probably' would have died from his illnesses before he could be killed.

I can embrace skepticism. I wonder what causes people to vehemently declare this conspiracy theory as truth? Where is the skepticism? It seems one should be skeptical round-robbin in 360 degrees.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:15 AM

My doubts are simple: there was no independent confirmation of OBL's death before the alleged burial at sea. Lack of photographs doesn't bother me, I understand jerks would've used them to make him a martyr, I'm not a ghoul who wants to see a dead body, and that can be photoshopped anyway. But a second credible source to close the issue without question for us conspiracy minded folks would've been in the best interests of those in charge. There's simply no evidence or support given for the report of his death apart from say-so and the quick burial makes me suspicious.

I lack two pieces of information. The first is the Israeli confirmation from 2001 DT mentioned. The second is, why now? My belief in either theory is suspended until I have more information. The proposed scenarios (War with Pakistan, War with Iran) however could happen even if the current story is true.

HKCavalier is right in one way, of course this has nothing to do with the elections. The powers that be and their lobbyists, analysts, agenda factions and so on don't give three straws about elections. If a wanted policy is to be affected, it doesn't matter who is in office or even what they've said their platform is. All that matters is propaganda, and any proposal will eventually be twisted into the form they want when legislation is passed.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm with Cavalier. I don't put that much faith in people that they can be nearly as clever as some seem to think. And I don't see anything being done to allow us to invade Pakistan, it simply isn't going to happen.

I agree about the skepticism; it's always made me shake my head that conspiracy theorists seem so totally convinced of their theories, and don't show any skepticism at all about THEM. Which is I guess what makes conspiracy theorists; they distrust the news and the government(s) so completely that nothing can ever be what we're told, so the conspiracy makes more sense to them. Somebody out there must be gonna get us. I don't get it, since logically there should be skepticism of both "theories", but all I ever see is people (and I don't mean just here) providing all kinds of "reasons" why their theory is absolutely correct, with no questioning of the theory once they embrace it.

I knew the minute I heard about bin Laden's death that this would start up; I guess to a degree it's about that loss of innocence we were talking about. Once you start distrusting the government/news completely, I guess the instinct is to believe something else is true on about everything. At least maybe it will occupy the birthers for a while and get them off that shit!

I see NO reason to have kept his death a secret; I think Bush would have adored to crow to the world that he'd "got 'im"...why wait and let a (shudder) DEMOCRAT take the credit? They already had us scared enough to take chunks out of our civil liberties; they could have gone right on doing so by using al Qaeda, since they're disseparate groups acting independently and have been doing so for a long time. Doesn't make sense. To me anyway.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:35 AM

I don't know how much more obvious I can get with "I don't quite believe either story."

But, that said, policy doesn't change with either Democrats or Republicans in office, therefore it doesn't matter at all who reports OBL's death.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:36 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

So essentially we have a bunch of people saying he was 'probably' dead before, and a bunch of people saying they killed him now.

We have the fact that he was 'probably' very ill, and 'probably' would have died from his illnesses before he could be killed.

I can embrace skepticism. I wonder what causes people to vehemently declare this conspiracy theory as truth? Where is the skepticism? It seems one should be skeptical round-robbin in 360 degrees.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

I hear ya. In the end, I'm not sure it really matters whether he died Sunday or September 12, 2001. By confirming his death, we have effectively admitted that we won't have the IDEA of Bin Laden to hoist up as a national bogeyman anymore. I'll count that as a minor "win", and take it for that.

It doesn't end terrorism, it won't end fanaticism - in fact, there may be a short-term INCREASE in incidents in the aftermath of this announcement of his death.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am filled with many doubts. I doubt OBL was responsible for 9-11. I doubt that he was utterly uninvolved. I doubt that we just killed him. I also doubt that he died years ago. I doubt that he was paralyzed by illness. I doubt that he had no prognosis for improvement or recovery. I doubt that he could have recovered while on the run, to survive for a decade.

Doubt, doubt, doubt.

As recently as last month, I read an article that declared we were withholding billions from Pakistan.

-=-=-=-=-

I can easily see our man talking to their man, and saying, "We're done monkeying around. We need to resolve this situation now to facilitate policy. So, no more dough till we get what we want."

And I can see their man saying, "The situation is complicated. We can't be seen handing him over to you, or offering you any aid that appears too tangible or too real."

And I can see our man saying, "I understand. Hand him over. We'll start an investigation about your shoddy cooperation, we'll raise a bit of hell about it, and we'll question your friendship. You'll be seen as slime who plays both sides, fattening yourself at our expense."

And I can see their man nodding, "Just the way we like it. I'll have a location for you within the hour. Now... about that money?"

-=-=-=-=-=-

As a person of imagination, I can imagine all kinds of things. I can even come up with motives. Such as, we may want out of Afghanistan and Pakistan, but need a win to balance the loss in the public eye. Many people think Bin Laden is important. People think that's the reason we've got boots and bombs all over creation. It's silly, of course, but that's what they've been programmed with. So, I've got lots of pet theories and ideas.

But none of them are real. They're not real because I am surrounded by interesting curiosities, probablies, maybies, and why nots... but no hard evidence.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:45 AM

Quote:
but no hard evidence.

Agreed.

Why people keep addressing this to me, I haven't the foggiest. You asked a question, and I answered honestly.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:48 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

" I don't know how much more obvious I can get with "I don't quite believe either story."

Hello Byte,

I feel the same way, and I didn't mean to suggest that you do not. But like Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani, I am always flabbergasted when people declare the theory as unshakable fact. There are a lot more of them than I'd think, utterly skeptical of everything except their one thing. A thing based, usually, on a bag full of questions with no answers, rather than a bag full of answers.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 9:30 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

I'm not an expert on Islamic traditions, but don't they have some form of something about being buried within 24 hours of their death? Now, this asshole may not have deserved this kind of respect, but the way we treat our enemies says a lot about our character. That's why I don't make a big fuss over the lack of a body.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 9:47 AM

Not necessarily. There's really only a time frame on the bathing the body, and their version of a viewing for the body, and the amount of time people are allowed to publicly mourn (though not too much). I see no time frame given for taking the body to its burial location.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_funeral

Burial at sea is meant only as a last resort, the custom is all attempts should be made to bury the body in the ground.

