REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

This cartyoon tells it all.

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, February 10, 2014 11:20
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7534
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Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


ALSO
Quote:
Or save the world from uppity NAZIS ? No, we didn't do it alone, but we made the job a hell of a lot easier for all those who we fought along side.
The Russians defeated Hitler. We were just a distraction on the Western front, which was a picnic compared to the OTHER front. By the end of the war, Germans were retreating from their Eastern front as fast as they could run, or hitch an ride on a train or personnel carrier, literally. I got that story from a witness, not a history book.

In fact, we were so afraid of Russia- which was rolling over not only the European theater but also expanding in the Pacific region with frightening speed, that we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki as an object lesson. Not to teach Japan a lesson or shorten the war (Japan was ready to surrender) but to show the RUSSIANS that we were heartless bastards who would use this terrible new weapon on ANYONE, military or civilian.


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Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Not gonna bother with this bullshit. Maybe I'll go back and see if some actual discussion took place and respond later. But initially I got far enough in to see our local troll had Chris going (shame on you, Chris, you should know better!).

But for those interested:



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Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, so I went back and read it, skipping over the usual bullshit and Byte flying off the handle (I didn't see what Magons said as a personal attack on you, Byte, merely a refutation of your points and a rather accurate snark about many Americans' mentality).

Magons:
Quote:
Denying that anyone else might do it better is also a sign of hubris, and something that I have noted is somewhat characteristic of the American psyche. If you believe in American exceptionalism, then you believe that America is the greatest, Americans are naturally better, and if it werent thought up by Americans then it aint worth doing.

I think in someways the econmic downturn is a necessary, albeit painful experience for America as a nation. A shock for some, that maybe Americas standing at the top of the world wasn't a natural state of being, but something that needs some hard re-evaluating if you want to get back up ther, if indeed that's what you want.

It doesn't hurt to look at what works elsewhere, otherwise you're in danger of putting effort into reiventing the wheel when someone else did that 10,000 years ago. I think the biggest example is your healthcare system. I mean, honestly, did ANYONE at least look at what works and what doesn't work in public health systems elsewhere?

KPO:
Quote:
It's not just the economic downturn, I think it's the emerging challenge of China, and the prospect of losing the position as greatest power in the world, that the American psyche has to come to terms with.

Britain's been through it all, of course. We were exceptional. We dominated 1/4 of the globe. We were the Empire on which the sun never set. We were the 'New Jerusalem'. Then our star faded - or rather, others grew, and eclipsed ours.

America has to manage its transition from global hegemon to 'upper-mid sized power that punches above its weight'. Let's hope that the order rearranges more peacefully this century than it did in the last.

Excellent points, both of you, and I agree.

Oonj:
Quote:
My country hasn't been in this much trouble since the Great
Depression, & maybe not then. We need to turn back to ways
that work & proven values. Honesty, mutual Respect + a large
helping of Humility. Open mind, a thirst to Learn.
Speakin' of the 1930s, policies of pessimism & negativity
were Not what got us thru that.


Oonj, in my opinion we do need to look back to ways that work, but the world is a lot different now (just for one, women in the workforce), so we also need to look for innovations to incorporate those things into today's world. Also, I don't see it happening; as I've long said, I believe America is a dying empire and how we will come out of it is anyone's guess. "Honesty, mutual respect, humility, open mind and a thirst to learn" aren't exactly prevalent in our society today, and I don't know how you bring them back, if you can.

Magons, you're confusing people looking at what works elsewhere and the ABILITY TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING. Bear in mind our ACA is a bastardization of many things, because that's all that could be achieved, given our present government (which, as Oonj points out so aptly, is no longer "representative"). Look at how long we've been trying to get ANYTHING changed, and the political mess that's resulted from even getting the ACA!

KPO, in my opinion you nailed it: "America has to manage its transition from global hegemon to 'upper-mid sized power". We ain't doin' so good, thus far.

