Change you were dumb enough to believe in by 6ixStringJack

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
According to Eric Holder, if your INTENT is to torture, then it's torture. Our intent was to extract info...

What other reasons are there to torture other than to extract information?

You're doing that thing again where you justify yourself by comparing yourself favourably to terrorists - when you torture you try not to cause lasting damage, and you'll only torture for information, not for fun. Congratulations, you're better than the terrorists.

Heads should roll

I'm not doing anything, but repeating what Obama's own A.G. said. Hell, i quoted him before, so tell me how that justifies me by "comparing " me to the terrorist ? They don't torture to get info, they do it to inflict pain, and then they KILL you.

Yes. we're far, FAR better than the terrorist. At Gitmo, they're served 3 square meals a day ( so much food, they gained 15-20 lbs ), got clean, fluffy prayer rugs, crisp new Korans to pray with, and recess to run and play on the sand, once a day. Our guys ? Got their fingers broken, burned, stabbed, before being gutted and other things too unmentionable done to them. This phony indignation over non existent torture done by our guys is a colossal waste of time.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 2:39 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Yes. we're far, FAR better than the terrorist.

I already congratulated you.

And I was just pointing out that in your mind you're not responding to the question 'what is torture?' - you're just drawing as many distinctions as you can between what we do and what the terrorists do. Okay ours and the terrorists' actions are different - but newsflash; that doesn't mean both aren't torture.

Quote:
This phony indignation

It's not all phony.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 2:54 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

kwickie

Again, you've posted a reply with out saying a damn thing. I've asked you to cite where Cheney lied, you didn't. I gave you proof that settled the matter of whether we 'tortured' or not, you ignored that too. WTF is the point of this board if all you're going to do is act like Whozit and blurt back nonsensical, irrelevant replies that don't come close to addressing ANYTHING being discussed ?

rappie

Again, you've posted a reply without saying a damn thing. You've asked me to cite where Cheney lied; I did. I gave you proof that settled the matter of whether he lied or not; you ignored that. You've offered no "proof" of anything, only your lame, weak-kneed opinions, and opinions from others that agree with yours. WTF is the point of this board if you're never going to learn ANYTHING, but only keep blurting out more of your ever-growing list of RapFacts™, which have been shown time and time again to be nothing but utter bullshit, pure lies, useless partisan crap?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
According to Eric Holder, if your INTENT is to torture, then it's torture. Our intent was to extract info...

What other reasons are there to torture other than to extract information?

You're doing that thing again where you justify yourself by comparing yourself favourably to terrorists - when you torture you try not to cause lasting damage, and you'll only torture for information, not for fun. Congratulations, you're better than the terrorists.

Heads should roll

Even that "try not to cause lasting damage" bit is pure horseshit. By that rationale, I can break your fingers, your arms, your legs... I can pull out your fingernails or push bamboo shoots under them, all without causing "lasting damage". Are none of those things "torture" now?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:03 PM

Quote:

Yes. we're far, FAR better than the terrorist.

Which one?

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:45 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
rappie

Again, you've posted a reply without saying a damn thing. You've asked me to cite where Cheney lied; I did.

You did no such thing. You posted nonsensical bullshit, and you KNOW it.

August 26, 2002: Cheney spoke to a the 103rd national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, where he stated unequivocally, "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

Simply stated, there is now no doubt that Saddam indeed DID NOT have weapons of mass destruction as Cheney claimed.

There is NO evidence Cheney KNEW Saddam had no WMD. You know this. There was NO DOUBT of this....

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
, from multiple Intel sources. Everyone knows this, but because of your partisan BULLSHIT for brains, you continue this lie that Bush / Cheney magically knew what everyone else didn't, and still went along w/ the war.

You're a idiot. Now knock it the hell off

I grew tired of this pointless game,long ago. I refuse to waste time when you're doing nothing but trolling.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:50 PM

Quote:
You're a idiot.

Classic!

