How to win an argument with Liberals-Progressives-Socialists-etc... by Wulfenstar

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
HW, for all your "despising" of socialism, you are in fact a socialist. You won't like admitting it, but that's what you are.

Project much?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Friday, June 3, 2011 12:48 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

To summarize: (For those who can't or WON'T watch)

Obama had nothing to do with Osama Bin Ladens death..

How do you figure?

And how much credit do you give Bush for Bin Laden's death?

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Friday, June 3, 2011 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
HW, for all your "despising" of socialism, you are in fact a socialist. You won't like admitting it, but that's what you are.

Project much?

Not at all. I'm just telling you the truth.

Do you support the U.S. military?

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Friday, June 3, 2011 6:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
And leftists have never used the big lie strategy. Oh wait, what was the name of their party? National SOCIALIST party.

Hmm, I think I'm seeing a connection.

Here's a good rebuttal of that position, from the Political Compass's FAQs:

Quote:
Why is Hitler slightly right ? The Nazis were socialists, so they weren't fascists either.

Let's start with the second part first. Some respondents confuse Nazism, a political party platform, with fascism, which is a particular structure of government. Fascism legally sanctions the persecution of a particular group within the country - political, ethnic, religious - whatever.

Gays, "illegals", Muslims, those who listen to "radical" speeches...

Quote:
So within Nazism there are elements of fascism, as well as militarism, capitalism, socialism etc.

Not to mention nationalism, known here as "American exceptionalism". (Still waiting for Rappy's definition of that; I asked him yesterday, but he's been dodging the question.)

Quote:

To tar all socialists with the national socialist brush is as absurd as citing Bill Gates and Augusto Pinochet in the same breath as examples of free market capitalism.
Economically, Hitler was well to the right of Stalin. Post-war investigations led to a number of revelations about the cosy relationship between German corporations and the Reich.

Not unlike American corporations and the federal government. No-bid contracts come to mind.

Quote:

No such scandals subsequently surfaced in Russia, because Stalin had totally squashed the private sector. By contrast, once in power, the Nazis achieved rearmament through deficit spending.

Wait a minute - I think I know this tune! Reagan, Bush... ring any bells?

Quote:

One of our respondents has correctly pointed out that they actively discouraged demand increases because they wanted infrastructure investment. Under the Reich, corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts.

Here, we don't really demand that the corporations try to keep prices under control. It's all-you-can-eat time at the hog trough!

Quote:

Hardly a socialist economic agenda !
But Nazi corporate ties extended well beyond Germany. It is an extraordinarily little known fact that in 1933 a cabal of Wall Street financiers and industrialists plotted an armed coup against President Roosevelt and the US Constitutional form of government. The coup planners - all of them deeply hostile to socialism - were enthusiastic supporters of German national socialism and Italian fascism.

In other words, they were steadfast rightists like Hardware here.

Quote:

Details of the little publicised Congressional report on the failed coup may be read in 1000 Americans:The Real Rulers of the USA by George Seldes.
Fascism, according to the American Heritage Dictionary (1983) is A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.

"These Colors Don't Run!" "Love It or Leave It!" "Never Forget!"

Quote:

Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile's entry in the Encyclopedia Italiana read: Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. No less an authority on fascism than Mussolini was so pleased with that definition that he later claimed credit for it.
Nevertheless, within certain US circles,the misconception remains that fascism is essentially left wing, and that the Nazis were socialists simply because of the "socialism" in their name. We wonder if respondents who insist on uncritically accepting the Nazis' cynical self-definition would be quite as eager to believe that the German Democratic Republic was democratic.

It would be equally ludicrous to believe that tea-party libertarians represent "liberty" in any way.

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
I cannot abide socialists or communists. I think learning about how the Nazis treated my godparents, and then how they were treated by the communists in Poland shows that there was little difference to the common man. Both are equally reprehensible.

I'm with you, I despise marxism - and all the 'isms' it's spawned (I'm anti-ideological, across the whole spectrum). But blurring together communists and socialists, and social democrats (what the Socialist party of America is?), and then Democrats, is silly. I've heard conservatives don't like nuance, but that's ridiculous.

I think the difference between me and you (besides appreciation for nuance) is that I don't see marxists as something to worry about, or even as something relevant any more (except to people living in Cuba or Venezuela). The cold war has ended. In Europe we now talk about 'post-ideological politics'. In America you're still afraid of communists behind every bush. One of the things that never fails to amaze me about US politics...

It's not personal. It's just war.

The thing you are missing when you deride me for equating all of the leftist isms into one massive clusterfuck of wrong thinking, is this; all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.

And that is why I will go to any lengths to oppose them and any person who try to force those ridiculous politics on me.

The cold war may have ended, but those same leftists forces now have new names. Transnationists, humanists, and liberals. I can't imagine that the founders of the democratic party are spinning in their grave over the co-opting of their party by socialists.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.

