U.S. Marines urinate on Taliban corpses (not PN) by oldenglanddry

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Why confine deaths to just al Qaeda ? Why not include ALL radical Islamic extremists, around the world, to make it a legitimate question ?

Sure, let's. (OTOH does that mean I need to include Britain or NATO on "our" side?) But instead of a presupposing an answer, let's try to to find out the real answer, OK?

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Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:26 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Why confine deaths to just al Qaeda ? Why not include ALL radical Islamic extremists, around the world, to make it a legitimate question ?
Sure, let's. (OTOH does that mean I need to include Britain or NATO on "our" side?) But instead of a presupposing an answer, let's try to to find out the real answer, OK?

Add anyone you want, but there's none who do this in the name of Jesus, as is the case w/ the Muslims, and their lust for blood for their god.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Saturday, January 14, 2012 4:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Who the frak cares WHY we kill? If it isn't self defense, if it's optional, I don't care what color lipstick you put on it.

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Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Why confine deaths to just al Qaeda ? Why not include ALL radical Islamic extremists, around the world, to make it a legitimate question ?
Sure, let's. (OTOH does that mean I need to include Britain or NATO on "our" side?) But instead of a presupposing an answer, let's try to to find out the real answer, OK?

Add anyone you want, but there's none who do this in the name of Jesus, as is the case w/ the Muslims, and their lust for blood for their god.

There is nothing more inherently violent in Islam than Christianity. Both the Qu'ran and the Bible contain contradictions around war and peace and love, the Bible more so because of the diversity of source. Both have blood lust and peace in them, both condemn unbelievers.

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Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:23 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

As I understand it, the modern rules of war derive from some version of chivalry. But chivalry itself was a conspiracy of the nobility and ruffians to stop squabbling among themselves and to peaceably divide up the goods produced by the serfs without excessive damage caused by fighting. There was otherwise no general agreement that women, children, or 'civilians' should be spared.

And targeting civilians was a tactic used by both the North and the South in the Civil War. And the Revolutionary war. And the French and Indian war. And any border skirmish where crops are burned, trees and chopped down, villages are set fire to, slaves and captives are taken, children are mutilated, neighbors are macheted to death, or any of the other horrors of war.

I feel confident in saying that when you engage in war, you foster inhumanity.

Granted, there is a case to be made for troop discipline. But I don't know that they have found that balance - between having a fighting force where the vast majority can't fire at another human being and won't engage in atrocities; and having a force where the vast majority will kill and then unpleasant things happen.

And it sure seems to be it's ALL sides that fall into this. Simply claiming you're better even when you do the same things is a just an act of self-deception, IMO.

(Knights and chivalry: Originally bands of roving thugs would ravage the countryside, their only rule was - remember, rape, pillage and THEN burn! The nobility found that they could more or less avoid the worst damage to their holdings - including serfs - by paying 'protection money' to the thugs. And the thugs, mostly interested in self-preservation, realized it was far far better to prey on no one and get paid, than to engage the peasants and maybe get hurt and pay yourself in spoils. Hence, the rules of 'chivalry' were born - don't hurt the women and children and you'll get paid to be a knight.)

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Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:47 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
By YOUR logic, the NAZIS were saving the Jews, not slaughtering them.
Who killed more peeps? Us or al Qaida?

Why confine deaths to just al Qaeda ? Why not include ALL radical Islamic extremists, around the world, to make it a legitimate question ?

The answer ? Islam, no question.

Why confine the question to just "us", then? Why not include ALL non-Muslims, to make it a legitimate question?

Do you see what you're doing here?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 3:54 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Do you see what you're doing here?

I see YOU ignoring the point, and then twisting it completely into a pretzel, and then trying to equate your version to anything I said.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 6:48 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What IS your point, rappy? That we have to ignore all of the facts that YOU want us to ignore in order to see your point? Why should we do that? Why should we exit the real world and enter rappy-world?

Look, I realize that you think you are warning us against some great danger. You are pointing to it and saying LOOK! It's there! RIGHT THERE! Don't you see it??? and you think that we are trivializing your view, that we look over casually from our party, drinks in-hand, and say Oh yeah, we see. Not much to worry about and go back to our conversations and our food and our music, drinks or joints still in-hand, oblivious to the dangers around us. That is not the truth. We SEE the danger. We're just not in a panic about it. And 9-11 was NOT a shock to my system. After the Cole and the Embassy bombings... yanno, there was nothing separating us from that except 3000 miles of water and a very porous border. I lived five years wondering when the other shoe would drop. I KNEW it was coming, son; I just didn't know when exactly where. My utter sang-froid about the whole thing which pissed off a bunch of people on another board, and the fact that predicted (in a bass-akwards way) the anthrax letters... got some people on that board to very publicly asked the moderator to pass my private information on to the authorities (thankfully, a friend notified me by email, it was a very complex board and the request was posted in an area I didn't frequent) which got me followed by the FBI. So I am well aware of the dangers from ALL sides, as I think most of us are.