But even that doesn't bother me. It's really the confirmation thing I have an issue with. No claim can be substantiated if only one person or group is making it.

Sorry Anthony. Guess I'm grumpy.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 11:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte: Apologies. I tend to hit "reply" to the last post in a thread, because I'm usually responding to more than one person, so it doesn't matter to which POST I'm responding. I'm guessing that's how you thought I was responding to you, which I wasn't. I was responding either generally or to the person I directed the remark. Mea culpa.

But I AM responding to your most recent. If that's the case, then I would say they dumped him at sea singularly to avoid a "shrine" where his body lay, and making the excuse that it's Muslim custom. Although, if there was no country which would accept the body...which is questionable to me. Neither would surprise me.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 11:21 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
HK,

We've been posting that he was dead for years. But this operation smells exactly like CIA BS, it's too pat, and there's no body, we suddenly lucked out?

Hey DT,

This is kinda the high strangeness of conversating with you. How is "we've been posting that he was dead for years" relevant? I know well what you've been posting for years. It troubles me that the fact you've been posting a thing for years implies that it is correct in any way.

"We suddenly lucked out?" Um. Yeah. Basically.

Quote:
For "Why do it?" You're right it helps Obama's re-election chances, but it does two other things:

If OBL were in Pakistan, and he did capture him there, he can use this as a justification for invading, which is otherwise just a blatantly treasonous act or a war crime.

The other is its a massive distraction that has totally kicked Turkey and Egypt switching sides to side with Iran off the front page.

I think you throw around "war crime" a little too liberally. Pakistan is *this* close to being a failed state, and therefore *barely* a sovereign nation at all. The situation is...complicated...to say the least.

AND...

We will not go to war with Pakistan. Not too long ago you were convinced that we were going to war with Iran and you pointed at all manner of "proof" and we are not going to war with Iran. Looks to me like you float a premise, and then throw everything and the kitchen sink at it to lend it credibility.

Quote:
Obama admitted twice during the campaign that he had lied, so don't think he's above lying. The question is whether he's using this to get us out of the war, or justify war, and we won't know that for a couple weeks. Depends on how he uses the information. To me, whether or not the information is true is really less relevant in the long run. I'm pretty sure it's not, but I'm waiting to what end Obama uses it.

And I'm not saying the man never lies. I'm saying this lie, that we've killed OBL is too big. It's like lying about going to the moon. And the reasons to tell this particular lie are way too specious for me to take them seriously at this point. Big Brother simply doesn't captures Emmanuel Goldstein.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:07 PM

Niki: Hmm. That's a good explanation. Still bugged by the lack of confirmation though. We really need that confirmation to prove anything. And that goes for either report.

HKCav: 1) People are already gearing up for a war with Pakistan, it seems accusations that Pakistan wasn't helping us and comments along the lines of they're next are rampant.

2) Just because we aren't at war with Iran doesn't mean we won't be in the future. Considering the state of relations between our countries, pressure from Israel because of the nuclear issue, the fact that Obama said that he wouldn't take a military option off the table, AND that it's a constant undercurrent in global politics, this wasn't an unreasonable thing to call at all.

3) Are you saying OBL wasn't an Emmanuel Goldstein?

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:27 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

For my own part, I consider any angry words we have for Pakistan to be something of a razzle-dazzle, and not at all indicative of our plans for the region. I do not think we're about to expand our war operations. I have no evidence either way, though.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:39 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/world/asia/04pakistan.html

I don't think this is just razzle-dazzle on either side. America is accusing and making threats, Pakistan is clearly feeling threatened, they're not doing anything for their case, and of course our mainstream media is doing it's best to blow the situation up.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:10 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
"Toughening its stand, the Pakistani government lashed out at the United States on Tuesday for the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, saying that the United States had made “an unauthorized unilateral action” that would be not be tolerated in the future."

"The statement was clearly an attempt by the Pakistani leadership to recover from a day of confusion and paralysis over how to respond to the embarrassment and humiliation that Bin Laden had been discovered in Pakistan and killed in an operation early Monday in which they had no part."

Hello,

Is this story an editorial? I hope so, otherwise this sort of opinionating in the article is out of place. Though it will risk the dismay of my fellow Heinlein fans, I freely offer the hyperbolic statement that I see this as evidence of continuing deterioration of news professionalism.

In any event, this is exactly the sort of response I'd expect Pakistan to give. I honestly don't see an escalation of tension, but rather the playing out of a script and necessary exclamation of bravado. "We are aghast at this invasion of our sovereign territory. Nobody else better do this. Did you get my good side?"

Honestly, if we make war with Pakistan, I'll be very surprised.

That may not be saying much. I've been surprised before. I certainly have no evidence or proof to support my opinion.

-Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:02 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I do not think we're about to expand our war operations.

I like to look at the general pattern of rhetoric. There is a period of priming the population with propaganda before taking action.

I see the propaganda. I see the priming. What kind of action they are priming for, I'm not sure. Americans are getting stirred up to support aggression against Iran and Pakistan and Libya. Americans are getting used to dehumanizing Muslim governments and peoples. Maybe this is just to erect some common enemy for political purposes, such as the propaganda against communism for 3 decades. Maybe this is a prelude an escalating military involvement in Middle Eastern countries. We would be blind not to consider the latter possibility seriously.

They are like dark clouds on the horizon. No, I can't say with 100% that it will rain here tomorrow. But I could say with relative confidence there is a high chance of precipitation somewhere nearby in the near future. Maybe it won't be a war with Pakistan this next year. But something militarily aggressive is going to be escalated in the middle east in the next few years.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:06 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
HKCav: 1) People are already gearing up for a war with Pakistan, it seems accusations that Pakistan wasn't helping us and comments along the lines of they're next are rampant.

From where I sit that is not gearing up for war at all. It's just posturing.

Quote:
2) Just because we aren't at war with Iran doesn't mean we won't be in the future. Considering the state of relations between our countries, pressure from Israel because of the nuclear issue, the fact that Obama said that he wouldn't take a military option off the table, AND that it's a constant undercurrent in global politics, this wasn't an unreasonable thing to call at all.

I was arguing with DT. He makes these claims as if they are indisputable fait accompli. I'm just tired of the alarmism. I do think it is unreasonable *to call* such a thing without serious proof. Otherwise we're no better than Chicken Little here.

