Another shooting by MAL4PREZ

Regarding the argument that an armed populace would stop this kind of thing from happening:

Reports are widely varying right now. Updates from right after the shooting claim that there were multiple shooters, though it appears to have been just one. There are also claims by witnesses that the shooter had multiple guns, though I saw a police comment that he had just one. It'll be some time before we know what the hell actually happened.

Which just makes me think - in the moment of this kind of thing, in the extreme confusion and panic, how could it solve the problem for every random schmoe to have a gun? Granted, the shooter was stopped by police (thanks to TPTB for the two (?) cops involved and may they survive their wounds) but the police are trained for this and walked in knowing this was a violent situation. A random sikh who's just out for Sunday service (or a suburban drone who's hyped to catch a midnight movie opening) has no idea what's happening. If every one in these crowds had guns, it might work out that the crazy shooter is set down, but I bet a dozen innocents would be injured or killed as well.

And of course I have to say, because the NRA types will assume I said it if I don't spell it out clearly (and sometimes that doesn't even work!) I do NOT think that 100% gun control is the solution. I believe folks have the right to own guns, with reasonable limits. But I do not believe that a sixup in every hand will solve this problem.

Continuing to check the news... Obama called Walker. Sad that it takes something this awful to make D and R have a calm, supportive conversation.

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
...and may get you lefties to stop blaming righties before you learn the facts. Was this guy in the "Tea Party" or a left-wing wacko?

There have been several very clear statements made by right wing assholes on this site about how Muslims are terrorists, even something about killing a pregnant Muslim woman. (What was that quote, Mike?)

Or perhaps the zit can point out where the lefties on RWED have posted hate toward Muslims? Go on. Show me.

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 12:42 PM

Quote:
At least seven people are thought to have been killed, including a suspect, in another mass shooting in the United States, this time at a Sikh temple in the Milwaukee suburb of Oak Creek in the state of Wisconsin.

A police officer responded to an “unintelligible” emergency call at around 10.20 am, only to be shot several times on arrival. The officer, a 20-year police veteran, managed to shoot his assailant and is now in surgery.

The suspect is thought to be dead and remains at the scene outside the temple. It is thought four people have been killed inside the temple and two more outside.

‘‘We are treating it as a domestic terrorist incident and therefore the FBI has the resources,’’ Edwards said, explaining why agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation had joined the investigation.

‘‘Domestic terrorism is terrorism within the confines of the United States. It is within the United States,’’ he said, recounting how his officers had rushed to the scene of the attack on the suburban temple.

‘‘What we had happen is our officers responded to a 911 call. The officers stopped this from being worse than it could have been,’’ he said.
Armed police outside the temple.

Armed police outside the temple. Photo: AP

‘‘Our officers responded to the scene and did find a victim and we are dealing with that individual. A 20-year veteran was ambushed, shot multiple times. We expect him to recover,’’ Edwards said.

As news broke family and friends gathered outside the temple, a priest hiding in a bathroom was able to contact the son of a wounded victim by phone. Family, friends and media outside were warned not to call those who remained inside for fear their phones could give away their hiding places.

It was not until around 2.40pm US Central Time (5.30am this morning in Sydney), that police said they believed only one gunman was involved in the shooting, though the search of the temple continues.

Media have been asked not to show live footage of SWAT teams around the temple.

There is no known motive for the attack, but many Sikhs using social media say the believe the temple may have been targeted in the mistaken belief the Sikhs were Afghani Muslims.

When the attack began the congregation was beginning to gather for its Sunday worship, would have been attended by up to 500 people by 11am, followed by a community lunch in the early afternoon.

It is thought that at present the witnesses are being interviewed in the basement of the temple, while there are unconfirmed the assailant was a Caucasian male in his 30s.

It is thought three people, including the police officer, are being treated for gunshot wounds in hospital.

US President Barack Obama says he and first lady Michelle Obama are ‘‘deeply saddened’’ by the shooting.

In a statement issued by the White House, Obama tells the people of Oak Creek, Wisconsin that ‘‘the American people have them in our thoughts and prayers’’.

He stresses ‘‘how much our country has been enriched by Sikhs’’ whom he describes as ‘‘part of our broader American family’’.

‘‘Our hearts go out to the families and friends of those who were killed and wounded.’’

The president says his administration will provide ‘‘whatever support is necessary’’ to those investigating the shooting.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/seven-dead-after-shooting-at-sikh-templ
e-in-us-20120806-23og8.html#ixzz22iKz80xq

And before anyone gets carried away with some Muslim connection, these people are Sikhs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sikhism

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 1:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
And before anyone gets carried away with some Muslim connection, these people are Sikhs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sikhism

Thank you Magons. I did not mean to suggest with my last post that I don't know the difference, but I do know that Sikhs have been victims of harassment since 9-11 because of the culture of hatred and paranoia toward Muslims, and because Americans easily confuse Sikhs and Muslims.

