Sometimes ya just gotta step back and ask... by AURaptor

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No, we just insisted that the Vietnamese accept their colonial status. Because the powerful making money off of little people is OUR religion... that is the basis of nearly all of our invasions and interventions except WWII and a few others (Serbia/Kosovo). And of course "they" killed people. So did we. We kinda did carpet-bombed and napalmed and sprayed with Agent Orange (chemical warfare, it got our guys, too). So we killed pretty much en masse because we had the firepower to do it.

Yanno Rappy, I don't expect you to believe me. (You should know by now how I feel about "belief"!) I want you to challenge what I say, try to disprove my fact with other facts, look it up. Show me that we have not killed millions. Show me where we have materially improved the lives of ordinary people as a result of our military action... not "might-have-beens" or "what we intendeds" but real results. Because I have the feeling that when you go into a nation and you kill a lot of people, you had better assuage the survivors with something better, or they will hate you as long as they live and so will their children. I could be wrong, of course.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 9:54 AM

America loves a winner!

Sorry Sig, but your argument is weak. To compare US foreign policy of 50 year ago to what's going on TODAY, with the radical Islamic militants is intentional ignorance on your part, and a lame diversionary gimmick.

I frankly don't give a damn how worked up you are about Vietnam. It's irrelevant to the issues we're facing today.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:21 AM

America loves a winner!

And getting back to my original point... which would you rather have.

Church bells, once a week, signalling a call to mass ?

Or a call to prayer, 5 x's a day, every day ?

Given a free choice to ignore one, or a knife to the neck to submit and obey to the other, I'll take the former, thank you very much.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Sorry Sig, but your argument is weak. To compare US foreign policy of 50 year ago to what's going on TODAY, with the radical Islamic militants is intentional ignorance on your part, and a lame diversionary gimmick.

Oh my god, rappy, how plainly to I have to dissect this for you? WE use various kinds of feel-good rationalizations to kill, terrorize and maim. THEY use feel-good rationalizations to kill, terrorize, and maim. How are we and they different? If we do what they do, how does that win friends and support? If we continue to do what they do, how is that going to make us the good guys?

Quote:
I frankly don't give a damn how worked up you are about Vietnam. It's irrelevant to the issues we're facing today.

Then what about what we did in Iraq? IT WAS NOT AN ISLAMIC NATION. Nonetheless we killed hundreds of thousands of people. At our withdrawal, their electricity is still no better than under Saddam, their food supply is worse, and their dispersed sectarian violence is a direct replacement for Saddam's centralized terrorism. Tell me, how have we materially benefited the survivors of our invasion? Why should they love us or appreciate our killing of them? Oh, and by the way, we opened the door for radical jihadism in Iraq. too. Yipee ki yay!

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Church bells, once a week, signalling a call to mass ? Or a call to prayer, 5 x's a day, every day ?

Neither. Yanno, for an atheist you're awfully pro-Christian.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:38 AM

WISHIMAY

You know what I think these Christian/Muslim debate threads need every time I see one???

A nice slide show of lots of bastards from all the major religions in the world, and a rating system like one star=minor bastard, two stars and so on... Then we can all see which religion has the shortest slide show, so we know just who's who, and who to not hang around with...

Just a thought...

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And getting back to my original point... which would you rather have.

Church bells, once a week, signalling a call to mass ?

Or a call to prayer, 5 x's a day, every day ?

Given a free choice to ignore one, or a knife to the neck to submit and obey to the other, I'll take the former, thank you very much.

Actually having holidayed in a predominantly Muslim country, the call to prayer by the muezzin is really quite splendid. And like church bells, also splendid, especially in parts of Europe, I enjoyed and walked on, unmoved to prayer.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:05 PM

America loves a winner!

When Christians start acting like Islamic radicals, then call me.

And Iraq ? What is your point ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:09 PM

Who, but someone quite unhinged in their hatred, would compare this footballer with radical Muslims? Really, you need to get a grip.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:37 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rappy, I have made my point about four times in this thread. If you haven't got if BY NOW, making my point again isn't going to help. You are obdurate in your ignorance.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:44 PM

America loves a winner!

No ignorance at all on my point, you're just not making your case. The result of the Iraq war is a totally separate issue, not remotely comparable to the threat of radical Islam.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Whatever.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I guess no one here has been following the very "Christian" response to Jessica Ahlquist, then...

Or perhaps the religious involvement of Blackwater, which borders on the downright creepifying...

Or the relationship between the Assembly of God, the juvie justice system, and our military...

