Quote:

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:

The title of this thread is "Is this really the lowest
point in our nation’s history that they can remember"?

Should the forum have a thread about "How Men &
Women can Communicate Honestly about Sex" ?

I suspect that objectivity on the topic may be difficult
for those who want more sex than they get and also for
those who are in a long-term, couple relationship that
isn't working so well anymore.

I'll be 75 this week. Still I am often confused by the
signals I get from men.


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
6IXSTRINGJACK, "Happy B-Day, OONJ. Hope your 70's have been treating you well. :)"

Thanks, Jack.

Well, I'm more tired & unwilling now; but was pretty lazy even before.
Memory was always spotty. But mostly, my moods are better.

Marriage ... no, I was never married. But most of my life, I hoped to
fall in love and live with a mate. Men are good for a lot of things, &
today, I had to ask a neighbor to help me with the plumbing. I've known
a few married couples who chose not to have kids; you can do that, you
know.

What I have noticed the last couple of years is my self-acceptance finally
kicked in & I feel better emotionally than ever before.


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Thank you, G.

Speaking of Bigfoot, I visited Bigfoot Forums last night.
I rarely go there anymore.
To me, Bigfoot is real, & not much to say about that anymore.

But how is it that we know they exist ... & the gubmint still won't
admit it. Up to about 1975, they did admit it. Sorta.

As for my birthday ... I should treat myself to a movie.
Is the new Thor movie any good?


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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are you quoting wiki to avoid honest discussion and just dance around inconveniently truthful definitions?

I don't see mention of urinating in public, or the complainant (victim) touching via body part OR Object intimate parts of the defendant. Both defined as Sexual Assault, although different States have different statutes.

And still dancing, kissing, hugging, massage, fully clothed is Sexual Assault, even consensual if the "victim" is the wrong age.

In what cases are Sexual Assaults charged or prosecuted by the United States Department of Justice, instead of the Local or State Prosecutor? Otherwise the DoJ definition has no meaning or application - only the Local laws actually enforced. - JSF

*****
Convicted? No. Admitted? Yes.
Nobody just accused these men and got believe and counted. These men ADMITTED what they'd done. And if they had admitted this in the presence of the police instead of researchers, they would have been found guilty.- KIKI

No. Nobody asked 20.4 million men and had 2.1 million men admit to researchers that they were guilty of sexual assault. - SIX

Now, since these men ADMITTED what they'd done, and I suspect men would be less likely to admit to it than not, the numbers are probably higher.- KIKI

If anybody quizzed 20.4 million men on the subject and 2.1 million of them had been stupid enough to admit that they had committed sexual assault, I would have to agree with you. But because that's not the case here at all..... nope.- SIX

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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are you quoting wiki to avoid honest discussion and just dance around inconveniently truthful definitions?

I don't see mention of urinating in public, or the complainant (victim) touching via body part OR Object intimate parts of the defendant. Both defined as Sexual Assault, although different States have different statutes.

And still dancing, kissing, hugging, massage, fully clothed is Sexual Assault, even consensual if the "victim" is the wrong age.

In what cases are Sexual Assaults charged or prosecuted by the United States Department of Justice, instead of the Local or State Prosecutor? Otherwise the DoJ definition has no meaning or application - only the Local laws actually enforced. - JSF

*****
Convicted? No. Admitted? Yes.
Nobody just accused these men and got believe and counted. These men ADMITTED what they'd done. And if they had admitted this in the presence of the police instead of researchers, they would have been found guilty.- KIKI

No. Nobody asked 20.4 million men and had 2.1 million men admit to researchers that they were guilty of sexual assault. - SIX

Now, since these men ADMITTED what they'd done, and I suspect men would be less likely to admit to it than not, the numbers are probably higher.- KIKI

If anybody quizzed 20.4 million men on the subject and 2.1 million of them had been stupid enough to admit that they had committed sexual assault, I would have to agree with you. But because that's not the case here at all..... nope.- SIX

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SIX, there IS such as thing as statistical sampling. I know that it can be subject to abuse, and it can only provide an estimate (look at Hillary's polling) but it would be very difficult to conjure up a 13+% value out of near-zero. Rape and sexual assault .... respondents would want to hide those behaviors, don't you think?