And fer cryin' outloud, Obama saying he wouldn't "take a military option off the table" was forced upon him by the Clintons and the GOP 'cause anything short of a blunt statement of "maybe" would have been seen as weakness. He was backpeddling from his more honest statement that he would sit down and talk to our enemies without preconditions. He's always said he would pursue this thing with OBL. He's never said he'd go to war with Iran.

Quote:
3) Are you saying OBL wasn't an Emmanuel Goldstein?

I'm saying that if Big Brother is running the show, as the conspiracy implies, then OBL would still be "alive" "somewhere" "out there." Big Brother would not kill off such a useful character. Was he used as an Emmanuel Goldstein by the previous administration? You betcha. That OBL is now officially dead puts us somewhere other than the de facto Oceania implied by the conspiracy du jour.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/world/asia/04pakistan.html

I don't think this is just razzle-dazzle on either side. America is accusing and making threats, Pakistan is clearly feeling threatened, they're not doing anything for their case, and of course our mainstream media is doing it's best to blow the situation up.

Yes. I disagree with DT on a lot of things, but can't help but notice the dehumanizing rhetoric being thrown around seemingly everywhere right now. I had to turn off Maddow last night because of it. Does Pakistan have problems? Yup.

I'm not convinced we're going to invade Pakistan, but there's a disturbing amount of Pakistan-bashing going on, on both the right and the left, and I haven't seen anything like it since... well, since Libya. And before that, Iraq.

Doesn't mean we're going to war with them, but we certainly seem to be covering our bases. If we want an ally in Pakistan, we'd do well to grudgingly admit they "helped" us, at least a little bit, even if they really didn't.

Another thing that disturbs me is how much is being made of the idea that Bin Laden could hide out for a decade in Pakistan, and nobody ever seemed to notice, and so *OF COURSE* that means they were in on it.

So I have to ask: Was the U.S. government "in on" the Unabomber? Were we all "in on" D.B. Cooper? After all, they got away with it for years, right here in our own country, right? How could that happen?

Something else that bothers me is how much blame is being put on Pakistan because OBL hid out there. If we're blaming place for where he hid and where he came from, why haven't we invaded Saudi Arabia already? Most of the 9/11 hijackers (if you believe they existed at all) came from there, as did Bin Laden and his family's money.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:11 PM

All right, I concede its not guaranteed. But I'm going to continue being nervous, it's not really something I can help. I point out that if the Clintons pushed him into saying it, the Clintons are now a big part of his foreign policy.

Maybe having a war against an idea has eliminated the need for Emannuel Goldstein characters, except for periods when focus is needed.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:14 PM

Hmm.

I feel like I'm coming in for a lot of abuse here. I'm tempted to bow out altogether. First I think there are a couple of things I have to make clear.

It's possible that Bin laden was just killed, but more likely that Osama Bin Laden Jr was just killed (which of us would know?) It was explained to be Bin Laden's son's house, and it seems odd that Osama would suddenly have started dying his hair (the death photo hair is dark, not grey.)

1. Anthony, When people have looked into something a great deal, they tend to speak with more certainty. That does not mean that they are certain, or value their own intelligence more than others, it simply means they are working from a large base of information, and so they have more connecting dots, and feel more grounded. Again, it means their datapoints they would consider to be more solid, it doesn't make them right, especially in their conclusions, which are the least certain things of all. I agree that we should always doubt, but I tend to favor the data of those who spend time with it, over those who are spoon feeding or were spoon fed it. (For example, I disagree with PN's conclusions much more than his data, but I disagree with his data more than I do with Frem's data, etc.)

2. Niki, there's an obvious reason to keep Bin Laden's death "secret" not that it was secret, it was widely published, but to "not admit it" which is that the "hunt for bin laden" was "why we were there" in afgh, and without it, there would be less support for us being there. It's possible that this is Obama's current motive. I doubt it, but I'm adopting a wait and see on that point.

3. Mike, you have a point again about the "idea of bin laden" being killed.

4. HK, War crimes doesn't beging to cover it. I would go with "genocide" or even "holocaust" and have already in this thread. Our war, IMHO, now ranks as one of the ten worst in human history, and I think it's nowhere near completion. I think this is world war three.

Quote:
We will not go to war with Pakistan. Not too long ago you were convinced that we were going to war with Iran and you pointed at all manner of "proof" and we are not going to war with Iran.

This is just blatantly not so. I mean, this seems to be intentionally twisting my words to mischaracterize my position or what I have said. I'm very familiar with the situation and I have not changed re: our status in Iran.

We are, and have been, on the brink of war with Iran, a war which is now being fought elsewhere, because while we try to capture territory to surround Iran, we are having trouble doing it, and we must compromise with a Russian-controlled Caspian Sea. We're not going to invade and send our 140,000 guys against their 14 million. We're dumb, but no one is that dumb.

Occasionally we attack Iran, like last year, when we sacrificed three predator drones to try to take out the reactor. That test proved what we already suspected: Anything that crosses into Iranian airspace gets shot down.

That's what you might call a stalemate.

But I'm not sure you're grasping the situation at all. We ARE at war in Pakistan and have been since 2009. US officers command Pakistani troops. That's what Obama's "Fusion" force *IS*.

Another thing that NO ONE seems to be getting is that Obama, like Clinton, is much more averse to American boots on the ground than he is to war in general. I'm sure he doesn't like the US troop levels in Afgh, but he has no trouble bombing Libya.

The reasoning here is simple: Republicans are more likely to think of GI Joe as a Hero, and democrats are more likely to think of him as the Ugly American. It doesn't play well to the democratic liberal base to have a lot of American troops involved in ground combat.

Quote:
Big Brother simply doesn't captures Emmanuel Goldstein.

Too big to lie is like too big to fail. Compared to the lies of the 20th c., this one is a footnote, and I expect it to go down historically as such.

Perhaps a century from now people will debate when Bin Laden actually died, but it won't be considered a very important detail.

5. On the state of Pakistan:

a) It is a puppet govt. set up by the US, of course everything it says is coming off of a script.

b) locally, the borders of Pakistan are meaningless lines on a map drawn by the British Empire, and have nothing to do with political realities. Musharraf felt responsible for everyone inside that line. Zardari doesn't feel responsible for anyone inside that line.

c) by treaty the US is sworn to protect those people. That treaty was broken when we attacked them. I guess that's how much america's word is worth now. I have nothing but contempt left for a state that openly endorses torture, assassination and does not seem to believe in concepts such as fair trial.