Just cause you don't WANT to see it, don't mean it ain't there.

Me, I'd love to see ALL them damn fanatics on both sides kill each other, and to me the only essential difference between islamofascists and christofascists is that the christofascists are over HERE and an actual imminent, ongoing threat, and the islamofascists are over THERE and no such problem - seriously, they've been unable to do one damn thing to hurt us without the *help* of our so-called protectors to do it!
(Again, WHO gave Ramzi Youssef the bomb?)

Problem is, despite assertations to the contrary, yon pigheaded fool here *is* a christofascist, or at least okay with the notion of THEM ramming belief down peoples throat on a pike, which is why I consider him some lower form of life and don't bother with his dumb ass, usually.

Yeah, I got my biases too, since my notion of the true face of evil is what you see when you pull the mask off christianity, something ever so reinforced by their conduct towards the young, the helpless - like all bullies, strong to the weak, and weak to the strong, sure...
And cause of that someone who is christian and NOT evil starts from negative numbers with me and must prove out, and that's gonna remain so till they quit supporting, covering for, aiding and abetting such behavior instead of disowning those who engage in it and pitching them out on their ear.

I hold THAT one against islam as well, AND judaism, for it is by the acceptance of evils that we internalize and normalize them, which poisons us, brings down the veil of the Blind God so that we can see only the evils of others and never our own.

A real human being is willing to own their own conduct, and that should tellya why I do not choose to grant that consideration to some.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:39 PM

Shame on you for bringing a well thought out response to this thread. This is for cliched one liners and images only, thank you very much.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Meh heh heh, it's a well known fact that I am bloody well shameless, being more Libertine than Libertarian... and a sheet or two to the wind besides, Alex makes some niiiice homebrew he does...

-F

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 4:26 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
When Christians start acting like Islamic radicals, then call me. ...No ignorance at all on my point, you're just not making your case. The result of the Iraq war is a totally separate issue, not remotely comparable to the threat of radical Islam.

God, is YOUR brain wrapped in a towel? If it's not a Islamist threat, it's not an issue?

Yeah, so there are murderers and terrorists over there killing peeps. Yanno what? THAT INCLUDES US. I see not one jot of difference between them and us, except we have more firepower. So if you would stop feeling so self-congratulatory for a few nanoseconds, you might actually come to a solution to your fears. Because that's ALL that's driving you: fear. And you've got no reason to be in such a pissy panic.

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 6:14 PM

WISHIMAY

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Actually having holidayed in a predominantly Muslim country, the call to prayer by the muezzin is really quite splendid. And like church bells, also splendid, especially in parts of Europe, I enjoyed and walked on, unmoved to prayer.

Uhgh, you can keep 'em... My gran lived near a church that went off every 15 damnded minutes until a few years ago, I could not take a nap or sit outside and have a conversation with those things around. YOU may have been unmoved, but they made me nuts! Subtle intimidation, says I. You wanna ring them IN your church, be my guest...Outside is my earspace, too. Not to mention legally I'm not allowed to make massive noise, why should they get to??

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:57 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

This is typical of people on the left, freak out because someone is praying, oh no what will we do?!!!! I get soooooooooo tired of this kind of whinging. What the football player does is his business, if he wants to pray for his team then so be it. I agree that a football match isn't really the most important thing and its probably not something that will change the course of the world, but praying just to pray is his right and I believe as a Christian that its a good thing.

Signe does make an excellent point though with the Luke reference, it can be construed as showing off which is something that God does not like, Jesus mentions it several times, how we aren't supposed to show off when we pray. So really good point Signe and the only valid complaint I've seen about the situation.

If you were to count the number of religeously motivated murders and mamings in the last 20 years committed by folks claiming to glorify God and the number of folks claiming to glorify Allah (spelling?) I think we all know what we'd find in the statistics. True there are whackos and murderers in every country and of every faith, I don't dispute that, but to deny the numbers right now would be silly. I don't think our war with Iraq counts as a religeously motivated event, I don't care if Frem would be contrary in what he thinks because he just has it in for most religeons anyways so he looks for oppertunities to blame them for everything, especially mine because its his pet favorite to crack on.

I do think Frem's Twain story makes some really valid points though and should serve as a reminder about how one might want to pray. Everyone who goes into a war thinks God is on their side. And war is a horrible thing that I'd rather avoid than get involved in, unless its absolutely necessary.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 9:44 PM

Whinging? Did any one of us who doesn't like Tebow bring up the thread? They asked my opinion. I answered, and I answered why.

Much as people get accused of being obsessed about some things, it's rarely ever US bringing it up. Why's that?