Guess you don't like advertising then. Or investment decisions about where to place a factory or what to produce, and how much to pollute.

Say, how do you feel about the nuclear power industry deciding what's best for you? Are you ok with that?

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 12:46 PM

As a matter of fact, I don't like advertising. I expect people to use their land how they see fit. And their own ethics should guide how they do business.

Industry, nuclear power or not, is free to do business as it wants. In the long run ethical business pays greater returns than unethical practices. However, we have a brain dead executive population that cannot seem to grasp that.

For example, Johnson and Johnson, way back during the Tylenol murders could have tried to hush things up. Instead they were open and cooperative with authorities doing the investigations. They took steps to protect the public that would have removed any chance of profit for that year and perhaps several more. Instead, the public perception of them doing business ethically catapulted Tylenol into the lead of the analgesic market and made it one of their most profitable products. Ethical business practices pay huge dividends in the long run.

But, when industry does wrong I expect those executives to be called to account for their actions. Either with money, jail or a loaded weapon and some privacy.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 2:24 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.

Gee, I didn’t know that. I betcha millions and millions of “leftists” didn’t know that either. We must have missed the memo; I’m glad you think you know what we believe, it must make things much more comfortable for you. Doesn't matter that it's not true.

Quote:
In the long run ethical business pays greater returns than unethical practices.

That is just simply not true. PG&E has been around for decades and will be here for decades to come, and they are about as unethical as it gets. There are many, MANY more examples. Unethical practices pays great returns unless there is something/someone to keep them in check. What Johnson & Johnson did is far outweighed by so MANY other corporations getting away with so MUCH more, and you know it.

You think the coal industry is ethical? Want some facts? Or do you care?

Quote:
But, when industry does wrong I expect those executives to be called to account for their actions. Either with money, jail or a loaded weapon and some privacy.

I agree, but who’s GONNA? Industry gets away with tons every day, and even with people TRYING to call them to account, more of ‘em get away with stuff than don’t. Our way of calling them to account may be badly flawed, but it’s better than NOTHING.

By the way, "someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me" kind of applies to corporations deciding what's best for us; banks, health-care providers, investment speculators, the oil industry...all free enterprises which don't seem to be hindered in deciding what's "best" for us currently. Try explaining how the coal industry has decided what's best for the Applachian people and their environment, please.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 2:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

The thing you are missing when you deride me for equating all of the leftist isms into one massive clusterfuck of wrong thinking, is this; all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.

And that is why I will go to any lengths to oppose them and any person who try to force those ridiculous politics on me.

So quite clearly, you agree with me that we should never have gone into Iraq in 2003.

Quote:

The cold war may have ended, but those same leftists forces now have new names. Transnationists, humanists, and liberals. I can't imagine that the founders of the democratic party are spinning in their grave over the co-opting of their party by socialists.

So you now consider Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, and the entire GOP to be "leftists", eh?

Or are you such a hypocrite that you don't want someone else deciding FOR YOU, but you like the idea of your government deciding FOR OTHER NATIONS what is best for them?

Seems all you John Birch morons should be throwing a bitch-fit about your ideals being co-opted by socialists, too. The teabaggers are just another brand of socialist as well.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 3:10 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Socialists, Communists, and Fascists all have various strong differences, but they tend to succumb to authoritarianism and corruption.

Authoritarianism is usually either pretty bad or it blows up and becomes really bad. History seems to be one long struggle between the people in power (amongst themselves even), the people who envy that power, and the people who just want to live in peace.

Hmmm, disagree about the socialism thing there, Byte,

I note that for many Americans (now I am speaking generally here, and not directing this at you, Byte) there is a tendancy to consider Nazis as being on the left. This suprised me, as I was brought up learning a different kind of political spectrum, and Nazis were definitely far right. Far right = authoritarian government. Far left = no government. That was the ideology anyway.

The 20th century will be remembered as the century where people fought over ideology, rather than religion as has been the norm for much of that millenium. Personally, I think the 21st we've moved back to fighting over religion, but that is another argument.

I would pretty much have thought that those classifications of ideology were now outdated, and tend to be used only for pejorative purposes (see the title of this thread).

Communism, as espoused by Marx, never really existed in its pure form. It contained many flaws as a theory, the same sort of flaws I see that many people of libertarian leanings tend to have as well, in that it doesn't recognise natural power dynamics and therefore leaves itself open to abuse of power.

fascism seems to have died a death, and its been replaced by your stock standard nasty tyrannies which are kind of an historical norm in country leadership, rather than being exceptional.

Socialism is now just how some people described Keynesian type econonics, that is, the type of system that sees a role for government in influencing economy, rather than just free market forces. I guess, if any, that is the one ideological difference that is still a reality. Government intervention vs no government intervention. Even that is a bit of a lie, because people tend to have hotchpotchy inconsistent views. As with some posters here -

Government should keep their hands off my guns (snigger) but allowing them to imprison people indefinitely and use 'harsh interrogation techniques' and yes, also have the power to put to death people is okay.

