REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Are Americans a Broken People?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, November 25, 2021 17:30
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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Can people become so broken that truths of how they are being screwed do not "set them free" but instead further demoralize them? Has such a demoralization happened in the United States?...

When people become broken, they cannot act on truths of injustice. Furthermore, when people have become broken, more truths about how they have been victimized can lead to shame about how they have allowed it. And shame, like fear, is one more way we become even more psychologically broken.

U.S. citizens do not actively protest obvious injustices for the same reasons that people cannot leave their abusive spouses: They feel helpless to effect change. The more we don't act, the weaker we get. And ultimately to deal with the painful humiliation over inaction in the face of an oppressor, we move to shut-down mode and use escape strategies such as depression, substance abuse, and other diversions, which further keep us from acting. This is the vicious cycle of all abuse syndromes.
Perhaps the "political genius" of the Bush-Cheney regime was in their full realization that Americans were so broken that the regime could get away with damn near anything. And the more people did nothing about the boot slamming on their faces, the weaker people became....

The U.S. government-corporate partnership has used its share of guns and terror to break Native Americans, labor union organizers, and other dissidents and activists. But today, most U.S. citizens are broken by financial fears. There is potential legal debt if we speak out against a powerful authority, and all kinds of other debt if we do not comply on the job. Young people are broken by college-loan debts and fear of having no health insurance.

The U.S. population is increasingly broken by the social isolation created by corporate-governmental policies. A 2006 American Sociological Review study ("Social Isolation in America: Changes in Core Discussion Networks over Two Decades") reported that, in 2004, 25 percent of Americans did not have a single confidant. (In 1985, 10 percent of Americans reported not having a single confidant.)...

We are also broken by a corporate-government partnership that has rendered most of us out of control when it comes to the basic necessities of life, including our food supply. And we, like many other people in the world, are broken by socializing institutions that alienate us from our basic humanitA long list of school critics from Henry David Thoreau to John Dewey, John Holt, Paul Goodman, Jonathan Kozol, Alfie Kohn, Ivan Illich, and John Taylor Gatto have pointed out that a school is nothing less than a miniature society: what young people experience in schools is the chief means of creating our future society. Schools are routinely places where kids -- through fear -- learn to comply to authorities for whom they often have no respect, and to regurgitate material they often find meaningless. These are great ways of breaking someone.

Today, U.S. colleges and universities have increasingly become places where young people are merely acquiring degree credentials -- badges of compliance for corporate employers -- in exchange for learning to accept bureaucratic domination and enslaving debt.


www.alternet.org/politics/144529/are_americans_a_broken_people_why_we%
27ve_stopped_fighting_back_against_the_forces_of_oppression?page=entire






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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:21 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Playing with 'Monopoly money' in a game that cannot be won , yes that is demoralizing...

Why would anyone expect otherwise ?

Everything is Broken :

Broken lines, broken strings,
Broken threads, broken springs,
Broken idols, broken heads,
People sleeping in broken beds.
Ain't no use jiving
Ain't no use joking
Everything is broken.

Broken bottles, broken plates,
Broken switches, broken gates,
Broken dishes, broken parts,
Streets are filled with broken hearts.
Broken words never meant to be spoken,
Everything is broken.

Bridge: Seem like every time you stop and turn around
Something else just hit the ground

Broken cutters, broken saws,
Broken buckles, broken laws,
Broken bodies, broken bones,
Broken voices on broken phones.
Take a deep breath, feel like you're chokin',
Everything is broken.

Bridge: Every time you leave and go off someplace
Things fall to pieces in my face

Broken hands on broken ploughs,
Broken treaties, broken vows,
Broken pipes, broken tools,
People bending broken rules.
Hound dog howling, bull frog croaking,
Everything is broken.




http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7065177340464808778#


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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


O2B: Indeed.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:35 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


In answer to your titles question...

NEVER.

Beaten, but never broken.

So long as one person remains free.

NEVER.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You say "never" and yet.... things are going downhill, and nobody doing much about it.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Are Americans a Broken People?

Some are.

Some aren't.

Some would be broken no matter how well the country works.

