Call to Arms for People who believe we can win this war. by MalBadInLatin

I guess you can see anything if you use the right filters.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 5:52 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well Fletch,

You've nicely hijacked the thread with a flame war.

GOOD JOB !!!

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Well you could say that, or you could say I just proved your premise bogus and as such you no longer get to do your self rightious act. I think most people will see I stayed on topic, just that I see the topic for what it is, political posturing, and refuse to ceed its legitimacy.

Like I said most wars, even flame wars are optional. The only way this one could have been avoided would be if people capitulated to your demand that the "grab an M16" idea had any validity. Since no one did hostilities began.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 5:58 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

At the end of the day (literally) I'll get back to this. Meanwhile, I have work to do.

AH, I remember, I am not going home tonight, I have a family commitment. And tomorrow I'll be back at work. Strange how that happens. Maybe tomorrow evening, if this thread hasn't gotton too far down the list, or too long to try and catch up on.

You see, not only do I have a life, it's a very busy one, doing all those things you presume I don't do.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 6:07 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
At the end of the day (literally) I'll get back to this. Meanwhile, I have work to do.

AH, I remember, I am not going home tonight, I have a family commitment. And tomorrow I'll be back at work. Strange how that happens. Maybe tomorrow evening, if this thread hasn't gotton too far down the list, or too long to try and catch up on.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

So what you are saying is that when other people don't post within minutes you and Sig get to do the "Timer" thing suggesting the other person's position is weak because they are not immediately available to defend it, but when "real life" delays your answer to a point where people will have to do real work to see your nit picking "quotes" in original context we have to let it ride?

Nice Rue and you're right "strange how that happens."

Just to let you know I'm done with this thread. I don't want to have to deal with your out-of-context quotes and nit picking 3 or 4 days later. I can't think of any sport where one player gets a timeout and gets to rest up where the other is expected to continue with the game. I think your premise has been debunked and I'm done here. Should you have any constructive ideas about the topics I raised earlier start a new thread and we will discuss them.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 7:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Mal, Rue, Signy, Chris
How do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?

I lack a credible source on how things are going over there, so I won't judge. And don't you dare for one minute try to send me to some conservative blog or Fox News for disinformation. But since were on the subject, my curiosity has gotten the better of me, how do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 7:29 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Tell me....if you were drafted...would that change your opinion about keeping this tragic war going?

No. I believe in the war and I believe that the all-volunteer military is the reason why our soldiers are the highest educated, best trained, best equiped, and most capable fighting force ever assembled in the history of man (although I just saw 300 and lets face it...Spartans rule).

My support for the war and the American military does not require me to don the uniform any more then my support for the Browns requires me to take the field this coming September 9th when the whup the Steelers to open the season. I buy tickets and watch the games and everything I can to support the team, but putting me on the field would be a HUGE mistake for me, the team, and all of humanity.

H

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 7:31 AM

MAL4PREZ

Have to say Fletch, your comparison to joining the VFD doesn't work for me. The VFD, at every level, is all about saving innocents. The Iraq war is most emphatically not. Now, it would be an apt comparison if members of the VFD were ordered to risk their lives while *setting* fires, and in the process killing innocents and hence suffering guilt and PTSD for the rest of their lives.

And before you interpret me wrong - I believe the vast majority of our armed forces are doing their jobs honorably and with the purest of intentions. But our leaders have sold this war based on flat out lies, and they're taking all the profit and suffering none of the risk.

So, what Rue's pointing out is that if you think this war is worth dying for, but you're not willing to take the risk on yourself, you're a hypocrit just as bad as Cheney. Hmm... kind of like my theory that every policy-maker should experience a questioning technique before classifying it as Not Torture. A little water boarding, Mr. Rummy?

EDITED TWICE: Hero, you're seriously comparing a soldier going to fight in an unjust war to you playing in a football game? Ummm....

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 8:00 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Have to say Fletch, your comparison to joining the VFD doesn't work for me. The VFD, at every level, is all about saving innocents. The Iraq war is most emphatically not.

So, what Rue's pointing out is that if you think this war is worth dying for, but you're not willing to take the risk on yourself, you're a hypocrit just as bad as Cheney.

But that's a value judgement, more to the point YOUR value judgement. The reason that I mentioned the VFD is that there are activities which we as a society believe should be done and which involve personal risk. We are not expected to back our opinion that something "should be done" by an obligation to do it ourselves. If it's not expected for those activities why should it be for the war?

Let's get specific then if you like. I recently heard the actor Don Cheddle lobbying for people to "do something" about the Darfur genocide. The "do something" part probably means putting UN or African Union troops in the field to defend civilians and protect refuge camps. These troops are someone's sons and daughters and some will probably come back in a bodybag. If your reasoning is followed through on is Mr Cheddle obligated to pick up a gun and head for Darfor? Is the price of being allowed to advocate an opinion the obligation to back it up with his own direct action? If he doesn't pick up a gun and fly to Darfor to replace a UN or AU peacekeeper do we have a right to call him a coward and a hypocrite and ignore what he says?