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At one point, a guy hits on Kimmy by offering her a consent contract. This is an obvious nod to California's 2014 "yes means yes" law, which conservative pundits mocked as a prime example of liberal overreach, envisioning college students signing contracts before agreeing to go down on one another. Of course, that's not what the law actually entailed, but apparently the show's writers thought the concept of a dude asking a woman if it's OK to have sex with her was comedic gold.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Meh... take your time. I'm going to be getting ready for my job orientation and won't be around till tonight. :)

I used to have a lot of problems losing posts here. I've noticed it hasn't happened for a very long time. I think it's because Firefox does a great job of keeping post data these days.

What browser do you use?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Meh... everybody has their own favorite. I've been using Firefox now for probably at least 15 years now and I love it. I never saw the need to change. There might be things I'm missing out on, but if Firefox can't do it I've yet to find something I wanted to make it do that I couldn't find an add-on for.

I never liked Internet Explorer, and Edge doesn't seem to be any better.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Here's a test for you:
Open new tabs by selecting threads, but "open in a new tab"
Like 20 or 50 tabs all at once. Then close all but one.
Open another 20 to 50 threads, in new tabs.
Repeat this until your browser crashes, noting how many you could do.
Windows Virus would normally crash on n the first 20-50. Firefox/Mozilla would you oft last for 1 or 2 hundred.
Opera went for thousands, I never can make it crash.
If text thread don't crash your browser, go for graphics. Like a photo album, with links not on the same server. Or else pron, there are often lots of linkys to other videos/images.

I never needed an "add-on". Opera just works.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Meh... everybody has their own favorite. I've been using Firefox now for probably at least 15 years now and I love it. I never saw the need to change. There might be things I'm missing out on, but if Firefox can't do it I've yet to find something I wanted to make it do that I couldn't find an add-on for.

I never liked Internet Explorer, and Edge doesn't seem to be any better.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Opera is the Free high speed browser on a data diet. Fastest, most durable and resilient, very small file size, and wastes the least RAM.

Here's a test for you:
Open new tabs by selecting threads, but "open in a new tab"
Like 20 or 50 tabs all at once. Then close all but one.
Open another 20 to 50 threads, in new tabs.
Repeat this until your browser crashes, noting how many you could do.
Windows Virus would normally crash on n the first 20-50. Firefox/Mozilla would you oft last for 1 or 2 hundred.
Opera went for thousands, I never can make it crash.
If text thread don't crash your browser, go for graphics. Like a photo album, with links not on the same server. Or else pron, there are often lots of linkys to other videos/images.

I never needed an "add-on". Opera just works.

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Just FYI I run the Debian distribution of Firefox, on a Debian Linux OS. I also have NoScript and SecurityBadger running on top of that.

Generally speaking, the problems that I have are either with the windowing GUI or with NoScript clobbering certain scripts running on the page; but in THIS case it was Spectrum (formerly Time Warner Cable/ TMC) which stopped being able to find the fff.net server. So what I got was an error from their DNS whem I tried to post my reply, giving me a series of options asking me WHICH website was I looking for?

Not a computer expert here, but it seems to me that Haken's server took too long to reply and the DNS didn't know what to do next. Anyway, it looks like the error overwrote what I had written and I couldn't just backspace to the page. What I really should do, if I want to write something long, is just write it out in gedit (text editor) and copy-paste it here. Just my uninformed $0.02.

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SIX, there IS such as thing as statistical sampling. I know that it can be subject to abuse, and it can only provide an estimate (look at Hillary's polling) but it would be very difficult to conjure up a 13+% value out of near-zero. Rape and sexual assault .... respondents would want to hide those behaviors, don't you think?- SIGNY

Yes. I do think. I've asked Kiki to show me the questions asked. I'm going to go right ahead and assume that the questions in this study were as convoluted as your average ethics test given when applying for a job. Tests that I've stated on several occasions that I am VERY bad at. Which leads me to wonder how many questions were answered "wrong" simply because somebody was overthinking it.- SIX

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First and foremost though, is how the statistics are presented to the general public by the MSM. They constantly throw in Rape with Sexual Assault, and do very little to distinguish the two. You can't deny that whenever these statistics are shown to the public, the emphasis on RAPE is key, and disingenuously inflates the belief that rape is far more prevalent than it actually is.