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:57 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
You're a idiot.

Classic!

Too gutless to even deal w/ the facts, all you can do is to continue to troll.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
You're a idiot.

Classic!

Too gutless to even deal w/ the facts, all you can do is to continue to troll.

Whatever, AuTrollster. I thought you weren't playing anymore. Guess I made a liar out of you yet again, eh?

Here's a fact for you to deal with, ya troll:

Take a look at Troll Country, and see which of the two of us has more threads moved there.

Or are you too gutless to take that challenge?

Yeah, I thought so.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:55 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

As I said before:

"...It's the difference between inventing a lie and selling it, and believing a lie and repeating it. Only one of these makes you a liar..."

As for the 1998 Pelosi quote, did she even say anything incorrect there?

Heads should roll

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:57 AM

Quote:

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

Actually, this is 100% accurate. We DO know that Saddam historically HAS STORED secret supplies of weapons - did you already forget the first Gulf War, rappie? We found and destroyed those weapons.

Saying that he has done this (implying that he has done it in the past) is a far cry from saying "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:29 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Too gutless to even deal w/ the facts, all you can do is to continue to troll.

You forgot to have citations. You need to back up every single word with citations, direct quotes, eyewitness testimony, and a Papal decree.

That way they can respond with "LIAR" and "IDIOT" and without making use of any facts or reason.

Facts and reason don't work for them. They need emotion, name calling, and blind hatred. Those are the tools of todays liberal intellectual discussion.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:51 AM

Quote:
They need emotion, name calling, and blind hatred. Those are the tools of todays liberal intellectual discussion.

Now THAT is truly funny. Unintended irony, I'm sure.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:24 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
kpo - if Cheney is a liar, then so are Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, George Tenet, and countless others.

That's right. You think you can have power in this country without being a liar?

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:37 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

And here's another quote you missed off your list Rap:

"Does he have dangerous assets? More so than we thought. More so than we ever wanted to believe.

And does he have an ongoing, consistent program and plan to acquire, to enhance those evil assets that are described by weapons -- by the term weapons of mass destruction? Beyond what any of us imagined. The acquisition of the weaponry, the resources, the resourcefulness, the ability to put together the device that would destroy hundreds of thousands in a fell swoop has never been even mitigated against by the commitments he made to the U.N. 11 years ago.

Can he strike our interests, our citizens, our land and our responsibilities with them? Irrefutably, yes. Now."
--Dick Armey, October 2002

And here's the story behind Armey giving this speech:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/09/cheney-lied.html

Heads should roll

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

HERO: FACTS. Please read this time.

www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/53802.html

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Lives saved.

Attacks diverted.

Details please? Oh, that's right- they're classified.
As in: MADE-UP.
You pointless precursor to putrid puss-suckers.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
If Cheney is a liar, then so are Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, George Tenet, and countless others.

Including George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Feith, John Bolton, Alberto Gonzalez, John Ashcroft, John Yoo, Jay Bybee, and countless others.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:44 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
HERO: FACTS. Please read this time.

www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/53802.html

I did read it. Like I said, the counter argument that you are using stops the inquiry at the use of subprime loans in the 2001-2007 period. Thats fine analysis as far as it goes, but it fails to address the question of how and why did subprime loans come into existence.

They came into existence because of the lending rule changes that took place in the 1990s. In the old days they loan you money, you pay it back plus interest, they make money (on the interest)The established method for long term profit was weakened when the very real prospect of no return on investment was forced onto the market.

Lenders had to ask themselves, 'how can we make money under the new rules'?

Subprime loans became the answer. It guarranteed a return on the capital investment in the short term by allowing them to make the loans, then package and sell them. Another benefit was that the housing bubble meant the houses would increase in value compared to the loan.

So here you have a bank that has to lend to people it KNOWS can't pay them back. So they give them an even BETTER deal, a subprime loan.

