Mandatory Health Care? John Adams Said "It's the Law!" by Kwicko

Well, Kwicko, the asshole also signed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

So...in terms of representing the ideals of the founding fathers, despite being a founding father, he wasn't all there.

Thomas Jefferson ran against him precisely cause the guy pissed him off so much with the ASA and in betraying the principles for which they fought.

Also, with the Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen, it was limited to a specific industry with an especially high health risk. Only seamen had to pay the tax, which was used to construct hospitals at ports for their treatment. It would be like making soldiers pay a special tax to build VA hospitals. It's not *quite* the same spirit as a precedent for national health care.

Not that I necessarily agree with this guy, but here is a interesting argument on the other side of the issue.

http://www.tomwoods.com/blog/does-that-1798-act-make-obamacare-constit
utional/

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 4:53 AM

America loves a winner!

Leave it to Kwickie to totally misrepresent the story w/ a faulty headline.

SOP with the Left, it seems.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I thought the headline pretty much reflected the content. It didn't say "Founding Fathers" it said "John Adams"... so, can you point out to us HOW the headline was faulty?

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:42 AM

America loves a winner!

For the very reasons CTS cited, Sig.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 6:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Did the title SAY "Mandatory Health Care? Founding Fathers Said "It's the Law" For Everyone?

Nope, it said John Adams. It made no representation at all about all of the "Founding Fathers", just John Adams. It didn't say "everyone". It just said mandatory... as in, people were required to pay into it. Do I need to say that yet again? Because apparently you read as carelessly as you (ahem!) think.

If you have problems with the CONTENT of the post, feel free to take exception. But the title? C'mon man, that's just dumb. The title is accurate. Don't make it any worse by sticking with a bad point, just admit your mistake and move one.

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 6:43 AM

America loves a winner!

That's twice you brought up the Founders, when I never even said anything about that at all. Why are you trying to make something out of nothing ?

And then for you to go on talking about 'content' ? Really ? The title is clearly misleading, by trying to imply that Adams ( not the FOUNDERS ), by the passage of the 1 maritime act, meant to imply that ALL citizens should also be forced, by law , to pay into mandatory health care.

Good grief, stop trying to tilt at so many windmills.

HERE is what I was agreeing with CTS about..

Quote:

Also, with the Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen, it was limited to a specific industry with an especially high health risk. Only seamen had to pay the tax, which was used to construct hospitals at ports for their treatment.

Note, we're not talking about the general public here. "MANDATORY" healthcare for everyone ? NOT what Adams was promoting.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

That's twice you brought up the Founders, when I never even said anything about that at all. Why are you trying to make something out of nothing ?

And then for you to go on talking about 'content' ? Really ? The title is clearly misleading, by trying to imply that Adams ( not the FOUNDERS ), by the passage of the 1 maritime act, meant to imply that ALL citizens should also be forced, by law , to pay into mandatory health care.

How is it misleading? Because Adams did indeed pass a law requiring people to have health care? He did. Where did I ever state that Adams believed that ALL citizens should also be forced, by law, to pay into mandatory health care?

Quote:

Good grief, stop trying to tilt at so many windmills.

Says the dolt who just fell over from tilting at one too many...

Quote:

HERE is what I was agreeing with CTS about..

Quote:

Also, with the Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen, it was limited to a specific industry with an especially high health risk. Only seamen had to pay the tax, which was used to construct hospitals at ports for their treatment.

Note, we're not talking about the general public here. "MANDATORY" healthcare for everyone ? NOT what Adams was promoting.

Care to show me where I - or the article cited - said anything about "for everyone"?

Man, and you do like to go on about not attacking the poster of an article - at least when YOU post them, that is. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Many people who oppose the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act”, also known as ‘Obamacare’, say the Founding Fathers wouldn’t have wanted the Government to make health insurance mandatory for private employees.

This is simply not true.

Look up the meaning of the word 'mandatory', if you will.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Adj. 1. mandatory - required by rule; "in most schools physical education is compulsory"; "attendance is mandatory"; "required reading"
compulsory, required
obligatory - morally or legally constraining or binding; "attendance is obligatory"; "an obligatory contribution"

Hello,

I think this would fall under "an obligatory contribution." Though it would also be "required by rule."

--Anthony

ETA: This was taken from the online definition resource at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mandatory which provides helpful synonyms in its thesaurus.

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:22 AM

Still not seeing the words "for everyone" in there. It's okay for you to admit that you're making it up, inventing things that were never said. We're used to it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Still not seeing the words "for everyone" in there.

Rap thinks "mandatory" means everyone.

He apparently has never heard of mandatory for a group of people, and not mandatory for others.