Pakistan is not so much as a failed state as that it never was a state. It's a large block of central asia straddling the border of India and Persia, and it shows every sign of being so. It's also a place where 170 million people live.

We are involved at every level in a very large conflict. We have CIA, XE, JSOC, COINS everywhere in almost every nation in the region. Where we have US troops is not really important, US weapons are everywhere. We seem to be opposed by an alliance of Iran, Syria Turkey and now Egypt, and China, Russia, and India are waiting on the sidelines wondering if they want in. My guess is that Russia is most likely to meddle with us on a broad scale, but all three of them are likely to give us trouble in Pakistan. None of the Asian powers want to see the US with a powerbase in Asia, and they will do just about anything to see it not happen. They care much less what we do in N. Africa. China might be concerned over oil, I can see them arming the other side in strategic places.

Any way you look at it, it's a mess.

ETA: And yes, the last president made and passed on quite a mess. This is in part derived from that, but now it is a much larger mess.

ETA2: Ironically, I am agreeing again with Mike. The weathermen et al were conspiracies, there are conspiracies all the time. It's impossible to have organized crime without one. That doesn't mean everyone is in on it. You might have noticed that in my run down of Condi Rice and Richard Clarke in cooking up the official 9.11 story that I ever suggested that they were "in on it" or that either of them had anything to do with the attacks, I think that would be far fetched. I could be wrong, but I have zero reason to believe that that would be the case.

Obama may very well believe he just killed Osama Bin Laden. I do not. (except in a jr. sense.)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
All right, I concede its not guaranteed. But I'm going to continue being nervous, it's not really something I can help. I point out that if the Clintons pushed him into saying it, the Clintons are now a big part of his foreign policy.

Maybe having a war against an idea has eliminated the need for Emannuel Goldstein characters, except for periods when focus is needed.

Oh, and I'm going to agree with all of this as well. Emmanuel goldstein is an idea, but he's a personified idea, and that may be obsolete. It may be that, for the sake of morale, a victory of some sort was needed in order for the effort to continue at all..

As for the Clintons, remember that they are part of the Administration. When we said "Bush did this" we meant "The Bush Administration" by which we meant Cheney or Paulson or Gates. We almost never meant Bush, himself, who almost no one credited with the ability to make his own cheeseburger.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:22 PM

Sorry CTS, didn't see you there. You make good points. This storm has been brewing for a while. It's a bad idea to attack an enemy that you haven't dehumanized yet.

Personally, I expect the war to continue as it has, with many more US weapons than Americans, so that it will not become unpopular like Vietnam. I do expect it to become much larger than it has been.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:32 PM

Quote:
I feel like I'm coming in for a lot of abuse here. I'm tempted to bow out altogether. First I think there are a couple of things I have to make clear.

Don't bow out. I disagree with some of your analysis, but find most of it thought-provoking at the very least.

Forget about any "abuse" you feel headed your way; it's harmless.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
All right, I concede its not guaranteed. But I'm going to continue being nervous, it's not really something I can help. I point out that if the Clintons pushed him into saying it, the Clintons are now a big part of his foreign policy.

Maybe having a war against an idea has eliminated the need for Emannuel Goldstein characters, except for periods when focus is needed.

Oh, and I'm going to agree with all of this as well. Emmanuel goldstein is an idea, but he's a personified idea, and that may be obsolete. It may be that, for the sake of morale, a victory of some sort was needed in order for the effort to continue at all..

Very valid point, both of you. That's why the War on Terror is the perfect new Cold War - it's a war on an IDEA, and you can just plug in the baddie of the week to keep it going. We noticed similar things with the War on (some) Drugs, when we'd have Pablo Escobar, and now Mexican cartels, stand in as this week's guest stars.

We've pretty much agreed that the IDEA of Bin Laden is dead, but it's been pointed out repeatedly by the President and everyone else that the was is in no way over. I'm not convinced that that wasn't the whole idea all along.

We don't need *AN* Emmanuel Goldstein if we have a never-ending supply of them, all with provably different names and faces. We can always shift who we're hunting, and can even subtly shift the *why*, while at the same time never giving up the hunt, or the need for it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:54 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think its a fair thing to discuss Anthony, after all, they haven't given us any physical evidence one way or the other. I think they probably killed him like they said, but, given his poor health 10 years ago, it seems like he should have already been dead. But I'm willing to go with the official story, at least for now, but I do want some questions answered like how he's lived this long with such bad health (he's a bizillionaire, that could be how), and I wonder if they will release some sort of DNA info to prove it to the masses who may be unlikely to believe it without evidence of some kind. I too understand why they didn't want to take pictures, those would be all over and we'd be getting crap in Afghanistan, more then we're going to get already as backlash. But they need to show some evidence to appease people who aren't sure.

I hope we don't make war with Pakistan, that's the last thing we need, groan. I just want us to get out of Libya, finish up in Iraq, draw things to a close in Afghanistan (though that might still take a while). Then we can think about making more war, but not until then.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 4:15 PM

Odd that we never seem to think of making LESS war...

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 4:32 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Although we will probably never see it, the best proof of whether it was ben Laden or not would probably be in the computers, hard drives, and media recovered from the compound. If we start seeing reports of al Qaeda cells being taken down at a higher rate, I'd call that pretty good evidence that we got either ben Laden or his surrogate.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:20 PM

Mike

You make excellent points, and may I add Noriega to that list.

I'm going to segue to an earlier thread. I'm now having this flat earth argument in two different forums at once, and it's wasting my time. I've spent more time on this now than playing Angry Birds, and perhaps to less effect, so I think I'll go play angry birds.

But first, I wanted to meander into why we're here, having this argument. I feel not only that Bin Laden was already dead, but that all of us had already accepted that. I'm even arguing it with the guy who told me he had died at the time in 2001. I had to wonder.

I wasn't sure when I first heard the news, but as time went on, I noticed that anything officially done by Al Qaeda or for it was done by Zawahiri, and I thought, oh, who better would know that Bin Laden was dead than his doctor?