The reality is that most people are not pure ideologists, but perhaps have leanings, but may hold a variety of views.

Edit - climate is the other divisive issue. Whether you call it ideological???? I think it crosses the spectrum, myself.

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 3:19 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
In the long run ethical business pays greater returns than unethical practices. However, we have a brain dead executive population that cannot seem to grasp that.

That would discount most of the international businesses operating in developing countries then, who pollute, pay their workers virtually nothing, exploit children, have dangerous and or unhealthy work practices, undermine local businesses, and I guess that's why outsourcing of labour is so popular these days.

The history of business is the history of exploitation. Trade unionism, empowerment of workers, and legislation have all provided business operations with limits, which go some way to preventing some of the worst exploitation that has taken place. Not people choosing to use products that are ethical. Ethical products are expensive. When there is exploitation, the price goes down. People like cheap.

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 3:45 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well said, Magons. Sadly, however,

Quote:
who pollute, pay their workers virtually nothing, exploit children, have dangerous and or unhealthy work practices, undermine local businesses

isn't unknown here, either. There's a law proposed (may have been passed by now, dunno) to change the child work laws so that younger kids can work, and to lower the "minimum wage" where young workers are concerned. Republicans, of course, helping us go backward to the days of no constraings on enterprise.

Lots of corporations pollute, either legally, with special dispensations, or illegally until someone notices (then they pay the "fine" and go right on in some cases...hi PG&E). BP is a prime example of "dangerous/unhealthy work practices (tho' there are many others), and we've got signs all over San Rafael reading "No Target in San Rafael"--they want to put one up, which would be disasterous for all the small businesses in town (currently we have no "big-box stores" like Walmart, etc., although there are a bunch of them just ten miles up the road!).

So unethical pays HERE, too, but it's SOOO much cheaper overseas, and they don't have to worry about American laws. If the Republicans have their way, we won't be much better.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 3:57 PM

Well, I agree with what you say to a degree. And perhaps socialism has not yet crossed over in most nations to out-and-out-authoritarianism. But I get this sense of it being on the way towards that, the more government power becomes consolidated to deal with all the other stuff, and the more power I see given to enforcement of laws.

Mostly I am wary that it all could become authoritarian frighteningly fast. But, I am more anti-authoritarian and anti-imperialism than I am anything else. I believe that the systems I mentioned, socialism, communism, even fascism COULD work... IF they avoided authoritarianism. And I think that it might be possible to do so. Which is why only said that I think they might TEND towards authoritarianism, as opposed to "all of them are and eventually will be authoritarian." I'm also not sure I would want to live in such a system of governance, but I'm willing to grant others might.

As for your left right view, it's not INCORRECT... But you have to look at how the ideologies work out in practice more than in theory I think. In America, even liberalism, which was then almost like my anarchism, somehow gave rise to Federalists. Weren't these people also the product of the same enlightenment era as anyone else? But no, somehow they twisted what was being wrought to try to mold it back into a monarchy, what would be in your opinion a right-wing move, and what would be in my estimation a "jerk" move from people who only wanted power and only stuck to principles in so far as it benefited them.

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 3:57 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

You know after reading this topic I'm starting to see why America is falling apart at the seams. You're all as bad as each other.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 4:00 PM

Thank you kindly.

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You know after reading this topic I'm starting to see why America is falling apart at the seams. You're all as bad as each other.

How so?

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
In the long run ethical business pays greater returns than unethical practices. However, we have a brain dead executive population that cannot seem to grasp that.

That would discount most of the international businesses operating in developing countries then, who pollute, pay their workers virtually nothing, exploit children, have dangerous and or unhealthy work practices, undermine local businesses, and I guess that's why outsourcing of labour is so popular these days.

Which brings up the question: If Nike or another manufacturer uses sweatshop labor and prison labor, but does so offshore - albeit KNOWINGLY nevertheless - then are those still "ethical" business practices?

Quote:

The history of business is the history of exploitation. Trade unionism, empowerment of workers, and legislation have all provided business operations with limits, which go some way to preventing some of the worst exploitation that has taken place. Not people choosing to use products that are ethical. Ethical products are expensive. When there is exploitation, the price goes down. People like cheap.

Yup. Why do people like Hardware think WalMart is so huge? Because of their "ethical" business practices?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:05 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

Rather than actually try to construct a coherent argument, people on both sides of the fence end just saying what is essentially "No, you."

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
You know after reading this topic I'm starting to see why America is falling apart at the seams. You're all as bad as each other.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

Is this how YOU construct a coherent argument?

Or aren't you just saying, in effect, "No, YOU!"?

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:15 PM

Dmaanlileiltt, there always must be at least one active thread that is a flame war on the board. This way, the natural tribal tendencies that have been embraced can be expressed.