Or does the idea that you should back your opinion with your life only apply if that opinion is opposite to yours?

I'm kind of interested in your response for the following reason. My sister used to date an Iraqi Kurd, this was back in the 90's before Bush/Cheyne or any of that stuff happened. As is common in Iraq his family was large and extended which meant that he had relatives that had been gassed, persecuted and any number of other things. If you spoke with him you wouldn't be in any doubt that Saddam and his cronies were some evil SOB's. Like Don Chedle I wanted something to be "done about it" because I don't happen to think that regimes that rape daughters to shame and punish fathers should be allowed to continue. So for me it didn't matter if there were WMD's or not as long as Sadam wasn't in a position to keep doing what he was doing.

So you see I have activist guilt. Like Mr Cheddle my belief that somebody should do something to stop the bad people means I'm voting someone else into a bodybag. I'm a serial offender, I thought the same about Kosovo too and Darfor if it comes to that. Thinking back lots of folks thought Kosovo was a great idea don't recall any purity test insisting you pick up an M16 to support that one either.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 8:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
At the end of the day (literally) I'll get back to this. Meanwhile, I have work to do.

AH, I remember, I am not going home tonight, I have a family commitment. And tomorrow I'll be back at work. Strange how that happens. Maybe tomorrow evening, if this thread hasn't gotton too far down the list, or too long to try and catch up on.

You see, not only do I have a life, it's a very busy one, doing all those things you presume I don't do.

I, for one, applaud you on your work ethic and committment to family. Even if we don't agree on anything else.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 8:21 AM

I disagree with the assesment of our forces being well trained, although our scale of equipment and education levels may be better, we still train to nearly musket-line tactics in Basic, and are still using a 2GW tactical doctrine against a 4GW opponent who, while less educated and poorly equipped, knows the local culture and politics intimately - something our troops for the most part do not know, and thanks to deliberately-instilled xenophobia in basic, actually resist learning.

They may be well trained, but it's not the RIGHT training, in many cases, for the jobs that they're trying to do, and it's even worse in second and third rate supply units, many members of whom are non-quals called up off IRR to fill in the holes, equipped with vietnam leftover M16A1's IF they have rifles at all.

Smarter CO's have allowed convoy personnel to use locally procured and/or captured AK's, it's a handier weapon inside a vehicle, and quite effective at suppressive/defensive fire ranges, which also conserves our 5.56Nato ammo cause we're badly short on that at this time.

Our rigid chain of command structure also counts against us, being based on Napoleonic Doctrine, and in the case of a failure of communications or loss of established leadership, in many cases this results in the complete paralysis of the unit, rendering it's battlefield effectiveness in anything but an emplaced defensive position about nil.

If we've learned anything at all from this mess, it's that our training programs need to be radically revised for the modern age - that should have happened after vietnam, but budget and other considerations made that politically impossible at the time.

I would *highly* reccommend pulling some ground pounders who have learned the hard way out in the sandbox, back to the states and breveting them as cadre to update our current training programs - not the officers sitting in cushy air conditioned offices in the green zone, but the guys out in the teeth of this mess who've seen and figured out what works and what doesn't.

And I hold THAT opinion regardless of my opinion that this whole war was stupid, futile and pointless - we still need to update training, and badly, in order for our forces to be any kind of defensive deterrent at all.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 8:56 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

*muffled sardonic laugh*

Great rebuttal.

My friend's cousin was in Iraq, for a while. He had no illusions about why we were there, he was just doing his job, and tried (successfully) to get home in one piece with his buddies. You don't need to delude yourself to be focused.

Quote:

Like it or not, America started this and should rightly see it to the end.

So we reward asshats with a follow-thru. Teach 'em that as long as we start something, no matter how ill-conceived , we will go all the way. They initiate, we all follow. Uh...no.

Quote:

Do you really think the Sunnis will stop killing the Shias or vice versa when the Americans leave?

With us or without us, that won't stop. Taking out Saddam began their civil war, like it or not.

Quote:
?
your lack of respect for the deceased and what they and their families may or may not have believed in is callous IMHO.

They died for a dumb idea, period. Get over it. Water is usually wet, too. I won't sugar coat it and happily send off more to their deaths to make peeps feel better about their loss. They SHOULD be outraged and s**t!!!! My concern for the living trumps all other 'touchy-feely' matters.

Colour me callous Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 9:11 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
But that's a value judgement, more to the point YOUR value judgement. The reason that I mentioned the VFD is that there are activities which we as a society believe should be done and which involve personal risk. We are not expected to back our opinion that something "should be done" by an obligation to do it ourselves. If it's not expected for those activities why should it be for the war?

I think there's a difference, Fletch. With this war, there's a big big difference.

