Subway Death by ANTHONYT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Subway Death

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Sunday, December 9, 2012 08:51
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Thursday, December 6, 2012 3:55 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Recently, a person was pushed onto the subway tracks. Onlookers looked. Someone took pictures. I have yet to hear about anyone trying to save the poor soul.

But as angry as that last bit makes me, I wonder if I'd have done better. Not out of any sense of malice or apathy, mind you. I just wonder if I'd have been shocked to see it, and stared on in ineffectuality until the critical moment.

I do hope that if I had the presence of mind to use a camera, I'd be able to reach out and try to help instead. Perhaps rouse some other bystanders from their stupefaction.

But who can say for sure?

What are your thoughts?

--Anthony

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 4:21 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I've heard similar stories with a very different ending, a while back someone fell onto the tracks and someone jumped out and saved them, I guess this time it didn't go so well. :(

I think those sorts of things are just sudden, instinct, the hero who saves someone often just acts, they haven't really thought about it in detail before, its just who they are without forethought.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 5:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Yeah, I heard of this too, as well as the earlier incident, where a man did jump down and save the commuter's life.

Dunno the particulars of this most recent case, like how soon did the person hit the tracks before the train pulled in. WAS there enough time for someone to jump down, get the other person to their feet, ( assuming they weren't injured, could walk ) and get them BOTH to safety?

You can snap a photo a lot quicker, I'm guessing.

Perhaps the onlookers wondered " Is this really happening ? ", and maybe was it some sort of stunt, a staged protest, of some sort ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 7, 2012 2:45 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

The photographer, R. Umar Abbasi has said that he need not intend to capture the picture but was using the flash of his camera to try and signal the train driver. He also has said that he could not have reached Mr. Han in any circumstance.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/12/05/166558026/ny-post-photo
grapher-i-was-too-far-away-to-reach-man-hit-by-train

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Friday, December 7, 2012 3:49 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Nick,

I read the account, but find it unconvincing.

It seems more likely that the photographer couldn't think of anything effective in the time allotted, rather than that his only option was to snap photos of the event, 'accidentally' capturing the victim's final moments.

I feel very much that the 'ball was dropped' amongst bystanders here. Suggesting otherwise is probably a bit of dishonesty designed to shield themselves from the horrible truth that nobody even tried to do anything effective. I do not know whether, in that same instant of surprise, with mere seconds to act, I would have had the presence of mind to do any better.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 7, 2012 4:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

I feel very much that the 'ball was dropped' amongst bystanders here. Suggesting otherwise is probably a bit of dishonesty designed to shield themselves from the horrible truth that nobody even tried to do anything effective. I do not know whether, in that same instant of surprise, with mere seconds to act, I would have had the presence of mind to do any better.

What we see on TV or the movies isn't always how things are in real life. Shocking, I know. Of those who could actually jump down, knowing which rail NOT to touch, and be able to help lift another person up, while an oncoming train is pulling into the station... the # of those capable of pulling off that feat, w/ out getting themselves killed as well, might have been very few. If any.

Lotta variables there, too many, to so casually pass judgement on what 'should' have been done. It's a tragic event. Heartless, too, as well as criminal.

Did they even catch the one who pushed the victim to the tracks ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 7, 2012 4:59 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

The photographer was on assignment - he was carrying over 20 lbs of equipment. In addition, the man who pushed Mr Han onto the tracks was aggressive towards the photographer, causing him to back up to the wall. As to whether or not the flash-warning worked, the subway conductor said he saw the flashes and did slow down b/c of them - just, unfortunately, not enough, not soon enough. It almost worked.

But even if all that weren't true, I still don't blame the photographer any more or less than I do the other bystanders who didn't have equipment, who were closer, and who also failed to help. I'm not sure why he specifically is the focus of so much attention and angst.

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Friday, December 7, 2012 6:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There are two interesting observations made by people experienced with emergencies. I found one in (of all things) Popular Mechanics ("How to Survive Anything for a Day, a Week, or Forever" edition). What this person said was,

People do not respond to what is happening in front of them, they respond to the models in their head. If something unexpected happens, they need precious moments to incorporate the observation and form a model. Thefirst thing that happens is that people are often stuck in This can't be happening for twenty seconds or more. (ALSO: Get a chainsaw. Most useful in household/ neighborhood emergencies. But I digress....)

The second observation is by the Red Cross. Having parsed many emergencies, they noted a "bystander effect". That is that many people will stand as observers (this can't be happening/ I don't know what to do) until someone.... ANYONE... steps forward to act. Once ONE person steps forward, others follow. (This in part of their emergency/ fist aid training. Red Cross said: Be that person. Do something, anything, and it will break the bystander effect.) \

Having been witness to several emergencies, I have to say... the best response was by off-duty trained professionals. That they ran to the overturned van/ car was not because they were quicker on their mental feet, but because their training provided a quicker pathway.