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Sunday, January 15, 2012 9:56 PM

I don't think anyone said he doesn't have a right to do it, only that it was kind of tacky. Personally, I have a desire that people keep their god bothering private, but no doubt i'm going to have to live with that not being the case. Still, I'm VERY happy to live in a country that is much more secular than the US.

It's Rappy's insane argument that if you criticise it, you're an apologist for terrorism and you can't wait for sharia law to be mandatory. Work that one out if you can.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 4:06 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
When Christians start acting like Islamic radicals, then call me. ...No ignorance at all on my point, you're just not making your case. The result of the Iraq war is a totally separate issue, not remotely comparable to the threat of radical Islam.
God, is YOUR brain wrapped in a towel? If it's not a Islamist threat, it's not an issue?

It's not an issue I which should be obfuscated and diluted with nonsensical crap like Blackwater or Vietnam. The issue of Islamic radicalism is very real, and shouldn't be glossed over by lumping it in with other, irrelevant issues.

Quote:

Yeah, so there are murderers and terrorists over there killing peeps. Yanno what? THAT INCLUDES US. I see not one jot of difference between them and us, except we have more firepower. So if you would stop feeling so self-congratulatory for a few nanoseconds, you might actually come to a solution to your fears. Because that's ALL that's driving you: fear. And you've got no reason to be in such a pissy panic.

That you see no difference is the problem.

And the only fear I have is people like you, who pretend there is no problem.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 5:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Feh, ain't what someone BELIEVES Riona, it's how they ACT...

If the mainstream religions want my respect they can earn it by pitching those kinds of creeps out on their ear, disowning and shunning them, instead of covering for them and making excuses, and I hold em all responsible for that, yanno ?

As for individuals, they would do better with me via setting an EXAMPLE than offering threats and malice, which both you and Anthony do, quite credibly - cause the other end of example setting is the obnoxious, arrogant hubris of folk who seem to think they own a Dietys favor or something...
Is not Pride the mother of em all, yes ?

For mine own my beliefs don't work that way, I ain't supposed to set an example and prosthelysing is absolutely, utterly forbidden since it's actually strongly encouraged to out and out strangle to death people who do so, but I won't get into that... I will say I am perhaps a bit unfaithful in that my tolerance goes a bit farther than a strict interpretation of my beliefs would allow, but to not bend the rules is an even less faithful interpretation - it's complicated.

Anyhows, I could care less about some obnoxious football player who I've never even watched.
I worry more about folk who wanna thrust theirs on me, and being an obnoxious ass about what you believe does not necessarily include pushing it at folk.

Speakin of obnoxious...

Quote:
Uhgh, you can keep 'em... My gran lived near a church that went off every 15 damnded minutes until a few years ago, I could not take a nap or sit outside and have a conversation with those things around. YOU may have been unmoved, but they made me nuts! Subtle intimidation, says I. You wanna ring them IN your church, be my guest...Outside is my earspace, too. Not to mention legally I'm not allowed to make massive noise, why should they get to??

I feel EXACTLY the same about them salvation army bellringers, right down to the intimidation part - however since it appears to cheer and amuse others, particularly children, I just grit my teeth and say nothing, since I rate their happiness as greater than soothing my temporary and mild annoyance.

-Frem
PS. Ain't just christians, we got a resident who's islamic and was starting to annoy his neighbors with it, till I pointed out that Allah can hear you whether you whisper or shout, and invoked the Compact of Medina on him, which flummoxed him totally that a heretic non-believer would even know what it was, much less invoke it on behalf of his christian neighbors.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 6:22 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

This is exactly what's wrong with the world, and you can quote me, this absolutism, this one side versus the other. Crazy Islamists and Crazy Christians are both bad. Why even have this discussion? We have real problems that we need to work on.
I'd also like to add that this country was founded on something called Religious Freedom, correct? I should think Founding Father Patriot huggers (who ever you are) would be all about keeping that intact. Maybe it was a limited time offer?
I personally could care less if he prays, do your thang, whatever, though it is a bit like SignyM says, self-centered. TT's a good guy - we could use more like him. And sometimes athletes pray more like, "Please keep me from letting my teammates down... let me play up to my abilities..." it is as PeaceKeeper said, more like self-hypnosis and a way of dealing with FEAR.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Monday, January 16, 2012 7:18 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
It's not an issue I which should be obfuscated and diluted with nonsensical crap like Blackwater or Vietnam. The issue of Islamic radicalism is very real, and shouldn't be glossed over by lumping it in with other, irrelevant issues.