That's not why we're having this argument. Frem pointed out right away that anyone with access to Google could prove that he was dead in about 90 seconds with 20 sources to back them up. It's not that I'm a conspiracy theorist, or that I know something you don't, it's religion.

Yes, religion. We needed it. We needed a victory. We needed some sign of success in something that we were doing as a nation to have succeeded in what it was trying to do even if all it was trying to do was to kill a man.

That's why this argument is taking place, and that's why it's so much more ferocious than other arguments. It's not that the facts weigh heavy on any of us, they don't. They probably won't have any impact. But the emotions way heavy on us.

If we never get anything done, than what are we doing as a nation?

Well, at least today I got a laptop up and sort of working. Not sure what I'll do with it. I'd need a drive with windows on it to run stock charts. I'm gnawing it over. It seems that those Dell XPS systems didn't really have the specs to handle their 1920x1200 displays. It's pretty nice though. Solid build. Speaking of the war. I could tell when I was taking it apart to repair it, that it had been done before. I guess the military had given up on it because there were faster machines now, it made me feel slightly better that someone had repaired it before, that they weren't just giving up on a laptop the first time it got shot. Doesn't seem to be any advantage to a 2.4ghz processor. 333 ram is slow, but it doesn't make the machine slower than an Atom Netbook, it's about the same speed. Picture that, a solid build, and a 1920x1200 display, it's a good deal for $40, and about 1/2 hour of repairs.

So, here's my emotional input: For a little while, at least, there's hope that we will be out of this war.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"We don't need *AN* Emmanuel Goldstein if we have a never-ending supply of them, all with provably different names and faces. We can always shift who we're hunting, and can even subtly shift the *why*, while at the same time never giving up the hunt, or the need for it."

You think after the first two or three - OK - maybe seven or eight - people would get wise. I HOPE they would get wise, anyhoo.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 6:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"We don't need *AN* Emmanuel Goldstein if we have a never-ending supply of them, all with provably different names and faces. We can always shift who we're hunting, and can even subtly shift the *why*, while at the same time never giving up the hunt, or the need for it."

You think after the first two or three - OK - maybe seven or eight - people would get wise. I HOPE they would get wise, anyhoo.

That's why you keep shifting and adjusting - when people tire of the whole Islamic radical thing for a while, it will be something else, and then it will roll back around. Viet Cong, Baader-Meinhof, Red Brigades, IRA, Al Fatah, Hezbollah, Noriega, Contras, Death Squads, Sandinistas, Shining Path... There's always a threat, and it's always just over the horizon, coming to get you. Last year it was illegal aliens. This year it's illegal alien illegal drug cartels. Next year they'll all magically turn Muslim, or start burning American flags, or start gay marrying each other and having serial abortions (worst breakfast food EVER!) while joining a union!

But whatever your fear, whomever your enemy, America™ will protect you. And make your teeth whiter.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 6:03 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

The Nine Lives and Deaths of Usama Bin Laden:

FBI: "USAma Bin Laden deceased November 2001, had nothing to do with 9/11"
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

Washington Times report: Newly released Obama birth certificate forensic forgery
www.examiner.com/exopolitics-in-seattle/washington-times-report-newly-
released-obama-birth-certificate-forensic-forgery

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:43 PM

Bin Laden's voice heard on radio in Tora Bora fighting
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1365478/Bin
-Ladens-voice-heard-on-radio-in-Tora-Bora-fighting.html

Quote:
By David Wastell in Washington 12:01AM GMT 16 Dec 2001

AMERICAN intelligence agencies have positively identified the distinctive voice of Osama bin Laden giving orders to his troops in the mountains of Tora Bora.

Evidence that the terrorist leader has been personally directing al-Qa'eda forces confirms the widespread conviction that he is making his last stand in the cave complexes now under siege by Afghan, American and British forces.

Bin Laden's voice is said to have been broadcast on "very short-range radio", almost certainly a hand-held transmitter, picked up by an array of electronic eavesdropping devices used by special forces on the ground, spyplanes and satellites.

Al-Qa'eda fighters have also been heard responding directly to bin Laden, according to a report in the Washington Times, which quoted two unnamed Pentagon officials confirming that the terrorist leader had been overheard. His voice has been matched to previous recordings, the paper reported.

Although officials believe bin Laden must have known that he was likely to be overheard, the al-Qa'eda leader may have concluded that his only means of effectively commanding his forces in their final battle was to use radio.

We hit that radio, mind you - it's not that bloody hard when you have a place surrounded to use direction-and-range finding to lock in a transmission source and shell it.

Now, despite a good bit of retroactive ass covering it's a pretty well known fact he was on dialysis, but did it not occur to you that a portable unit requires fresh water to operate, and when we cut him and his goons off from their water supply in Tora Bora he was as good as done for anyway ?
The last confirmed tape, from Dec 7 2001 and probably filmed at Tora Bora, the old bastard looks about half dead, has extremely visible health degradation and appears to be struggling with severe physical infirmity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1729882.stm

So, we shelled the radio tent, which he was in because the larger radio kept the tent warm, and boy howdy did he like to hear himself talk, like most political leaders - he took some shrapnel either from the shell or the radio, and soon thereafter expired from respiratory failure.

This information was carried in Egyptian newspaper al-Wafd, Wed Dec 26 2001, Vol 15, No 4533.
You can find the screen image yourself easy enough, and translate it yourself or have that done, although I'd recommend against asking MEMRI to translate it given how "creative" most of theirs are.

So, you have his voice, confirmed on a radio that we shortly thereafter blew up - and then an obituary, and then, silence ?

Which goes on for quite some time, and then when folks start to wonder and question, a bunch of audio and video tapes come out, with debateable/ludicrous origins which upon close examination all are revealed as fakes or dubmixes of older content completely out of context for the language, and wholly inconsistent with his politics or beliefs up to that point.
The October 2004 tape was ludicrously, laughably pathetic, the perp in question didn't even look a damn thing like Osama, and after that fiasco.... nothing.
Not a goddamn thing ?
From a guy who liked to talk shit as much as Osama ?!
And now this - I call bullshit.

Especially when the story being told us keeps changing, the images (Thank you John, excellent work) have all been revealed as blatant photoshops, and there's ever so conveniently no body ?