And Sig, leaving aside your feelings about America (which I won't get into), your point was also quite salient: "It seems that happiness is as easily predicted in China as it is in Iceland, Denmark, and anyplace else: less work, and more time and resources for fun stuff." The question is: How to achieve that, and how to sustain it. Has any country, ever, for any great length of time?


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Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I'll ignore the mindless debate with those who want to re-write the history of WW2, and paint a skewed picture of what really happened. That's for another thread.

As for the cartoon ? It's utter bunk. We aren't the Scandinavian countries. What works there doesn't mean it would work here. That's the problem w/ some idealists. They see coconuts palms growing in the south pacific, and think they can just uproot them and grow them in Montana or New York. Sure, with a great deal of effort, you MAY get a few to grow, but they won't flourish. Entirely different landscape, and climate.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.





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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Never once did I say such a thing.
If most folks disagree with you, and you say the majority is wrong, and you are right & know the truth, you are saying you know the truth and we don't. So you did and do say it constantly. It's like a mantra for you. The word truth pops up in every thread. You're obsessed with your perception of it, and everyone else's denial of it (well, YOUR version of it, anyway).

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
And Sig, leaving aside your feelings about America (which I won't get into)
America spends more on the military than the next 14 countries COMBINED... and most of those are our allies. We have toppled over 50 nations since WW2, most of them democratically elected. Not to advance democracy (because democratic results are clearly unacceptable to us!), but to institute subservient capitalist/ fascist economies. We pumped huge amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, literally poisoning the ecosphere. These seem significant criticisms, wouldn't you say?

Also, my history of WW2 is accurate. My dad, a former Russian POW, Siberian labor camp inmate, Polish nationalist, and no lover of Russia, was a WW2 history buff. He would tell you the same thing that I did. Any serious student of war history will say the same thing. Sorry that it contradicts all those Hollywood WW2 movies.
Quote:
your point was also quite salient: "It seems that happiness is as easily predicted in China as it is in Iceland, Denmark, and anyplace else: less work, and more time and resources for fun stuff." The question is: How to achieve that, and how to sustain it. Has any country, ever, for any great length of time?
We have the automation technology to eliminate the need for almost any kind of drudge work. We could live in a paradise, except that the automation technology, plus our expanded notions of an acceptable living standard, use quite a bit of energy. In order to make paradise, we would have to severely limit number of people living on the planet... half a billion, maybe. Given that, it is technologically possible and sustainable.

The only thing standing between us and paradise is us. We are simply not willing or able to ditch the old ideas and responses which keep us from doing what is necessary to get there.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Oh my gosh, Byte, you caught me out. I was actually waiting for a chance to find a topic where I could personally, but rather sneakily attack you. But not sneaky enough hey.

Because lets face it, it is ALL about you. Everything is. All the threads are. They are all personally directed at you and about you. Even if others do not see it, you certainly do.





WHEN YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, YOU ARE TALKING TO THEM.

That you are trying to deny that what you said was directed at me is ridiculous. YOU QUOTED ME. You've also had an issue with me on this particular subject ever since HALLOWEEN.

And yet again we take another shot at my mental stability, only this time I have it 100% RIGHT. So I'm not falling for these mind games again.

It's as if you all think me defending myself from an attack is somehow me being self-absorbed simply because I don't agree with you - OH WAIT. That's exactly what it is.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:24 PM

BYTEMITE


Sig: The main points of the article were that the Nordic nations have a high amount of personal debt and that many people have to rely on the blackmarket because of import issues and that they have a large amount of anti-depressants use - although in fairness the later one is probably due to the lower angle of sunlight in northern latitudes.

My comment was how strange it is that the comic is focusing on the lack of student debt, but ignores how they go into debt anyway.

