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Originally posted by Causal:

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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Big words coming from the side of discrimination and bigotry.

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Originally posted by XXXX:
In my opinion [Christians] should be glad to be tolerated as they are, cause I for one, would like to see the evil bastards tied to a stake and screaming while the flames licked ever closer, and fault me for it if you will, I would damned well ENJOY it.

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The right doesn't have the market on hatred and bigotry, you know.

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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Of course not, but I'm pretty sure that if you comared the right and left the right would have a much worse track record on the subject.

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Originally posted by rue:
"Why, oh, why do we have to have a two-party system?" Well, ok. I haven't taken my Ritalin yet, so of course the first thing that popped into my head - and would have been out of my mouth if we were talking - was - " 'cause it's better than one party?" Followed immediately by "you can never have too many parties !" Which of course progresses the discussion not at all.

off the wall and need to climb back on ...

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Originally posted by Causal:
Probably a lot lower, you're right. Of course, voter apathy is a whole other issue besides the two-party system. Somehow, strangely, I'd rather have lower voter turn-out if it meant that those who did show up were educated on the relevant issues and candidates.

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Originally posted by Causal:
This is exactly the sort of statement I'm talking about though. How would you ever figure out who had what kind of record, and how would it be possible determine whose record was worse?

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How is your statement that the right has a worse record on bigotry different than if AUraptor said that the left has a worse record on moral terpitude?

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Both parties have done bad. Neither is on the whole better or worse than the other.

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Both statements represent nothing more than the dogmatism of the party in their attempt to paint the other side as stupid or evil or both, in order to make it so that the American voter will continue giving them power without actually thinking things through carefully enough to realize that we no longer have a representative democracy, we have an oligarchy of the wealthy

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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Another impressive but meaningless sacrificial charge by AURAPTOR.
I sometimes wonder if his anscestors were cavalry officers.

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Originally posted by RocketJock:
Besides, as the saying goes, "You can tell a lot about a man by the enemies he makes"; judging by the way Fox News is grasping to find something to swiftboat the man with, he may just have my vote on general principal. So far, what they've come up with is:

1. His biological father was (gasp!) Muslim!

2. When he was a child, he attended four semesters in a (gasp!) Muslim school!

3. His middle name is (gasp!) Hussein!

4. He is a (gasp!) smoker! (Gasp, gasp, hack, cough, gasp again, wheeze...)

and, my favorite so far (drum roll please)...

5. He hasn't done enough for the black community. Which, coming from Fox News, is not so much a case of the pot calling the kettle black, as one of the china teapot calling the kettle too white...

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Originally posted by RocketJock:
4. He is a (gasp!) smoker! (Gasp, gasp, hack, cough, gasp again, wheeze...)

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Originally posted by Causal:
As I said, it's the 2nd Amendment thing that worries me. If he wins the nom, though, and if the Republicans put up a stinker, I may just overlook that.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Last word on it - Oliver North may have been a creep, but he was a creep with a certain kind of integrity, a man who "Stays Bought" and I can respect that even if I do not respect what he did.

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Originally posted by yinyang:

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Originally posted by Causal:
As I said, it's the 2nd Amendment thing that worries me. If he wins the nom, though, and if the Republicans put up a stinker, I may just overlook that.

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I'm just curious, but was it the Firearms Manufacturers Protection Bill?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Last word on it - Oliver North may have been a creep, but he was a creep with a certain kind of integrity, a man who "Stays Bought" and I can respect that even if I do not respect what he did.

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Is it weird that I kinda agree with ya on this??

I must be war-wacky Chrisisall

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


It sure would help matters if you could be less vague.
"

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Originally posted by RocketJock:

Besides, as the saying goes, "You can tell a lot about a man by the enemies he makes"; judging by the way Fox News is grasping to find something to swiftboat the man with, he may just have my vote on general principal. So far, what they've come up with is:

1. His biological father was (gasp!) Muslim!

2. When he was a child, he attended four semesters in a (gasp!) Muslim school!

3. His middle name is (gasp!) Hussein!

4. He is a (gasp!) smoker! (Gasp, gasp, hack, cough, gasp again, wheeze...)

and, my favorite so far (drum roll please)...

5. He hasn't done enough for the black community. Which, coming from Fox News, is not so much a case of the pot calling the kettle black, as one of the china teapot calling the kettle too white...

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair

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The report published by the Tower Commission, known as the Tower Commission Report, was delivered to the President on February 26, 1987. It criticized the actions of Oliver North, John Poindexter, Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger and others. It did not determine that the President had knowledge of the extent of the program, although it argued that the President ought to have had better control of the National Security Council staff.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...