This is an even larger problem since almost anything these days can be considered sexual assault.- SIX

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I don't know what's going on with you two (SIX, JSF). Why is it so hard for you to accept that a significant minority of men are pigs? Is it because YOU'VE never done any such thing in the past? - SIGNY

I don't accept it because I don't believe it's true.- SIX

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Do you feel that women are making too much of a fuss about too little? Or that if women gain protections in this area, that you'll somehow be attacked?- SIGNY

I believe that the government and the MSM are making too much out of too little.- SIX

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I've also given potential reasons why this is happening.- SIX

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A possible consequence of this...
As I stated above, I believe that a lot of men are going to opt-out of relationships and interactions with women altogether. For this and several of the other reasons I've talked about earlier in this thread.
This is already happening (see the MGTOW movement).
And my question to anybody who doesn't see where I'm coming from here is simple.
When men in large quantities start to opt-out of even attempting relationships with women, who is the more likely group to do so? The super-charged sex-tyrannosaurus types? Or the guys who weren't ever going to do any of this in the first place?- SIX

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

One of the constant features of these cases of alleged (and proven) sexual abuse is the sheer number of women who are being assaulted over years and years with no reports being generated. Look at the nymber of girl Olympic gymnasts who were being raped by the team doctor, or the number of women allegedly abused by Weinstein, or Bill Cosby. In some ways, this is akin to the Sandusky crimes. How many children were abused over how many years? What is wrong with our system that this can go on for so long with nobody noticing? Part of the problem is that if you have a differential in age or power, the victims can be intimidated; part of the problem is that the crime happens in private; part of the problem is that it is being enabled by people close to the criminal. This is like what happened in my workplace (before significant protections were enacted) where there was one supervisor who made my work life an living hell for 5 years; I thought I was the only one but 20-40 years later I learned that he victimized many others. Multiple omplaints come out when one brave person complains first.

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Quote:

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One of the constant features of these cases of alleged (and proven) sexual abuse is the sheer number of women who are being assaulted over years and years with no reports being generated. Look at the nymber of girl Olympic gymnasts who were being raped by the team doctor, or the number of women allegedly abused by Weinstein, or Bill Cosby. In some ways, this is akin to the Sandusky crimes. How many children were abused over how many years? What is wrong with our system that this can go on for so long with nobody noticing? Part of the problem is that if you have a differential in age or power, the victims can be intimidated; part of the problem is that the crime happens in private; part of the problem is that it is being enabled by people close to the criminal. This is like what happened in my workplace (before significant protections were enacted) where there was one supervisor who made my work life an living hell for 5 years; I thought I was the only one but 20-40 years later I learned that he victimized many others. Multiple omplaints come out when one brave person complains first.- SIGNY

Just like Roy Moore - right?- GSTRING

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Meh... everybody has their own favorite. I've been using Firefox now for probably at least 15 years now and I love it. I never saw the need to change. There might be things I'm missing out on, but if Firefox can't do it I've yet to find something I wanted to make it do that I couldn't find an add-on for.

I never liked Internet Explorer, and Edge doesn't seem to be any better.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Opera is the Free high speed browser on a data diet. Fastest, most durable and resilient, very small file size, and wastes the least RAM.

Here's a test for you:
Open new tabs by selecting threads, but "open in a new tab"
Like 20 or 50 tabs all at once. Then close all but one.
Open another 20 to 50 threads, in new tabs.
Repeat this until your browser crashes, noting how many you could do.
Windows Virus would normally crash on n the first 20-50. Firefox/Mozilla would you oft last for 1 or 2 hundred.
Opera went for thousands, I never can make it crash.
If text thread don't crash your browser, go for graphics. Like a photo album, with links not on the same server. Or else pron, there are often lots of linkys to other videos/images.

I never needed an "add-on". Opera just works.

---

You're probably right. I have had firefox crash on me on occasion when I have a lot of tabs open, usually when my computer has been on for days at a time. I won't say that I've never had more than 50 tabs open at a time, but at that point I was getting a bit carried away and/or lazy and figured I had the crash coming to me.

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Can you download videos off of youtube and double click on any image and have the images automatically downloaded to the folder you specify for them? These are the only add-ons that I can think I've ever needed, although there's probably thousands more.