In any case, it would be lovely if people would quit working so hard at creating this culture of fear. You know, like US Representatives accusing hard-working Americans of being terrorists just because of their religion.

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 1:20 PM

Oh i know you didn't. Kind of pre-empting a predictable conversation

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 1:32 PM

Yeah, I did. And I will continue to do so. I'm sick of people getting hated on because they aren't "real Americans". Even if that doesn't turn out to be the case here, look at the reaction of every one of the witnesses. They feel hunted. They feel persecuted. Their stories are already coming out, of how they have to quit wearing turbans and shave their beards just so they don't have to face hate on a daily basis. That sickens me.

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 1:55 PM

I wish I was half so good a person as this guy.

HuffPost blogger Simran Jeet Singh weighs in:

As a Sikh, I believe that people are inherently good. Our faith instills a sense of perpetual optimism, and our traditions teach us to always make the best of a tough situation.

Fear and negativity are foreign to our vocabulary. Sikhs are not a God-fearing people; we are God-loving.

The commitment to love and optimism shapes the way that Sikhs interact with their societies, and I'm concerned that becoming cynical and negative might lead us down a slippery slope.

So I am making a conscious decision. I am refusing to accept that human beings are malicious and hateful, and I am rejecting the notion that we need to live in fear.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/05/wisconsin-shooting-sikh-templ
e_n_1744256.html#liveblog

Clearly, I'm not!

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 2:22 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Shoot back. Pretty simple...

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 2:31 PM

Most people, even in your bizarro world, might not go to worship their god armed to the teeth.

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 3:17 PM

HKCAVALIER

Sorry folks, but the problem is hate. We all feel entitled to our hatred. We've twisted the spirit of Freedom of Speech to mean Freedom to Dehumanize. Hate is a far more destructive weapon than any gun. Guns are merely hate's little children. What do you think would happen if we killed off all these children of hate? Is hate gonna learn its lesson? Is hate gonna give up? Turn over a new leaf? Aw, hell no.

Wulf's answer is age old: they dehumanize you? Dehumanize 'em right back! Fight hate with hate and the only winner will be hate. Maybe we should stop defining America as the country in love with guns, and recognize that we are in love with hate. Guns are just the tokens of that great love we bear.

We must stop hating. Stop hating Muslims. Stop hating murderers. Stop hating victims. Stop hating the rich. Stop hating the poor. Stop hating Christians. Stop hating atheists. Stop hating Republicans. Stop hating Democrats. Stop hating parents. Stop hating children. Most of all, stop hating ourselves. Stop hating people, period.

What would be far more effective than any gun regulation right now would be for all of our elected repesentatives to come together and renounce hate. But we're so wedded to our hatred, that they'll ban every kind of gun imaginable before our leaders will infringe on their Sacred Right to Hate.

When do we start putting an end to hate? When the other guy stops hating first? When the people we hate "make it up to us?"

Y'all may think I'm being unrealistic, but I say to you that if you're trying to solve problems caused by hate without addressing hatred itself, you are living in a fantasy world.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 5:52 PM

It's kind of hard to make these sort of majestic changes, even if what you are saying is fundamentally true. You can't legislate around hatred and you can't implement society wide changes easily. It strikes me a bit like Bush's War on Terror, or the War on Drugs, seems to me that you are calling for a War on Hatred, equally as unachievable as the former.

You can't stop hatred, but you can limit the tools that people use to vent their hatred.
You can, maybe, start to think of strategies so that attention is focused on the victims and not on the perpetrator.
You can probably have conversations about what all this hate is about and work out whether it is more prevelant than in past times and maybe then look to some solutions.

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Monday, August 6, 2012 6:34 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sadly, I agree with Magons. It's not just hatred, tho'--hatred is born of fear, however invisible the fear may be. The fear is of the "other"...anyone different from you, and that's what politicians these days (and in previous times, I have no doubt) play on, as does the media by showing its results and talking about it.

So you have to go after fear to do anything about hate. Fear can be minimized somewhat with education; nobody knows anything about Sikhs, and they look different, so here comes that fear of the "other". Fear can BEST be countered by people knowing one another and recognizing our similarities. Unfortunately, people like the Sikhs make themselves targets by "looking" like Muslims, but what right do we have to ask them to change their looks--that makes no more sense than blaming women for being raped because of what clothes they wear.