Theoretically it would free the participants in the flame war to have non-flame war conversations in other threads. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and a board member may require more threads then are available to express the necessary tribalism.

In any case, all you can do is let it run it's course. Making comparisons between the United States and your country will usually only end up in yourself being pulled into an argument you probably don't want to have, unless you're intentionally trying to stir up the flame war or get both sides attacking you. What's more, any contrasts or superiority you can claim for your country is probably inaccurate - I do not know a single country on this Earth that doesn't have a political climate with competing ideologies.

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 9:16 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

Well spoken.

Byte, I was not saying that there are no differing opinions in other countries, but perhaps there is less respect for it in the US. I dislike "tribalism" and the way it encourages people to dismiss ideas based on the perceptions of those that came before rather than actually putting any of their own thoughts into it.

And I was not making comparisons between my country and the US (mine's just as bad), but I was making an observation that it seems like the US never had the type of perhaps begrudging respect for people on opposing sides that are still smart and, basically, good people. Perhaps "tribalism" is more entrenched in US culture as it seems impossible for people who are Republican and people who are Democrat to reconcile their differences.

At least based on what I've seen here.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 1:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

The thing you are missing when you deride me for equating all of the leftist isms into one massive clusterfuck of wrong thinking, is this; all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.

And that is why I will go to any lengths to oppose them and any person who try to force those ridiculous politics on me.

So quite clearly, you agree with me that we should never have gone into Iraq in 2003.
[\b][\quote]
Should we have gone to war in Afghanistan yes. Iraq, no. Iraq could have been titled; "Operation Clean Up After Daddy."
Quote:

Quote:

The cold war may have ended, but those same leftists forces now have new names. Transnationists, humanists, and liberals. I can't imagine that the founders of the democratic party are spinning in their grave over the co-opting of their party by socialists.

So you now consider Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, and the entire GOP to be "leftists", eh?

Or are you such a hypocrite that you don't want someone else deciding FOR YOU, but you like the idea of your government deciding FOR OTHER NATIONS what is best for them?

Seems all you John Birch morons should be throwing a bitch-fit about your ideals being co-opted by socialists, too. The teabaggers are just another brand of socialist as well.

Well, the Bush administration sure as hell weren't conservatives. Remember, dissatisfaction with the established order of the GOP is what spawned the Tea Party, not the existing gripes with the leftists.

Of course 0bama is doing that same deciding for other nations that Bush and Co. did. Recently telling Israel to pull back to their 1967 borders.

But as I've said before, democrat, republican, just the north and south face of shit mountain.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 1:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Well said, Magons. Sadly, however,
Quote:
who pollute, pay their workers virtually nothing, exploit children, have dangerous and or unhealthy work practices, undermine local businesses
isn't unknown here, either. There's a law proposed (may have been passed by now, dunno) to change the child work laws so that younger kids can work, and to lower the "minimum wage" where young workers are concerned. Republicans, of course, helping us go backward to the days of no constraings on enterprise.

Lots of corporations pollute, either legally, with special dispensations, or illegally until someone notices (then they pay the "fine" and go right on in some cases...hi PG&E). BP is a prime example of "dangerous/unhealthy work practices (tho' there are many others), and we've got signs all over San Rafael reading "No Target in San Rafael"--they want to put one up, which would be disasterous for all the small businesses in town (currently we have no "big-box stores" like Walmart, etc., although there are a bunch of them just ten miles up the road!).

So unethical pays HERE, too, but it's SOOO much cheaper overseas, and they don't have to worry about American laws. If the Republicans have their way, we won't be much better.

Once you wake up to the fact that cheap products are not worth the money, that changes. I believe in durable goods. I'm willing to vote with my wallet. I don't buy the shoddy junk that places like Harbor Freight sell. I'll save and do without until I can buy a quality product that will probably outlast me. I'm also willing to buy something second hand. I'd rather not pay $5 for a product built with no regard for longevity, 20 times. I'd rather scrimp and save to buy a well built $100 product once.

If that makes me an exception, then so be it. I believe this massive consumerism will be recognized as one of the causes of the downfall of western civilization.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 1:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Well, the Bush administration sure as hell weren't conservatives. Remember, dissatisfaction with the established order of the GOP is what spawned the Tea Party, not the existing gripes with the leftists.

But as I've said before, democrat, republican, just the north and south face of shit mountain.

Soooo... You despise all "leftists" because we're all a bunch of "socialists", which you cannot abide at all, because you hate socialism with a burning passion.

You consider all Democrats "leftists", and therefore "socialists".

You consider the GOP to be the same, just a bit different face.

You claim that the tea party grew out of the GOP, whom you've just claimed are a bunch of "leftists".

So EVERYONE in the U.S. political landscape is a "leftist", then?