No, I don't buy that, not for a minute.
Only reason I have mostly been pointedly ignoring the situation is that I don't see how it really matters any more, it's not gonna get us out of there, not gonna get us our freedoms back, and I am of the firm opinion when someone is causing a commotion in your front yard, the FIRST place you need to look is over your back fence.

Politically this is a bunch of HEY-LOOK! in one direction to pin the countries attention on one thing to keep it from something else, and I am waiting for the other shoe to drop, is what it is, watching ever so carefully while everyone else is dancing like little monkeys to the organ grinders tune on command.

I do believe this *MIGHT* be connected to the incident with "Raymond Davis" in Pakistan and Petraeus suddenly being swapped out with Panetta, the timing of the latter being extremely suspect in relation to recent events, but till there's actually something to work with - which there probably will be since you can't involve that many people without someone talking too much or dropping a stitch, all there is to go on at the moment is a very distinct odor of rodent.

And that's why I ain't said nothin yet - I wanna know, and I mean to find the fuck out, but at the moment it's mostly suspicion based around why this, why now, you understand ?

Still, every ounce of any kind of even half-respectable evidence points to Dec 16th 2001 as when Osama capped it, and for damn near a DECADE nothing whatever to much dispute it, and just about everything that did was proven out as lies - that's a pretty sure bet OBL was takin a dirt nap, you ask me.

Geezer makes an excellent point, which I feel needs be echoed since I do think it matters and is significant even if all the rest of this is bunk - IF this wasn't bullshit and we really did crack Qeada HQ...
(Despite whether OBL capped it now or then)
That'll be their ass, and you'd better believe the till-now-useless generals and PR flacks will showboat it like it was the motherfucking Ringling Bros as they try to roll them up, however halfassedly they do it.
But if they DON'T - if it's still a bunch of mealy mouthed weaselese for "we have no fucking idea", that's pretty indicative as well.

-Frem

Stand By For Second Post, I think I might *HAVE* the document DT is referring to earlier in the thread, lemme pull it and have a look.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:46 PM

DT, is this the piece you were referring to ?

Quote:
Israeli intelligence: Bin Laden is dead, heir has been chosen

SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Wednesday, October 16, 2002
TEL AVIV Osama Bin Laden appears to be dead but his colleagues have
decided that Al Qaida and its insurgency campaign against the United
States will continue, Israeli intelligence sources said.

Al Qaida terrorists have launched a new campaign of economic warfare and
are targeting shipping in the Middle East, according to U.S. intelligence
officials.

The Israeli sources said Israel and the United States assess that Bin
Laden probably died in the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan in
December. They said the emergence of new messages by Bin Laden are
probably fabrications, Middle East Newsline reported.

But Bin Laden's heir has been chosen and his colleagues have decided to
resume Al Qaida's offensive against the United States and Western allies,
the sources said.

They said the organization regards the United States as the main target
followed by Israel.
"In this case, it doesn't matter whether Bin Laden is alive or not," a
senior Israeli intelligence source said. "The organization goes on with
help from key people."

The sources said Al Qaida has already determined Bin Laden's heir. They
said the heir has not been identified, but is probably not Bin Laden's
son, Saad. Saad is said to be in his 20s and ranked within the top 20
members of Al Qaida.

Earlier this week, Bin Laden's deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, was said to have
released a videotape in which he claims that the Al Qaida leader is alive
and functioning. Bin Laden's voice was not heard on the tape.

A senior Bush administration economic official said last week that another
major Al Qaida attack anywhere in the world could have devastating
economic repercussions.

The FBI warned last week that Al Qaida may be preparing for a major
attack. The warning followed the release of an audio tape featuring the
voice of Zawahiri.

Bombings in Bali aimed at tourists, an attack on U.S. soldiers training in
Kuwait and the bombing of a French tanker in Yemen are signs of the new
campaign, Geostrategy-Direct.com reported in its Oct. 22 edition.

The first attack was carried out last week with the Al Qaida terrorist
attack on the French tanker Limburg, a 157,000-ton ultra large crude oil
carrier, that was bombed as it picked up a pilot before mooring at the
Yemeni port of al Shihr.

One crew member was killed and others were injured in the blast.

According to intelligence officials, a small boat approached at high speed
from the starboard side of the ship and detonated a large explosive
device.

A week earlier, the Office of Naval Intelligence issued an alert to ships
in the Middle East to be alert for Al Qaida terrorist attacks.

Cause that does sound like what you were referring to, but has been purged from the original source as far as I can tell.

Having a halfsie AI makes things like document comparison/retrieval a good bit simpler than it'd otherwise be.

-F

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Hi Kwicko

On consideration, I realized that there are some people like Rap who never tire of the chase, who are about as informed as a greyhound after the 'rabbit'. Whoohowdy, let's get binladenhusseinobamamuslimsunions in our strike for justicepeacevalueschristianityprofits ...

OTOH how often can one crank the demonizing-self-aggrandizing-rahrah-machine before sane people realize that they've been there before, not even two years ago, and the two years before that ...

Frem

I have no comment on whether this is a scam or real. Watching the Japanese and US governments and the IAEA blunder Fukushima (Fuku - wwwwhat? Isn't that so over?) while at the same time stonewalling the world - I realize there is very little that's beyond them at least in terms of intentions.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 8:41 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I remember similar news stories, and my friends and I have spent the past several years debating the likelihood of OBL's death. Most of us agreed, years ago, that he was probably dead.

Which wasn't a terribly original position, since every source that 'proves' his death also uses the terms 'probably' and 'likely.'

Unless the source is actually just an opinion piece run by a conspiracy site, in which case they aren't merely sure he's dead, they know how, when, why, and can name the brand of ice chips the government stored him in until the other night.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 9:02 PM

Well I can tell you one thing I have 100% confidence in, regarding this whole situation.

The lingering aroma of rodent is unmistakeable.

One can argue the nomenclature, species, location and identity of said rodent, but that it is there, is something I have absolute certainty of.

In lieu of direct evidence, all you have to go on is trust and credibility, but I am of the firm opinion your own olfactory examination concurs with mine.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, May 3, 2011 9:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well I can tell you one thing I have 100% confidence in, regarding this whole situation.

The lingering aroma of rodent is unmistakeable.