This accellerates the default process allowing a recoup on the investment when suddenly the loan defaults and they have an asset (house) potentially worth MORE then the original loan. That makes the loan valuable, which means the lender can package and sell it and make money...short term. The buyers make money too...on the asset...only the bubble popped leaving them holding devalued assets. Enter another rule change (this was a couple years back, I forget when but it was after '06)...banks can no longer count the value of the asset on their books.

Now they are out money AND holding valueless (for credit purposes) assets. At that point things went downhill very fast and a lot of people who set this all up were suddenly ready to retire.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
lending rule changes that took place in the 1990s.

I ask again: Which ones? Show me the regulations. All you have pointed to is a relaxation of rules governing Fannie and Freddie's mortgage purchases. And Fannie and Freddie can't "force" ANY instution to write mortgages. But I guarantee you that subprimes were around long before that.

Quote:
In 1980 Congress adopted the Depository Institutions Deregulatory and Monetary Control Act, which eliminated interest-rate caps and made sub-prime lending more feasible for lenders.. Under Reagan the federal government slashed funding for low-income housing, and allowed the FHA, once a key player helping working-class families purchase a home, to drift into irrelevancy. Into this vacuum stepped banks, mortgage lenders, and scam artists, looking for ways to make big profits from consumers desperate for the American Dream of homeownership. They invented new "loan products" that put borrowers at risk. Thus was born the sub-prime market.

www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_conservative_origins_of_the_s
ubprime_mortgage_crisis

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I ask again: Which ones?

THEM ones- duhhhhhhh.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:13 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Lives saved.

Attacks diverted.

Details please? Oh, that's right- they're classified.
As in: MADE-UP.
You pointless precursor to putrid puss-suckers.

The laughing Chrisisall

No, not "made up", just held by Obama, who refuses to release anything but select, cherry picked items.

Gee, wonder why.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Lives saved.

Attacks diverted.

Details please? Oh, that's right- they're classified.
As in: MADE-UP.
You pointless precursor to putrid puss-suckers.

The laughing Chrisisall

No, not "made up", just held by Obama, who refuses to release anything but select, cherry picked items.

Gee, wonder why.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

Maybe he's claiming "executive privilege" or some such ludicrous thing.

I can't imagine where he got the idea that he could release whatever he wants to, and classify whatever else he wants to. How could a person get such an idea?

Of course, since they haven't been released, you claiming to know anything about what they actually say really IS just you making shit up.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Of course, since they haven't been released, you claiming to know anything about what they actually say really IS just you making shit up.

*And AURappy falls, is he down for the count? Can he survive the intellectual pummeling??
Is he too stupid to withdraw???*

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:03 PM

America loves a winner!

I believe Cheney before I believe Obama.

An thanks for immortalizing me w/ a quote. You truly are an idiot. And it shows.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I believe Cheney before I believe Obama.

Because you believe in force. You respected your Daddy's spanking more than your Mother's wisdom, it seems.*

*Any similarity between this heinous personal attack and any real situations is purely coincidental.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:56 PM

Quote:
An thanks for immortalizing me w/ a quote. You truly are an idiot. And it shows.

Don't you mean "a idiot"?

Actually, the quote shows YOUR idiocy. But you're too much an idiot to figure that out, aren't you?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
But you're too much an idiot to figure that out, aren't you?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:52 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I believe Cheney before I believe Obama.

Because you believe in force. You respected your Daddy's spanking more than your Mother's wisdom, it seems.*

The laughing Chrisisall

Peace through strength has averted more wars than " peace in our time " appeasement.

Kwickie - You're AN moran.

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Kwickie - You're AN moran.

Okay- THAT was funny.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Peace through strength has averted more wars than " peace in our time " appeasement.

Bullshit, it CREATES wars by requiring justification for the military buildup, needlessly provokes and leads to the "if you have a hammer..." philosophy of problem solving, which has got us neck deep in twin disasters in the middle east, NEITHER of which were necessary, or even *possible* by throwing a 2nd Gen army at 4th Gen warfare.