Who do YOU support? Who did you vote for in the last couple election cycles? The leftists, or the leftists?

Quote:
Of course 0bama is doing that same deciding for other nations that Bush and Co. did. Recently telling Israel to pull back to their 1967 borders.

Yes, because suggesting a starting point for negotiations to a country (that we give billions of dollars in foreign aid to) is EXACTLY the same as invading them with an army of 150,000. I totally get that. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:18 AM

To be fair to Hardware, it sounds like his heart is in the right place. In my opinion it doesn't matter if you think both parties are more right-wing than you like or both parties are more left-wing, but rather that you dislike them both equally.

We can argue to death over what each party is, and those arguments would be influenced by tribalism - frankly, they're probably centrist to right wing, simply because underneath the stated positions and fluff they accept a lot of bribes from corporate special interests (because corporate America has money, y'see). But so long as we're all opposed to both of them because they're too authoritarian and imperialist, then I figure that doesn't really make us enemies.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:24 AM

But disliking them EQUALLY would equate to voting equally as well.

HW, do you vote for more Republicans than Democrats? Do you refuse to ever vote for either? Do you vote for them in equal numbers?

I mean, given that they're all socialists, and you've claimed that you can just never abide socialism in any degree, then how on Earth COULD you vote for any of them?

Did you vote for George W. Bush, ever?

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:39 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Once you wake up to the fact that cheap products are not worth the money, that changes.

For the majority of people, I don't think that's true. You're right, I think you're in the minority. If so, so am I. My husband will buy the cheapest thing available, because (much like me) he doesn't believe there IS such a thing as products that last. We're pretty convinced this has become such a "planned obsolescence" culture that nothing is made with the intent to last. However, unlike him I look at what's available, try to compare, and usually end up buying somewhere in the mid-range price. I don't think price necessarily determines quality.

But I don't think that's true for most people, especially not in this economy. We're also a very short-sighted culture, one of "I want it NOW", and people buy according to that mentality. I definitely agree that our form of consumerism has contributed to the weakening of our culture, but I don't think it's the main contributor.

I believe there was a time, by the way, when parties WERE less vitriolic--or more respectful if you will--of each other. It's come and gone over time, but in my lifetime, it's never been THIS bad. I wish it would stop swinging so far in either direction and get closer to the middle, but I'm not counting on it. For one thing, I've never seen any President treated with such complete disrespect as I see Obama. Maybe it's the Black thing, I don't know, but I hear things about him from people in power that I never heard about Bush, Clinton, or anyone before them. "People in power" is the opperant term; the general public have always had assholes, but nowadays elected officials have no problem speaking of him in terms I've never heard before. JMHO.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:25 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Quote:
"I believe there was a time, by the way, when parties WERE less vitriolic--or more respectful if you will--of each other. It's come and gone over time, but in my lifetime, it's never been THIS bad. I wish it would stop swinging so far in either direction and get closer to the middle, but I'm not counting on it. For one thing, I've never seen any President treated with such complete disrespect as I see Obama. Maybe it's the Black thing, I don't know, but I hear things about him from people in power that I never heard about Bush, Clinton, or anyone before them. "People in power" is the opperant term; the general public have always had assholes, but nowadays elected officials have no problem speaking of him in terms I've never heard before. JMHO. "

Tanslation:

If you don't like Obama you are...wait for it...

RACIST!

RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!

When your back is to a wall and you have nothing left...

or when their "ideas" are exposed to reality...

whats a lib to do but yell
"racist"!
or "anti-semetic"!
or "homophobe"!

Give it UP already!

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:44 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Honey, you should come back when you grow up. I said "Maybe it's the Black thing, I don't know." You come back with a silly long post claiming all kinds of things I didn't say or even hint at, and going off on some tangent or other, and that's supposed to have some kind of validity? Please try to keep up with the conversation, if you can. What you just did served to make preciesly the argument AGAINST "how to win" an argument with liberals. I thank you for that, but I'm sorry you wasted your time.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:22 AM

Y'know, Wulfie, it's pretty easy to tag you with the racist label when you routinely go around referring to "monkeys", "animals", "ghetto gangbangers", etc. And when you claim you want to "let a .308 round decide" who won the 2008 election, you really just throw your case in the dumpster.

You're a racist. We've all seen it, we've all heard it from you, in your own words. Don't try to hide it now.

By the way, you never did answer my question: Why is it that you say Obama deserves NONE of the credit for killing Bin Laden?

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:35 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Dude, Obama is black (or at least Halfrican). If you don't like Obama you don't like black people. That's how it works. This is elementary, like politics 101. You didn't know that? No wonder you are having a hard time winning against liberals.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 11:08 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, THAT's patently stupid. I've heard a lot of people talking about a lot of reasons people don't like Obama, and racism only comes up some of the time. Even that may be too much, but I hear "socialist", "communist", etc., come up a lot more.