It is strange that we appear to have read two entirely different articles - perhaps you saw writing techniques you didn't like, and stopped early? I will agree that the article is poorly written, and a hatchet job. But those points appear to be accurate.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
It's as if you all think me defending myself from an attack is somehow me being self-absorbed simply because I don't agree with you - OH WAIT. That's exactly what it is.
BYTE, you are conflating defending myself with don't agree with you. I know what it's like to feel surrounded and unfairly criticized. In my experience, the best defense is to stay on topic and continue to discuss the point with a minimum of heat. It's hard to do, but I try to emulate TONY.

Quote:
It is strange that we appear to have read two entirely different articles - perhaps you saw writing techniques you didn't like, and stopped early? I will agree that the article is poorly written, and a hatchet job. But those points appear to be accurate.
No, I read the whole thing thru. But quite frankly, I was not interested in pulling gems out of muck.

Yes, it's interesting that Danes, who have no war machine or education industry to feed, can go so deeply in debt. It would be interesting to see what their government and corporate debt look like, and parse out exactly what it is that the Danes are buying that they don't have money for. BTW- the indebtedness problem seems limited to Denmark. Perhaps I misread the article.



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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Never once did I say such a thing.
If most folks disagree with you, and you say the majority is wrong, and you are right & know the truth, you are saying you know the truth and we don't. So you did and do say it constantly. It's like a mantra for you. The word truth pops up in every thread. You're obsessed with your perception of it, and everyone else's denial of it.


I'm " obsessed " with clarity and communication. And you're drawing connections to dots which aren't even there.


If I go to Mecca, where MOST folks agree that Islam is the true path , guess what ? THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM RIGHT ! Same as if I go to the Vatican! Just because everyone around me says something, and I happen to disagree, that doesn't mean I'm wrong ! Nor does it mean I know "the TRUTH". Just that Allah, Jesus or freaking Ra isn't it.


Quote:
Only Rappy knows the truth; he said so.


I've never said any such thing. If you can cite where I said ONLY I KNOW THE TRUTH , then I'll acknowledge I've made a grievous error, and admit as much. But unless YOU can offer up a legitimate quote, then it'd be decent for YOU to apologize and admit YOU were wrong.

Deal ?


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:36 PM

BYTEMITE


No, I am not.

I have been both disagreeing civilly, AND defending myself from personal attacks - staggered throughout this thread - ferociously.

You want me to tone it down, then keep disagreeing, that's fine, but maybe don't attack me.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Okay, not attacking. Not trying to, anyway!

Please read my reply which I added to (scroll up!), it discusses the article.


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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
No, I am not.

I have been both disagreeing civilly, AND defending myself from personal attacks - staggered throughout this thread - ferociously.

You want me to tone it down, then keep disagreeing, that's fine, but maybe don't attack me.


Anyone who disagrees with " the majority " on here is either stupid and or a troll.

Why ?

Because they said so.

END OF DISCUSSION !

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:46 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
If I go to Mecca, where MOST folks agree that Islam is the true path , guess what ? THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM RIGHT !
You're attempting to compare a religion to present day fact-checkable history. Typical lack of debating skills you demonstrate ad nauseum.

So, what are you doing here anyway? Like to hang out with folk you are so much more correct than? Does it give you that sense of being right all the time that you need? You certainly don't LEARN anything here except that you are superiour.

And that's the point.

Maybe I should go to a NeoNazi website to tell them how stupid they all are because that'd make me feel good... hmmm, never tried that....

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


CHRIS- please pay no attention to rappy. He will insinuate something quite heavily, but then withdraw responsibility for the comment. His view of communication is ... tortured... at best, because he doesn't know how to listen, respond on-topic, or make logical connections. Most importantly, he is a coward who refuses to stand behind his comments. The whining that spewed out of the "Thorium reactors, yay nor nay" thread was instructive.

You're right, he's wrong. But he won't admit it, so let it go.

Quote:
Maybe I should go to a NeoNazi website to tell them how stupid they all are because that'd make me feel good... hmmm, never tried that....
Hey, that sound like fun! Tell me where you're going, and I'll go there too!