Some will never be broken no matter how badly the country works.

Does the idea of Americans as a Broken People make you feel better, or more justified?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Its always darkest before the dawn.

Besides, a free society must... from time to time...expunge the poison in itself.


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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:46 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

We are also broken by a corporate-government partnership that has rendered most of us out of control when it comes to the basic necessities of life, including our food supply. And we, like many other people in the world, are broken by socializing institutions that alienate us from our basic humanity long list of school critics from Henry David Thoreau to John Dewey, John Holt, Paul Goodman, Jonathan Kozol, Alfie Kohn, Ivan Illich, and John Taylor Gatto have pointed out that a school is nothing less than a miniature society: what young people experience in schools is the chief means of creating our future society. Schools are routinely places where kids -- through fear -- learn to comply to authorities for whom they often have no respect, and to regurgitate material they often find meaningless. These are great ways of breaking someone.

It's good to know that folks are finally seeing this and calling it out.

I've fought "The Breakers" all my life, because of the very problems this article outlines, dumping sand in the works at every turn and corner - this article doesn't touch on the hellcamps and forced medication issues, but rather the core issue of, again, the abuse we commit in the name of raising kids, which pollutes our entire society.

We're beginning finally to see a slight tidal shift in the matter, Sudbury Schools, the fall of the Hellcamps, people speaking out and standing up, even articles like this - wasn't that long ago folks like John Taylor Gatto and Alice Miller were given about the same regard as PirateNews, because it was so much easier to dismiss them than face the truths of what they have been saying.

But that tide WILL turn, because natural human instinct is not what we have been told it is, not what we have been hammered into believing it is, and every human contact that isn't malicious or exploitive just proves it that much more, and with that solid core of human nature, one can resist most of this, just as a good parent-child relationship causes most kids to blow off predators before they get their hooks in.

To put it simply, sane people make a sane society, and finally people are asking the question, out loud and in public - "What the hell are we doing here ?" - and that is as good a sign as one could hope for.

Cause that's what it's all about, innit ?

Hope.

I tend to lose sight of that when busy puttin a boot to some ass, and as such, appreciate the reminder.

On a related, but amusing note, imma share this bit with you out of my inbox this morning.

School suspends 'crisp dealer'
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_3599919.html

You just have to laugh - the only reason the powers that be really control anything is cause we let em - imagine what'd happen if we just pointed and laughed instead ?

-F

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Cause that's what it's all about, innit ?

Hope."

Exactly.

Noone ever listens to me...

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Noone ever listens to me...
Maybe if you stopped calling people cowards and bitches they might.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:00 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Maybe if you stopped calling people cowards and bitches they might."

lol

True. But then again, I can't be helped in calling a spade a spade.

(Before you jump on me, I didn't mean it in a racist way)

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:00 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Are Americans a Broken People?


Yes!

In days gone by there were social and political differences among citizens for sure, but Americans could come together on big things and be one people when needed. But now, everything is so acutely polarized and so politically correct that I fear any trace of "common bond" is gone.

You have your vision, and you have your disappointments with the state of things in America. So do I, but from a much different perspective. Ultimately we cannot even agree on what's wrong or right. That makes it tough to move forward without further alienation and disenchantment.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Does the idea of Americans as a Broken People make you feel better, or more justified?
Why would you say THAT? (Other than you being your usual dickheaded self of course.) Does it make YOU feel more justified, or better? If you really want to know, just ask. You clearly don't, but I'll tell you anyway:

It makes me feel very sad.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:02 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


I think that's a big, steamy pile

Some people like to feel like they're part of the down trodden, the underdogs, the broken because it helps comfort them. "Why am I not...?"

As far as us going quietly, just the opposite. Town Halls anyone? By any measure, we have filled the airwaves, print media and most of the Internet with anger and complaints and endless overlapping streams of uninformed opinions. The only thing that is broken is our ability to FOCUS, and block out all the noise.

This sounds like an *intellectual* trying a little too hard imho.

"Television: In his book Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television (1978), Jerry Mander (after reviewing totalitarian critics such as George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, Jacques Ellul, and Ivan Illich) compiled a list of the "Eight Ideal Conditions for the Flowering of Autocracy."