The answer, to me, is people getting to know one another. As long as groups "cling to their own", that's harder to accomplish. At the same time, people cling to those like themselves to make THEM feel safer, in part. From the Sikhs to Quakers to all the varous "societies" I see around me, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, and on and on, each creating its own living space and clinging to "their own". At the same time, what right have we to say people shouldn't keep their own customs, worship where they choose and live with others of their faiths/nationalities/etc.? And who wants a homogenized world? So I see no answers there, either.

I guess the most I can hope for is our elected representatives not going out of their way to encourage fearing (and thus hating) the "other", but that's a fantasy in today's world, too, so...what's the answer?

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Monday, August 6, 2012 6:45 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

By the way, when it comes to pegging him as a D or an R, we don't know enough to do so. The best we have so far is

Quote:
The man who shot six people to death and wounded three others during a rampage at a Sikh temple in a Milwaukee suburb was an Army veteran who may have been a white supremacist, according to information from authorities and neighbors.
.....
According to Edwards, police have received information that the suspect "may have been involved in" the white supremacist movement, but he added it remains unconfirmed.
.....
Two neighbors of (the man) identified him in photos that showed him playing in the far-right punk band "End Apathy," and the nephew of the slain president of the Sikh temple said the attacker had a 9/11 tattoo on his arm.
.....
(The shooter) was born on Veterans Day in 1971, joined the Army in 1992 and left the service in 1998, said information from Army Spokesman George Wright.

According to a Pentagon official, (he) was discharged from military service in 1998 for "patterns of misconduct."

One law enforcement official said (he) legally owned the gun used in the shooting.
.....
The suspect had a criminal record, Edwards said. A background check showed (he) had separate convictions for DUI in Colorado in 1999 and for criminal mischief in Texas in 1994.
.....
A 9 mm semiautomatic pistol believed to have been used by the gunman was found at the scene, a law enforcement source with direct knowledge of the investigation said.

If these facts prove true, and given I've never known of any liberal involved in white supremacy groups, perhaps it isn't far out of line to say that he was at least right wing, yes?

I'm not up on these things, but is it normal for someone with a criminal background (albeit not related to gun violence and not serious crimes) to legally own a gun? I imagine it is, given the way these things work, and I'm sure our gun advocates will come back with the argument that he could have gotten his hands on one illegally, but I again reiterate that in my opinion, semiautomatic guns have no purpose but to kill people and we should do something about that. JMHO.

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Monday, August 6, 2012 7:54 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Found this further:

Quote:
Sikh temple shooter: decorated Army veteran on watchlist for 10 years

(The man) who officials say shot and killed six people in a shooting at a Sikh temple Sunday in Wisconsin, was a decorated Army veteran psychological warfare specialist and white supremacist who has been watched with concern by anti-hate groups for more than 10 years.

A member of a racist skinhead punk band, (he) had also tried to make purchases from the National Alliance, a neo-Nazi organization, according to Heidi Beirich, director of the the Intelligence Program at the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).

"We've been tracking him for more than a decade," says Ms. Beirich.

The SPLC has long warned of the dangerous ties between white supremacist groups and the US military. "We know there have been a lot of white supremacists in the military," Beirich adds.

The problem was a source of particular concern for the SPLC in mid-2000s, when the civil rights group warned the US military about a spate of extremist activity among US forces in 2006. At that time, the Pentagon "steadfastly denied that a problem existed and insisted that its ‘zero tolerance’ policy was sufficient to keep organized racists out of its ranks,” according to the SPLC.

The problem was that while the US military had banned “active participation” in extremist groups, it did not specify prohibitions against, for example, posting to white supremacist social media pages.

In November 2009, the US military changed its policy to specify that service members “must not actively advocate supremacist doctrine, ideology or causes” or “otherwise advance efforts to deprive individuals of their civil rights.”

The new rules further specified, according to the SPLC, that active participation included recruiting, fundraising, training, or distributing supremacist material, including online posts.

Three years earlier, in 2006, the SPLC had published “A few Bad Men,” a report noting that “large numbers” of neo-Nazi skinheads were joining the armed forces “to acquire combat and weapons training--skills that could be used to commit terrorist acts against targets in the US.”

As evidence of the danger these groups pose, the SPLC noted in a report noted that Matt Buschbacher, a Navy SEAL, attended a 2002 conference of the National Alliance. The group’s late leader was the author of the Turner Diaries, the race war novel used by Timothy McVeigh as the blueprint for the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.

Though the SPLC alerted military officials to Buschbacher’s activities, “he was allowed to complete his tour of duty in Iraq and even given an honorable discharge,” according to the SPLC.

(He) served as a psychological operations specialist in the US Army from April 1992 to October 1998. Before he left the Army at the rank of Specialist, he had received five Army Achievement Medals, two Army Good Conduct medals, and an Army Commendation Medal.