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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:48 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But unless YOU can offer up a legitimate quote, then it'd be decent for YOU to apologize and admit YOU were wrong.

Deal ?

Hahahahaha. Kiss my freckled butt.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:50 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
let it go.
Yes, and just to tell ya, you are one of the most informed and informative peeps I've ever encountered online. I can count the times you've been plain wrong about something on no hands.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:56 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Yes, it's interesting that Danes, who have no war machine or education industry to feed, can go so deeply in debt. It would be interesting to see what their government and corporate debt look like, and parse out exactly what it is that the Danes are buying that they don't have money for.


I agree. And like I said, I think this might be some sort of global interest in the average population having lots of debt. It seems logical and consistent with the sorts of control efforts that employees are subject to.

A problem with Denmark, but I wonder what else that the article doesn't go into might be undermining Norway and Sweden - there must be SOMETHING, global interests have to keep people down somehow.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 12:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But unless YOU can offer up a legitimate quote, then it'd be decent for YOU to apologize and admit YOU were wrong.

Deal ?

Hahahahaha. Kiss my freckled butt.


Admission that you can't, and that you're angry now, because I virtually pants you in front of everyone here.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I agree. And like I said, I think this might be some sort of global interest in the average population having lots of debt. It seems logical and consistent with the sorts of control efforts that employees are subject to.
Financialism... the REAL end-stage of capitalism!.... is nothing but a debt-making machine. It doesn't matter what kind of debt - government, corporate, personal- there are financial institutions ready and willing to 'service' them all!

So, perhaps not fair or realistic to look just at personal debt; total debt may be rather low. This needs quite a bit of research, something I don't have time for right now. But an interesting topic, actually, and the article did point out debt issues I didn't know about. So thanks for that!

Quote:
Admission that you can't, and that you're angry now, because I virtually pants you in front of everyone here.
Troll, troll, troll your boat!

Chris, we all know the reality here.

Quote:
Yes, and just to tell ya, you are one of the most informed and informative peeps I've ever encountered online. I can count the times you've been plain wrong about something on no hands.
There are, I'm just not gonna point them out. But yanno, I learn a lot here... a LOT. I can't tell you the number of times people have said stuff that set off a chain reaction. That's why I keep coming here... I keep learning. You all keep me informed!



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Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:04 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think this might be some sort of global interest in the average population having lots of debt.
Without massive popular debt, I believe the rich would be noticeably less so. Not a conspiracy, but merely a tool of wealth and control.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:21 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, "The only thing standing between us and paradise is us. We are simply not willing or able to ditch the old ideas and responses which keep us from doing what is necessary to get there." I agree; there are other aspects of your opinions about America with which I don't agree, that's all.

Byte: I repeat: I saw no personal attacks against you from anyone. As is often the case, I think you are not seeing clearly what people are writing, and take things personally and get upset where you needn't, simple as that.

Chris, this was posted some time ago and a number of us have agreed with it. That is the point I was trying to make (as was Sig). ANY response to our resident troll only tickles him pink and gives him an excuse to troll further (which he will do anyway, but why bother encouraging it?):
Quote:
He may not change, but the conversation can - if we decide to do it.

Right now all we've done is segue from every thread becoming about him - to every thread becoming a series of pics and comments about how we're not gong to let it be about him.

Just actually ignore the little shit. He can keep spewing - but we don't have to let him dominate EVERY GODDAMNED conversation.

Maybe we need some sort of designation. The first person to acknowledge any of that shit is the "sucker of the day" or something.


So, essentially









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Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Sig, "The only thing standing between us and paradise is us. We are simply not willing or able to ditch the old ideas and responses which keep us from doing what is necessary to get there." I agree; there are other aspects of your opinions about America with which I don't agree, that's all.
Based on our military, financial, pollution, spy-network, and media impact on the world, I would say we are the current Heart of Darkness. What part do you disagree with? (needs new thread?)