However, I agree with you on one thing: Part of why society works is that not everyone has to do everything. We can't all be soldiers, and yet we all have a responsibility to form and voice our opinions. So I'm not out to tell you to join up or shut up. But, I still think your VFD comparison was poor

I'm taking kind of a weaker shade of Rue's side on this argument. I'm not out to bash you as much as, say... the supply companies that hire some poor schmoe from Kansas to drive a rig of supplies through Iraq with not even a gun to defend himself, and then take away his bonus pay when he gets shot and doesn't finish his year. That's the stuff that burns me.

Also - taking up guns isn't the only way to support a cause. If I were to get serious about Darfur, I wouldn't go running over there with a rocket launcher. But I might step away from my day job and try to raise awareness and money about it, something that fits my less violence-centered mentality. (Um... I must admit I have no idea who Don Cheddle is.)

But I do understand your feelings about Iraq. My feelings in 2003 were similar, that I wanted Saddam out. But I wanted him out in a way that would lead to a better situation, and it was clear to me then that Bush was going about this in a way sure to alienate the entire world and make the whole situation worse. Which is exactly what's happened.

His motivations were wrong. The US got into Iraq and secured those oil rigs long before we even looked at WMD sites. And we didn't give a shit about the people - the residents of Fallujah said thank you very much can you leave us to rebuild now? We said no way, and we kept our gunman there and took control of their town. Now we're eating the country's wealth, giving it to international companies rather than to the Iraqis themselves. We. Have. No. Right.

I was in Kuwait a few months ago, and I talked to folks from all over the Middle East, including Iraq, and they're saying that *it's not better than Saddam's time*. This one man can't even drive his daughter to school. I mean - can you imagine living like that? I don't know where you are, but can you even imagine not being able to take your kid to school in the neighboring suburb without passing bombed buildings and blood stains and checkpoints held by foreigners with machine guns? Can you imagine getting woken up in a midnight raid on your house, guns in your face, with no choice but to take it? And yet, you think it's okay for Americans to do this to someone else?

Yeah, obviously this is an issue that rouses passion, sorry if I got heated and tangential. I just think that the same Americans (I don't mean you, Fletch) who are so eager to kill those evil Iraqis for not lying down and letting us walk on them would be the first to start setting pipe bombs if anyone did to us what we're doing to the Iraqis. Pure hypocrisy. It's disgusting.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 9:22 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93presen
t%29

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I lack a credible source on how things are going over there, so I won't judge. And don't you dare for one minute try to send me to some conservative blog or Fox News for disinformation.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
But since were on the subject, my curiosity has gotten the better of me, how do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?

Did no one ever tell you not to answer a question with a question?
The present conflict in Afghanistan is NATO / UN sanctioned. If you agree in the legitimacy of foreign troops in Afghanistan and their mission than sign up now. If it is the welfare of the troops which concerns you why no outrage regarding Afghanistan? If civilian deaths concern you, there are plenty in Afghanistan. Again, why no outrage from you?
To answer your question, I have nothing but respect for the American and other national (Canada) forces and the work they are doing in Afghanistan.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93presen
t%29
The present conflict in Afghanistan is NATO / UN sanctioned. If you agree in the legitimacy of foreign troops in Afghanistan and their mission than sign up now. If it is the welfare of the troops which concerns you why no outrage regarding Afghanistan? If civilian deaths concern you, there are plenty in Afghanistan. Again, why no outrage from you?
To answer your question, I have nothing but respect for the American and other national (Canada) forces and the work they are doing in Afghanistan

Christ almighty Nobody, wikipedia is credible on how the war in afghanistan is doing???? I'm not in favor of any of our military endevours. Out Now Everywhere! And this is the lamest attempt so far to turn the tables on my original thread. So I'll get us back on track here. "If you ARE IN FAVOR of the war in Iraq...You are a coward and a hypocrit if you send others off to die because you are a afriad to go, that's right! afraid to go fight for the cause you perpetuate with your support. And in answer to your question...I have nothing but respect for the American and other national (Canada) forces and the work they are doing in Afghanistan. Also, no warmongers have given one good reason for not enlisting, you pro war guys just try to deflect the topic. Pro war people have much experience deflecting reality, so I expect nothing less. I want all our boys home to thier Mom's now. Not off fighting a war in your place when you could go

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 11:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Christ almighty Nobody, wikipedia is credible on how the war in afghanistan is doing????

I figured it would get you off and running on the topic. It's not like there is some conspiracy to mask all information regarding the conflict. Your ignorance on the subject has much more to do with you than trouble finding a 'credible source'.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I'm not in favor of any of our military endevours. Out Now Everywhere!

Damn the consequences, isolationism!

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
And this is the lamest attempt so far to turn the tables on my original thread. So I'll get us back on track here. "If you ARE IN FAVOR of the war in Iraq...You are a coward and a hypocrit if you send others off to die because you are a afriad to go, that's right! afraid to go fight for the cause you perpetuate with your support.