As a scifi reference, the best encapsulation of emergency response was in "The Widget, the Wadget, and Boff".... when you do instantaneous calculations of the situation and your history and your capacities, and you respond in the most effective manner possible.

I'm not sure that the photographer deserves commendation... he did, after all, hustle his photos to a magazine. But he surely deserves less opprobrium than the magazine which published the photos after due monetary consideration. (Long live capitalism.)

The Widget, the Wadget, and Boff
http://www.genrebusters.com/print/review_widget.htm

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Friday, December 7, 2012 5:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Siggys assessment is spot-on, but I've always felt some part of it is that the KIND of people who would immediately rush in generally wind up trained professionals, if that inclination doesn't get em waxed before then.

One of the edges in my work is that my reaction to a "situation" appears damn near pre-emptive, but that's just "having a plan on the shelf" in a mental sense (i.e. training = quicker mental pathway), and able to access it without the multiple seconds of "WTF?!" in combination with awareness of a situation unfolding BEFORE it goes critical.
I would have probably been two steps in that direction before Han even hit the tracks, but whether or not that woulda mattered much I couldn't tell you.

Depending on the situation, "bystander effect" can actually be beneficial sometimes cause the first rule of crisis response is NOT adding more casualties, and charging in headfirst is often a recipe for exactly that - somewhat hypocritical for me to say since it's my first reflex, but there it is.

The other upshot to "bystander effect" is that if someone who at least APPEARS to know what they're doing jumps into a situation and starts calling orders in an authoritative voice most of them will snap to and aid in any way they can - I think that several second "WTF?!" is actually a key survival mechanism because of the first rule, locking up in place is very often the CORRECT response.

-F

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Saturday, December 8, 2012 5:23 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I just want to third the post.

People do a few things:
1) assess the situation
2) test the systems
3) act/ do not act.

1) Unless you've experienced something before (and learning/ training is also a type of experience), it takes time to simply comprehend what's going on. In addition, your repertoire of potential responses to the situation is governed by your experience. 2) In emergencies I find myself making a mental run-down of responses and literally running though the motion in my head while checking internal sensors - Might I do this, or that? (Learning/ training/ experience factor in here was well.) Am I feeling strong? Do I think I have the time/ capacity given the energy/ strength I have? Is my adrenaline coming up? And here's where I think the bystander effect comes in - seeing other people react can bring your own adrenaline up, tipping your internal state to cause you to 3) act. Otherwise, if the above doesn't go to completion, you will not act.

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Saturday, December 8, 2012 10:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Well, I've run out into traffic on a busy street to save a dog that had run into the road. Seems foolhardy, and I'm sure it was, but my logic was that while some people might not worry too much about hitting a dog with their car, they WOULD freak out if they saw a man in the street and were about to hit him.

I'd love to say I thought it all through rationally, but I saw a dog in the road and just reacted, and those were the thoughts that hit me as I was already in the road.

I'd love to think I'd jump in to help without a second thought, but I honestly can't say what I'd do.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, December 9, 2012 8:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

What Mike said, and I have too. Happens without thinking, it's instinct--but I don't think I'd be quick enough to react to the situation in question, and it would probably end in disaster for me, too, 'cuz if I WAS quick enough to react, I doubt I'd be quick enough, smart enough or strong enough to rescue anyone. Although in this case, the guy was standing up with his arms reaching over the edge--it would have been easy as pie for two people to grab his arms and haul him up. I'd like to believe I'd have tried if I could think fast enough.

The guy is on trial...

Quote:
A homeless man charged in the death of a Queens resident pushed in front of an oncoming subway train blamed the victim for what happened, saying "he attacked me first." Naeem Davis, 30, was arraigned Wednesday night on a second-degree murder charge and ordered held without bail in the death of 58-year-old Ki-Suck Han on Monday. The defendant commented on the incident as he walked past reporters in handcuffs."He attacked me first. He grabbed me," Davis said.

And apparently they were in an altercation before he shoved him:

Quote:
Davis' Legal Aid lawyer, Stephen Pokart, said outside court that his client reportedly "was involved in an incident with a man who was drunk and angry."

In a cell phone video released by police, authorities said Davis can be seen arguing with Han moments before Han was pushed onto the tracks, telling him, "Take your [expletive] over there, stand on line, wait for the 'R' train," CBS New York station WCBS-TV reports.

Han's wife had said she had argued with her husband that morning and that he had been drinking.

I guess everyone has to decide for themselves. Certainly he didn't deserve to die, no matter what.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, December 9, 2012 8:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Well, if he'd been drinking in the morning, yeah, he was asking for it.

:sarcasm:

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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