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Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:27 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
ANY response to our resident troll only tickles him pink and gives him an excuse to troll further
Yeah, I think I finally got it through my thick skull that it is in fact a Troll... ;)

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:30 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Based on our military, financial, pollution, spy-network, and media impact on the world, I would say we are the current Heart of Darkness.
Oh, there were two or three times way back when Humanity was in a worse spot.
Don't know off the top of my head when those were, but....

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:40 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
ANY response to our resident troll only tickles him pink and gives him an excuse to troll further
Yeah, I think I finally got it through my thick skull that it is in fact a Troll... ;)


So... you making baseless claims about me and then me CALLING you on it, some how makes ME the troll, huh?

Guess you picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue, huh ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:48 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yeah, I think I finally got it through my thick skull that it is in fact a Troll... ;)


Atta boy! Good little daggit!

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 2:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Good little daggit!


Yes.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 2:23 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Sig, "The only thing standing between us and paradise is us. We are simply not willing or able to ditch the old ideas and responses which keep us from doing what is necessary to get there." I agree; there are other aspects of your opinions about America with which I don't agree, that's all.
Based on our military, financial, pollution, spy-network, and media impact on the world, I would say we are the current Heart of Darkness. What part do you disagree with? (needs new thread?)



I like where this is going.

I also agree, but with a caveat. I think there are probably a number of other factions out there vying for total control versus (and sometimes in conjunction) with the factions in the US. And since they are all very dangerous and all very secretive, I am somewhat hesitant to make any for certain statement about which faction is the biggest threat, as that might mean underestimating another faction.

So I would say the US is PROBABLY the most dangerous. But I don't want to be absolute on that. Because I think maybe there are things out there that play America like a puppet on strings.


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Saturday, February 8, 2014 3:40 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:


Maybe I should go to a NeoNazi website to tell them how stupid they all are because that'd make me feel good... hmmm, never tried that....


A friend and I briefly trolled the Stormwatch forum by creating a persona who claimed to be albino, and denigrated everyone there for not being white enough. They banned us pretty quickly.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 3:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:


Maybe I should go to a NeoNazi website to tell them how stupid they all are because that'd make me feel good... hmmm, never tried that....


A friend and I briefly trolled the Stormwatch forum by creating an persona who claimed to be albino, and denigrated everyone there for not being white enough. They banned us pretty quick.



This sounds highly entertaining. If it weren't for the fact it's pretty easy to figure out where a board invasion is coming from, and that we'd get a bunch of Stormfront retaliation that would make the whole website look bad and unnerve the normals on general chat, I'd say let's do it and document the results.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 4:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Based on our military, financial, pollution, spy-network, and media impact on the world, I would say we are the current Heart of Darkness. "

Greenhouse-gas emission targets for limiting global warming to 2°C 30 April 2009
1,440 Gt CO2
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v458/n7242/full/nature08017.html

Global carbon emissions grew more slowly in 2012. But will they ever decline?
Worldwide carbon-dioxide emissions rose to yet another record high last year — some 34.5 billion tonnes (which the WP mistakenly called tons) from fossil fuels and cement production.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/11/01/global-carb
on-emissions-grew-more-slowly-in-2012-will-they-ever-decline/

Since the paper was published in 2009, we've used up about 136 Gt of our total allotment, leaving us about 1304 Gt.

There seems to be a consensus here that Germany's per capita CO2 emissions are both do-able and comfortable.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57289

Trends in global CO2 emissions; 2012 Report
Germany 10.0 tons per capita
http://www.pbl.nl/en/publications/2012/trends-in-global-co2-emissions-
2012-report

http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
7.2B



At 7.2 billion people on the planet and 10.0 tons per capita emissions as a goal, total emissions are 72B tons per year, or 65 Gt per year (almost double current emissions).