And how about me? I half dislike Obama, so are you saying that makes me half a racist? The stupid thing is that so many are happy to think like you and Wulf, that anyone who disagrees is "playing the race card"...I recognize it's convenient, but it's not valid.

Then there's the fact that it doesn't mean someone doesn't like Black people if they don't like Obama. A LOT of those people live among, have friends and co-workers who are, and have no problem with African-Americans. But having one as President, having one with that much power, can bring out their subconscious prejudices (note I said "CAN BRING OUT" not flatly "brings out).

Things just aren't quite as black-and-white (pun intended) as you guys would like them to be, unfortunately. The world is a complex place, people are complex entities, and what you and Wulf say in this thread both has NO relation to what I actually said and is pathetically simplistic. I thought better of you, Happy.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 1:19 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Once you wake up to the fact that cheap products are not worth the money, that changes. I believe in durable goods. I'm willing to vote with my wallet. I don't buy the shoddy junk that places like Harbor Freight sell. I'll save and do without until I can buy a quality product that will probably outlast me. I'm also willing to buy something second hand. I'd rather not pay $5 for a product built with no regard for longevity, 20 times. I'd rather scrimp and save to buy a well built $100 product once.

If that makes me an exception, then so be it. I believe this massive consumerism will be recognized as one of the causes of the downfall of western civilization.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

You don't get it. Cheapest doesn'tnecessarily mean shoddy junk. Cheapest means that the company has done everything in its power to reduce the price for consumers in order to be competitive. And usually the way that you reduce cost is via labour costs, hence why companies have been sending labour intensive divisions to places where labour is cheap, and where you don't have to get involved in all those expensive things like offering retirement benefits, holiday and sick pay, or follow pesky health and safety regulations, or child labour laws, or regulations about how much pollution your company dumps into waterways or landfill or the air.

And massive consumption of cheap/affordable goods is what makes our capitalist world go around, my friend. If there is a drop in spending, the economists start wringing their hands and talking about recession in doom laden tones.

Live Consume Die

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 1:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
But disliking them EQUALLY would equate to voting equally as well.

HW, do you vote for more Republicans than Democrats? Do you refuse to ever vote for either? Do you vote for them in equal numbers?

I mean, given that they're all socialists, and you've claimed that you can just never abide socialism in any degree, then how on Earth COULD you vote for any of them?

Did you vote for George W. Bush, ever?

I think the more important question is did I ever vote for G. W. Bush in the republican primaries? The answer to that is, no. I did vote for him in the presidential elections because I felt he was a less objectionable candidate than Gore or Kerry.

Sad to say that this is what our presidential elections have devolved to. Least objectionable instead of best qualified.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yes, because suggesting a starting point for negotiations to a country (that we give billions of dollars in foreign aid to) is EXACTLY the same as invading them with an army of 150,000. I totally get that. ;)

So you think that money buys us the right to dictate policy to a sovereign nation? Uhm,.. No. All 0bama is doing is alienating a foreign nation that supports us more often than our closest allies and depriving himself of the popular Jewish support for the next election. Old Jews don't vote for someone who advocates endangering Israel. See 0bama's poll numbers plummet in Florida and New Jersey.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 2:35 PM

Quote:

So you think that money buys us the right to dictate policy to a sovereign nation?

"Dictate"? No. But it definitely buys us a seat at the negotiating table, and the voice with which to make a suggestion or two, doesn't it? I mean, nobody says Israel *has to* take our suggestions... but then again, nobody says we *have to* give them a single thin dime, right?

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 2:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
No. All 0bama is doing is alienating a foreign nation that supports us more often than our closest allies and depriving himself of the popular Jewish support for the next election.

In real terms, what has Israel ever done for us? Do they export oil? Er... no. Do they give us a break on their pharmaceuticals? Sadly... no. Can we even claim they are an example of what a functioning democracy looks like? Well... yes, if you're willing to overlook the open-air prisons of Gaza and the West Bank.

Other than the historical accident that the USA wound up being the destination for a lot of emigrant Jews, what really DOES tie us to Israel anyway?

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 3:28 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Interesting that this thread has gone on to discuss numerous things, while it's "sister thread" about conservatives died a quick death. Wonder what that says? Not being snide here, actually do wonder.

The only answer to "what does Israel do for us" that I can think of is "only ally in that area", tho' I'm not sure, as the saying goes, whether with friends like that... y'know?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 3:44 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Other than the historical accident that the USA wound up being the destination for a lot of emigrant Jews, what really DOES tie us to Israel anyway?

Evangelical Christianity...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:53 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

This whole thread is kind of pointless IMO, but that's just me. I'm not putting a lot of thought into, just snarking (thought that was obvious). There are plenty not me who seem to be enjoying it and I'm not advocating they stop.