Mander claimed that television helps create all eight conditions for breaking a population. Television, he explained, (1) occupies people so that they don't know themselves -- and what a human being is; (2) separates people from one another; (3) creates sensory deprivation; (4) occupies the mind and fills the brain with prearranged experience and thought; (5) encourages drug use to dampen dissatisfaction (while TV itself produces a drug-like effect, this was compounded in 1997 the U.S. Food and Drug Administration relaxing the rules of prescription-drug advertising); (6) centralizes knowledge and information; (7) eliminates or "museumize" other cultures to eliminate comparisons; and (8) redefines happiness and the meaning of life."

Also, someone who doesn't like change.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I can't be helped in calling a spade a spade.
And what if you're wrong? What if the people you think of as cowards are actually very brave? What if the people you think of as bitches are actually nicer than you? (That's not too much of a challenge, tho.)

You see, Wulf, you think you really know it all. Coming from someone who can't even explain himself w/o resorting to a video clip, I would say you don't even know yourself.


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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:06 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Except, we are all allowed our opinions. I can say you are a bitch and a coward for refusing to defend the weak. Or for saying that we are not allowed to speak our minds, or to protect ourselves. Its my opinion, but still?

I am allowed it.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:09 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I may disagree with what you say, sir.. but I will defend with my life, your right to say it."

Until you understand that, yes.... Bitches and cowards.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Of course you are. But we're also allowed not to listen, eh? So why whine about peeps not listening to you? It's just more of the same... you're always throwing temper tantrums anyway (just like Geezer is always putting words into people's mouths). Your time would be better spent improving the quality and insight of your posts.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Jongsstraw- I suspect, though, that we are both reacting to the same issues and there are more areas of agreement between the two of us than you might imagine.

One of the things I think people are reacting to is the sense that "things" are too distant, too complex, too immoveable, too centralized - government, business, the way we make our living

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:31 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


One thing that give me hope

years ago, when this board started I brought up many of the issues we still discuss today, and was faced with a wall of " America is the best country ever " and we can do no wrong crap.


Now, after eight or is it nine? years of Bush I think many Americans are starting to see America the way people outside the US see it

kind of a geopolitical 12 step program

your starting to admit there is a problem




Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 12:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Huh.

Interesting viewpoint.

I read a book... mnay years ago... given to me by an politically brilliant person who was also a recovering alcoholic. Basically, it said Americans (in general) are addicted. Addicted to their ideology, addicted to their view of the world. It said you would see all of the problems with Americans that you would see with addicts in general- denial (sometimes quite angry), "hair of the dog", etc. and that Americans (in general) would have to "hit bottom" before recovery.

It was a simple point, but every time I wondered why Americans did what they did, the addiction analogy seemed to fit. Also, I found this which seems to apply:
Quote:

A client once told me about his experiences with bottoms; how he continually ended up in jail, continually lost stuff, i.e.; cars, apartments, friends, family, etc.. {You can substitute Treasury, manufacturing capability, respect} I asked him why he kept hitting these bottoms and he replied, "Dr. XXX, when you have no self-esteem to begin with, there are no limits to your bottoms." It was a brilliant, classic statement coming from a twenty-two year old addict. Essentially, the worse one feels about himself, the lower he will allow the disease to take him before choosing to get into recovery. Generally, people with healthier mental attitudes towards themselves get into recovery much more quickly than those who do not. When you don't feel good about yourself, and you're drinking and drugging, no matter what bottom you hit, you can always find a shovel and keep digging.
Seems apt.



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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Cause that's what it's all about, innit ?

Hope."

Exactly.

Noone ever listens to me...



Noone? You mean Peter Noone, leader of Herman's Hermits?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Except, we are all allowed our opinions. I can say you are a bitch and a coward for refusing to defend the weak. Or for saying that we are not allowed to speak our minds, or to protect ourselves. Its my opinion, but still?

I am allowed it.



Yup, and I can say you're a bitch-ass coward for running away from the simplest of questions, and refusing to admit you were completely wrong on your Superman BS that you claimed to know so well...