Calm down. Panic allowed all of us to be stampeded into some VERY unwise and VERY costly actions... actions which may very well cause the downfall of the USA. Panic is never a good thing.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:11 AM

America loves a winner!

Sig,

On this matter, 'Rappy world = the REAL world '. I'm speaking of real world events, even if they're NOT appearing on the nightly news, or if they are, get a brief mention, then it's off to Brittany, with tonight's Action weather update...

I'm afraid your life experiences and getting attention from the FBI, while interesting, aren't really registering w/ me too much. Not trying to dismiss it, but how's it relate to school girls in the Philippines having their heads removed, in the name of Allah ? Help me out on that one, if you can.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:11 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Looks like this went on to become the usual "Rap's idiotic statements vs. everyone else", so I'm not going to bother reading beyond

Quote:
I think it goes to the double-think we have about war. We train these kids to be brutal, strip all normal human squeamishness and restraint from 'em so they can go kill total strangers on some near-stranger's say-so, and then expect them to pull back from behaving barbarically in their free time.

and

Quote:
Niki I do find this act horrific, but I guess I have this view that war is barbaric and the people who conduct it have been trained to dehumanise other people. Horrible, but not surprising. You take a load of underpriveledged youngsters, train them the kill, dump them down in a foreign country of which they have not one whit of understanding and you get shit like this happening.

Both represent my view of the military; they break people down specifically to "build them up again" as the tools they want them to be, nothing more. When that is done, things like this (and worse) are only to be expected. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't be decried loudly with disgust when they come to light.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:42 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Sig, On this matter, 'Rappy world = the REAL world '. I'm speaking of real world events, even if they're NOT appearing on the nightly news, or if they are, get a brief mention, then it's off to Brittany, with tonight's Action weather update...

I'm speaking of "real world" events too. I just don't narrow my focus on the suspicious spot on my forearm when my arteries are life-threateningly clogged.

Quote:
I'm afraid your life experiences and getting attention from the FBI, while interesting, aren't really registering w/ me too much.

I was trying to make a point: I KNOW what's going on I know well enough to register with the FBI (low bar though that may be). I've been there and done that; collected the data, thought the thoughts, made my predictions, and assessed the threat. YOU ARE NOT TELLING ME, OR MOST OTHER PEOPLE, ANYTHING ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT.

I understand that Islam has a militant wing. Yanno what? SO DO WE. And we spend a shitload more on weapons and invasions than all of the rest of the world COMBINED. I also understand that we are no longer the only world's industrial power; that we are losing the world narrative; that we are losing whatever hearts and minds we might have had in earlier times. That our military, which is causing us to spend ourselves into oblivion, is an ineffective tool for gathering support and allies. MAYBE that's because we have such a world-class history of killing, establishing tyrannies, and looting natural resources wherever we went... from the Monarchy of Saudi Arabia and the Shah of Iran to most of South and Central America. YOU may want to forget the rest of history, but the rest of the world won't.

We have earned ourselves a boatload of blowback... a fancy term for vengeance... trying to impose "our way of life" (and believe me, there are damn few countries better off after our interventions than before) and although we can fight one or two enemies at a time we cannot fight the entire world at once, especially not a world that has developed to be our economic and productive equals. We are bankrupting ourselves trying.

So, here's the deal, as I see it: We can't impose our will on the whole world, and trying to do so is only bankrupting us and creating a lot of enemies. What we need to do is STOP intervening militarily any place we don't have an real existential interest... stop occupying places like Germany, Japan, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Sudan. Pull our troops and our drones and our interrogators back slowly.

What we DO have is an interest in stability and development. So invest instead in development. NO - I don't mean the kind of development where we give money to South Korea so that they can buy from Purdue Chicken, but real open-handed development... the kind of aid we poured into Germany and Japan after WWII. The kind NOT intended to extract money from the "donee".

BTW- our military probably uses 30% of our available oil (ie both domestic and imported). We could lose access to Mideast oil tomorrow, and not feel it, if the military pulled back from most of its 800 installations around the world. Right now, the only thing that the military is protecting is ITS access to oil.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:50 AM

America loves a winner!

Here it goes... we spend so much more $ on defense than anyone else, ergo, WE are the ones to be feared, WE are the ones who are causing this, WE are the ones blah blah blah....