I'm not a fanboy or anything, and I'm not trying to convert you. You're obviously very attached to Opera.

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I'm just not big on change myself, unless whatever I'm doing is personally impacting me in a negative way. Windows 10 is making me switch to Linux finally. Maybe the new Firefox Quantum will be even better than it was, or maybe it will force me to try another browser.

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Just FYI I run the Debian distribution of Firefox, on a Debian Linux OS. I also have NoScript and SecurityBadger running on top of that.

Not a computer expert here, but it seems to me that Haken's server took too long to reply and the DNS didn't know what to do next. Anyway, it looks like the error overwrote what I had written and I couldn't just backspace to the page. What I really should do, if I want to write something long, is just write it out in gedit (text editor) and copy-paste it here. Just my uninformed $0.02.

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I hate the solution of backing up things on a text document, but I've done that before even for posts on this site. I used to have a ton of problems with losing posts here and when I got back to the page they were gone. Firefox could completely crash, but when I restart it the tab comes back up and all of my text is still there.

Have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling Firefox? Maybe give Opera a shot too if that doesn't work.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Meh... If it bothered me enough to do something about it, I would have. I'm obviously not the type to "be a slave" to anything, let alone my computer. I think you might be being a tad melodramatic here.

At the end of the day I get done whatever I'm looking to get done. I don't really care about security since I'm not doing anything that I'd really care if anybody gets their hands on, and if somebody steals my credit info somehow I'm not on the hook for anything that happens with it.

Firefox does what I need it to do just fine. If I have to close it down every few days it's really not much of a bother. It's certainly not enough to get me to learn how to use another program that does the same thing.


Windows 10, on the other hand, is making me make the switch to Linux. Not because of any security flaws or failures. But because they're dumbing it down so much for the masses that some actual useful tools that were taken for granted are either gone or just don't work well anymore. Hell... Deleting a folder with a lot of files can now take ages to accomplish. This should be a 3 second ordeal. I don't know what they were thinking.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, here is the response that I had written before. I may not get back to this site for a while; if I'm really good I should be very busy for the next few months (at least six months, but I doubt my good intentions will last that long!)

Quote:

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SIX, there IS such as thing as statistical sampling. I know that it can be subject to abuse, and it can only provide an estimate (look at Hillary's polling) but it would be very difficult to conjure up a 13+% value out of near-zero. Rape and sexual assault .... respondents would want to hide those behaviors, don't you think?- SIGNY

Yes. I do think. I've asked Kiki to show me the questions asked. I'm going to go right ahead and assume that the questions in this study were as convoluted as your average ethics test given when applying for a job. Tests that I've stated on several occasions that I am VERY bad at. Which leads me to wonder how many questions were answered "wrong" simply because somebody was overthinking it.- SIX

---

Usually, questions in this kind of survey aren't asked like "did you rape someone?" They usually ask about very specific behaviors:
Did you have sex with someone who was too drunk to stand up?
Did you touch someone's genitals without permission?

That's one of the ways that these surveys get around the problem of vague questions and/or the use of "trigger" words; but it may or may not apply in this case.

Quote:

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First and foremost though, is how the statistics are presented to the general public by the MSM. They constantly throw in Rape with Sexual Assault, and do very little to distinguish the two. You can't deny that whenever these statistics are shown to the public, the emphasis on RAPE is key, and disingenuously inflates the belief that rape is far more prevalent than it actually is.

This is an even larger problem since almost anything these days can be considered sexual assault.- SIX

---

You say this like it's a bad thing. How would YOU feel if some bigger guy grabbed your crotch without permission?

Quote:

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I don't know what's going on with you two (SIX, JSF). Why is it so hard for you to accept that a significant minority of men are pigs? Is it because YOU'VE never done any such thing in the past? - SIGNY

I don't accept it because I don't believe it's true.- SIX

---

Well, if you don't believe that 13+% of men are pigs, what percentage do YOU place it at? And what are your reasons for picking that number?

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Do you feel that women are making too much of a fuss about too little? Or that if women gain protections in this area, that you'll somehow be attacked?- SIGNY

I believe that the government and the MSM are making too much out of too little.- SIX

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So, what level of coverage at what level of crime do you think is appropriate, and why?