If Fletch's point about the error of your argument hasn't sunk in yet than there is nothing that I can say to change that.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
And in answer to your question...I have nothing but respect for the American and other national (Canada) forces and the work they are doing in Afghanistan.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I'm not in favor of any of our military endevours. Out Now Everywhere!

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Also, no warmongers have given one good reason for not enlisting, you pro war guys just try to deflect the topic. Pro war people have much experience deflecting reality, so I expect nothing less. I want all our boys home to thier Mom's now. Not off fighting a war in your place when you could go

If Fletch's point about the error of your argument hasn't sunk in yet than there is nothing that I can say to change that.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 11:54 AM

I see someone else has noticed the recent rightwingnut troll infestation of Wiki...

Sad that, cause it still has great potential as an information source - but with any net based info, as always, Caveat Emptor.

Check, recheck, and crosscheck - it's the only way to sure.

-F

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My friend's cousin was in Iraq, for a while. He had no illusions about why we were there, he was just doing his job, and tried (successfully) to get home in one piece with his buddies. You don't need to delude yourself to be focused.

Good point.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So we reward asshats with a follow-thru. Teach 'em that as long as we start something, no matter how ill-conceived , we will go all the way. They initiate, we all follow. Uh...no.

America will come into your country triggering total chaos. Then they will leave and say fix it yourselves. That is how you want the US to be perceived?

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Taking out Saddam began their civil war, like it or not.

A pretty good reason to stay and help stabilize, don't you think?

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
They died for a dumb idea, period. Get over it. Water is usually wet, too. I won't sugar coat it and happily send off more to their deaths to make peeps feel better about their loss. They SHOULD be outraged and s**t!!!! My concern for the living trumps all other 'touchy-feely' matters.

Your concern for the living Americans you mean.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 12:15 PM

Nobody...you are an absolute waste of time to debate with

I don't care about Fletch's flawed Darfur analogy, and I am for neutrality ,otherwised demonized by Republicans when called Isolationism. I am not for any of our military endevours including Don Cheedle's Darfur.

You're so republicanized you just regurgitate Fox news ad nasium and don't know it.

No offense of course

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 1:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Nobody...you are an absolute waste of time to debate with

But that's why I come here to debate, to waste time.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I don't care about Fletch's flawed Darfur analogy, and I am for neutrality ,otherwised demonized by Republicans when called Isolationism. I am not for any of our military endevours including Don Cheedle's Darfur.

That is your opinion and you are more than entitled to have it. Extend that same courtesy to others whose opinions you don't agree with.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
You're so republicanized you just regurgitate Fox news ad nasium and don't know it.

The be all and end all argument from the left. Because my opinion on certain matters differs from yours, I am simply regurgitating talking points.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
No offense of course

None taken.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 1:52 PM

Ya know what I was hoping for Nobody...I was hoping for a pro war person to say:

A. Ya know...I do feel strongly about the war, and maybe I should go, since I support it, and it seems like the right thing.

OR

B. Wow!...when I picture myself actualy enlisting and going over there to get shot at....fuck that! I ain't gettin killed, maybe I'll rethink my stance on the war, maybe become anti-war or I'll be a hypocrit.

But I got nothin even close from all of the pro war people on this site. I know...it's naive to expect such empathetic behavior while our boys dieing over there. Instead they tried and tried to come up with flimsy analogies...probing for weakness's of the notion that they were either cowards or hypocrits. Whatever it takes to sleep at night I guess.

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 2:06 PM

Quote:
Whatever it takes to sleep at night I guess.

That's rather exactly it - nobody wants to admit we totally fucked it up from the get-go, and our incompetent flailing is just makin it worse.

Out, now.
And what I would tell Mohammed Q Iraqi ?

"Sorry dude, wasn't my idea, but at least we're leaving now before we fuck it up worse than we already have...
Here's an AK-47 and six clips, go home and live your life - anyone tries to harm you or take from you, put some of that ammo in em, that's as free as I can make you and as free as anyone on this planet gets, brother."

-Frem

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 3:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Whatever it takes to sleep at night I guess.

That's rather exactly it - nobody wants to admit we totally fucked it up from the get-go, and our incompetent flailing is just makin it worse.

Out, now.
And what I would tell Mohammed Q Iraqi ?

"Sorry dude, wasn't my idea, but at least we're leaving now before we fuck it up worse than we already have...
Here's an AK-47 and six clips, go home and live your life - anyone tries to harm you or take from you, put some of that ammo in em, that's as free as I can make you and as free as anyone on this planet gets, brother."

-Frem

Everyone, from the Right to the Left, understands that the " Out, now" approach isn't going to happen. It would make matters FAR worse.