At that rate we have 20 years before we release enough CO2 to have reached maximum CO2 limits to have a 50% chance of keeping global warming under 2°C. Additionally, there are other greenhouse gases, and black carbon adds significantly to global warming, reducing the 20 year limit at a 10 ton annual per capita rate.



Therefore, the per capita goal of 10 tons per person, as exemplified by Germany, is not a sustainable emission rate.


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Saturday, February 8, 2014 5:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Thread isn't about global warming, 1kiki.

DING!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 6:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


There was another thread that was suggested here (but not started) re the US as the nexus of evil. One of our worst evils is the amount of pollution we (the US) cause not just as a country on our own behalf, but globally as a driver of global capitalism. I highlighted CO2.

So I thought I'd try to find a global perspective on survivable CO2 emissions. In effect, to find a global range for the evil we cause. 10 tons per person per year, a goal that was suggested we should meet 'eventually', isn't outside of the range of fatally evil.

But maybe you don't like broad-scale, long-term perspectives?

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 6:25 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:


Magons, you're confusing people looking at what works elsewhere and the ABILITY TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING. Bear in mind our ACA is a bastardization of many things, because that's all that could be achieved, given our present government (which, as Oonj points out so aptly, is no longer "representative"). Look at how long we've been trying to get ANYTHING changed, and the political mess that's resulted from even getting the ACA!


Yeah really I have no idea of how the ACA was conceived, apart from it appeared to be a rather unsatisfactory compromise to keep some rather large medical insurance businesses happy. I guess I was referring to the debate, if you can call it that, around public health care which constantly seems to be filled with a) incredulity that it could ever be done b) a conviction that it would lead to a state of tyranny DESPITE the fact that lots of the rest of the world manages it with various degrees of success.

ANother point, no system will ever be perfect, ever. You just have some that work better than others.

And in reply to rappy, re that 'We kicked the nazis asses' that's nearly 70 years ago. The generation that felt gratitude to the Americans, my parents, are dead.

Also signy has a point. The efforts of the Americans have been largely distorted by Hollywood. The war on the eastern front dwarfs the war on the western front in terms of casualties and ferocity. It makes the war that the Americans/australians/brits/canadians/europeans fought look like a kids playground stoush.

Also
hu·bris
[hyoo-bris, hoo-]
noun
excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance.




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Saturday, February 8, 2014 7:39 PM

OONJERAH



As long as we're clarifying, I said, "My country hasn't
been in this much trouble since the Great Depression, &
maybe not then." GD from 1929 til our WWII economy
kicked in? ... early 1940's. "Speakin' of the 1930s, policies
of pessimism & negativity were Not what got us thru that."

Wiki: "The Great Depression was a severe worldwide economic depression
in the decade preceding World War II. The timing of the Great Depression
varied across nations, but in most countries it started in 1930 and lasted
until the late 1930s or middle 1940s. It was the longest, deepest, and
most widespread depression of the 20th century."

All because of our local stock market crash? I've never
heard that ours was the Crash heard Round the World!! ... Bummer!

Wiki: "In most countries of the world, recovery from the Great Depression
began in 1933. In the U.S., recovery began in early 1933, but the U.S.
did not return to 1929 GNP for over a decade and still had an unemploy-
ment rate of about 15% in 1940 ...
"The common view among most economists is that Roosevelt's New Deal
policies either caused or accelerated the recovery, although his policies
were never aggressive enough to bring the economy completely out of
recession. ...
"Many economists believe that government spending on the war caused
or at least accelerated recovery from the Great Depression, though
some consider that it did not play a very large role in the recovery.
It did help in reducing unemployment."

I rather thought our Pioneering spirit, the will to work,
& other excellent attitudes got us thru it. Many people
gave most of the credit to Franklin D. Roosevelt. Perhaps
it was great Leadership that got us thru it, more than the
strength & courage of the common people.