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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


It sure would help matters if you could be less vague.
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"There is your enemy, My Lord. There are your Guns."

Probably does'nt help much does it?

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"'Enterprise' means any individual, sole proprietorship, partnership, corporation, business trust, union chartered under the laws of this state, or other legal entity, or any unchartered union, association or group of individuals associated in fact although not a legal entity, and it includes illicit as well as licit enterprises, AND GOVERNMENTAL, as well as other, entities."
—Tennessee Code 39-12-203, Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations RICO Act

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"The court finds the actions of the government to be most egregious, indeed appalling."
-Judge Patrick Kelly, Midland Nat. Bank v. Conlogue

Midland Nat. Bank v. Conlogue
720 F.Supp. 878
D.Kan.,1989.
Aug. 4, 1989

CIA cocaine aircraft chased by US Customs and sank in the ocean, so CIA bank and CIA insurance corp sued each other to pay for their doper aircraft. Govt lawyers admitted in court, on the public record, that Uncle Scam knowingly and deliberately imported cocaine into USA.
www.geocities.com/iran_contra_christic_institute

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www.911pressfortruth.com

Our goal has NEVER been to get Bin Laden."
— General Richard Myers, chairman, US joint chiefs of staff at Pentagon, 9/11 Press for Truth
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250

“The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it. I would like to assure the world that I did NOT plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons. I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders’ rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations.”
—Usama bin Laden, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

“We've NEVER made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has NEVER been forthcoming."
— Dick Cheney, WhiteHouse.gov, "Interview of the Vice President by Tony Snow", March 29, 2006
www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html

"9/11 is NOT mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page. He has NOT been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has NO hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”
—Rex Tomb, FBI spokesman, FBI Most Wanted Terrorists webpage, June 6, 2006
www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

QUESTION: "Mr President, in your speeches, you rarely mention Osama Bin Laden. Why is that?"
GEORGE BUSH JR: "I don't know where he is. I just don't spend that much time on him."
— WhiteHouse.gov,

"Operation NORTHWOODS may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. Operation Northwoods had called for nothing less than the launch of a secret campaign of TERRORISM within the United States in order to blame Castro and provoke a war with Cuba."
—James Bamford, ABC News, "Friendly Fire: U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba", May 1, 2001
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

"We could develop a Communist Cuba TERROR campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. Hijacking attampts against US civil air and surface craft should be encouraged. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and the passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone. The drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency "MAY DAY" message stating it is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal."
—General Lyman Lemnitzer, Jewish Zionist chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon, Memo to Secretary of War Robert McNamara, Subject: Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba - Operation NORTHWOODS, March 13, 1962
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

"The FBI has issued a BOLO on suspected terrorists driving a white delivery van from New York City to the Mexican border. The suspects are using ISRAELI passports. They are considered armed and dangerous."
— Emergency 911 Dispatch, BOLO (Be On the LookOut), All-Points-Bulletin (APB), City-County Building, Knoxville, Knox County, Tennessee, September 11, 2001, 11am EST -- Fox News Video

=

"Tasks are typically divided into small parts, and no single person can complete any job alone. Moreover, people are generally not encouraged or rewarded for doing other than their assigned jobs or for undertaking actions independent of their supervisors. It is possible for individuals... to do their jobs well and still produce a deviant action. Courageous insiders may blow the whistle and alert the rest of us, or suspicious outsiders may take a careful look and reveal what they have found."
—Professor M. David Erman, PhD and Professor Richard J. Lundman, PhD, from college textbook Corporate and GOVERNMENTAL DEVIANCE: Problems of Organizational Behavior in Contemporary Society



"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, heh heh heh, just so long as I'm the dictator, heh heh heh."
— George Bush Jr, a homosexual transvestite cheerleader, a convicted drunk driver, an AWOL draft deserter demoted from pilot to mail clerk for refusing lawful order for drug test and sentenced to six months extra duty, arrested for theft, vandalism and cocaine (confessed guilt and expunged after paying restitution by diversion), sued for rape and sued for perping the 9/11 terrorist massacres, who performs mock human sacrifice to worship Satan at Bohemian Grove, who ate off Adolf Hitler's Nazi silverware at Yale Skull & Bones, whose father is the narco kingpin of North America partnered with Pablo Escobar who perped terrorist bombings during Iran-Contra and told Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait, whose grandfather Prescott Bush was arrested and handcuffed 3 times and paid a $750,000 forfeiture under the Trading With The Enemy Act for arming Nazi Germany DURING World War 2, whose ancester Constable Thomas Percy was gunned down and summarily executed for the terrorist bombing of British Parliament in the Gunpowder Plot of 1605 (aka V for Vendetta)
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/174

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US Ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie: "I have direct instructions from President Bush to improve our relations with Iraq. We have considerable sympathy for your quest for higher oil prices, the immediate cause of your confrontation with Kuwait. We can see that you have deployed massive numbers of troops in the south. Normally that would be none of our business."