Then let me address your fears.

It's quite obvious that you're NOT afraid of "terrorism". You're really not. Stop saying so, and stop bringing it up. Stop re-running the image of a man holding up a bloody head. That isn't what bothers you. What REALLY bothers you is that the man has a kefiya on his head, not a helmet. If he had a helmet on his head, you'd be thinking GO TEAM! You're all for terrorists, as long as you think they're on your side. Jack Bauer, anyone? So don't tell us that you're afraid of "terrorism", please don't even bring that up again. This isn't a moral question for you about the means to an end, it's (in your mind) a question of survival. You're in a panic about radical Islam, so be specific.

What is it, specifically, that bothers you? Do you see the world being taken over by Islam? Do you fear that the message of a militant religion is stronger than the message of a capitalist economy?

Maybe it would help you to know what is driving this militancy, how the Muslim message stacks up against the West's, and possibly what to do about it. Because IMHO, there are three things driving radical Islam: unemployment, nationalism, and unity of purpose.

Most of the Middle East has a serious unemployment problem. Believe it or not, the more extreme Islamic groups actually act as aid societies in Egypt, Pakistan etc. bringing bread, water, security, and schools to poor neighborhoods. Sure, the schools are madrasses (funded by Saudi Arabia) but at least the kids are off the street doing something purposeful. And national governments find Islam a useful distraction to avoid more pointed questions about corruption.

Then, there is nationalism. It burns if your nation is invaded and occupied. Young men think of vengeance. Fertile ground for recruitment.

Finally, there is unity of purpose. The message of Islam is simple and direct, and everyone knows their place in the faith- young men particularly, as they are highly rewarded for being warriors for the cause. What is the message of the West? What is YOUR message, specifically: Every man for himself and god against all? That message does not satisfy the natural human longing to be part of something bigger, or the desire for fairness.

Let me close with two curious facts: We invaded and destroyed the ONLY two governments that were adamantly secular (Do you know which ones those were?) and we support two tyrannies which actively export radical Islam. (Do you know which ones those are?) AND YOU SUPPORTED ALL OF THE ABOVE. So what is our government's agenda, anyway?? It seems at cross-purposes to yours, and you seem to be unaware of that.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 7:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
A nice slide show of lots of bastards from all the major religions in the world, and a rating system like one star=minor bastard, two stars and so on

Excellently said, Wish! And shows just how ridiculous these threads get to be.

Quote:
This is exactly what's wrong with the world, and you can quote me, this absolutism, this one side versus the other. Crazy Islamists and Crazy Christians are both bad. Why even have this discussion? We have real problems that we need to work on.

Amen, Pizmo.

Quote:
I'd also like to add that this country was founded on something called Religious Freedom, correct?

From all that's been happening, that seems to have totaly escaped the consciousness of our country--sadly, it seems especially those who are proudest to call themselves "Christians", for quite some time now.

Quote:
This is typical of people on the left, freak out because someone is praying, oh no what will we do?!!!! I get soooooooooo tired of this kind of whinging.

Riona, it has nothing to do with "whinging". Those of us who DO respect all religions are trying to bring PERSPECTIVE to a discussion which is incapable of having any. We're not "pro-Muslim", we're "anti-Christianity being foisted on a country which supposedly respects all religions", and the concept that Christians are so lilly white and Muslims are "evil". We're against children being FORCED to either pray with or sit through Christian prayers, and find public spectacles of people's religions inappropriate.

Nobody here (far as I know) is against prayer. But if we ARE a country which respects all religions, then prayer should be a private matter, practiced with those of the same faith, not put on display where people of OTHER faiths (or none) are forced to see it. Those of us speaking up are doing so about the fact that Tebow's public prayer is self-agrandizing and, as you said, "tacky", not to mention the fact that it seems to attribute whatever he did as God actually making it possible for him to do.

On the subject of bells, etc., in Afghanistan I thought the call to prayer was beautiful to hear, it's actually quite musical and akin in some ways to Jewish cantors. I also spent time in Europe, and thought their bells were really beautiful to hear. On the other hand, we have two churches here in San Rafael which sound the hours and the Sunday call to prayer; in both cases, they are RECORDED sounds of bells, not real bells, and they disgust me.