White Supremacist groups including the National Alliance continue to have active “outreach programs” to recruit members of the US military into their organizations, says Beirich.

“They have literally reached out to people from the military to come work for them,” Beirich adds, noting that the groups prize the fighting and training expertise that potential recruits develop in the US military.

“It is a really scary problem,” she says. “We know this stuff goes on.” http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2012/0806/Sikh-temple-shooter-de
corated-Army-veteran-on-watchlist-for-10-years

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Monday, August 6, 2012 10:44 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Guy sounds pretty much like Wulfie (well, except for the veteran part...).

Go figure.

Is anyone really surprised that this guy was a hardcore right-winger and Stormfront supporter?

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Monday, August 6, 2012 2:24 PM

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Monday, August 6, 2012 4:26 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Guy sounds pretty much like Wulfie (well, except for the veteran part...).

Go figure.

Is anyone really surprised that this guy was a hardcore right-winger and Stormfront supporter?

Nice, Kwick. You prove how loving and tolerant "liberals" are. IF, I start fighting a war.. you'll know it. And it won't be against the innocent... it will be against people like you.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Monday, August 6, 2012 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:

Nice, Kwick. You prove how loving and tolerant "liberals" are. IF, I start fighting a war.. you'll know it. And it won't be against the innocent... it will be against people like you.

Hunh. Which is why, when I see headlines about shootings, a part of my brain wonders if Wulfie will suddenly stop posting, then the feds and reporters will show up on fff looking through his posts for any hint as to why he cracked...

Posts like above show that people like Wulf are the problem. He puts "guilt" on anyone he doesn't like, and seems to want nothing more than to appoint himself judge, jury and executioner. Seriously, this guy is a nut. I just hope to goodness he's like Six and only posts this nonsense when he's drunk or moody. Maybe irl he's not so bad. Hopefully.

Good lord, and aren't you a parent, Wulf? *scared for your kid*

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Monday, August 6, 2012 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Guy sounds pretty much like Wulfie (well, except for the veteran part...).

Go figure.

Is anyone really surprised that this guy was a hardcore right-winger and Stormfront supporter?

Nice, Kwick. You prove how loving and tolerant "liberals" are. IF, I start fighting a war.. you'll know it. And it won't be against the innocent... it will be against people like you.

You mean, against the innocent.

Meanwhile, teabaglicans keep insisting that making it harder to vote will reduce voter fraud (which is all but nonexistent), but making it harder to get guns would not reduce mass killings (which are far more common than voter fraud).

That's the "logic" Wulfie and his kind operate under.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

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Monday, August 6, 2012 11:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Ahem...

The Sikh aren't really the type to carry guns, some of them carry swords or knives but even that is more a symbolic act than anything else and most who live in the US don't pack iron.

You have to understand, it's not in their NATURE to commit violence, from that aspect they're a lot like american hippie-pacifist-vegan types, but their mentality is closer to paladins, within their own cultural and belief systems, of course.

Ergo their first, in many cases ONLY, response would be to protect the innocent, either by quickly evacuating them, establishing barricades or in extremis shielding them with their own body - about the only proactive measure they'd have taken would be to distract the shooter to allow others to escape, it's a rare Sikh indeed who would stain his own soul with violence unless he had no other choice, and to do so while innocents were in the crossfire would be anathema to them.

Despite Shadow Vajrayana and Sikhis being almost diameterically opposed in aspect, I get along fairly well with them, they are very tolerant people (which means they're polite to me even when it burns) and staunch allies on the notion of human rights for all humans, instead of the privledged few.

Now, as to the shooter...

That sumbitch is hooked in with the same internal military cabal which supported Elohim City and abetted the Oklahoma bombing, just so you know.
There's a strong mighty-whitey-righty cult of these cretins in military service, but since they're so useful for slaughtering our so-called-enemies the military usually turns a blind eye.

It's kind of an open secret that they offered material and other support of the OKC bombing, but it being terribly inconvenient to bring that up no one did and instead pinned it on McVeigh without bothering to question the presence or provinence of the other bombs.

This is the same cult which is also hooked in with Erik Prince and his religious fanatics, who seem to think they're on some kind of fundamentalist crusade against Muslims and other middle eastern religions, and it says much that this kind of rightwing hatemonger was put in charge of pysops, which handled by saner people can be effective in getting them "on-side", but we didn't WANT them "on-side" cause that would remove the excuse for servicing the warfare-welfare machine, in fact it would remove a lot of excuses, and couldn't have that, could we ?

So yes, we do have psyops and intel people who's JOB it is to wind up the "enemy" and make them HATE us, so we have an excuse for eternal warfare, that handy "external threat" which all tyranny requires in order to keep people from questioning or addressing its behavior, sure.