Get use to us staying there. It's simply a fact of life you're gonna have to accept. Even Hillary knows it.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, August 2, 2007 5:33 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now. And don't give me any of that stuff about the family you just started, plenty of our boys have given thier lives and had infants at home. People are dying right now because of your convictions....doesn't that affect you at all? Don't tell me that's not the only way to serve your country...It IS the only thing your country desperatly needs from you right now. You keep saying your country is in such peril from the people our brave boys face in the streets of Baghdad!.....Why are you pro war young people still sitting while people fight, suffer, and die in your stead.

Pro War Young People...go save Iraq yourself!

Let me ask this, as you are saying if you are pro war you should be compelled to serve, should not the reverse also hold true? The guys who are serving and are against this war should be on a plane home straight away.....

That would be something to see

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Friday, August 3, 2007 12:03 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
ad hominem

To be fair, saying someone has to fight in order to support a war is also an ad hominem.

Though expecting an army to fight a war you support, if you're not willing to support it materially, with increased taxes and possibly direct contributions like Frems care packages, does seem rather hollow. America has undertaken an incredibly expensive, and long-term military intervention, and I'm afraid the whizz bangs and pretty booms of the initial invasion aren't there to keep the war hawks entertained any more. All that remains is the cold hard reality (or the somewhat cushioned and manipulated reality of the 'impartial' Fox news), and unfortunately even the Fox news version doesn't include the pre-war promises of Iraqis throwing off their oppression and building democracy in three weeks flat as promised.

It's expensive building a country, I mean, usually it takes an entire country to do it, especially when you're doing it with the highest bidders, so a select few companies can make huge profits.

Fact is, if you support the war in Iraq, you've got to pony up just like everyone else when the tax man comes knocking, and at least have the respect for the people who are putting a lot more on the line than your 42" LCD, to do it without bitching and moaning about 'tax and spend' democrats, or liberals, or socialist or what the hell else.

It does seem that an awful lot of people who support this war, also feel it should be fought “not with ME, not with MY kids, not with MY money”. If you ain't prepared to take a hit, you ain't really supporting shit.

Not everyone has the responsibility of their life hanging on this, but everyone, no matter whether they support it or not, has the responsibility for paying for it. The least those that actually support this war can do is live up to their responsibility without whining about it.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 4:13 AM

MAZAEN

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now. And don't give me any of that stuff about the family you just started

Interesting point. I guess if people support the war they should sign up for it. Well since all the right wing people would sign up to defend the country, I'd be worried about leaving the left wing home as they'd make wierd decisions about running the country. Kite flying might be cancelled and schools wouldn't be allowed to grade students exams as it might hurt the student's feelings.

I don't know that I support the current war. I do support the idea of creating a stable democracy in Iraq. I don't support the way America has gone about trying to succeed in this goal.

Revolutionising a country involves education. Education could involve an eduction lesson at a very young age against islamic extremism. I can't see Iraq government implementing a project like this at all in schools.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 6:40 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

America will come into your country triggering total chaos. Then they will leave and say fix it yourselves. That is how you want the US to be perceived?

Maybe you haven't been keepin' up on current events, pal, but that's exactly HOW we are perceived by most of the world- what others think of us is clearly not important- to ANY administration.
The best think we could have done is leave Saddam in power, and let a revolution take it's time. Forcing a rush to it was a mistake, at least the way it was done (NO forethought, I mean). So, your way is to stay and get our peeps shot up in the midst of what's gonna happen anyway in an attempt to perpetuate a sense of control that we really don't have now over there? Teach the powers that be over here that they can ALWAYS have their way in the military arena, decade after decade?
Not MY agenda, thanks.

American Chrisisall

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Friday, August 3, 2007 6:56 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Ya know what I was hoping for Nobody...I was hoping for a pro war person to say:

A. Ya know...I do feel strongly about the war, and maybe I should go, since I support it, and it seems like the right thing.

OR

B. Wow!...when I picture myself actually enlisting and going over there to get shot at....fuck that! I ain't gettin killed, maybe I'll rethink my stance on the war, maybe become anti-war or I'll be a hypocrite.

But I got nothin even close from all of the pro war people on this site. I know...it's naive to expect such empathetic behavior while our boys dieing over there. Instead they tried and tried to come up with flimsy analogies...probing for weakness's of the notion that they were either cowards or hypocrites. Whatever it takes to sleep at night I guess.

Mal, you are so appreciated by me here!

Chrisisall

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Friday, August 3, 2007 7:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Let me ask this, as you are saying if you are pro war you should be compelled to serve, should not the reverse also hold true? The guys who are serving and are against this war should be on a plane home straight away.....