Quote:
This is typical of people on the left, freak out because someone is praying, oh no what will we do?!!!! I get soooooooooo tired of this kind of whinging.

is a very rude thing to do. NOBODY, left or right, "freaks out" because someone is praying--cite one example, please. We stand up for the right NOT to have one religion foisted upon us, and point out why public displays such as Tebows are inappropriate and, in some cases, worthy of satire. Has nothing to do with hate, fear, or anything like what you and Rap are complaining about. That's where all this goes wrong; it's not about absolutism on both sides, it's about absolutism on one side and the dislike of absolutism on the other. As I said, we're not pro-Islamist or believe that Muslims are any better than Christians, or anyone else. It's an attempt to illustrate that ALL religions have inspired violence at one time or another, Christianity notwithstanding, which is true. To keep count, or argue "how many" for ANY side is absurd, and that's what we try to point out, which of course gives Rap the excuse to say we "coddle" Muslims and whatever other terms he enjoys hurling at anyone who ever tries to bring perspective to any discussion.

I have nothing against Tebow, from all I read here he sounds like a good guy. I don't even have anything against his religious displays, I just find it silly and I'M sick of Christian zelots condemning everyone who's not exactly like them and/or makes public displays of CHRISTIAN religion (we've already seen how they go off the deep end at others' displays of THEIR religion...not that many aside from Christians in this country do so, for obvious reasons). Hell, they don't even want places of worship for others to practice their faith in PRIVATE, for gawd's sake!

I like the concept that

Quote:
sometimes athletes pray more like, "Please keep me from letting my teammates down... let me play up to my abilities..." it is as PeaceKeeper said, more like self-hypnosis and a way of dealing with FEAR.

I could accept it as such, but I don't think the example of Tebow reflects that, personally. I think it is more a sign of the times, a public display which, again, says "I'm more Christian than you are" and to me is giving the finger to everyone else in that way. It's quite common these days for the religious among us to make that sort of statement, and I find THAT reprehensible.

Mostly I'm with Magons; I fervently wish America wasn't so damned grounded in Puritanical mentality, which has caused us problems even outside religion (like our double standard about sex). It would be so much nicer if we were tolerant of all religions and felt none had to be agrandized above any other. But I live here, so I will speak my opinion on the matter...which has NOTHING to do with whinging.

ETA: I just ran across this. I don't dislike Tebow, much less "hate" him (?). But yes, I do "resent" statements like this:

Quote:
“If you have Jesus Christ in your heart, you are going to spend eternity in heaven. If you don’t, you’re going to spend eternity in hell.” http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/12/08/tim-tebow-and-faiths-place-in-foot
ball/#ixzz1jejzI8mA of story.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 1:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

About bells and calls to prayer, they can both be pretty to listen to in their own way, very different sounds but they both sound interesting. But either would get old fast if I had to hear it all the time. Have any cities in the US created rules for how many times a day loud noises like that can happen?

I hate recorded bells, at my university we had a fake bell that tolled on the hour out behind the main buildings, it was tacky.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 16, 2012 1:45 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I went to youtube to hear what a call to prayer (adhan, azzan) sounds like. They are amazingly individual. BUT, I gotta say... being turned into an art form makes it very very veeeeerrrryyy long, as each muzzein seems to by vying for some invisible prize as to who can hold a note the longest! What might otherwise take one minute stretches out to five!

This reminds me of one of our parish priests, who thought he was an opera singer (in the days of the Latin mass, which I still find beautiful BTW). His masses were at least 15 minutes longer than anyone else's. I used to think ... hey, I'm not here to listen to Tosca, I want to get out of here and go play!

Anyway, here are some beautiful adhans

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Monday, January 16, 2012 1:54 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Signe, I love Latin chant. But yeah, when you're little it isn't as exciting when it interferes with playtime.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 16, 2012 2:00 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I used to sing choir in Latin. Et cum spiritu tuo I can still sing Sanctus by heart.

So, just to balance things out, campanile bells and church bells. In the second one, the bells don't all start ringing until halfway through.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 2:57 PM

Oh well, I adore traditional church music - not your happy clappy pentecostal stuff which makes me want to injure kittens, but gregorian chants etc.

Is this the best piece of music? One of the best

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Monday, January 16, 2012 3:11 PM

Hey, my brother went to Kings. Did you go there when you lived in England?

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Monday, January 16, 2012 3:17 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
This is exactly what's wrong with the world, and you can quote me, this absolutism, this one side versus the other. Crazy Islamists and Crazy Christians are both bad. Why even have this discussion? We have real problems that we need to work on.

Uber religionism CAN be extremely bad, but that's not the issue. Not today, not in our world.

Pity you can't see things as they are, and instead simply want to play the 'even-steven' game, and paint everybody equally good, or bad, and if we'd all just hold hands ( and ignore the facts ) , then everything would be all shiny and bright!