Anyhows, as HKCav so aptly noted, it's more about hate than it is the weapons involved.
And when one considers the level of hatred imposed on our soldiers via the indoctrination process used to make them engines of destruction, the dehumanization of large blocks of people for administrative convenience - this kind of thing is inevitable, in fact it's a testament to the quality of the human spirit that it does not happen more often.

And no, banning guns wouldn't have helped in this one, nor would restrictions, since again, he was allied with a cult based within the military itself and could have got prettymuch anything he wanted or needed that way - although some might have been reluctant to so obviously implicate themselves, sure.

Mind you I been trying to hack that cult off at the knees for longer than most folk have been aware of its existence, and that whole Nicaruagua mess was part of it, since the folks I was allied to were quietly supporting the Sandanistas while the cult was supporting the fucking Contras, and the whole enterity of how awful that whole fiasco was may not be completely public, but a little investigation will show just how damaging having a collective of these punks within your own military-industrial-intel empire can be...
And of course putting them IN CHARGE is even worse, See Also: Bush presidency.

The 902nd MI, and NSA usually weigh in on the cultie side, the CIA plays its own game and whichever side benefits it the most, and JCOS/JCOPSCOM and the ISA usually weigh in against them.
Veritas Omnia Vincula Vincit!

Oh, worth noting the SPLC has their own dog in this fight as well, while they're useful at breaking the back of the mighty-whitey-righties, they're also deep in bed with the intel groups responsible for massive covert surveillence of the american public, harrassment of war protestors and the like.
They're prettymuch the public arm of our current variation on COINTELPRO.
Useful - but do not EVER trust them, and cooperation with them will always cost more than you can bear.

End of the day, this one is actually worthy of a deeper investigation, which sadly won't happen cause the folks who need investigating happen to be the bastards in charge of such investigations.

It was a need for an outside arm to handle problems of that nature (mostly false intelligence being handed to JCOS in order to provoke or sabotage conflicts) which caused the formation of the ISA and other more nebulous organisations to begin with, just so you know.

Of course, that brings into question the matter of responsibility.
Not just that of the shooter, but of the culture and social structures which created and enabled him.

And THAT folks, is to me a far, far more important issue than the hardware he may have used.

-Frem

PS. And yes, Wulfenwhiner is ABSOLUTELY typical of the breed, a near-perfect example in fact.
Now consider for a moment that THESE are the folks in charge of much of our military, our intel organisations, and a chunk of our government!
And folks wonder why things are so fucked up these days...

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 4:30 AM

CAVETROLL

What can you say about this Godwin-proof event? Accusing them of being Nazis would be sort of besides the point. Politically, you can't step on them, or you risk destroying free speech. You have to wait until they actually do something before you can act to stop them. As Frem points out, restricting weapons is no impediment if they have sympathizers tied into the military and intelligence communities.

I read more than one news story that said that the head of the Sikh temple was physically fighting with the gunman until he was killed. You have to admire his courage, selflessness and dedication to protect the innocents in the temple(?).

Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 5:57 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

A-mazing!

Quote:
IF, I start fighting a war.. you'll know it. And it won't be against the innocent... it will be against people like you.

So you're guilty--of what, exactly, Mike? Yes, that kind of mentality is sick and scary, and PRECISELY what this guy was thinking. They look Muslim, ergo they must be the enemy. Mike is a libeal, ergo he deserves death. People who are so filled with anger and hate will always find an outlet, unfortunately. It has nothing to do with reality, but there's no way you can ever help them understand otherwise!

And yeah, apparently the president of the temple was a hero:

Quote:
Amardeep Kaleka told Anderson Cooper people called to tell him that his father saved many lives Sunday.

Earlier Monday, the son said he was not surprised his father tried to stop the gunman at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin.

"It's an amazing act of heroism, but it's also exactly who he was," Amardeep Kaleka told CNN Milwaukee affiliate WTMJ. "There was no way in God's green Earth that he would allow somebody to come in and do that without trying his best to stop it."

Amardeep Kaleka told CNN that the FBI told him his father attacked the shooter in the lobby, resulting in a "blood struggle." A knife close to the victim's body showed blood on it, he said.

"From what we understand, he basically fought to the very end and suffered gunshot wounds while trying to take down the gunman," said Kanwardeep Singh Kaleka, Satwant's nephew.

The story also mentions:

Quote:
Several years ago, Satwant Singh Kaleka put a large American flag in the front of his yard, raising the eyebrows of his children, who thought it might be considered an eyesore.

Kaleka pointed out there were no homes nearby with flags, and he wanted to show that the United States was a land of opportunity, said his son, Amardeep Kaleka.