And what's with all this "defend the weak" bullshit from you? You, who actually listed Leonidas of Sparta as one of your "heroes". You know what the Spartans did with the weak, right? You KNOW what they did with any child deemed "unworthy" by their council of elders, RIGHT? So here's your hero, tossing babies off cliffs and into the pit for the crime of being "weak", while you call others bitches and cowards for not holding up your heroes as their own.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Now, after eight or is it nine? years of Bush...



Ouch, Gino. And, touché. Hate to say it, but that's pretty damned accurate. :(

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:03 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Hey, whattayaknow - Wulfie actually finally DID address the question in the other thread. And he even admitted he "might" be wrong on that one, too.

Will wonders never cease...

Your bitchiness and cowardice are less, in my opinion. ;)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Are Americans a Broken People?

Some are.

Some aren't.

Some would be broken no matter how well the country works.

Some will never be broken no matter how badly the country works.

Does the idea of Americans as a Broken People make you feel better, or more justified?

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Trying to change the subject? Or just assigning meanings to someone's words that they never implied or wrote?

Quote:



Dear Kettle,

You're black!

Signed,

The Pot





Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:28 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Are Americans a Broken People?

Some are.

Some aren't.

Some would be broken no matter how well the country works.

Some will never be broken no matter how badly the country works.

Does the idea of Americans as a Broken People make you feel better, or more justified?

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Trying to change the subject? Or just assigning meanings to someone's words that they never implied or wrote?

Quote:



Dear Kettle,

You're black!

Signed,

The Pot





Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde




The irony here is funny

Chief Black Kettle (Cheyenne, Moke-tav-a-to)[1] (born ca. 1803, killed November 27, 1868) was a Cheyenne leader who unsuccessfully attempted to resist white American settlement from Kansas and Colorado territories. He survived the Sand Creek Massacre in 1864 but died in the 1868 at the Battle of Washita River.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Kettle





Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


But that brings up an interesting topic.

So we have an example of a "broken people"- native Americans. People faced with overwhelmingly superior force, who could neither fight back nor become part of the system and enjoy its rewards. Whose entire way of life was shown to be ineffectual. People for whom nothing they did made a difference.

Are we... possibly... looking at ourselves?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:28 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Why would you say THAT?



Because it seems to be the theme in pretty much all your posts. You seem, to me, to just revel in any problems that America might have. You also seem to ignore or downplay the gains in racial equality, sexual equality and acceptance of gender differences that have occurred over the last 50 or so years and continue to occur. You seek out the bad news and leave out any good. You mock and insult anyone who suggests that there may be any hope at all. You complain about everything but offer solutions for nothing.

Perhaps the world hasn't treated you as you think you deserve, and you have to have something to blame.

Just for fun, this goes for Rue and Mike too.

I'll go put on my firesuit now.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

Because it seems to be the theme in pretty much all your posts. You seem, to me, to just revel in any problems that America might have. You also seem to ignore or downplay the gains in racial equality, sexual equality and acceptance of gender differences that have occurred over the last 50 or so years and continue to occur. You seek out the bad news and leave out any good. You mock and insult anyone who suggests that there may be any hope at all. You complain about everything but offer solutions for nothing.

Perhaps the world hasn't treated you as you think you deserve, and you have to have something to blame.

Just for fun, this goes for Rue and Mike too.

I'll go put on my firesuit now.



And your theme, Geez?

That no matter what America does, we're right, everyone else is wrong, end of story. You rejoice in every problem that America might create for others, and insist that we're just invading them to "show them the light of truth". You utterly ignore any racial inequality or gender inequality, saying it simply doesn't exist. You ignore any bad news and try to paint it as good. You're the kind of person who looks back fondly at slavery, and says, "Y'know, those people were lucky they had a roof over their heads! They should be THANKING us - dammit, they should be paying US back rent!" You mock and insult anyone who suggests that there may be any problem at all, and you complain about everything those "nasty libruls" say, while (in typical Republican fashion) offering nothing whatsoever by way of any kind of solution.

And when you're called on your constant hypocrisy, you whine and pewl about how you're not being treated fairly.



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:14 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


I'm broke but not broken.