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, January 16, 2012 3:19 PM

Not when I lived there, when I was less into choral music and more into partying and clubbing. I may have gone when I was young with my parents. I remember lots of cathedrals and chapels....too many cathedrals, frankly.

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Monday, January 16, 2012 4:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's not an issue I which should be obfuscated and diluted with nonsensical crap like Blackwater or Vietnam. The issue of Islamic radicalism is very real, and shouldn't be glossed over by lumping it in with other, irrelevant issues.

The point you keep missing is that what you claim is a "very real" issue was claimed about Vietnam back in its day, too. Remember? If Vietnam fell, the rest of the world would fall, and we'd all be commies next year!

Islamic radicalism is exactly as much a threat to me today as the Viet Cong are. That you can't see that - that you can continually, time after time after time, be wound up by the "FEAR ME!" meme - really tells us quite a bit about you.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, January 16, 2012 5:39 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Also "They're evil. 'Cause when WE kill people we really don't mean it!"

*snicker*

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 4:19 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Uber religionism CAN be extremely bad, but that's not the issue. Not today, not in our world.

Pity you can't see things as they are, and instead simply want to play the 'even-steven' game, and paint everybody equally good, or bad, and if we'd all just hold hands ( and ignore the facts ) , then everything would be all shiny and bright!

You want to paint people and hold hands? S'what?

Help me here - did our combined 18 years and $4,400,000,000,000.00 dollars spent in Iraq and Afghanistan... do you think:

A. It Helped or Hurt recruiting for Islamic Extremists?

B. Helped us build a stronger country at home?

C. Helped our image globally? (I know - sucks having to share an increasingly smaller planet with others - maybe if we just ignore everyone else they'll go away?).

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 5:59 AM

America loves a winner!

I'm not all that concerned about our global image. It was falsely smeared in the 80's, when Reagan was trying to defeat Soviet Communism, and we still won. Iraq then went in an invaded Kuwait, and what did we and the West do ? Go liberate Kuwait. Muslims were being genocided in Bosnia, and did we take the side of Christians ? Nope. Was there oil to be had ? Nope, and yet we STILL went in, and we're STILL painted as the " bad guys ". And all this was before 9/11, which, contrary to what you may want to believe, was NOT 'brought upon ourselves'.

That right there is the biggest problem, the willingness of so many to want to blame the victim here, when the constant in nearly ALL the violence in the world is radical Islam.

Hell, even as we were aiding the Mujaheddin in the 80's, fighting the Soviet Red army, giving them aid and ammo, what did the soldiers of Allah say to us ?

Was it thank you ? Hell no, it was " You're next! " . Many just laughed, and shook their heads in disbelief. But ya know what ? They MEANT it.

Sadly, it may take another 9/11 for some folks to wake the hell up, but I doubt it. They'll naively and dumbly blame Bush, as if this all started with him , and that dastardly stolen election of 2000!

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:07 AM

We went into Bosnia and Herzegovina because we had interests in establishing military bases there. They were socialist/communist before our intervention, and also right next to the old East Europe Soviet Block which we still wanted to keep our eyes on even though the soviets had fallen.

No resources like oil to speak of, no, but very much a Neo-Con military project anti-communism coup. We don't really care so much about the people in a country, so long as an ideology we approve of wins.

Peacekeeping just doesn't pay the bills. We go in somewhere, it's not out of the goodness of our hearts, its because there's an advantage.

Quote:
Was it thank you ? Hell no, it was " You're next! " . Many just laughed, and shook their heads in disbelief. But ya know what ? They MEANT it.

And why wouldn't they? They knew as much as we did we were only using them to get at the soviets and secure an oil pipeline, which failed, utterly. Considering the absolute debacle we made of the national boundaries and the leadership we put in charge in the fifty years prior, they had every reason to dislike us. Of course, they carry some blame themselves for being unable to construct any kind of national identity when they're mixed in with other religious sects, but we did put them in that situation in the first place due to sheer ignorance of the tribal lines.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:38 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
We went into Bosnia and Herzegovina because we had interests in establishing military bases there.

I was unaware that Clinton was such a war monger, willing to expand the reach of the US military, at the objections of the GOP. ( who traditionally get accused of being in the pocket of the military industrial complex ) Military bases may have been the natural consequence of that military action, but the sole purpose ?

Quote:

Peacekeeping just doesn't pay the bills. We go in somewhere, it's not out of the goodness of our hearts, its because there's an advantage.