I heard the interview where the son said that, and they left something out. Given Sikhs had been attacked numerous times since 9/11, the son said his father told them that the flag was a way of protecting his family, that people who saw it would know they were good Americans. THEN he went on to say what was quoted in the story. Hmmm...

Too much of this. I suppose nothing we can do...who put up that long article I read, about how this "outlet" is something society is helping create...it was long and involved, but part of what I took away from it is that people get violent when they feel trapped, like slaves sort of, as well as the fact that we glorify war and the violence of soldiers as a good thing, so doing something like what he did both gives a sense of "striking out" at what we haven't the power to change and making one feel like a soldier in fightint "wrongs". It's a LOT more complex than that--whoever put up the link (apologies for forgetting who, I'd have to back out of this to look it up and I'm lazy), I wish you'd put up some of the pertinent parts, 'cuz I know I'm not explaining it properly. It IS very long and I didn't get all the way through, but some of what it had to say I found very interesting.

Also,

Quote:
The Rev. Paul Armstrong of Oak Creek Community United Methodist Church, site of a Monday evening prayer vigil, said the diverse array of faiths in the community have an opportunity to further deepen bonds. "There's a few of us who will be calling folks together to organize some more interfaith services," he told CNN.

"Being in mission to the world is something we share," Armstrong said of his faith and the Sikh community. "Their hospitality is wonderful. That is something the Christian community is called to do."

The vigil was held outdoors, and a survivor of the temple shooting spoke, according to Armstrong.

"The focus was to express our sorrow and that all of us can be lights of the world," he said.

Navdeep Singh, a policy adviser to the Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund, says Sikhs believe in freedom of religion, community service and inclusiveness. At temples, or gurdwaras, where Sikhs hold services, everyone is welcome.

"You can come and be equal," he says.

What a wonderful attitude, and how MUCH some of our "Christians" could learn from it...not to mention there's at least a chance the shooter thought he was a "good Christian". The major religion in America has become terribly prostituted to numerous "agendas" and has left behind all the religion's original teachings by so many, it's really sad. I wonder how many there are out there like the shooter who's only problem with what happened is that it's a shame they weren't actually Muslims?

Yes, it was a horrific act...for me, it kind of goes beyond my imagination while at the same time is becomig all too familiar. I guess in some ways I'm just waiting for the next one...

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 6:05 AM

America loves a winner!

White guy, loser, shoots and kills 6 = Domestic terrorism

Muslim officer shoots and kills 13, while yelling Allahu Akbar! = work place violence.

What happened to ' man - caused disaster ' ?

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 8:34 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

More is coming out about the shooter:

Quote:
Investigators spent Monday trying to figure out what led 40-year-old Wade Michael Page from repairing missiles for the Army to a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee, where he was killed by police at the end of a Sunday morning rampage.

The shaven-headed Page, whose tattoos included the Celtic cross adopted by white supremacist groups, had been the front man for a white-power rock band called "End Apathy" for several years. Two former neighbors identified him from photos on the band's MySpace page.

Christopher Robillard of Oregon, who described Page as "my closest friend" in the service more than a decade ago, said Page was pushed out of the military for showing up to formation drunk.

He described Page as "a very kind, very smart individual -- loved his friends. One of those guys with a soft spot." But even then, Page "was involved with white supremacy," Robillard said.

"He would talk about the racial holy war, like he wanted it to come," Robillard said. "But to me, he didn't seem like the type of person to go out and hurt people."

Page moved back to Denver after his discharge, where he had a tough time in civilian life "and was basically living on the street," Robillard said. It was during that period that Page joined a "racist band" and started to get his body inked, his Army buddy told CNN.

"I asked him why he was aligning himself with this stuff," Robillard said. "He really didn't answer. He would duck it."

End Apathy played gigs in North Carolina and in the Midwest, he said. While Page shared the stage with many similar bands, he wasn't a movement leader and doesn't appear to have been involved in any criminal acts, said Mark Potok, who tracks hate groups for the Southern Poverty Law Center in Alabama.

Nevertheless, Potok called Page "a neo-Nazi skinhead in the very thick of the white supremacist movement."

In a statement posted on its website Monday, the band's imprint, Label 56, said it had removed "all images and products related to End Apathy."

"We do not wish to profit from this tragedy financially or with publicity," it added. "In closing, please do not take what Wade did as honorable or respectable and please do not think we are all like that."

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:57 PM

"We have to do something about gun controls. Police license okay for hunting rifle or pistol for anyone without crim or pscho record. No more"

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

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Friday, August 10, 2012 2:45 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And of course I have to say, because the NRA types will assume I said it if I don't spell it out clearly (and sometimes that doesn't even work!) I do NOT think that 100% gun control is the solution. I believe folks have the right to own guns, with reasonable limits. But I do not believe that a sixup in every hand will solve this problem.