President Saddam Hussein: "As you know, for years now I have made every effort to reach a settlement on our dispute with Kuwait. There is to be a meeting in two days; I am prepared to give negotiations only this one more brief chance. (pause) When we (the Iraqis) meet (with the Kuwaitis) and we see there is hope, then nothing will happen. But if we are unable to find a solution, then it will be natural that Iraq will not accept death."

Glaspie: "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."

President Saddam Hussein: (smiles)
-Videotaped meeting between Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and US Ambassador April Glaspie, July 25, 1990 (Eight days before the August 2, 1990 Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait)



Journalist 2: "You knew Saddam was going to invade (Kuwait) but you didn't warn him not to. You didn't tell him America would defend Kuwait. You told him the opposite - that America was not associated with Kuwait."

Journalist 1: "You encouraged this aggression - his invasion. What were you thinking?"

US Ambassador Glaspie: "Obviously, I didn't think, and nobody else did, that the Iraqis were going to take all of Kuwait."
-US Embassy, Baghdad, Iraq, September 2, 1990

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George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography

Chapter -XVIII- Iran- Contra
www.kmf.org/williams/bushbook/bush18.html

by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin
www.republicbroadcasting.org

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Your tax dollars at work, folks.

As for why Chavez hates us, and why his own people adore his lambasting of us ?

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Originally posted by citizen:
PirateNews rapes children.

We report, you decide.

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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
That's rather harsh, and he speaks of you so highly.

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Originally posted by Causal:
I'll grant you that you might shrug. But I think you'd have a hard time making the case that only the right has wacko-extremists who go apoplectic if you criticize the politician du jour. There are certainly people on the left that are every bit as extreme in their devotions as people on the right. There are people every bit as intolerant and offensive (to wit: I have, on this board, been told that burning Christians at the stake would be entertaining). It may be the case, Soup, that you are one of the folks on the left who doesn't by into the cult of personality being erected around, for instance, Hilary Clinton. But that doesn't mean that there aren't extremists on your side of the aisle, as well. I guess my real concern here is that once one side feels free to label the other as "moronic," they subsequently stop listening to what the other has to say. And pardon me if I'm terribly naive, but I happen to think that open dialogue among all sensible people (and not just those who agree with you) is the way to move the country forward.

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excerpted from http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
...
But why should you even bother reading this book? I would offer three reasons. First, if you are concerned about what has happened in America since a radical right-wing segment of the population began taking control of the government about a dozen years ago, I think you'll find a lot in this book that says your fears are well founded. As many have pointed out, the Republic is once again passing through perilous times. The concept of a constitutional democracy has been under attack - and by the American government no less! The mid-term elections of 2006 give hope that the best values and traditions of the country will ultimately prevail. But it could prove a huge mistake to think that the enemies of freedom and equality have lost the war just because they were recently rebuffed at the polls. I'll be very much surprised if their leaders don't frame the setback as a test of the follower's faith, causing them to redouble their efforts. They came so close to getting what they want, they're not likely to pack up and go away without an all-out drive. But even if they temporarily fade from view, they will still be there, aching for a dictatorship that will force their views on everyone. The country is not out of danger yet.

The second reason I can offer for reading what follows is that it is not chock full of opinions, but experimental evidence. Liberals have stereotypes about conservatives, and conservatives have stereotypes about liberals. Moderates have stereotypes about both. Anyone who has watched, or been a liberal arguing with a conservative (or vice versa) knows that personal opinion and rhetoric can be had a penny a pound. But the arguing never seems to get anywhere. Whereas if you set up a fair and square experiment in which people can act nobly, fairly, and with integrity, and you find that most of one group does, and most of another group does not, that's a fact, not an opinion. And if you keep finding the same thing experiment after experiment, and other people do too, then that's a body of facts that demand attention.{3} Some people, we have seen to our dismay, don't care a hoot what scientific investigation reveals. But most people do. If the data were fairly gathered and we let them do the talking, we should be on a higher plane than the current, "Sez you!"