I'm not totally against that idea myself. It only makes sense, that if we're going to spend blood and resources on a mission of mercy, it's going to have to be compensated.

Quote:

Quote:
Was it thank you ? Hell no, it was " You're next! " . Many just laughed, and shook their heads in disbelief. But ya know what ? They MEANT it.

And why wouldn't they? They knew as much as we did we were only using them to get at the soviets and secure an oil pipeline, which failed, utterly. Considering the absolute debacle we made of the national boundaries and the leadership we put in charge in the fifty years prior, they had every reason to dislike us. Of course, they carry some blame themselves for being unable to construct any kind of national identity when they're mixed in with other religious sects, but we did put them in that situation in the first place due to sheer ignorance of the tribal lines.

Again, regardless of our objectives, that's how you treat those who help you out ? Nonsense. This was far less about any pipeline, for the Mujaheddin, and more about spreading Islam. The pipeline may have been a positive consequence, but so what ? There's hardly a spot on the planet that has ZERO strategic / economic value.

I think you're confusing Afghanistan w/ Iraq , and boundaries . And what of the British? Just as with Israel, it was they, not US who buggered out and arbitrarily set up boundaries, and some how WE get the blame ? Germany and Japan seemed to fare pretty well after WW2, and we were FAR more involved w/ them than we were for Afghanistan / Iraq or Israel.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:39 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm not all that concerned about our global image.

How Barry White of you.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:50 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Peacekeeping just doesn't pay the bills. We go in somewhere, it's not out of the goodness of our hearts, its because there's an advantage.

I saw Generation Kill, read the book - fascinating first hand account. I then read the bio by one of the west pointers that was involved. It struck me that from his perspective the notion of old school Honor and Duty, and that Dime store cliche of "A man needs War" to test himself fully, was very much alive in his accounts.
Conclusion: There's no way a professional military will simply sit and drill - as much as we'd see that as a sign of an advanced civilization, they will do everything they can to make sure that does not happen. They have been spectacularly successful in this.
I think they need only the barest of reasons, or Ideals, to hang their Missions on.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And all this was before 9/11, which, contrary to what you may want to believe, was NOT 'brought upon ourselves'. That right there is the biggest problem, the willingness of so many to want to blame the victim here

Who's the "victim" here, rappy? The USA, with bases all over the Middle East, responsible for killing hundreds of thousand of people and deposing numerous governments? Or the people of the Middle East? Don't ever forget that WE are in THEIR country, not the other way around. You have a strange way of thinking yourself somehow victimized.

Quote:
Sadly, it may take another 9/11 for some folks to wake the hell up

You dumb fuck. If it took 9-11 to wake YOU up, then you really weren't paying attention, were you??? If you got your head out of your ass once in a while and took it our for fresh air, you'd realize that... YES, we DID engineer a lot of of own problems. We supported the mujahideen. WHY??? We support the monarchy of Saudi Arabia, which uses part of its tremendous oil wealth to export its radical wahabis and fund madrases all over the ME and Africa.

Let me re-post a previous post
-------------------

It's quite obvious that you're NOT afraid of "terrorism". You're really not. Stop saying so, and stop bringing it up. Stop re-running the image of a man holding up a bloody head. That isn't what bothers you. What REALLY bothers you is that the man has a kefiya on his head, not a helmet. If he had a helmet on his head, you'd be thinking GO TEAM! You're all for terrorists, as long as you think they're on your side. Jack Bauer, anyone? So don't tell us that you're afraid of "terrorism", please don't even bring that up again. This isn't a moral question for you about the means to an end, it's (in your mind) a question of survival. You're in a panic about radical Islam, so be specific.

What is it, specifically, that bothers you? Do you see the world being taken over by Islam? Do you fear that the message of a militant religion is stronger than the message of a capitalist economy?

Maybe it would help you to know what is driving this militancy, how the Muslim message stacks up against the West's, and possibly what to do about it. Because IMHO, there are three things driving radical Islam: unemployment, nationalism, and unity of purpose.

Most of the Middle East has a serious unemployment problem. Believe it or not, the more extreme Islamic groups actually act as aid societies in Egypt, Pakistan etc. bringing bread, water, security, and schools to poor neighborhoods. Sure, the schools are madrasses (funded by Saudi Arabia) but at least the kids are off the street doing something purposeful. And national governments find Islam a useful distraction to avoid more pointed questions about corruption.

Then, there is nationalism. It burns if your nation is invaded and occupied. Young men think of vengeance. Fertile ground for recruitment.

