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Moderate Republican slams own party on the debt ceiling

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Saturday, July 16, 2011 05:58
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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 5:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kiki:
Quote:

business pursues its agenda without kickback by being secretive
So does government, eh wot?

DT:
Quote:

my cure idea vs. your cure idea
Yup. Who says medicine (and science, and just about everything else) isn't a bureaucracy? Not to mention a competition for the bucks....

Sig, that's interesting. The Chamber, of all people/interests, surprises me. I read yesterday where they're thinking of letting the Senate go first, since it's all so contentious in the House and no deal may be possible. Between the Chamber and other things I've seen/heard, it just underscores my belief that the road block isn't the Republicans, it's the Tea Party neophites. Which doesn't help anyone reach a solution, because THEY don't want a solution.
Quote:

The achievers already pay for more than their fair share
Sure, on paper they do. But we all know with the tax loopholes, gimmes and subsidies, not even CLOSE. "Achievers" my ass.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 7:49 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Reprinted with express permission.
Quote:

THE ELEVENTH MARBLE

by Michael Rivero

Any five-year old child knows that if you put ten marbles into a tin can, you can only take ten marbles back out. No amount of wishful thinking, dreaming, or praying, will yield that eleventh marble from inside that can. That eleventh marble does not exist. It never did, and it never will. All discussions about the eleventh marble are the product of imagination. The eleventh marble is a fantasy.

Private central bankers issuing the public currency as interest-bearing loans operate on the belief that they can put ten marbles (dollars) into a tin can (the world) and magically get 11 marbles back out. Thus, we may conclude that the the bankers are dumber than five-year old children! But unlike five-year old children, the bankers will take your home, your business, and your nation when they don't get that eleventh marble! The spoiled child may cry and throw a tantrum, but that will be the end of their upset. The spoiled banker, however, in his or her arrogant rage that they cannot have the eleventh marble their imagination says must still be in that tin can, may start a war before they will admit that eleventh marble was never really there.

Economies are like tin cans. Before you can take a marble out, you must have put a marble in. Nobody can give you a marble that does not exist, yet this simple reality is lost to the priests of that fantastic religion called banking in that unholiest of temples called the IMF. Their religious doctrine seems to be that there must always be an eleventh marble inside the tin can, and that the tin can unfairly withholds that eleventh marble, indeed cheats them of their right to the eleventh marble, purely out of spite. That faith in the existence of the eleventh marble, unseen and improvable, is the article of faith the religion of banking rests on. It is far easier to burn the heretics than to question the dogma.

Today we see the bankers, having already retrieved their ten marbles from the tin can, flogging the world for that missing eleventh marble. Greece does not have that eleventh marble, so they turn to Germany and ask, "Do you have an eleventh marble", and Germany replies, "Sorry, but the bankers already took the ten marbles they put in our tin can, and we are searching for an eleventh marble ourselves. Try the Americans." The Americans, of course, have only just surrendered the last of their ten marbles back to the bankers and are looking under seat cushions for that missing eleventh marble nobody seems able to find.

But the eleventh marble will never be found. After all that mayhem brought down on the tin can there still will be no eleventh marble. It does not exist. It never did, and it never will.

The problem with all modern reserve banking systems is that the moment the first bank note goes into circulation as the proceed of a loan at interest, more money is owed to the banks than actually exists. Ten marbles have been put into the tin can, but the bankers see 11 marbles owed back to them. Sooner or later the non-existence of that eleventh marble will create a crises of faith. People will stop believing in the religion called private central banking, and that crisis of faith will bring the system crashing down, as did the Temple of Baal in ancient times when the Syrians saw through the priests' trickery. This evil magic of creating money out of debt was a fraud all along, as fraudulent and silly as the idea that one can put ten marbles into a tin can, and take out eleven.

In ages to come economists will look back at this failed experiment in debt-based currency, and dump it into the same category of human folly as Tulip mania, The Nation of Poyais, Credit Mobilier, the Great South Seas Company, and Mortgage-Backed Securities.


Same basic principle as the "Eleventh Round" story, same obvious lesson.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 7:58 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

The achievers already pay for more than their fair share.
What is "fair?



First, it shouldn't have a damn thing to do with 'fair'. It should be about raising revenue so that the govt can perform its proper functions, and not play big daddy santa to all the special interest and targeted voting groups.

Second, *the top-earning 5 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $159,619), however, still paid far more than the bottom 95 percent. The top 5 percent earned 34.7 percent of the nation's adjusted gross income, but paid approximately 58.7 percent of federal individual income taxes.

What's fair ? Having 'skin in the game', after all, is what Obama preaches, isn't it? Well, if over 1/2 of tax payers have none, what's fair about that ?




* http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 8:15 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Just as an FYI- over 100 business interests, including the USA Chamber of Commerce, sent a letter to McConnell urging a debt ceiling deal.



Of course they did, where do figure that 1.7 trillion in unnecessary spending goes?