That would be something to see

Well, that makes me think...but before I go on....I actualy think that we should bring all Americans home from Iraq. I don't care if the Iraqiis kill each other off completely after we leave. And I don't really like the idea of the pro war posters on this thread going off to die either. The point is...as a pro war poster here, YOU should hate the idea of putting your life on hold, going to Iraq to risk it for Maliki and his Shiite gang, and with your slightly off angle viewpoint that you gained in the second you considered it, sort of feel what it must be like to back up your pro war convictions by actualy acting on those convictions. Now...in answer to your question...the people who are there now volunteered. BUT!!!! They do need more volunteers because they're understaffed, and what better place to get those volunteers than the proud Americans who think we should keep fighting till we win! Pro war/Republicans are always saying that WE need to make sacrifices like in WWII to get to eventual glorious victory. I gotta tell ya, those days were over by 1953. But that's just the way this old hippie see's it

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 7:39 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Let me ask this, as you are saying if you are pro war you should be compelled to serve, should not the reverse also hold true? The guys who are serving and are against this war should be on a plane home straight away.....

That would be something to see

Well, that makes me think...but before I go on....I actualy think that we should bring all Americans home from Iraq. I don't care if the Iraqiis kill each other off completely after we leave. And I don't really like the idea of the pro war posters on this thread going off to die either. The point is...as a pro war poster here, YOU should hate the idea of putting your life on hold, going to Iraq to risk it for Maliki and his Shiite gang, and with your slightly off angle viewpoint that you gained in the second you considered it, sort of feel what it must be like to back up your pro war convictions by actualy acting on those convictions. Now...in answer to your question...the people who are there now volunteered. BUT!!!! They do need more volunteers because they're understaffed, and what better place to get those volunteers than the proud Americans who think we should keep fighting till we win! Pro war/Republicans are always saying that WE need to make sacrifices like in WWII to get to eventual glorious victory. I gotta tell ya, those days were over by 1953. But that's just the way this old hippie see's it

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but hasn't Congress been given a couple of chances to end the financing for the war already? A year or so ago, the Murtha bruhahah led the then-Repub. controlled Congress to put it on the floor for a vote...and what happenned? Nothing...the biggest Bush bashers and anti-war screamer Dems didn't have the guts of conviction to vote against it...right? Or was there a secret short-term strategy to keep the funds going for the war so they could then use the anti-war sentiment in America to propel them into Congress? Why would anyone who voted for them in 2006 elections believe they would end the war when they failed to act earlier in the year?...And now that the Dems have controlled congress for 8 months...again why no war vote to cut it off?...Another strategy to keep it going to propel a Dem into the White House? Will THAT finally be what it takes for them to act...step 1: secure control of all the govt....step 2: stop the war...step 3: ???

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Friday, August 3, 2007 7:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but hasn't Congress been given a couple of chances to end the financing for the war already? A year or so ago, the Murtha bruhahah led the then-Repub. controlled Congress to put it on the floor for a vote...and what happenned? Nothing...the biggest Bush bashers and anti-war screamer Dems didn't have the guts of conviction to vote against it...right? Or was there a secret short-term strategy to keep the funds going for the war so they could then use the anti-war sentiment in America to propel them into Congress? Why would anyone who voted for them in 2006 elections believe they would end the war when they failed to act earlier in the year?...And now that the Dems have controlled congress for 8 months...again why no war vote to cut it off?...Another strategy to keep it going to propel a Dem into the White House? Will THAT finally be what it takes for them to act...step 1: secure control of all the govt....step 2: stop the war...step 3: ???

I'm not a democrat Jong, why would you ask me to defend what those morons in congress do? I'm anti war, and a registered republican! Some people are so programmed by Fox News, Rush, and Hannity to think all dems are this and all republicans are that that you just spew back out that crap that made you feel so good when it was on it's way in. It's kind of like this newly dicovered animal that vommits on you when it's threatened...RWEDicus spewidosicus.

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 7:59 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I wasn't specifically asking these questions of you Mal, sorry if it came out that way. I guess I'll hear from the anti-war Dems soon enough.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 8:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I wasn't specifically asking these questions of you Mal, sorry if it came out that way. I guess I'll hear from the anti-war Dems soon enough.

OOPs, now I feel bad about my edit

Same to you.

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 8:36 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Let me ask this, as you are saying if you are pro war you should be compelled to serve, should not the reverse also hold true? The guys who are serving and are against this war should be on a plane home straight away.....

That would be something to see

Well, that makes me think...but before I go on....I actualy think that we should bring all Americans home from Iraq. I don't care if the Iraqiis kill each other off completely after we leave. And I don't really like the idea of the pro war posters on this thread going off to die either. The point is...as a pro war poster here, YOU should hate the idea of putting your life on hold, going to Iraq to risk it for Maliki and his Shiite gang, and with your slightly off angle viewpoint that you gained in the second you considered it, sort of feel what it must be like to back up your pro war convictions by actualy acting on those convictions. Now...in answer to your question...the people who are there now volunteered. BUT!!!! They do need more volunteers because they're understaffed, and what better place to get those volunteers than the proud Americans who think we should keep fighting till we win! Pro war/Republicans are always saying that WE need to make sacrifices like in WWII to get to eventual glorious victory. I gotta tell ya, those days were over by 1953. But that's just the way this old hippie see's it

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

Actually I am against the war, not an american and I would also like to point out that many joined the military before this war in good faith that if called to fight it would be for good reason. Some poor bastard joins the national guard thinking that it would be cool to help out flood victims, and maybe serve honorably to defend their country... not really what is going on is it...