The days of epic scale gotterdamerung battles and human wave glory charges shoulder to shoulder, are OVER - they've BEEN over for fifty fuckin years, but we still have an army that trains to dress right after musket volleys and needs their goddamn hand held over the radio every step of the way cause god forbid they show one ounce of initiative and ruin their careers, oh noes...

You know what most of special forces training is ?
UN-training that do-nothing-without-explicit-orders stupidity drummed into em in BASIC!

One thing the movie Blackhawk Down got right, once you cut radio comm, US Army units just kinda mill around in total confusion, easy prey for a motivated and autonomous opponent.

Thankfully, not ALL commanders are complete idiots - that very initiative and self-reliance which otherwise made me wholly unsuitable for military service, one particular CO found a need for - see, I had this tendency to actually go and DO something appropriate to the situation instead of standing around with my head up my ass like everydamnbody else in the company, whether some NCO was there to supervise or not, there's ALWAYS something useful to do, and I mean *useful*, not bullshit detail to waste time while real work goes undone.

Anyhows, they needed someone capable of even more autonomy than an artillery spotter, cause due to Kolchuga and RDF, radio contact was suicide.
My job woulda been getting food supply to units where resupply by air was either impossible or would needlessly reveal their position - so I got a truck full of MREs, a full tank of gas, a map with "there were somewhere around here, sorta, last time we checked", and a vietnam relic M16 with a shot out bore and dangerously worn action which got tossed behind the seat first thing, cause I couldn't see any situation where I might NEED the damn thing that running someone over with the freakin truck wouldn't solve quicker - trust me, you would NOT wanna be in a technical that caught the front end of a deuce n a half at 30+mph, you just wouldn't...

So they needed someone they could hand the goods, the mission, and then wave fare-thee-well and expect the job to actually get DONE, and couldn't up till that point find anyone, cause anyone who could do that would have been either co opted into airborne or spec forces, or someone so damn unsuitable for service otherwise they'd likely spend more time in the brig than on the field.

Heh, I once got "detailed" to the freakin PX video arcade with a roll of quarters and an MP who was ordered to NOT LET ME LEAVE till 18:00hours, by a captain so irate with me re-organising his time-waster details to actually get the job done in a reasonable amount of time, contrary to his purpose, and since he couldn't ADMIT that, military tradition and all, he borrowed an MP sergeant and stuck me with a bullshit detail to keep me outta the way, one he KNEW I wouldn't raise too much a fuss about.

Same damn captain two months later, sent me down to the pistol range to expend a significant amount of pistol ammunition under the laughable pretense that it was nearing it's expiration date and that would make it unsafe to have in the company armory...

Anyhows, we desperately NEED to retrofit our military for 4th Gen warfare, or even better, for once think AHEAD instead of resting on past glory.

"Strength" comes in many forms, and while numbers count for something, skill and tactics count for more, and despite our techno toy advantage, our infantry is at a serious DIS-advantage in the current combat environment, one made all the worse by focusing on physical strength and endurance at the expense of weapon skill, and armor and more armor at the expense of speed and mobility - the idea is NOT TO GET HIT, not be a damn tank, that's what the freakin Abrams is for.

For house to house CQB I'd never wear anything more than class-II, IF that, and by preference would use a pistol or submachinegun, myself, especially if I was facing lumbering fools weighted down with eighty pounds of armor and gear, trying to drag a goddamn RIFLE, however short, into a CQB fight.

And it's these little stupidities, multiplied all the way up the line at every single step, which are causing us needless casualties in a war our army was never set up to fight in the first damn place.

Hell, if I ever had to go head to head with an army unit, first thing I would do is shoot the damn radio from 150+ yards and then make em chase me till they get good and tired dragging all that shit, then call in some arty when they're so blown out they can't run no more.

Which, from various after-actions I've read, is an all too common, and all too effective, tactic used against us over there.

We need a SMARTER army, not a bigger one.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:52 PM