One can argue the nomenclature, species, location and identity of said rodent, but that it is there, is something I have absolute certainty of.

In lieu of direct evidence, all you have to go on is trust and credibility, but I am of the firm opinion your own olfactory examination concurs with mine.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Hello,

Well, yes, something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

In that, we agree.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well I can tell you one thing I have 100% confidence in, regarding this whole situation.

The lingering aroma of rodent is unmistakeable.

One can argue the nomenclature, species, location and identity of said rodent, but that it is there, is something I have absolute certainty of.

In lieu of direct evidence, all you have to go on is trust and credibility, but I am of the firm opinion your own olfactory examination concurs with mine.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Very much agreed.

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Hi Kwicko

On consideration, I realized that there are some people like Rap who never tire of the chase, who are about as informed as a greyhound after the 'rabbit'. Whoohowdy, let's get binladenhusseinobamamuslimsunions in our strike for justicepeacevalueschristianityprofits ...

OTOH how often can one crank the demonizing-self-aggrandizing-rahrah-machine before sane people realize that they've been there before, not even two years ago, and the two years before that ...

Frem

I have no comment on whether this is a scam or real. Watching the Japanese and US governments and the IAEA blunder Fukushima (Fuku - wwwwhat? Isn't that so over?) while at the same time stonewalling the world - I realize there is very little that's beyond them at least in terms of intentions.

Kiki - it seems one can crank said demon-maker about once every couple years. All one need do is shift the focus a bit and change some of the particulars of the demon image one wishes to project. It was David Koresh one year, Tim McVeigh another, and so the wheel goes.

**ETA: I *love* that it made a hotlink out of your "wh-wh-what" spelling. Wonder if anyone owns that web domain...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 3:54 AM

Just to interject some humor here, cause sometimes what can ya do but laugh...

Maybe we really *DID* kill him twice, only the second time it was zombie-osama, and the next Qeada tactic will be a zombie invasion.

In which case, fuck the SEALS, gimme Kohta Hirano!

Dude, a Japanese gun-geek, just IMAGINE how repressed that poor bastards gotta be.

-Frem
PS. R1 Release date is (tenative) June 28th, but Seraphim is having tech problems with the dubbing.
Y'all would prolly like it, classic sex-n-violence B-movie shlock.

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 8:24 AM

Frem,

Yes, thanks. It's a problem in an argument when you have a distinct memory of something but you can't call it up. I recall reading it on Haaretz, and then my searches on site:haaretz.com was not bringing anything up.

Curiously, a fair number of bookmarks I made on stories relating to Bin Laden's earlier demise only a few days ago are now linked to 404 pages. I suspect word went out to take down these sorts of reports.

You're winning the argument on the AI thing. Just as long as it's not made by you know who and co. I might give it a little more leeway

ETA: Pretty easy to hit a radio. It's broadcasting its location. A little triangulation... The guy who told me that the US had bombed Bin Laden later said he doubted the airstrike had killed him, that Bin Laden had managed to spite us by dying a couple weeks earlier, and that this was probably the source of the 12/13-12/26 discrepancy.

Kiki,

Mike is right, the people, collectively, never learn. People follow their leaders orders into war against people who mean them no ill, and the leaders are never in danger, only the peons who buy it die. This manipulation was detailed in almost every culture over 2000 years ago.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well I can tell you one thing I have 100% confidence in, regarding this whole situation.

The lingering aroma of rodent is unmistakeable.

One can argue the nomenclature, species, location and identity of said rodent, but that it is there, is something I have absolute certainty of.

In lieu of direct evidence, all you have to go on is trust and credibility, but I am of the firm opinion your own olfactory examination concurs with mine.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Just because that was pretty awesome.

I want to add something else. Anthony has a point that all information is tentative, and I concur. I would only append that by saying that all things are not equally tenuous.

To Frem's I would add just that all crime is motive means and opportunity, and while that applies to 9.11 itself, it applies to the survival and death of OBL. Who had a motive for keeping him alive? How about for killing him? We have to realized that not only can this be falsified because he's already dead, it could also be done if he was alive, but captive somewhere (I doubt this, I suspect he's dead) but that would be an alternative explanation for his silence, albeit an unlikely one.

As for motive, the Israeli piece seemed credible to me in part because they had a motive for him being alive, and little incentive to kill him off. The ultimate motive to keep him alive is that if he is dead, or imprisoned, and you can *be* him, then he *is* Emmanuel Goldstein. Remember, it's not just our own people who can be fooled by our sleight of hand, the enemy can be just as susceptible.

The motives for killing him off now are so myriad that it's probably just the balance of values. His value as a papermache opponent (there has to be a TV trope for this) had declined, and the need for a victory that boosted moral, justified the invasion of pakistan and justified torture (Notice the NYT credited torture for getting this info?) etc. just overwhelmed the value.

I actually considered that this particular trump card (so to speak) would be pulled by the Bush admin occurred to me many times. The one I most expected was in the 2004 re-election, I was anticipating almost the identical stunt to the one which just unfolded, but I gather that he had a gentlemen's agreement from Kerry to lose the election, so he didn't need to kill off E.G. who was still of use to him.

ETA: If we had zombies, we'd have used them already

ETA2: I see that rodent comment is going to go down as the most quoted one in FFF history.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 12:05 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte,

Quote:
People are already gearing up for a war with Pakistan

How come I’m not seeing this ANYWHERE?? I see anger, confusion, legislators saying we need to “re-evaluate” our relationship with Pakistan, but nowhere have I heard of ANYONE even suggesting we go to war with them. What am I missing? Also, what “threats” is America making? Not to give them money I’ve heard; not to trust them, certainly, but those aren’t threats which necessarily lead to war.

Quote:
People are already gearing up for a war with Pakistan

Quote:
From where I sit that is not gearing up for war at all. It's just posturing.

That’s how I see it, too: diplomatic posturing. It’s pretty much what we see from time to time, be it with North Korea, Iran, Russia, whatever. I’m glad to see there are others who aren’t so quick to rush to judgment that what’s said between nations has to lead to war.

I also agree with Cav that Obama’s statement was necessary, especially given what hay the GOP would have made of ANYTHING less insofar as “Democrats are soft on security” or somesuch. Just more of his usual cow-towing; we’ve seen enough of it by now that it’s not hard to understand.