Finally, there is unity of purpose. The message of Islam is simple and direct, and everyone knows their place in the faith- young men particularly, as they are highly rewarded for being warriors for the cause. What is the message of the West? What is YOUR message, specifically: Every man for himself and god against all? That message does not satisfy the natural human longing to be part of something bigger, or the desire for fairness.

Let me close with two curious facts: We invaded and destroyed the ONLY two governments that were adamantly secular (Do you know which ones those were?) and we support two tyrannies which actively export radical Islam. (Do you know which ones those are?) AND YOU SUPPORTED ALL OF THE ABOVE. So what is our government's agenda, anyway?? It seems at cross-purposes to yours, and you seem to be unaware of that.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:54 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm not all that concerned about our global image.

How Barry White of you.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

???

He did make this look good!

And Sig... blah blah blah.

Hope they have burkas in your size. ( does color really matter ? )

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:56 AM

Quote:
I was unaware that Clinton was such a war monger, willing to expand the reach of the US military, at the objections of the GOP. ( who traditionally get accused of being in the pocket of the military industrial complex ) Military bases may have been the natural consequence of that military action, but the sole purpose ?

Bill Clinton was very much a war monger. Seem to recall hearing mention of him bombing some medicine factories out in the Fertile Crescent, and also ignoring the threat of terrorism. Pretty much the same as Dubya's foreign policy until 9-11, and no coincidence. Don't know if you've noticed, but Slick Willy and Dubya's pappy are pretty close friends.

Both Neo-Libs and Neo-Cons are two sides of the same coin. Saying it's just the GOP that likes their DOD spending is pretty funny. Wouldn't have thought you'd be one to incriminate your own side over the demorats, though.

Quote:
Military bases may have been the natural consequence of that military action, but the sole purpose ?

Well, we are an empire. Can't exactly monitor or control territory or look out for our interests in foreign countries without bases. Our Embassies and Ambassadors generally don't go armed.

Quote:
that's how you treat those who help you out ?

We were helping them? I thought the high death toll and the throwing them against the soviets was a fairly obvious indication otherwise.

It's like giving a suicidal man a gun with one bullet. Not sure under what definition of "help" that qualifies as.

Quote:
I think you're confusing Afghanistan w/ Iraq , and boundaries .

Oh, that whole area has been a clusterfuck of sectarian violence, territory disputes, back and forth coups, and hated leadership since WWI. Afghanistan, like Arabia, was also an English colony, was also subject to British Divide and Rule policy, until for some reason around 1918 and 1919, they decided to toss all those tribes together and let them fight it out for themselves.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:04 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:
that's how you treat those who help you out ?

We were helping them? I thought the high death toll and the throwing them against the soviets was a fairly obvious indication otherwise.

Umm... we threw them at the Soviets ? Who invaded whom, again?

Our choices were a) Help them, like we did , or b ) do absolutely nothing, and allow the Soviets to plow them into the ground, and establish yet 1 more satellite nation , that much closer to the oil fields and warm water ports of the Gulf. , or c ) direct military conflict w/ the Soviet Union, and starting WW3.

Seems to me you wanted b or c, but not a ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I would have left them alone. Afghanistan??? They could have had it! And Pakistan too, for that matter! AND Ethiopia! If they want to take charge of a bunch of impoverished benighted nations and make something of them... I say "Go for it".

Quote:
And Sig... blah blah blah.

Apparently this is the only thing your head contains... blah blah blah. Time to stop listening to you!

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:12 AM

Quote:
Umm... we threw them at the Soviets ? Who invaded whom, again?

Our choices were a) Help them, like we did , or b ) do absolutely nothing, and allow the Soviets to plow them into the ground, and establish yet 1 more satellite nation , that much closer to the oil fields and warm water ports of the Gulf. , or c ) direct military conflict w/ the Soviet Union, and starting WW3.

Seems to me you wanted b or c, but not a ?

The conversation isn't about what our choices were, the conversation is about why they hate us.

Let's see, instead of sending our own soldiers in because of Cold War fears, we trained and armed a bunch of mujahideen and fought a proxy war through them. Russia might have invaded first, but what exactly do you call our response if not throwing the mujahideen at the problem? And when they died, do you think we really cared? We considered them expendable cannon fodder. They hated us for it. Seems pretty understandable.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:13 AM

America loves a winner!

And there you have it. Let them have Afghanistan...why ? Because you're a fan of Soviet Russia, and wanted to see that oppression expand even further ?

WOW.

Thankfully, others w/ more foresight than you were in positions of power and influence back then.

And Ethiopia ? Huh?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:25 AM