I dunno... Doesn't seem to be a ton of violent crime in Indiana compared to other states.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0304.pdf

Illinois sure has a lot more and is one of the only places in the US you can't conceal and carry. Don't even get me started on the backwards mentality of D.C. and their 31.4 people murdered each year per 100,000 people, compared to Indiana's 5.7.

In 2 days I'm eligible for getting a conceal and carry permit. I might get it just to have it, but I still won't carry my piece around, at least until I've had more training and I believe that it can be helpful rather than nothing but a potentially dangerous eminence front.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 8:31 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

That's awful, how can people hate that much?

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise. "A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
That's awful, how can people hate that much?

Rodgers and Hammerstein had it figured out.

"You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!"

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:24 AM

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 5:04 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Geezer, excellently said, and it answers the question perfectly. I wonder how much of it ends up being hate born of fear, and how much just parroted hate from the "teachers". Do people just learn to hate, or do they subconsciously pick up on the fear and learn to hate because of THAT?

Mike, yeah, I kinda wondered about that too, given how MANY protest signs by the right are misspelled...far more than those from the left. Given what we've seen far more is hate (which again, always has at its base fear), homophobia, racism, anger, negativity, etc., from the right, that might well be a good supposition. Or theory at least...

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:06 PM

America loves a winner!

Left wing nut case w/ a gun ... say it ain't so !

Sadly, it is.

Quote:

The alleged shooter, whose name was not released to media by mid-afternoon, entered the conservative group’s downtown Washington building and opened fire. D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier called the guard a hero for subduing the shooter who allegedly expressed disagreement with FRC’s views. Investigators have not determined a motive.

“We don’t know enough about him or his circumstances to determine what his connection is to this group [the research council] or his mental state, or what he was doing or thinking of doing,” said James McJunkin, the head of the FBI’s Washington Field Office. “So we’re going to try to sort this all out, pull the evidence together, do all the interviews we can.”

A law enforcement official said the gunman carried a bag containing a Chick-Fil-A bag; the fast-food company’s leader recently expressed views against same-sex marriage similar to those embraced by FRC.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/family-research-cou
ncil-shooting-injures-security-guard-at-dc-office/2012/08/15/037223a0-e71a-11e1-8f62-58260e3940a0_blog.html

Once again, we see how the Left are the very things they accuse the Right of being, over and over again.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:31 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Left wing nut case w/ a gun ... say it ain't so !

Sadly, it is.

But reportedly environmentally conscious. He apparently parked his car at a suburban Metro station and took the subway downtown to his shooting.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:41 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Left wing nut case w/ a gun ... say it ain't so !

Sadly, it is.

But reportedly environmentally conscious. He apparently parked his car at a suburban Metro station and took the subway downtown to his shooting.

Does it surprise anyone that there are those on the Left who actually are praising what this guy did ( and tried to do ) ? Saying that the FRC " had it coming " ???

“Wonder how long it’ll take for the GOP to politicize a shooting at FRC?” posted one tweeter. - http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/314113/leo-johnson-frc-and-best-a
nd-worst-human-nature-gina-r-dalfonzo

Yes, because the LEFT never goes off the rail and immediately blames the Right for any shootings, especially when the shootings have nothing what so ever to do w/ the Right, at all!!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Left wing nut case w/ a gun ... say it ain't so !

Sadly, it is.

Quote:

The alleged shooter, whose name was not released to media by mid-afternoon, entered the conservative group’s downtown Washington building and opened fire. D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier called the guard a hero for subduing the shooter who allegedly expressed disagreement with FRC’s views. Investigators have not determined a motive.

“We don’t know enough about him or his circumstances to determine what his connection is to this group [the research council] or his mental state, or what he was doing or thinking of doing,” said James McJunkin, the head of the FBI’s Washington Field Office. “So we’re going to try to sort this all out, pull the evidence together, do all the interviews we can.”

A law enforcement official said the gunman carried a bag containing a Chick-Fil-A bag; the fast-food company’s leader recently expressed views against same-sex marriage similar to those embraced by FRC.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/family-research-cou
ncil-shooting-injures-security-guard-at-dc-office/2012/08/15/037223a0-e71a-11e1-8f62-58260e3940a0_blog.html

Once again, we see how the Left are the very things they accuse the Right of being, over and over again.

Really? The Texas A&M shooter who shot at least 5 people was a right-wing gun nut who listed Michele Bachmann as one of the people who inspired him.

So aren't you on the right being the very thing you accuse the left of being, over and over and over again?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:57 PM

America loves a winner!

BULLSHIT !

AZ shooter was painted by the Left as a TEA party supporter - he wasn't.