There is nothing the corporatists fear worse than a balanced budget. Hell, they'd rather have fiscally irresponsibke socialism than responsible democracy, and have supported just that many times over the last century.

Check out your corporate enemies and see just how many of them get most of their money from the govt. in either spending, mandates or free resources (hell, not only do the oil companies get to take the oil for free, unlike in the rest of the world, we actually *pay* them to take it, we "reimburse them for their loss" its frickin absurd.)


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 8:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Yay Frem. Nice find.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:05 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yay Frem. Nice find.



Yes, welcome to this right side of the fence ;)

Of course, they might have just stolen the marble from someone else, but I suspect they invented it. A sleight of hand makes us believe in the marble.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, <> scary. And all too true, which makes it even scarier!

Just 'cuz: you know damned well that the figures you posted have nothing to do with reality, Raptor, you just love quoting them because they sound good. With all the things that offset taxes for the rich, they don't pay nearly what they supposedly do "on the books". You'll keep quoting that shit until the day you die, and we'll keep correcting you with the truth and calling you a
Quote:

There is nothing the corporatists fear worse than a balanced budget. Hell, they'd rather have fiscally irresponsibke socialism than responsible democracy
Yup.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

I read yesterday where they're thinking of letting the Senate go first, since it's all so contentious in the House and no deal may be possible.



Which is all just pure posturing and refusing to take the difficult steps and the hard choices, and instead handing them off to someone else, so that when THEY do it, those chickenshits who passed it on and handed it off to someone else like a hot potato, can turn around and try to run on it themselves.

The GOP wants the Senate to go first because the Senate is controlled by Democrats. So if the Dems go first, the Rethugs will then vote it down, then turn around and campaign on it, saying "Look at what they tried to do! They tried to raise the debt ceiling!"

Of course, they completely overlook and conveniently forget to mention that they economic savior, Paul Ryan, proposed a budget that would add more than SIX TRILLION DOLLARS to the debt over the next decade - which would, of course, require raising the debt ceiling. And virtually all of the GOP House members voted in favor of that proposal (I believe FOUR of them didn't vote for it, if memory serves).

So they're going to raise the limit, and they know it, and they're just trying to play chicken with it while simultaneously trying to get ANYONE else to take responsibility for doing the job they know they aren't fit to do, and while they are trying desperately to at all costs AVOID doing it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

* http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html





I don't accept your numbers, because I don't accept your source as a reliable source.

Quote:

From Wiki:

Tax Foundation states that their research is guided by the principles of simplicity, transparency, neutrality, stability, no retroactivity, broad bases and low rates, which they describe as sound tax policy.

Tax Foundation research is generally critical of tax increases, high business taxes, so-called "sin" taxes, tax preferences for the housing industry, and use of the tax code for "picking winners and losers". However, they are against reducing $47 billion in tax credits for the oil industry, and against taxes on growing fossil-fuel carbon emissions. They have spoken favorably of efforts to balance the federal budget with tax reform and significant spending cuts, such as the Bowles-Simpson plan, the Ryan Plan, and the Wyden-Coats plan.




Overall, the top 5% pay around 16% of their income in all taxes (sales, property, income, Social Security, etc.), whereas the middle class pays on average around 35% or more.

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


First, it shouldn't have a damn thing to do with 'fair'.



Then why do you keep insisting that the rich pay far more than their fair share?

If it has nothing to do with "fair", why do YOU keep bringing that up?

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Just as an FYI- over 100 business interests, including the USA Chamber of Commerce, sent a letter to McConnell urging a debt ceiling deal.



Of course they did, where do figure that 1.7 trillion in unnecessary spending goes?

There is nothing the corporatists fear worse than a balanced budget. Hell, they'd rather have fiscally irresponsibke socialism than responsible democracy, and have supported just that many times over the last century.

Check out your corporate enemies and see just how many of them get most of their money from the govt. in either spending, mandates or free resources (hell, not only do the oil companies get to take the oil for free, unlike in the rest of the world, we actually *pay* them to take it, we "reimburse them for their loss" its frickin absurd.)


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.




Well, we also give them a nice tax rebate for selling it on the open world market at the spot price, all while we claim we want "American oil" drilled here at home, "for Americans" - all while knowing full well that there is no such thing given the markets and the way they work.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:43 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


[Not directed at Niki or anyone in particular - I just hit "Reply" on the closest post at hand that wasn't my own]

Again, even a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution does NOTHING about paying down the debt. Ever.

You want to REALLY balance the budget and take care of the debt? Suck it up and admit that you're going to need to take in a good solid 10% more in revenue than you dole out in spending, and you're going to need to do that for more than ten years, and that 10% MUST, BY LAW, be used for NOTHING but paying down the debt.

Until you're willing to face that fact and admit it, anything else is just so much pure bullshit, and shows that you aren't serious about a goddamned thing, but are just lashing out at the current occupant of the White House because of who he is and what party he belongs to.