It's a false, baseless rationale and propaganda that the enemies of not just the US but of Western civilization use to justify their blowing up of buses, rail stations, pizza parlors, weddings, or the cutting of heads of little girls, men, women, etc... I'm so god damn sick of this mindless " if WE weren't the bullies, they'd not fear us " crap.

And that's exactly what it is .. CRAP.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:52 AM

America loves a winner!

Niki -

If you're going to ignore me, then ignore me.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:01 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

SignyM

I get your post - but the most telling thing to me a WAY back when was when little Rappy admitted he didn't even READ the posts - just the title.

I'm guessing not only does he x-out facts for his little dopamine kick like any true believer (yep, they're all crap according to him!), but he has an attention span smaller than a gnat's.

As time goes on I agree more and more with Niki - he's pretty much a troll. The more he can provoke people into replying, the more powerful and important he feels. After all, negative attention is better than being treated like a completely ignorable nothing. So he ignores facts, posts unrelated arguments, makes outrageous claims JUST IN ORDER TO PROVOKE A RESPONSE. Don't play that game. He needs a time out.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:12 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
he's pretty much a troll. The more he can provoke people into replying, the more powerful and important he feels. After all, negative attention is better than being treated like a completely ignorable nothing.

Eh-YUP, Kiki. Just think khow many actual discussions we could have if so many didn't devolve into the consisent idiocy he brings about. He's said the same stupid thing over and over and over and OVER, yet people keep engaging him by trying to point out facts and argue with him. I see why so many leave here, pop back in and say "yup, same old, same old" and go away again.

If he were actually as stupid as he pretends to be, I would say to him

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:14 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Talking of "same old same old" :

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/58/

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:15 AM

America loves a winner!

1kiki

Yeah, I never said that, but nice try.

I might have admitted to not reading a particular LINK to a story, and merely commented on the subject line, as posted, but that's a far cry from saying I "NEVER" read the posts, just the title.

And I'm NOT sorry if you can't handle reality. It's really more of an YOU issue, than a me problem.

If I had a nickle for every time someone here said they were going to ignore me, or stop responding to my posts.... I'd have more than enough $ to buy a grande at Starbucks!

And even though I don't DRINK coffee, or frequent Starbucks, that's still a lot of nickles !

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:22 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

He's said the same stupid thing over and over and over and OVER,

And you DON'T ??

But if you really WOULD start ignoring me....oh, never mind.

Quote:
yet people keep engaging him by trying to point out facts and argue with him. I see why so many leave here, pop back in and say "yup, same old, same old" and go away again.

Actually, they don't point out facts. They point out OPINIONS, and FALSE dichotomies, and then present them as " fact " .

Were FACTS ever involved, then we could have a mature, rational discussion, and maybe agree to certain things, like the Earth goes around the Sun, and rain causes wet streets. Seems many here, are so indoctrinated w/ their political views, they choose the exact opposite, simply to be contradictory.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:24 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

His point is right on; people recognize the situation, say they're going to ignore him, the get triggered into responding again before much time has passed. Shows how good he is at what he does, and how weak people are at not taking the bait.

I said a while back that I wasn't ignoring him anymore, I'm going to mock him and make my point when it comes up, yet notice his goad about ignoring him. So I say again; why does anyone bother? Why have the same useless arguments time and time agan when you know it'll go nowhere? Something about doing the same thing repeatedly while hoping for a different result.

I'LL go on doing the same thing repeatedly, just to remind you guys and in the hopes eventually enough people get sick of his game not to "bite". It's happened with some; hopefully it will happen with others. I can't help believing the Pavlovian response will EVENTUALLY wear thin. Or not. But just think what a waste of your time all those posts refuting the same things he says over and over have cost...just for a minute. You must get SOMETHING out of it to keep doing it...so what is it? Or are you just pawns for him to push around the board?

Onward to more interesting things...

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Here it goes... we spend so much more $ on defense than anyone else, ego [sic], WE are the ones to be feared, WE are the ones who are causing this, WE are the ones blah blah blah.... It's a false, baseless rationale and propaganda that the enemies of not just the US but of Western civilization use to justify their blowing up of buses, rail stations, pizza parlors, weddings, or the cutting of heads of little girls, men, women, etc... I'm so god damn sick of this mindless " if WE weren't the bullies, they'd not fear us " crap.