Times Square attempted bomber was called by Mayor Bloomberg as being upset over healthcare - he wasn't.

Aurora shooter was , predictably, reported on LIVE TV by the MSM as being what ? A TEA party member ! - he wasn't.

You want to try to paint this nut near aTm as some sort of conservative zealot making a political point, , when he clearly wasn't, but yet you blindly ignore the FRC shooter ?

UN-FUCKING-believable!

On Caffall...
"He was crazy as hell," Richard Weaver, gunman Thomas Caffall's stepfather, told Houston station KPRC television.

He wasn't making any sort of political statement, you moron... the guy opened fire on a cop who was serving him an eviction notice !

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:06 PM

CHRISISALL

Rappy Rappy Rappy, your calm, remember your calm.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:54 PM

Yup, he opened fire on a constable, and he was apparently a right-wing zealot.

It's funny, really - when a Muslim does it, it has to be terrorism. When a black guy does it, it has to be because he's a thug or a gang member. But when a right-wing white guy does it...

... Oh, he's "mentally disturbed".

So what is it that you think confirms his craziness? The shootings, or the right-wing ass-hattery? Or does the latter tend to lead into the former?

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:56 PM

Quote:

“Wonder how long it’ll take for the GOP to politicize a shooting at FRC?” posted one tweeter.

Looks like just a matter of a couple hours.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:12 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup, he opened fire on a constable, and he was apparently a right-wing zealot.

It's funny, really - when a Muslim does it, it has to be terrorism. When a black guy does it, it has to be because he's a thug or a gang member. But when a right-wing white guy does it...

... Oh, he's "mentally disturbed".

So what is it that you think confirms his craziness? The shootings, or the right-wing ass-hattery? Or does the latter tend to lead into the former?

Like Bloomberg, your CLAIM that his shooting was in any way connected to his politics is purely fictional.

Meanwhile, the Left winger who tried and FAILED to shoot up the FRC , after getting his gun TAKEN from him, then cries...

"Don't shoot me; It's not about you, it's about what this place stands for."!

The Left shows themselves to be exactly who they claim the right to be... angry little men w/ small penises.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:13 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

“Wonder how long it’ll take for the GOP to politicize a shooting at FRC?” posted one tweeter.

Looks like just a matter of a couple hours.

No, asshole, the one who made it POLITICAL was the shooter.

Good fucking god, you're an idiot.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:15 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Rappy Rappy Rappy, your calm, remember your calm.

Pointless, Chrissy. Left wingers, faced with the facts, will still refuse to acknowledge reality, no matter how calm I remain.

Like Jayne says... I like smackin' 'em.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:37 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Pointless, Chrissy. Left wingers, faced with the facts, will still refuse to acknowledge reality, no matter how calm I remain.

Rappy, your calm, much like your reason, is severely damaged.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So what is it that you think confirms his craziness? The shootings, or the right-wing ass-hattery? Or does the latter tend to lead into the former?

Yes, it does.
Which is why I consider them insane.

-F

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 5:00 PM

This is from the A&M shooter's facebook page:

Look who he finds inspirational. Snipers, Glenn Beck, and Reagan. Those are the people he found inspiring, and who inspired him to shoot five people, killing a constable.

Look at his "Likes" and tell me he wasn't a right-winger. "Sarah Palin for President 2012"?

http://www.facebook.com/thomas.caffall/favorites

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 5:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I like smackin' 'em.

Looks like you'll have to keep smackin' your own, tiny.

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Thursday, August 16, 2012 12:38 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Look at his "Likes" and tell me he wasn't a right-winger. "Sarah Palin for President 2012"?

http://www.facebook.com/thomas.caffall/favorites

False conclusion you're attempting to make, that this had anything to do w/ his shooting spree.

He also liked Kara Thrace, Zoe Graystone ,Number Six, Emily Dickenson, Eureka, Warehouse 13, Harry Potter...OMG!!!

HE ALSO LIKED FIREFLY!!!!!!!!!

So, nutcase near A&M was more likely having a bad day, pissed off at being evicted , where as the FRC shooter actually went down there w/ the specific intent to shoot those who had their own view point, different from his, and to make a political statement.

"Don't shoot me; It's not about you, it's about what this place stands for."... and because he didn't agree with them, he thought they DESERVED to get shot!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 16, 2012 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Look at his "Likes" and tell me he wasn't a right-winger. "Sarah Palin for President 2012"?

http://www.facebook.com/thomas.caffall/favorites

False conclusion you're attempting to make, that this had anything to do w/ his shooting spree.

HE ALSO LIKED FIREFLY!!!!!!!!!

Well, YOU also like Firefly, and you're both a right-wing nutjob teabagger AND insane.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, August 16, 2012 12:54 AM