So the question is did they volunteer to help their country or go to Iraq... the two seem to be at odds

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Friday, August 3, 2007 9:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni: Actually I am against the war, not an american and I would also like to point out that many joined the military before this war in good faith that if called to fight it would be for good reason. Some poor bastard joins the national guard thinking that it would be cool to help out flood victims, and maybe serve honorably to defend their country... not really what is going on is it...

So the question is did they volunteer to help their country or go to Iraq... the two seem to be at odds

I can't imagine more that a small pecentage actually wanting to go to a pit like Iraq and get shot at, but there must be a few. Then some are patriotic, some are career military, some are national guard and I feel sorry for them. Can you imagine the scale of "What the fuck did I get into" they must be going through?...those are the guys who should be replaced by 18-30 year old pro war American patriots!

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 9:09 AM

Quote:
Revolutionising a country involves education. Education could involve an eduction lesson at a very young age against islamic extremism. I can't see Iraq government implementing a project like this at all in schools.

Meh, might I suggest such a program HERE against christian extremism - I suspect I'd be lynched within a week...

Seriously tho, they ain't gonna do that cause the only folk who have *successfully* stood up to foreign meddlers and invaders have been those islamic extremists, and they trust them more than they trust us - we propped up the Shah, and then propped up Saddam against The Ayatolla when the Shah finally fell, and will very likely prop up a new unwanted, unwelcome puppet dictator under the thin fiction of democracy.

Who will then either fall and be replaced by some yahoo who REALLY hates us, or turn in our hand necessitating yet another round of violence, it's like we never learn nothin.

You're onto something there with education tho, the plight of women in that culture is pretty upsetting to me, but you cannot ram social change down someones throat on a bayonet, it just doesn't work.... but I would be all for supporting and encouraging their women to stand up for themselves and demand better treatment, if needs be from behind a row of levelled AK's, but THEY have to want it, and THEY have to DO it, or it has no meaning or longterm effect.

Problem with that, is the same problem as the rest, they do not trust us, we've given em utterly no reason to, and a million reasons not to - they DO trust the extremists, while what they'll get from that quarter is ugly, they will seek the comfort of the familiar over a treacherous foreign power whos every meddling has been a bona-fide disaster.

And so, they'll throw their lot in with the extremists, cause awful as it is, they know exactly what they're gonna get, and that's a far surer bet than gambling on our incompetent interventions.

I guess there's a great deal of comfort in the familar, even if it's awful...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, August 3, 2007 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I can't imagine more that a small pecentage actually wanting to go to a pit like Iraq and get shot at, but there must be a few. Then some are patriotic, some are career military, some are national guard and I feel sorry for them. Can you imagine the scale of "What the fuck did I get into" they must be going through?...those are the guys who should be replaced by 18-30 year old pro war American patriots!

That's akin to somebody joining the fire department but thinking that they personally will never have to run into a burning building. I'm sure there are some who joined the military for a college degree. Some who joined for disaster relief or other humanitarian causes. There are probably those who joined for something to do until they can decide on another career. But they should not have been naive enough to think they would never see combat. You cannot run the military by clearing every campaign with every soldier. Their job is to go where they are told and do what they are told, whether they agree or not.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 10:31 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I can't imagine more that a small pecentage actually wanting to go to a pit like Iraq and get shot at, but there must be a few. Then some are patriotic, some are career military, some are national guard and I feel sorry for them. Can you imagine the scale of "What the fuck did I get into" they must be going through?...those are the guys who should be replaced by 18-30 year old pro war American patriots!

That's akin to somebody joining the fire department but thinking that they personally will never have to run into a burning building. I'm sure there are some who joined the military for a college degree. Some who joined for disaster relief or other humanitarian causes. There are probably those who joined for something to do until they can decide on another career. But they should not have been naive enough to think they would never see combat. You cannot run the military by clearing every campaign with every soldier. Their job is to go where they are told and do what they are told, whether they agree or not.

The problem with that is faith, you join thinking your the good guys fighting on the side of right, for good cause, with attainable goals and purpose and with the support of your country backing you up...

It is the political system, Reps and Dems both that have broken the faith with the military. Underequipped for a task that was not necessary, even detrimental to the country's interests...

Many Generals have resigned for these very reasons

but none with the balls of a von Stauffenberg unfortunately.....

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Friday, August 3, 2007 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
That's akin to somebody joining the fire department but thinking that they personally will never have to run into a burning building. I'm sure there are some who joined the military for a college degree. Some who joined for disaster relief or other humanitarian causes. There are probably those who joined for something to do until they can decide on another career. But they should not have been naive enough to think they would never see combat. You cannot run the military by clearing every campaign with every soldier. Their job is to go where they are told and do what they are told, whether they agree or not.