I often feel like I am the only one not allowed to snark. Of course that's an exaggeration and probably just looks bigger from my perspective, but sometimes I don't know whether to be flattered that I'm thought to be above petty amusements or to wonder why many are so much more critical of non-liberals. Probably just 'cause there is more liberals in Internet land. And at this point I am really just thinking out loud... but whatever. I hope isn't too disappointing.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:21 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I didn't realize you were snarking, Happy. That makes more sense, and fits with the picture I have of you. It's hard to tell sometimes...what you wrote could so easily have been Wulf replying to Raptor or vice versa, from the wording.

You are CERTAINLY allowed to snark, dear, everyone is and most people DO. A number of our non-snarkers, i.e., the polite, have for the most part disappeared, and you are normally so up-front and non-snarking that it's easy for me to miss it when you do. That good old bugaboo of the internet: no vocal inflection, facial expression or body movements to read to put things in context. I'm sorry you got the feeling you're snarking is frowned on, it certainly isn't and I'd far rather read the way you do it than some of the snarking that goes on here!

As to more liberals in internet land, I'm wondering if you get that feeling from being here. Here, recently at least (it wasn't that way when I arrived), there are more moderates, liberals and others than die-hard conservatives, and of those conservatives, a number of them tend to be rather, shall we say, "flamboyant". That triggers others into responding more, and more virulently, than they otherwise might. I've about given up hoping for many reasonable, intelligent conservative voices to appear here. That might explain why it seems to you that "many are so much more critical of non-liberals". I have seen FAR more nasty "criticism" (to use the term loosely) of liberals here than of conservatives, but a lot of those voices seem to have disappeared.

I looked around and found this comment on a website:

Quote:
I noticed that when there's a political article on the internet or something on Yahoo answers asking about Obama that there are far more comments against him. Also in political issues, conservatives on posts seem to outnumber others and give more thumbs up for example.

Assume that neither side is the "correct" one for a moment. I have taken Statistics, and the President's general support is still around 50%, but the internet numbers are stacked against him like 70-20-10( nonsensical).

What's going on? Do conservatives have more internet connectivity and time to post? Where is the other side?

I'm just wondering why there is a disparity in numbers.

That’s just one person’s observation, of course, which is the opposite of what you believe.

I did find this:

Quote:
In studying Usenet political groups, Davis looked at the political ideology of the groups that posters subscribed to, and found “the vast majority belonged to groups on the ideological right. This was true across all groups analyzed… which suggests Usenet posters likely are more right-wing ideologically than the general public” (Davis 1999: 155-6).

Alterman makes the following claim: “While the Internet has enormous value for more reasons and purposes than can be profitably counted… for political purposes it turns out to have a great deal in common with radio. Not unlike the way in which the irresponsible right-wing talk-show network forms its own self-referential information circuit, ‘news’ on the Net is passed along from one site to another with little concern for credibility. Also like radio, this tactic of combining the verifiable with a metaphorical microphone has been perfected by the far right to create a doubly deceitful dynamic of ideological extremism, false information, and accusation against which truth—and liberalism—have little chance to compete” (Alterman 2003: 75). He points to specific websites as evidence of conservative dominance: “Web sites like Drudge Report, NewsMax.com, WorldNetDaily.com, FreeRepublic.com, Townhall.com, Lucianne.com, JewishWorldReview.com, and National Review Online boast regular readers in the millions. What’s more, they are dedicated readers and in many cases…so far to the right as to tend toward outer space” (Alterman 2003: 75-6). He does point out that “Liberals, of course, have their own sites, and some generate a great deal of traffic. But the best known, Salon.con and Slate.com, are run by journalists, not activists” (Alterman 2003: 76). Looking more specifically at the conservative website FreeRepublic.com, he points out that “the average ‘Freeper’ Web visit lasts an amazing five hours and fourteen minutes. It’s not a hobby for these people, it’s a life.” (Alterman 2003: 76).

More at http://cmanthropology.livejournal.com/7823.html

This, again, is mostly one person’s observations, and they appear to lean left. Just a “for what it’s worth”, partly because it reflects what I feel I have observed.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:22 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

By the way, yes, absolutely it is pointless, has been from the beginning what with Wulf's multiple video absurdity. I just found it interesting that it had gone on to other subjects, while its opposite number died for lack of interest.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Give it UP already!

Wulfie, every time you open your mouth it reminds us all that the lowest common denominator can always get just a bit lower - you know that, right ?

Not to mention your argument fails in two specific ways, the first of which being that you *ARE* in fact a Racist, but too much of a cowardly bitch to own your own flaws, not the least of which is running full speed AWAY from anything that might require actual effort or sacrifice on your own part, despite being completely willing to force others to sacrifice their rights or income for things that benefit you and your agenda, which makes you a hypocrite as well as a coward.