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I've also given potential reasons why this is happening.- SIX

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I'm awfully sorry SIX, I thought I read your posts with care, but I don't recall that(those) post(s) addressing the "why this is happening" so can you give a quick recap?

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A possible consequence of this...
As I stated above, I believe that a lot of men are going to opt-out of relationships and interactions with women altogether. For this and several of the other reasons I've talked about earlier in this thread.
This is already happening (see the MGTOW movement).
And my question to anybody who doesn't see where I'm coming from here is simple.
When men in large quantities start to opt-out of even attempting relationships with women, who is the more likely group to do so? The super-charged sex-tyrannosaurus types? Or the guys who weren't ever going to do any of this in the first place?- SIX

---

Maybe there should be a WOMEN Going Their Own Way (WGTOW) movement. If women were to rely on EACH OTHER for practical support and validation, they wouldn't feel compelled to attach themselves to a man, and any assocation would be purely voluntary.

One of the constant features of these cases of alleged (and proven) sexual abuse is the sheer number of women who are being assaulted over years and years with no reports being generated. Look at the nymber of girl Olympic gymnasts who were being raped by the team doctor, or the number of women allegedly abused by Weinstein, or Bill Cosby. In some ways, this is akin to the Sandusky crimes. How many children were abused over how many years? What is wrong with our system that this can go on for so long with nobody noticing? Part of the problem is that if you have a differential in age or power, the victims can be intimidated; part of the problem is that the crime happens in private; part of the problem is that it is being enabled by people close to the criminal. This is like what happened in my workplace (before significant protections were enacted) where there was one supervisor who made my work life an living hell for 5 years; I thought I was the only one but 20-40 years later I learned that he victimized many others. Multiple omplaints come out when one brave person complains first.

Have you ever taken a first aid course? They mention specifically the "bystander" effect: Nobody does anything until ONE person does something, this seems very similar.

So if we can figure out a way to get this victimization reported in a more timely manner we'll be light years ahead of where we are now.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Yanno what? I feel like we've hit an impasse and this conversation is not going to go any further.- SIX

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I guess my advice to college age girls would be to either stay in packs when drinking, or don't get drunk. If you really have a 13% chance that any given male is going to rape you or grab your pussy, this is probably not bad advice.- SIX

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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One of the constant features of these cases of alleged (and proven) sexual abuse is the sheer number of women who are being assaulted over years and years with no reports being generated. Look at the nymber of girl Olympic gymnasts who were being raped by the team doctor, or the number of women allegedly abused by Weinstein, or Bill Cosby. In some ways, this is akin to the Sandusky crimes. How many children were abused over how many years? What is wrong with our system that this can go on for so long with nobody noticing? Part of the problem is that if you have a differential in age or power, the victims can be intimidated; part of the problem is that the crime happens in private; part of the problem is that it is being enabled by people close to the criminal. This is like what happened in my workplace (before significant protections were enacted) where there was one supervisor who made my work life an living hell for 5 years; I thought I was the only one but 20-40 years later I learned that he victimized many others. Multiple omplaints come out when one brave person complains first.- SIGNY

Just like Roy Moore - right?- GSTRING

---

You might not have noticed, but I haven't weighed in on the guilt (or not) of Bill Cosby, Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein, Jerry Sandusky or Roy Moore, except that I have accepted the verdicts of jury trials. In complex cases where evidence may be equivocal, I feel that I don't have enough time to even find all of the relevant evidence, much less parse all of the available information in an objective way. So I withhold judgment on specific accusations.

In the case of Harvey Weinstein, he left a trail of evidence with a number of NDAs (which should be admissible in trial), a tape recording, and the statements of eyewitnesses.

I don't know at what point the sheer number of allegations itself becomes evidence, even tho the individual cases may be weak. I haven't thought enough about it to figure out a way where complaints can be heard and not create a witch hunt. I'm sure this is an important topic to lawyers, but there are other things that interest me a lot more.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

G, traveling, posting as CaptainCrunch. Replies may be spotty or non existant.

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Enjoying yourself I hope.