You know, like mandatory for kids to go to school, but not mandatory for adults.

Or mandatory for phone businesses to pay excise taxes, but not mandatory for firemen.

Or mandatory for motorcyclists to wear helmets, but not mandatory for people who are walking.

Rap, here's a clue. Mandatory schooling doesn't mean EVERY human on the planet has to go to school. Doesn't make it any less mandatory.

The title says, "Mandatory Health Care." It WAS mandatory, just for seamen, but mandatory nonetheless. The govt used its federal power to force seamen to pay for health care, whether they liked it or not. The fact that it was limited to seamen doesn't make it any less mandatory.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:07 PM

America loves a winner!

It's funny to see you folks even waste time as you try to spin this and pretend you didn't mean what you did.

O Care is mandatory for who ? Just kids ? Just mariners ? No. EVERYONE. And as support for this view, the headlines reads - Mandatory Health Care? John Adams Said "It's the Law!" , clearly implying that even John Adams would have thought O-Care was a good idea.

It's a blatant distortion of facts, where HE was talking about mariners, and not the general public.

But keep spinning...

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well, when people say 'THE FOUNDING FATHERS wouldn’t have wanted the Government to make health insurance mandatory for private employees', they are making no exception. In this case, 'THE FOUNDING FATHERS' means all. Mandatory means mandatory, and private employees means an unspecified number of people in the category of privately employed.

Since ONE founding father - John Adams - did pass a law requiring exactly that, the statement 'THE FOUNDING FATHERS wouldn’t have wanted the Government to make health insurance mandatory for private employees' is false.

I can't believe you need this explained to you, but, well, it seems you do.

To change society, you have to change your participation in it. Otherwise, all you will get is more of the same.

EVERY SINGLE YEAR BETWEEN 1996 AND 2005 66% OF ALL FCDS CORPORATIONS PAID NO TAXES.
I think the current tax structure is about right for corporations. - Geezer

Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

We're not rich because we work for our money. Rich people make their money work for them. Mrs. Huxtable

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
...clearly implying that even John Adams would have thought O-Care was a good idea.

I didn't infer that Adams would have approved of O-Care from the title.

I inferred that Adams didn't have a problem with using the Govt to mandate a tax for health care. Which was true. He didn't.

I think your inference was wrong, not the title.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:39 PM

America loves a winner!

My inference is correct, if you read the title then the first paragraph of the article included.

There's really no other way TO infer it, actually.

This has become tedious and silly.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:42 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Well, when people say 'THE FOUNDING FATHERS wouldn’t have wanted the Government to make health insurance mandatory for private employees', they are making no exception. In this case, 'THE FOUNDING FATHERS' means all. Mandatory means mandatory, and private employees means an unspecified number of people in the category of privately employed.

Since ONE founding father - John Adams - did pass a law requiring exactly that, the statement 'THE FOUNDING FATHERS wouldn’t have wanted the Government to make health insurance mandatory for private employees' is false.

I can't believe you need this explained to you, but, well, it seems you do.

Did the title SAY "Mandatory Health Care? Founding Fathers Said "It's the Law" For Everyone?

Nope, it said John Adams . It made no representation at all about all of the "Founding Fathers", just John Adams

Then you and Sig need to chat amongst yourselves, as you two seem to disagree on this matter.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 1:23 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Do you not know how to read? Did you read the quoted article? What did it say about the Founding Fathers and mandatory health care? Tell me. That way I'll know 1) you know how to read and 2) you actually read it. Then we can discuss the logic of the argument.

Otherwise, once again, you are continuing your unbroken streak of someone no one really takes seriously, except perhaps as an interesting example of mental pathology.

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 1:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's funny to see you folks even waste time as you try to spin this and pretend you didn't mean what you did.

Not half as funny as it is to see you waste time trying to spin this and tell us all what we meant.

Didn't realize you were psychic and could read minds and devine what others meant when they wrote something. Hell, you usually can't even tell us what YOU mean!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 1:31 PM

America loves a winner!

I read it, but it seems you didn't, or have confused the article with something someone else said.... either way, it's funny to see you try to insult your way into winning this debate, where you've clearly lost it.

*snort*

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 1:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
My inference is correct, if you read the title then the first paragraph of the article included.

There's really no other way TO infer it, actually.

Sure there is. Several people have made the correct inference already: John Adams did not have a problem with governments mandating health care and using taxes to fund it. The article quite clearly states that Adams believed in mandating health care via taxation for a particular group of people. In fact, it said it so clearly that I didn't feel the need to reiterate it in the title, which I felt was already on the verge of being overlong and wordy.