When Bush sent out $600 checks to people to get them to "go shopping" to support the war, I contacted the IRS to see if I could sign mine over to help pay down the debt. I was told that no, I could not do that, but if I didn't want the money, the check would expire in a year if I didn't cash it, and they'd use it for something else. But it would not be used to pay off our debts.

I was willing then, when the "opposition party" was occupying our government. Apparently I was all alone in that position.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, July 15, 2011 1:32 AM

DREAMTROVE


They get to create their own consumer in the auto industry, and if they go bust, we bail them out. Now we've repealed all environmental regulations from them, and given them a green light to kill us all. Oh, and we've also appointed them in charge of all our environmental regulatory agencies, so they can block any competition.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, July 15, 2011 1:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
They get to create their own consumer in the auto industry, and if they go bust, we bail them out. Now we've repealed all environmental regulations from them, and given them a green light to kill us all. Oh, and we've also appointed them in charge of all our environmental regulatory agencies, so they can block any competition.




We also let them regulate themselves in the pharmaceutical industry and the financial industry.

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/13/137789065/why-prosecutors-dont-go-after-
wall-street




"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, July 15, 2011 7:29 AM

BYTEMITE


Okay, I think I'm starting to understand. I have never been against paying down the debt, my response to Sig was me not being aware that this was the argument.

I would like to propose that if everyone agrees to a surplus being used to pay down a debt, then it no longer is technically a surplus, and has been budgeted towards a long term goal. As an investment, or maybe a precaution.

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Friday, July 15, 2011 10:00 AM

DREAMTROVE


While I'm on this thread, I did want to nitpick, I wasn't going to get into an argument about it, but it is possible to lower the deficit without raising taxes. The govt. takes in $2 trillion in revenue and does not provide $2 trillion in essential services. Also, take into consideration the impact taxes have on the economy.

If 75% of the price of any goods bought in America is tax in one form or another, then reducing taxes on industries that manufacture things in the US would lower the cost and boost the economy. A stronger economy would have more people working. Right now, fewer than half of Americans are employed, and about half of those that are, are part time. There's a lot of room for increases in the economy without even increasing worker productivity through automation, training, better organization, etc.

Another thing you could do would be redistribute existing taxes, like raising the 100k cap on FICA, which would effectively actually lower the tax rate. But it's not just across incomes or populations, but across activities. Import tariffs, for example. You could be taxing the sale of Chinese goods, instead of American ones.

The problem isn't that 14 trillion is something that the US govt. could never ever pay back, it's the lack of will. A lot of that debt could be negotiated away.

Also, can we mention that just like Bush started the extra-budgetary war supplementals (which still go on) we now have an extrabudgetary debt? The US govt. has, as of this year, admitted to holding $5 trillion in national debt as a result of the official acceptance the mortgage backed bond debt just about exactly two years ago. That total debt is estimated at $8 trillion, but even if the govt. is only accepting $5 trillion of it, they have officially accepted it as part of the debt. Given that, why are we still calling it $14.3 trillion when it is now officially $19+ trillion?

Still, all but around $5 trillion of it could be negotiated. We have basically four types of debt, each of about equal size:

Bond debt. Money we actually owe to foreign countries and american bond holders who bought US treasuries. We probably have to pay this, or pay the piper.

Mortgage debt. It was dumb to accept this, and we should rethink that decision. It's not our responsibility.

Federal Reserve debt. Why we owe the banks money for giving us the right to print money is beyond me. It seems this concept could be dealt with legislatively, or by executive order. If that fails, nationalize the banks.

Internal govt. debt. This is IOUs, like when someone robs the social security trust fund. This money flew away and it's never coming back, let's just admit that, and lower the debt accordingly.


Mike,

You have hit the problem with regulation for some reason almost no one gets:

Any regulatory agency is going to be filled with govt'l appointments. Even a presidental campaign is only around 25 million, senate and house campaign much less, to say nothing governors or assemblymen. Politicians come cheap. You can buy your way into those appointments pretty easy if you're a multi-billion dollar corporation.

Now, consider the cost of unfriendly regulation. Could be your entire industry. Could easily be billions of dollars. Much cheaper to buy the politicians and regulate yourself.

One mistake this country made in the early 20th c. They decided to regulate the railroads. The reasons for this were not quite clear, there were a bunch of interest, oil, car companies, etc, at any rate, were able to regulate the railroads out of existance. Now everyone has learned that lesson, so every time you create a regulatory agency, this is what happens.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I have some spare time, so going through this thread...
Quote:

If it has nothing to do with "fair", why do YOU keep bringing that up?
And I bet Rappy never answers this question. But I challenge you, Mr Rapster... feel free to pick your way through the minefield of your own fractured mentation and come up with an answer. I dare ya. I double-dog dare ya!

-----------------
I predict (once again) that when Rappy is faced point-blank with his own schizoid thinking, he will quietly slink away from this thread.

And let me point out (once again) what Rappy REALLY thinks of Social Security and Medicare... ie "the old, the sick". Just read his quote (above)

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