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And I was a lot more interested to see if you agreed with yourself. Seems almost as if iwhen something happens to you it’s one thing, and when it happens to others it’s something else.- GSTRING

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Yanno what? I feel like we've hit an impasse and this conversation is not going to go any further.- SIX

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Aww, too bad. I felt like we were really getting somewhere.

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I guess my advice to college age girls would be to either stay in packs when drinking, or don't get drunk. If you really have a 13% chance that any given male is going to rape you or grab your pussy, this is probably not bad advice.- SIX

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Agreed.

I just hope that my take-home message on discrimination didn't get lost in the shuffle: That just because one group is discriminated against in favor of another, doesn't mean that the favored group ALSO isn't discriminated against, sometimes along the same metrics and sometimes along others. Equality is one thing that ISN'T a zero-sum game. In fact, by definition, it has to be spread around, equally.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
LOL... alright. Doesn't hurt anything to try it out.

I feel like you're trying to recruit me for a cult. :)

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
are you quoting wiki to avoid honest discussion and just dance around inconveniently truthful definitions?

I don't see mention of urinating in public, or the complainant (victim) touching via body part OR Object intimate parts of the defendant. Both defined as Sexual Assault, although different States have different statutes.

And still dancing, kissing, hugging, massage, fully clothed is Sexual Assault, even consensual if the "victim" is the wrong age.

In what cases are Sexual Assaults charged or prosecuted by the United States Department of Justice, instead of the Local or State Prosecutor? Otherwise the DoJ definition has no meaning or application - only the Local laws actually enforced.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

I reject that.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

No. Nobody asked 20.4 million men and had 2.1 million men admit to researchers that they were guilty of sexual assault.

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I get what you're saying, but I'm going to risk being accused of "victim blaming" when I say that a lot of the issues that (some) women complain about today are things that they could (and many do) easily avoid if they do for themselves and I don't see how it does women any good to talk about being strong and independent and then out of the other side of their mouth demand special protections based off their gender.

I think the biggest problem with the Feminist movement today is the desire to have equal rights that men do, while also maintaining protections and special treatments that had before they had the equal rights too.

If you don't want to have sex when you're drunk, don't get drunk and have sex. I don't know how much simpler that can be.

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Men obviously aren't entirely blameless. You know I don't deal in absolutes.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

It's interesting that you can find a lot of way for WOMEN to change their behavior, and yet you seem to take the behavior of (in your view) a VERY small minority of men as a given.

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Because I reject the number based off of a sampling of 14,000+ men, when only 4,000 of them were used and there was no explanation to why the other 10,000 weren't.- SOX

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If a woman actually gets raped, the man should be locked away. If it's found out after the fact that she lied about it, she should be locked away for the same amount of time he would have been.

That's all you're going to get from me.

If a man grabs a chicks ass, she should kick him in the balls, or have her boyfriend do it.

Everybody needs to stop being such a pussy. - SIX

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4 out of 5 girls in college, according to Kiki's stats, don't seem to have a problem. Instead of putting all of the focus on the 13.2% of 4,000 men that answered a questionnaire, maybe we should also be asking what the 4 out of 5 women are doing right (or aren't doing wrong)?

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It would seem to me that you'd have a much larger pool of data to work with from that angle.

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Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Let's say that a woman silently removes a man's hand from her breast several times, but it keeps creeping back. Is that OK? What about if he keeps touching her crotch and she says "No"? What about if he grabs hard enough to leave bruises? Repeatedly rubs his crotch against her on the bus or in the subway? How about catcalls? Following her partway down the sidewalk making kissy noises?

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Still, I think you're missing a much larger picture. Both men and women do things that they don't necessarily want to do ... like having to defend yourself physically against a much larger opponent or accepting violent "hazing" rituals or conceding to have sex when you don't want to ... because it's EXPECTED of them. That's pretty dysfunctional messaging. Where are those messages coming from and how can we stop them?

I think a lot of social dysfunction comes from bad "messaging"; we really should examine social expectations and maybe work on changing some of them.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You seem to think that your "libertarian" POV is ... or should be ... the end-all-be-all for society.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Let's say that a woman silently removes a man's hand from her breast several times, but it keeps creeping back. Is that OK? What about if he keeps touching her crotch and she says "No"? What about if he grabs hard enough to leave bruises? Repeatedly rubs his crotch against her on the bus or in the subway? How about catcalls? Following her partway down the sidewalk making kissy noises?