Would you help a friend whose mother was murdered by a govt hitman?

I did. He got an arrest and conviction, his 2nd for murder. I got a bullet hole in my car. Prosecutor got fired. Killer's now free and working in the prosecutor's office.
www.piratenews.org/newslinks.html

But at least I tried. Victim's family got me started in the car business. Made a lot of money, back when biz was boomin, workin with other hitmen.

Now I wage war on the airwaves, on TV and radio, reaching 500,000 sheeple. Over 10-million have seen my websites and videos. Does it make a difference? At least 3 folks won in court so far, agaisnt "impossible" odds, with my personal coaching. It's a start.

Key is mass production of weapons of mass instruction. Still workin on that.

90% of sheeple will meekly march with their kids into the mass graves, to get a bullet in the head by their local traffic cops, as proven in Nazi Germany. 60-million Americans have murdered their own kids since 1973. Today black Americans murder over 50% of their kids. Medical doctors murder another 1-million adults every year in USA.

Only 6% fought in the American Revolution, 3% patriots, 3% traitors. Feds killed 1-million Americans in the Civil War.

Doin good is easy. Surviving govt genocide programs is hard.

Here's a litte ditty to cheer you up:


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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:15 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
You seem, to me, to just revel in any problems that America might have.

Whoah Geeze do you miss the point.
Did you even WATCH Firefly???
RECOGNIZING is different than REVELING.
We bitch about Bush's (Cheney's really) actions & you call foul. We bitch about Obama's inactions & you call foul.

Grow up, willya? Willya? Are you a kid masquerading as an adult?
Is Geezer really a twenty-something punk?




The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Pffth, I don't do excuses, I try - and yeah, sometimes I play rough.

Almost outta time, but someone brought up television, and imma address that in about an hour or so, I think.

-F

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Okay, now I don't watch TV, mostly cause it's drivel and I am well aware of how flawed the medium is...

Society for the Eradication of Television*
http://www.webwm.com/set/

But I have to call some blame onto the internet as well, while it's done wonders for communication and crushing racism, there's the social isolation factor and the lack of interpersonal diplomacy skills since you are dealing with people you can just "turn off" at a whim, which also gives rise to the GIFT theory.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT

But then, dehumanising them in the first place is what leads to them never developing those skills, and if we don't do that, they tend to develop and evolve pretty naturally, in most people - you still got a few aberrants, but not nearly the amount when we actively try to strip humanity from our kids.

And even when we do, it doesn't work on all of em, and without the hellcamps, and the newer phenomenae of "medication-resistant" children...
(Thank You, Mother Nature!)

Well, there's hope for us, yet, eh ?

-Frem
PS: *Don't laugh, I was also a card carryin founder for the restoration of the red M&M, and we won that one, lol.

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 3:32 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:

Doin good is easy. Surviving govt genocide programs is hard.



Hey! Quote of the day! I want bumper stickers and badges.

Frem - never give you enough credit for the work you do - consider this a blank check shoutout ('sbout all the money I can spare right now anyway).

fwiw - Can we give up the "Let's change Wulf crusade?"

"Broken?" Glass is half full, half empty... and dirty and the water is tainted...you will see what you want to. A while back we had a thread about "what would you do with Iran?" and I was noticing how everyone responded as if they were Iran and how they would want to be treated and then projected - natural, same here. Your life circumstances are probably dictating what you see.

I think if you look over the last 100 years and put our time/problems next ones from other tough years you might see that we're actually doing above average IN GENERAL. The Great Depression, WWI, WWII, come to mind. I don't think we've bottomed as far as we did in those eras.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 4:33 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And your theme, Geez?

That no matter what America does, we're right, everyone else is wrong, end of story. You rejoice in every problem that America might create for others, and insist that we're just invading them to "show them the light of truth". You utterly ignore any racial inequality or gender inequality, saying it simply doesn't exist. You ignore any bad news and try to paint it as good. You're the kind of person who looks back fondly at slavery, and says, "Y'know, those people were lucky they had a roof over their heads! They should be THANKING us - dammit, they should be paying US back rent!" You mock and insult anyone who suggests that there may be any problem at all, and you complain about everything those "nasty libruls" say, while (in typical Republican fashion) offering nothing whatsoever by way of any kind of solution.