Here is my answer from the other thread, in case you miss it:

Quote:
The MILLIONS we've wiped off the Earth? What in the hell are you even talking about ?- rappy

Well, we can start with the 2.5 million in Vietnam and go from there. And I don't mean from starvation and disease and sanctions, I mean bullets, bombs and missiles fired by or provided by the USA, with "made in USA" all over them. This is a discussion I've already had with Geezer: I listed all of our interventions since 1900. It was an impressive list, and included the overthrow of democratically elected leaders and the installation of tyrants in every nation in Central and South America (except Costa Rica), Cuba, Haiti, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Phillippines, Indonesia, East Timor, etc. This wasn't always in the distant past either, but in my living memory and (if you are as old as some say you are) within yours too. And the list of dead was impressively long, and - yes- went up into the millions.

Yeah, I know your eyes probably glazed over and it all rolled off you like water off a duck's back, but this is ALSO real-world history, and while YOU may not care about what the USA has done in other countries, those other countries do. So if I "got ya" on that one, that only speaks to your ignorance of real-world events and your excessively narrow focus and lack of attention to what people around the world REALLY think of us; not the happy stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And that is why you will be surprised and shocked by events. -Signy

Now, show me how this is "baseless".

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:35 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
"Talking of "same old same old" :

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/58/"

As a general notion which I haven't thought deeply about yet, I think if you want a killer army, you'll end up with unhinged behavior as a side effect. I haven't heard of any fighting force, whether regular army or guerrilla, that was disciplined about what they did to whom. The NVA perhaps had a good reputation, but I haven't looked in to it.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:48 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Shows how good he is at what he does ..."

Oh, I personally just want to except SignyM and Kwicko. SignyM does post a LOT of interesting facts which I certainly learn from (though out of consideration for her it must take a lot of time), and Kwicko deftly ties little Rappy's illogic up into such neat, tight little knots. Funny as hell, to me anyway.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:52 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Shows how good he is at what he does, and how weak people are at not taking the bait.

At what I do ?

This is a message board. I'm giving my opinion and responding to other's , same as you. There's no 'bait' setting here, on my part, at least.

This really is strange, to say the least.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:56 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Whatever.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 4:53 PM

CHRISISALL

I find it somewhat odd that AU & HK make similar points on this thread, in essence, WTF do you expect??

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:28 PM

HERO

Everyone has strong opinions on this topic.

Unfortunately you are ALL ignoring the context.

Pissing on the corpses of the enemy...especially in front of a camera has a legitimate military purpose.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:32 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Whatever.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:44 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Pissing on the corpses of the enemy...especially in front of a camera has a legitimate military purpose.

Ummm, proving you have a dick, are a dick, have a big one, can fuck peeps up, have recently ingested liquids... all of the above?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:20 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think the Colonists learnt how to scalp from the people who were already there, sure they sort of took it on and thus it became popular for both sides, but they learnt it from the people who were already here, since I doubt they were studying the Visagoths in detail before they came over here. Its a disgusting practice either way, no matter who does it.

I don't see these peeing soldiers as victims, they are adults who chose to behave this way, there was probably peer pressure involved, but they made a choice to do it and they made a choice to film it. Its grotty and they should get some sort of punishment for doing it, not a DD but some discipline to let them know this isn't acceptable behavior.

Quicko, you would actually compare this with Charles Manson, that gives me doubts about your moral turpitude (spelling?). This was wrong, but murdering people and having your cult followers do it is wrong-er.

I do like watching Bomb Patrol Afghanistan, its really informative and gives an idea of how difficult it is over there. My dad has decided as a result of watching that that we need to just leave because there's no way to win against _that. No one has ever fully conquered those guys and no one ever will because it isn't a country really, its little tribedoms who do what they want.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 16, 2012 4:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ayep, but you try tellin folk that...
*shakes head*

You'd THINK we'd not make the same dumbass mistakes, learn something from history, but noooo..

-F

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Monday, January 16, 2012 5:28 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I find it somewhat odd that AU & HK make similar points on this thread, in essence, WTF do you expect??

The laughing Chrisisall

At least you can say I'm consistent ?

In a world of confusion and chaos, isn't it good to know that there are some things you can count on ?

As for HK, a quick scan shows 1 post in the thread. While I'd agree that soldiers, by their very nature, have to be trained to do some really , yes, horrific stuff, the alternative must be understood. Do it to them first, or they'll do it to you.

That may seems harsh, unfair, or inhuman, but it is what it is. Doesn't mean you have to like it, and in fact, it'd be preferred if you DON'T like it, but more importantly, it's something which needs to be understood. My 'guess', and that's all it is, is that these guys had some buddies get killed, or knew a civilian whose head was removed, by the Taliban, and in their minds, this was pay back or " justice ". I cannot say, other than it did break with code of conduct.

For that, I think we can all agree, and be thankful that such things ARE outside the bounds.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 7:00 AM