Finally we agree on something, a little bit, I understand that battles are won by disciplined soldiers, non-coms, and officers.

And I understand that now matter how you enlisted...drunk, on a dare, to be patriotic, etc...you are in the army now. Done.

However...they need lot's more soldiers, the surge wasn't alll they need right, just all they could find. I find it hard to believe that we can't pull together 100,000 enthusiastic pro war young people to stand behind the cause they support. I mean there is 340.000,000 people in this country, 1/2 are women=170,000,000 men, 2/3 are not of the age=56,000,000 that could go to Iraq and fight. 1/2 are 4F=28,000,000 potential young people to fight. Let's be VERY genrous and say only 1 in 4 republicans in that age group are pro war=

7,000,000 Pro war young men that COULD go to Iraq and fight. AND YOUR contry needs them to man up. The surge was 20,000 men.

Just think for a second about the math, go ahead and adjust the figures to suit how you see it.

Here is the plain truth to me...Pro war Americans treat this war as though it's a source of entertainment. 99% of the pro war people in this country that could serve....WON'T! Because of a mixed bag of excuses and selfish reasons. They want this war to go on, They should go do it themselves, because they have no excuse, and it's the right thing to do! Apparently there is nothing that will cause them to enlist for thier own cause

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 1:54 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Ya know what I was hoping for Nobody...I was hoping for a pro war person to say:

A. Ya know...I do feel strongly about the war, and maybe I should go, since I support it, and it seems like the right thing.

OR

B. Wow!...when I picture myself actualy enlisting and going over there to get shot at....fuck that! I ain't gettin killed, maybe I'll rethink my stance on the war, maybe become anti-war or I'll be a hypocrit.

In other words you were using a fallacious argument to attempt to coherence people into your point of view, and now you’re pissed because no one played your game and those that tried to make your game work got their rhetorical asses handed to them. There’s a reason for that – your argument is bullshit. It’s just the anti-war version of the “love it or leave it” argument.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, August 3, 2007 2:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
In other words you were using a fallacious argument to attempt to coherence people into your point of view, and now you’re pissed because no one played your game and those that tried to make your game work got their rhetorical asses handed to them. There’s a reason for that – your argument is bullshit. It’s just the anti-war version of the “love it or leave it” argument.

Easy does it there Finn...you'll blow a gasket
The only thing you did was delare my argument fallacious. So! I now and henforth delcare YOUR argument fallacious.....there!:tounge:

Seriously Finn, If you are 18-40, and you are pro war, if you don't enlist, you're a coward

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 4:38 PM

MAZAEN

Quote:
FREMDFIRMA- but I would be all for supporting and encouraging their women to stand up for themselves and demand better treatment, if needs be from behind a row of levelled AK's, but THEY have to want it, and THEY have to DO it, or it has no meaning or longterm effect.

I think that having women treated better in Iraq would also be an empowering thing for the country. It would probably go a long way to help the country be peaceful as women always increase peacefulness. Take for example how when the navy ships only allowed males onboard,how much swearing, ogaling and how rough it was on those vessels. Now females are serving on the navy ships, the male sailors don't fight, ogal and curse as much. Treating women equally has created a lot more peace on the ships in the navy. Having women and men working, praying and standing along side each other is something that could help Iraq become peaceful.

Quote:
MALBADINLATINSeriously Finn, If you are 18-40, and you are pro war, if you don't enlist, you're a coward

You called someone a coward. Dood you need to find some peace.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 7:12 PM

It's a pleasant thought, Maz, but I wouldn't trust it, no not one bit - I've known too many women!

Just ask Kipling about Afghani women.. and here's a hint, if they're running at you screaming "BADAL!" they're not gonna throw you a party, and save the last round for yourself.

Just so ya know

-F

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Friday, August 3, 2007 7:21 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Seriously Finn, If you are 18-40, and you are pro war, if you don't enlist, you're a coward

Really? That’s so cute.

I’m very confident that I’ve well paid for my “pro-war” opinions.

On the other hand, I’m anti-fire, or at least anti-‘my house burning down,’ and I’m not a fireman, nor have I ever been. I am deeply, deeply ashamed.

If you’re pro-abortion, you’re a coward if you don’t get aborted.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 7:41 PM

MAZAEN

Quote:
If you’re pro-abortion, you’re a coward if you don’t get aborted.

lol. shouldn't laugh. vaguely funny.

I've got one.
Men like a good meal. But men are cowards if they don't cook dinner.

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Friday, August 3, 2007 8:21 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by mazaen:
Men like a good meal. But men are cowards if they don't make dinner.

I’m not guilty of that one. I can cook like Giada De Laurentis. I’m just not as fun to look at while I’m cooking.

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Saturday, August 4, 2007 9:23 AM