And when you're called on your constant hypocrisy, you whine and pewl about how you're not being treated fairly.



Mike's Standard Response #3.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 4:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
RECOGNIZING is different than REVELING.
We bitch about Bush's (Cheney's really) actions & you call foul. We bitch about Obama's inactions & you call foul.



If it was just bitching, that'd be okay. But it's not. It an unceasing, grinding, one-sided attack in every post; picking out every possible bad thing and spinning it in the worst way imaginable, while ignoring any good that happens (or denying that any good ever happens).

I really can't see why someone would want to post nothing but an unremitting litany of woe, with no relief at all. Seems like they must either enjoy it on some level, or they don't enjoy anything and want to bring everyone else down to their level.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 5:01 AM

BYTEMITE


Chris: I'm a twenty-something punk.

I just don't like punk MUSIC. Too mainstream.

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 5:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And your theme, Geez?

That no matter what America does, we're right, everyone else is wrong, end of story. You rejoice in every problem that America might create for others, and insist that we're just invading them to "show them the light of truth". You utterly ignore any racial inequality or gender inequality, saying it simply doesn't exist. You ignore any bad news and try to paint it as good. You're the kind of person who looks back fondly at slavery, and says, "Y'know, those people were lucky they had a roof over their heads! They should be THANKING us - dammit, they should be paying US back rent!" You mock and insult anyone who suggests that there may be any problem at all, and you complain about everything those "nasty libruls" say, while (in typical Republican fashion) offering nothing whatsoever by way of any kind of solution.

And when you're called on your constant hypocrisy, you whine and pewl about how you're not being treated fairly.



Mike's Standard Response #3.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Geezer's Standard Response # 1:




By the way, I *do* find it telling that you only have problems with progressives. You never seem to have any issues with the "doom and gloom" posted by hard-right nutjobs like PN and Wulfie. That says a lot about where your head's at.



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 6:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


ETA: I erased the excessively personal and snarky comment to Geezer, which had all the finesse and topicality of a Wulf post.

Geezer, I see serious problems underlying our nation which will affect us for decades to come. I don't particularly enjoy thinking about them, OTOH I don't hold my comfort so sacrosanct that I refuse to think about them either. Also, I agree with Kwicko: you're markedly one-sided about which concerns YOU complain about. It's not "complaining" that bothers you, it's only concerns from the left end of the spectrum. Trying to protray yourself as a neutral party is ludicrous, because everyone (except you perhaps) knows where you stand. (And if you really think of yourself that way, might want to do some more thinking!)

I'll detail what I see in my response to Pizmo when I have more time.

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 6:46 AM

BYTEMITE


PN is hard right? Granted, the religiousness and the anti-homosexuality, but politically I thought he was kind of an equal opportunity attacker. He appears to hate Ah-nold, Larry Craig, and any corrupt Republicans caught in affairs or sexting teens as much as he hates anyone on the left.

Wulf... I guess he's hard right in that he's libertarian and a bit of a nationalist, though he's not classic hard right.

To be hard right in America, I thought you had to support everything the Republican party does and all their platforms/messages. DT told me you had a few of those in the past, but that they mostly went away after Obama was elected.

Guess you would all know better than I would if Geezer is hard right, but I don't think not responding to PN or Wulf is necessarily agreement with them. >_>

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 6:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


PN is a typical LaRouche, as are many of the "tea-baggers". (That name suggests.... eewwww.) Anyway, the characterizations of "left" and "right" don't mean anything (altho I think "authoritarian" and "non-authoritarian" is a solid categorization.)

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 6:49 AM

WHODIED


GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME
--justifiably reducing increments of liberty?

--WhoDied


_______________________

Yeah, we're mostly just giving each other significant glances and laughing incessantly.