I was probably aiming at a comparison of American Attitudes
in the '30s vs our Attitudes since the turn of this century and
especially since the economic crash of 2008. One attitude I
forgot to mention, and we had it in spades since the Colonial
era, Self-Sufficiency!!

Self-Sufficiency.



====================== :>
All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. ~Paul Simon

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:06 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


How can people be self-sufficient?

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:17 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
How can people be self-sufficient?


I guess, in the literal sense, it has sort of a Lone Gunmen feel to it, huh?





Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:24 PM

OONJERAH



Since I see that as a trick question, I'll just say
Farming, for example.

Self-sufficiency - Ingenuity go hand in hand.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, that was my first thought. But most people live in cities and farming isn't an option for them, short of moving out into a rural area and squatting on someone else's property. I don't see farming as a general solution for most. Since I ran into a wall pretty quickly, I was wondering what you were thinking.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:14 PM

OONJERAH



Farming: just 1 example.

I was thinking of the pioneering days, mountain men days,
& such. (Not a Lone gunman.) Communities that worked
together to create what they needed: shelter, food, cloth-
ing, transportation. Often, necessity was the Mother of
Invention.

Now, with 90% of US living urban, it's a little different.
Property. Most the places that you could work for yourself
are owned by someone. To work for wages, one has to ask
someone else for a job. But don't some function without
wages? Using barter.

And then, there's the huge frontier of the Internet where
many folks go offer goods or services.

If you are handy and can make things of value, marketing
opportunities are numerous.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I appreciate your answer.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


As I think about it more, it looks like you posit an answer where a group of people are smart enough to know that honest cooperation is the key to personal survival - ie - you don't do well by trying to screw the people you are depending on.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:59 PM

OONJERAH



Yeah, that's part of it. Has been known to work.
Do you think the idea is too outmoded, out of style?

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 10:23 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
you don't do well by trying to screw the people you are depending on.
A concept lost on most these days.
But then the Paul Ryans of this world do not depend on people. They live off the government.
Welfare for the stupid but connected.
Welfare is good for rich or extremely well-to-do folk, but abhorrent for lesser Humans.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 10:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Yeah, that's part of it. Has been known to work.
Do you think the idea is too outmoded, out of style?


Might this be an example of what you're talking about ?

" We must keep the streets of our city open for the delivery of food supplies, war materials, and readily accessible for our fire department. Therefore, I am appealing to the people of this city to volunteer in assisting us to keep open the sewer basins located at every street intersection and also to keep the crosswalks in as good condition as possible for the pedestrians. And we are also appealing to volunteers, volunteers who will be willing to do a little snow shoveling right in their own block." - NYC Mayor Laguardia - 1943

" Stay indoors to the maximum extent possible. Stay out of your cars to the maximum extent possible. Don't go out. We want to make sure people are safe. We want 'em to be in a warm location -- and, crucially, we want to keep our streets clear so the good men and women of the sanitation department can ensure that our streets are plowed and salted. It's very important people get home as soon as possible tonight. Get to a safe, warm place. Stay off the streets." - NYC Mayor De Blasio, 2014

Get out, lend a hand, and help out vs Stay indoors, do nothing, and let US take care of it all.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 10:50 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Auraptor: "Might this be an example of what you're talking about ?"

No.
. .. ..Laguardia's plea is for city maintenance by willing citizens: Civic pride.

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 10:52 PM

CHRISISALL


I'm thinking of getting into politics so I can live off other people's money. And the stupid drones out there won't call my pay 'welfare'. I can do nothing of much value, goof off, shut down the government for fun, get laid at conventions, all of it.
And the common man will assume I'm working for a living (well, in my chosen 'side' that is- the other side will lambaste me for every bathroom break, but that's a given).

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Saturday, February 8, 2014 10:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Quote Auraptor: "Might this be an example of what you're talking about ?"

No.
. .. ..Laguardia's plea is for city maintenance by willing citizens: Civic pride.


Well, that seems to have gone out of style as well.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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