The second place your idiotic lie of an argument fails is that your own willful, intentional, and downright fucking ignorant inability to see or hear anything that doesn't jive with your false little plastic bubble worldview has blinded you to the fact that most of the more liberal and progressive folk around here are *NOT* too pleased with Obama, since regardless of what comes out of his mouth, his policies are little more than a continuation of the same agenda Bush had - which would be a greater strike against him, and possibly wind up getting him voted out, were it not for the problem that the other party is offering naught but a bunch of insane, incoherent lunatics backed up by folk who would take all that is desperately wrong with our current policies and amplify it a hundredfold, on purpose, out of no apparent reason but sheer partisan malice combined with a level of unspoken racism and intolerance that would turn the stomach of any decent human being.
Which of course, leaves you out.

So it ain't that folk around here even like that pissant Obama, so much as he becomes infinately preferable to the unremitting sleaze offered to replace him - a situation much like what has led Detroit to become a fucking wasteland, cause no one is willing to step up their game, and the only choice people have is whichever slimeball is at best, less destructive to all they hold dear.

Of course, this is all but lost on YOUR jackboot licking fascist ass, but it's worth pointing out once again that the most horrific thing that could ever happen to you, is getting exactly what you WANT.

And as they dragged you off to your inevitable fate...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RewardedAsATraitorDeserves

And you scream and wail and cry that you never wanted this - I hope to be there, should that come to pass.
(In fact, given my tendancy to fifth-column, I'd hope to be the one doing the dragging

)
And will happily inform you that in fact this is EXACTLY what you wanted, you just wanted it to happen to someone else, and ain't that just a pity ?

Which doesn't mean I don't think Obama is a liar, a dickhead, and damn well should be impeached for following up policies and abuses YOUR dumb ass enabled, cheering all the way, when your beloved would-be Neofeudalist was in power, I just don't want YOUR "help" cause I know how counterproductive and useless it is - and how much of a treacherous, cowardly little racist bitch YOU are, who'd turn on anyone in a heartbeat the instant they required more than smacktalk and lip service from you.

And speaking of "Allies" who are no such thing, do I really *need* to dredge up the list of all the bullshit Israel has pulled on us, again ?
Better idea, name ONE FUCKING THING, they have ever done FOR us, instead of TO us, in a solid, material way.
And no, riling up the middle east and *creating* terrorists by depriving them of all hope of a better life under their lash doesn't friggin count - unless you're employed by or profiting from, our war machine.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, June 6, 2011 6:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

A long time ago, I posted a story about a group of ...people... raping a young girl for hours, as a crowd looked on.

The responses I got from the left-minded people here were.... maddening, horrible, (whats a word for people who make you wish you were an alien that could swoop down and throw all of the people who thought like they did into the sun?)

Then I came across this,

and that hatred turned to understanding... then pity.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, June 6, 2011 7:29 AM

Every now and then I look around and wonder, where am I? And where did all this cotton candy come from?

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Monday, June 6, 2011 7:29 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"The responses I got from the left-minded people here were.... maddening, horrible ..."

NO, it's what YOU ASSUMED how other people responded.

You ASSUMED people wrote 'do nothing'. The ACTUAL responses were quite different than that. Maybe you deserve the pity, considering you are so blinded by your emotions you literally can't comprehend a response different from your own.

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Monday, June 6, 2011 7:39 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Liar. I was here, as were others, for that discussion. You were just pissed because we didn't think charging in, gun a-blazing, was a good answer, just a reflection of your own reflexive "nuke 'em!" mentality. Good suggestions were made about cell phoning the police, and the best as I recall was using one's car to scatter the rapists. You just didn't LIKE the answers, since you can't think beyond the gun in your pants. So you come back later and infer something exactly the opposite.

I have no DOUBT you found the logical suggestions "maddening, horrible", since you're incapable of conceiving of anything but your way, however actually ineffective it might be. Hey, it involves guns and killing people, gotta be good. That doesn't change what really happened.

You just shot yourself in the foot by admitting that, if you had your way, you'd kill everyone who doesn't think like you. That about says it all, and confirms what everyone's been saying to/about you. You have also repeatedly and quite well destroyed your own snarky topic, which was never put up in the first place except to spew your hatred and as an excuse to put up a whole bunch of your stupid meaningless videos. You're just like PN in that, except you put each one in individual posts and posted the URL rather than the video itself. I don't know what you think this new tactic will get you, but I'm still not interested in any fantasy or slur video you put up, and I think quite a few feel the same. At least by putting up URLs, you save us the trouble of scrolling past an entire video window.

Frem: Wow! Talk about ripping him a new one! Not precisely how I would have put it, but on the mark nonetheless.

You of course expected no more response than what you got; to totally ignore everything you said and go off on some other tangent. Hope you enjoyed getting it out and it didn't take too much time, given it of course had no impact whatsoever. Enjoyed reading it, tho', and thanx for blasting so the rest of us don't have to feel guilty for really tearing into him. I fully understand your frustration!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 6, 2011 9:18 AM