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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 6:52 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


What is the language in the Declaration of Independence? Something about the people putting up with a long string of abuses and usurpations, tolerating what already is, rather than rebelling against it? ( Or am I confusing that with Hamlet? --'s early in the AM and I haven't got my reference material handy--) So things are bad-- they were bad in 1776-- they gotta get *R*E*A*L*L*Y* bad, and stay that way, for a long time, before more than the tiniest minority of whackos will do anything. The Revolution came after years of abuse. The Vietnam War Resistance took years to develop. The Civil Rights movement took decades.

IN the Great Depression, with millions of people out of work, and a Dust Bowl, and the economy at a complete standstill, people living in shantytowns, lots of hungry folks, the situation never got worse than some rioting and some marches and demonstrations. And that took years to happen. The Ruling Class saw it, and got scared of what might happen next. *W*H*A*T* *M*I*G*H*T* *H*A*P*P*E*N*. SO they made some changes, and things got some better.

Things aren't that bad in America in 2010. It'll take millions of folks in the streets, nation-wide, attacking the Institutions, for a *L*O*N*G* time, before there's a real threat, or fundamental change.

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 7:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And yet - it took comparatively little to bring over a half-billion of well-off Europeans, better-off-than-they-were Chinese, and badly-off S. Americans into the streets to protest Bush's Iraq War. Perhaps you can refresh your memory regarding the SCALE of global protests.

So, compared to others, yes, USers are broken. No matter how they are kicked around, they lie down and take it. That it's been going on, on and off, for decades doesn't change that fact.

I think it has to do with being so heavily propagandized. The US is the best. The US has the highest standard of living. The US is all about freedom and free markets. Capitalism is the only natural system there is. Profits for a few will eventually benefit everyone, somehow, at some point. And most importantly TRUST WHAT WE ARE SAYING, FOR IT IS TRUE.

It comes down to the destructive effects of a system that needs to manipulate faith. And it needs to manipulate faith because the reality tells otherwise.


***************************************************************

As for the difference between the Vietnam War protests, the Civil Rights movement, the Women's Rights movement, the environmental movement and pretty much any time since then: there was a generation that really took up Kennedy's message of hope, and King's message of change. But we're old now, and tired. And perhaps the economic boom of the 50's (despite 90% tax on the highest income brackets) made it possible. People didn't spend all their time worried about making ends meet. And there hasn't anyone since then to inspire then next generations, or an economy to make hope possible.

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 7:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Rue, well said. I think the issue here is that America has this illusion that we're actually all these rebels, we've given the revolutionary war into some kind of legendary status. Americans believe their own myths about their rebellious nature, which makes them feel better about doing nothing.

The myths even encourage Americans to accept the government the way it is. All the love for the Founding Fathers and the Constitution I see as such. The Bill of Rights is what people should really praise, and that we stole from the Brits.

We're not broken, but I think we don't realize we're not as tough as we think we are, in fact we're even a bit complacent, not rebellious. A dangerous liability for anyone trying to bring about any real change.

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:15 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Things aren't that bad in America in 2010. It'll take millions of folks in the streets, nation-wide, attacking the Institutions, for a *L*O*N*G* time, before there's a real threat, or fundamental change."

You are forgetting history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_heard_round_the_world


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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Perhaps the "political genius" of the Bush-Cheney regime was in their full realization that Americans were so broken that the regime could get away with damn near anything. And the more people did nothing about the boot slamming on their faces, the weaker people became....
I'd replace "broken" with "easy to manipulate through fear and intimidation". But yes, I think we're "damaged", for many of the reasons expressed here. But I wouldn't say "broken", I think we've got a lot left in us yet.

And I AM sad that the belief our voices could change things or assist change seems to have been lost since my generation. It's often said that America lost its innocense when Kennedy died. Maybe so, but whether that's a good or bad thing is up for debate. One thing that DID happen was we started fighting back, however useless it may have been. Doesn't seem like THINKING PEOPLE fight back anymore, just those who swallow bullshit whole cloth as a target for their anger and frustration about other things.

I also think we were "bottomed out" just as much in other times as now, and add to all of what's being discussed that in general, most peopl concentrate on their own lives and struggles, less on the distant government and the ability of same to affect those lives. May seem "complacent", "broken" or "disaffected", but it's as much survival and focus on what's immediately pertinent to their lives. IMHO.