The article didn't say "for everyone", and neither did I. You misread, you misunderstood, and now you're being an obstinate fool and refusing to admit your mistake.

Quote:

This has become tedious and silly.

Yes, you usually find things tedious and silly when you dig yourself in this deep on the losing end of an issue, and find you have no supportable position. Suddenly, that thing that you've spent a good chunk of your day on becomes "tedious and silly", and you don't have any time to waste on it. It's a pattern with you.

Now you'll stick to your pattern, call anyone who disagrees with you childish or intellectually dishonest, and then you'll start with the name-calling. "Moron"; "Sweetie", "Dear" - your usual litany of condescending insults whenever you find yourself bested and realize that you've embarrassed yourself yet again.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 1:52 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Deep sea fishermen still have the deadliest job.

Military vets have always had socialized medicine, and the feds have routinely gunned down and massacred vets in crowded city streets for daring to request the feds to honor that contract.

After WW1 vets were mowed down with gatlin guns in downtown Knoxville TN for daring to demand the feds pay their war pension.

General George Washington started this legal precedent by hanging soldiers at Valley Forge, who dared complaint about no pay, no food, no heat, no shoes. How dare they!

Today the feds chop the arms off vets to fit them into tiny coffins, or just dump them in landfills. Sure saves on healthcare costs.

As for civvies who get 100% disabled, anyone who pays max withholding on Social Security Medicare will get ZERO medical coverage under Medicare until 2.5 years after the injury -- such as stroke, heart attack, coma, arms/legs amputated. Obama hopes they die first, of course. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 3:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This has become tedious and silly.

Speaking of tedious and silly, I have to take a leave of absence from RWED again. Got a Frem-like project to tackle. My first time rescuing an abused kid. Wish me luck.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:46 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's funny to see you folks even waste time as you try to spin this and pretend you didn't mean what you did.

O Care is mandatory for who ? Just kids ? Just mariners ? No. EVERYONE. And as support for this view, the headlines reads - Mandatory Health Care? John Adams Said "It's the Law!" , clearly implying that even John Adams would have thought O-Care was a good idea.

It's a blatant distortion of facts, where HE was talking about mariners, and not the general public.

But keep spinning...

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

Hello,

It's possible that John Adams might have thought universal health care was a good idea if he could conceive of such a thing. He believed people needed government to take care of them, and this was a point of contention between him and some of the others.

In any event, the purpose of this thread was clearly to show that a precedent for mandatory health care was set by a founding father.

It would be easier to concede this point rather than 'spin' like a top.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:49 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Sky,

Good luck.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, I recall a rather lengthy conversation with rappy about UN resolutions which supersede each other. He didn't know that, apparently, and kept insisting that R 687 gave "us" ( What mean this 'we', Kimo Sabe?) the right to invade Iraq when it had been clearly superseded by R1441.

Gosh, to this day, he neither understands the word 'supersede' nor how it applies to the UN. No wonder he can't learn... he can never admit when he's wrong.

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Speaking of tedious and silly, I have to take a leave of absence from RWED again. Got a Frem-like project to tackle. My first time rescuing an abused kid. Wish me luck.

You'll need far, far more than luck - I wish instead that your compassion remains strong enough and deep enough to counter the horrors of secondary caregiver trauma.

-F

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Monday, November 14, 2011 2:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Oh CTS, do tell us about it. Where did you find them? Are they coming to live at your house? You can just write to me if you want if you can't tell everyone here, but I'm interested in knowing. I know nothing about foster care in Peru or what one has to do in that regard.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Oh CTS, do tell us about it. Where did you find them? Are they coming to live at your house?

It's a 17 year old girl. I tried to help her leave her home, but the best I could do was persuade the abusing mom to let her spend 7 hours a day at my house. It's a lot better than what she got before, so...

Still working on it.

On the secondary PTSD, it is an interesting balance between being smart about it and being shadowed by the same fear the abused kid suffers from. It's a new experience.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Are you homeschooling her the rest of the way or does she go to a regular school. As for expecting things to be a certain way, rightly or wrongly, for good or for bad, just take it one day at a time. She's nearly grown and so your influence may be limited, on the other hand it could have a profound impact. As for watching for mental health differences induced by trauma, or just emotional pain that accompanies all abuse, take it day by day, some people manage to weather intense storms with little residual damage, once the initial difficulties are addressed. Some don't fair as well, it all depends on the person, the type of abuse, what kind of genetic predispositions they have, how many positive influences they've had in life, their own tenacity etc. There are soooooo many variables here so being aware is good, but don't assume anything yet without more input.

Also I'm wondering if she's college bound, does she have plans and goals for the future that you can help her work towards? Best wishes for her.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:41 AM