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I have never, ever, EVER in my life seen any of these things happen.

I'm fairly certain that in most cases if this were to happen in public, you'd have more than one man in the vicinity getting in the middle of it.

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I'm not as old as some people who post here, but I'm not a kid. I've been around and seen the changes in society. I'm not going to say that these things don't occur just because I don't see them, but I'm not going to believe for a second that 13.2% of men would do any of them.

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I know that the ideal of constant re-affirmation during sex (yanno, a woman constantly having to say "yes" to each progression of sex) isn't workable and the lines are pretty blurred, there are a lot of gray areas that a man could get tripped up on, but drawing the line at "rape" is like drawing the line at getting knifed before calling "foul", it gives too much leeway to the aggressor. I'd draw the line elsewhere.

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I don't like your rules. I've opted out. The only reason I've even had sex in the last 4 or so years is because she was literally jumping on my lap and she had everything to lose. I didn't even have to leave my own house.

This is the level of desperation that will likely happen in the coming decades when most men just decide that sex isn't worth it at all anymore and there are many easier and safer and far less expensive alternatives. Women have 100% power in any relationship, and that's written in stone once the marriage contracts are signed with the government. No thank you. I decline.

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4 out of 5 girls in college, according to Kiki's stats, don't seem to have a problem. Instead of putting all of the focus on the 13.2% of 4,000 men that answered a questionnaire, maybe we should also be asking what the 4 out of 5 women are doing right (or aren't doing wrong)? -Six

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What about "IN ADDITION TO"?

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I did. Hence the "also" you missed.

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I've already conceded that I think women need to take more responsibility for their behavior and for the outcomes in their lives. Remaining a silent victim for years and years; or getting drunk in compromising situations; or not saying "no" when you mean "no"; is irresponsible. On the other hand, putting all of the onus on the presumed victim, and none on the aggressor, is kind of bass-ackwards, don't you think?

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I can't think of a single instance in my life, as a white male, that anybody ever gave me the benefit of the doubt or made excuses for my stupidity. I'm essentially a libertarian in all other aspects of my life and I don't see why I should make any changes to that for this topic. Personal responsibility is paramount. Nobody gets a do-over.

When you're doing the right thing, you're prepared for anything that happens and you have good situational awareness and somebody STILL goes out of their way and manages to hurt you, that's a different scenario altogether.

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It would seem to me that you'd have a much larger pool of data to work with from that angle. -Six

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It seems to me that focusing on the behavior of the smaller percentage of perps - from a criminal angle - is more effective than focusing on the behavior of the much larger percentage of potential victims from an education angle. But by all means, do both. -Sigs

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Yep. That's what I said.

Problem is they only go after males.

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Still, I think you're missing a much larger picture. Both men and women do things that they don't necessarily want to do ... like having to defend yourself physically against a much larger opponent or accepting violent "hazing" rituals or conceding to have sex when you don't want to ... because it's EXPECTED of them. That's pretty dysfunctional messaging. Where are those messages coming from and how can we stop them?

I think a lot of social dysfunction comes from bad "messaging"; we really should examine social expectations and maybe work on changing some of them.

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I don't know where they're coming from. I don't put them off myself. I've been stabbed and beaten within an inch of my life with no insurance or safety net before.

Life sucks sometimes. What are you gonna do?

The only way to "fix" this is to homogenize thinking entirely and strip people of their free will and individuality. I'm sure with time, they'll have a drug for that. I hope I'm dead and gone before that day comes. In the mean time, protect yourself, don't to anything too reckless, and be willing to own up to the consequences if you do so and get burned.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
are you quoting wiki to avoid honest discussion and just dance around inconveniently truthful definitions?

I don't see mention of urinating in public, or the complainant (victim) touching via body part OR Object intimate parts of the defendant. Both defined as Sexual Assault, although different States have different statutes.

And still dancing, kissing, hugging, massage, fully clothed is Sexual Assault, even consensual if the "victim" is the wrong age.

In what cases are Sexual Assaults charged or prosecuted by the United States Department of Justice, instead of the Local or State Prosecutor? Otherwise the DoJ definition has no meaning or application - only the Local laws actually enforced.

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I have no idea what you're trying to say.

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