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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
PN is hard right? Granted, the religiousness and the anti-homosexuality, but politically I thought he was kind of an equal opportunity attacker. He appears to hate Ah-nold, Larry Craig, and any corrupt Republicans caught in affairs or sexting teens as much as he hates anyone on the left.



Actually, Byte, that doesn't quite hold water. PN is a classic John Bircher, one of those hardcore radical mighty-whitey-righties who think Reagan was a pussified liberal, and Bush (both) and McCain are even worse.

And I can't recall him EVER having an unkind word to say about corrupt right-wing politicos like John Ensign and Mark Sanford. I guess as long as you're a member of a secret society like "The Family" (how Mafia does THAT sound?), you can do no wrong in PN's book.

Quote:


Wulf... I guess he's hard right in that he's libertarian and a bit of a nationalist, though he's not classic hard right.



I'll wager you that 90% of the "libertarians" around here were full-on Bush supporters less than five years ago. It's a bit telling Wulfie claims to have "not been paying attention" until Obama was elected. If you could sit through eight years of Bush and NOT have a sense of outrage, you're no libertarian. As Frem has pointed out, peel up the corner of that Gadsden Flag decal on Wulf's car, and you'll see where he either scraped off his "W" sticker, or covered it up. :)

I doubt Geezer even bothered to cover his. He still wears that shit proudly.

Quote:


To be hard right in America, I thought you had to support everything the Republican party does and all their platforms/messages. DT told me you had a few of those in the past, but that they mostly went away after Obama was elected.



Believe it or not, there are those who are HARDER right than the GOP, just as there are those who are harder LEFT than the Democrats.

Quote:

Guess you would all know better than I would if Geezer is hard right, but I don't think not responding to PN or Wulf is necessarily agreement with them.


I'd say that a PATTERN of responding ONLY to those who argue against someone like Wulf, and NEVER arguing against any of Wulfie's lunacy, tends to show a pretty clear agreement with him.

Heck, I can't even recall ol' Geezer getting upset when Wulfie said we should let a .308 bullet decide if Obama is really President or not. I guess he didn't mind that particular doom-n-gloom scenario...

'Course, for all his whining on about everybody else, I also notice that Geezer never seems to offer anything in the way of solutions, either - unless you consider walking around like an idiotic deaf parrot and crowing "Free markets! Free markets!" a SOLUTION.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Pizmo, appreciated, and you might have noticed me having nothing to say whatever on the other matter for quite some time now.

As for reaction and backlash, protest and the like, that comes of a couple things, not the least of which is how our own so-called protectors will attack any protest that seems any kind of threat, escalating matters to some insane degrees, I mean look at the history, Patton and MacArthur made their bones by beating down pissed off veterans in the bonus march, COINTELPRO and what happene to MOVE, the list goes on and on...

Part of it is that peaceful protest accomplishes nothing, look at the largish one following the feds setting up and shooting that imam up here, NOT ONE WORD, NOT ONE PHOTO, in any paper, even the local ones, like it never existed - Siggy's right about needing media control to even be relevant, but the other end of it is that if you are peaceful, you lack the one thing that makes a protest effective - the threat of violence.

That's been the primary REASON to show up with pitchforks and torches ever since "protests" were actually peasant revolts - you were showing up to MAKE DEMANDS, not beg favors, and displaying in no uncertain way what was gonna happen if those demands were not met.

Still, in this day and age, gathering in one place for easy kettling and sabotage, with clear intent to be nice little well behaved peons buys you nothin but the chance to be ignored, arrested, harrassed and made fools of, there's other, more effective ways to dump sand in the gears of the machine, a million tiny means of unprovable sabotage, "accidental" incompetence, leaking stuff to the internet, and as such the fifth/sixth column is a far more viable tactic then handing the powers that be a free shot at kicking your ass, it might make would-be martyrs feel good, but it accomplishes about dick.

Do you really think I stop at just helping folks find their own humanity, when they're next question is usually something along the lines of "so what can *I* do ?"

I'll note that when explicitly asked that, I will give a realistic answer with suggestions on immediate effect.

-F

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