The last reason why you might be interested in the hereafter is that you might want more than just facts about authoritarians, but understanding and insight into why they act the way they do. Which is often mind-boggling. How can they revere those who gave their lives defending freedom and then support moves to take that freedom away? How can they go on believing things that have been disproved over and over again, and disbelieve things that are well established? How can they think they are the best people in the world, when so much of what they do ought to show them they are not? Why do their leaders so often turn out to be crooks and hypocrites? Why are both the followers and the leaders so aggressive that hostility is practically their trademark? By the time you have finished this book, I think you will understand the reasons. All of this, and much more, fit into place once you see what research has uncovered going on in authoritarian minds.
...
{3} I hope you'll agree that the studies were fair and square. It's your call, of course, and everybody else's. That's the beauty of the scientific method. If another researcher - and there are hundreds of them - thinks I only got the results I did because of the particular way I set things up, phrased things, and so on, she can repeat my experiment her way, find out, and let everybody know what happened. It's the wonderful way science polices and corrects itself.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Save 'hero' for peeps that face death overseas, firefighters or EMS workers and the like. Or ficticious dudes like Kirk or Reynolds.

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Originally posted by piratenews:
My dad was on the Dream Team of 100 lawyers suing the Bush Sr White House to start Iran-Contra.

Now my dad's on the trillion-dollar dream team sueing Saudi members of Bush & Queen's Carlyle Group for perping the 9/11 terrorist massacres.

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by piratenews:
My dad was on the Dream Team of 100 lawyers suing the Bush Sr White House to start Iran-Contra.

Now my dad's on the trillion-dollar dream team sueing Saudi members of Bush & Queen's Carlyle Group for perping the 9/11 terrorist massacres.

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Wow, thats totally unbelievable. I mean its the most outragous thing I've EVER heard you or ANYONE say...you KNOW who your father is? I just don't believe it.

H

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Originally posted by Hero:

Wow, thats totally unbelievable. I mean its the most outragous thing I've EVER heard you or ANYONE say...you KNOW who your father is?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
My dad sent me to Earth as a baby, then unfortunatly his whole planet blew up.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Sounds good in theory. But how many times do liberals have to be burned before they stop sticking their hands in the fire? I can turn on Rush Limbaugh, or pick up a book by Ann Coulter, or listen in to Fox News Channel and find out that I, as a self-described liberal, am a traitor. There are significant voices on the right that want to harm and ultimately silence tens of millions of Americans simply because of what we believe. And they have a huge audience. I see nobody in positions of authority, with a wide ranging audience and access to broad distribution avenues, on the left advocating for what prominent conservatives daily argue for. There absolutely are people on the left who are every bit as intolerant as those on the right. The big difference is that they have zero power, zero credibility, and zero platform. Whereas, on the right, the intolerant ones are the ones who have been running the show for the past twelve years. Be careful that you don't fall into the mainstream media trap of setting up false equivalencies in an effort for balance.

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Originally posted by Causal:
Also, here's a question. When someone says "The Republicans may not all be racists, but on the whole, the Republican party is the party is discriminatory and bigoted" how is that any different than saying "Race X might not all be bad quality Y, but on the whole, Xs are Y"? Seriously, pick your racial stereotype--think of the worst one you can think of. Now I think that even the most racist person would say that not everyone in that group is that way--just that on the whole, they are. How is that any different from what you're doing when you paint a large group of people with as broad a brush as that? How is that any less stereotyped?

And I just also want to say (because it has to be) that it only seems like "false equivalence" because of your pre-existing beliefs.

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Originally posted by Causal:
So...you're saying that the mere desire to win the votes of southerners means that the Republicans are racists? Are you suggesting that southerners are racists who only respond to a racist ideology?

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
I'm saying that you need to research what exactly the Southern strategy entailed and why Ken Mehlman felt the need to apologize for it when he spoke before the NAACP.

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Originally posted by Causal:
Point granted. But it is not fair to say "all southerners are racists"--but that's what Soup's thesis seems to be suggesting. The way he's reasoning it might also be suggested, "The southern states are the bible belt and the Republican push for southern states is an effort to bring religious voters into the party." Suggesting that the Republican party is going south because it's racist down there is, frankly, insulting both to the GOP and to the south in general.

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Originally posted by Causal:
Point granted. But it is not fair to say "all southerners are racists"--but that's what Soup's thesis seems to be suggesting.

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