I don’t find the Pakistan bashing unusual at all. They’ve been off-again, on-again “allies” for a long time now, and I think it’s only natural when this happened that people would be pissed off at them...something some are making great hay with, for numerous possible reasons.

Quote:
Was the U.S. government "in on" the Unabomber? Were we all "in on" D.B. Cooper? After all, they got away with it for years, right here in our own country, right? How could that happen?

A good point. I explained some of the reasons why not a lot (I any) questions would be asked about the house and who occupied it, but that seems to have gone unnoticed even here, much less in the (I would say more ignorant) wider media. I saw some reporter standing next to the compound walls and waving to show how high they were. They were almost EXACTLY the same height as the compound walls around our home in Afghanistan. We didn’t have barbed wire at the top, I will give you, but the height of the compound walls, in two countries where many, many people live behind equally high walls, made me grimace when I saw it. Sure, Americans aren’t used to compound walls, but every American and other foreigner in Kabul lived that way, except the Russians. They all lived within ONE building, also surrounded by high compound walls.

Byte, this saddens me:

Quote:
I'm going to continue being nervous, it's not really something I can help

If it’s something you can’t help, why waste the time and energy being nervous about it? That’s been my point when so many threads here have been focused on Muslim extremists, Islam, etc., etc. It’s not something that is likely to affect our individual lives, in fact the odds are strongly against it affecting ANY of us, so why obsess about it and focus on the worst?

DT, it’s been going back and forth whether they’ll release the photo of a dead bin Laden; today I hear they’re not going to. So where did you see one?

Quote:
the death photo hair is dark, not grey

Quote:
When people have looked into something a great deal, they tend to speak with more certainty

Not necessarily. Everything is subjective, so how much weight we put on one fact or another, and why, almost always is affected by our subjective beliefs. You yourself spoke of “cherry picking” what to believe...

Quote:
it means their datapoints they would consider to be more solid, it doesn't make them right, especially in their conclusions, which are the least certain things of all

I find that very confusing, since you toss around conclusions you’ve come to as if they ARE facts, things like starting a world war, for example.

As to hiding bin Laden’s death, I reject your theory out of hand. I maintain that Bush would have ADORED to trumpet bin Laden’s death, whether he had a hand in it or not, so he could take at least credit for it happening on his watch, while at the same time al Qaeda is fractured and independent enough of bin Laden that it’s still and excellent tool to stoke fear and keep us in both wars.

Quote:
I think this is world war three.

You’re entitled to you beliefs. But previously you have STATED that Obama’s starting the “next world war”, and it’s statements like that which bother me. I wish you WOULD more often say “I believe” or “it’s my opinion” rather than saying flat out “such-and-such is just FACT”...a prime example being what Cav said about you having posted bin Laden was dead previously. Statements like

Quote:
We are, and have been, on the brink of war with Iran, a war which is now being fought elsewhere, because while we try to capture territory to surround Iran, we are having trouble doing it, and we must compromise with a Russian-controlled Caspian Sea. We're not going to invade and send our 140,000 guys against their 14 million.

Your CONCLUSIONS, not fact per se.

Quote:
We ARE at war in Pakistan and have been since 2009. US officers command Pakistani troops.

This I a dichotomy. How can our officers command Pakistani troops if we’re at war with Pakistan?? That doesn’t make sense, in any context. War is where two forces FIGHT each other, not where one force commands the troops of the other force... You also say Pakistan’s government is a puppet government set up by the US. Again, then how can that put us at war with them? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Obviously there is no room in your thinking for the possibility that Obama doesn’t want to go to war, period, but got pressured into defending the rebellion in Iran by many factors, that he wants out of Iraq and Afghanistan but is too weak to stand fast and simply DO IT, that he’s found being President makes it a helluvalot harder to do what you WANT to do than he expected...which, by the way, he already said.

You made a remark somewhere that you thought Clarke and Rice were wrong, and gave the reason that there were so many out there researching the issue...I meant at the time to question that. You seem to be assuming both that all those out there “seeking truth” were honest, qualified researchers, and that Rice and Clarke came to their opinions WITHOUT any qualified researchers working for them. That’s a prime example of what bothers me; automatically granting conspiracy theorists with being honest truth seekers and ignoring that there might be trained, qualified researchers behind what someone in authority has said.

Quote:
Bush, himself, who almost no one credited with the ability to make his own cheeseburger

Wow. That’s a wild one. There are still MILLIONS of people who think Bush was not only intelligent, but a great President. We’ve got a couple right here...”almost no one” is quite a leap!

Riona,

Quote:
DNA info to prove it to the masses who may be unlikely to believe it without evidence of some kind

The problem is that no matter how much “proof” is shown, those who already believe it’s a fake will continue to believe it’s a fake, just like with birthers, truthers, and every other conspiracy theory. Have you ever seen anyone here admit any theory they espoused was wrong? Nor will you.

Quote:
Although we will probably never see it, the best proof of whether it was ben Laden or not would probably be in the computers, hard drives, and media recovered from the compound. If we start seeing reports of al Qaeda cells being taken down at a higher rate, I'd call that pretty good evidence that we got either ben Laden or his surrogate.

Excellent point, Geezer, and worth watching for.

DT,

Quote:
all of us had already accepted that

That may be how YOU FEEL, but that doesn’t necessarily make it true. How about a show of hands? Who believes bin Laden was killed long ago? Who believes he was just killed last week? Who believes he’s still alive? Let’s see how many fall into each category. Myself, until I have a valid reason to believe otherwise, I’ll accept he was killed last week, with reservations. I still have questions, but it’s not important enough for me to spend a lot of time on it.

Kiki

Quote:
OTOH how often can one crank the demonizing-self-aggrandizing-rahrah-machine before sane people realize that they've been there before, not even two years ago, and the two years before that

Forever. There’s always a new generation, a new “crop” of people who weren’t there last time, and they’re just as susceptible to fear as a controlling tactic as the ones before. Older people get cynical, but then they die, and the older they get, the less anyone listens to them. It’s the young who have the hot blood and whose hatred/fear can be pointed in any given direction. It hasn’t changed in my lifetimes, nor do I expect it to...

Oops, I see Mike made somewhat the same argument. And DT, who added some very valid points. Oh well: onward...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 12:28 PM