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Originally posted by citizen:
Well if this is true your playing favorites with the Exodus. It must be correct and where other sources deviate they must be wrong or 'covered up'. But you know, rubbish what I'm saying any way you wish.

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Originally posted by citizen:
The Old Testament account and the Torah account are essentially the same source, but you were saying they are sources that support each other. Of course they do, they're the same source.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Of course the bible is the Hebrew version of the event, so just as the Egyptians not mentioning it could be the result of them wanting to cover up a great defeat the Hebrew version may be making a bigger deal of this than the Egyptians did. So a few 100 Hebrews leaving could become 1000's on retelling, an event of great significance if you were decended from one of those people but probably not worth mentioning if you were Egyptian.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cuhmal:
Show me where I said this.

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And we mustn't forget The Exodus which also places the Hebrews in Egypt and is certainly as valid a historical text as any other.
[[]followed by a link to a document discussing the Torah, when we're talking about the Exedus from the Bible[]]

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The Eruption of Santorini, which supports the Exodus account.

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Linguistic evidence that suggest that Hebrews lived in Egypt, which may support the Exodus account.

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The Ipuwer papyrus (the only Egyptian account that I’m aware of) which supports the Exodus account.

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The only account that you seem to be claiming deviates from the Exodus account is the one that evidently was never made.

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Originally posted by citizen:
The Exodus from the Torah which ALSO places the Hebrews in egypt. We were talking about the Bibles acount, you brought up the Torah account as if it was a seperate source.

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Originally posted by citizen:
No it doesn't. It supports that there was a Tsunami and a dust cloud that could attribute to parts of the Exodus story.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Linguistic evidence you still haven't even attempted to provide.

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Originally posted by citizen:
So one minute your saying that the Egyptian account is trying to cover up through admission, the next your saying it supports it. Which is it Finn?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:


Although I think it probably was thousands of slaves that escaped, but I don't think there is any way to know for sure.

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because it is CRITCAL to your everlasting spiritual life. Simple belief that it is the word of god ain't gonna cut it when god takes you to account about following his word.

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but why not say it is that and a whole lot more?

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Originally posted by OmegaDark:

because I would invariably get someone, unlike yourself, say, "WELL WHAT DOES WHOLE LOT MORE MEAN! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!"

Good grief!

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Originally posted by OmegaDark:

Live your life as good as possible, help when you can, and go to sleep....worrying about this and that and this and that will just get you to that early grave or a brain collapse....

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Actually, I have a dream where people do not worry about having more, they seek to have just enough. Where greed and envy are considered contagious mental diseases and the root of all ruin.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I apologize for the confusion, but I must admit I didn’t expect you to assume that I was talking about two different sources. Exodus is Exodus whether it’s printed in the Bible, the Torah or Time magazine.

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Thereby supporting the Exodus account.

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Linguistic evidence that I’ve already provided. If you’re looking for linguistic scientific journal articles, you’ll have to find them yourself. Please forward them to me if you do.

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You’re the one who claimed there was no Egyptian account, not me. Remember? I was simply pointing out that a lack of an Egyptian Account, as you claimed, does not invalidate the Exodus.

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Ipuwer papyrus

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n fact, there is an Egyptian Account and it pretty closely supports the Exodus Account, but that’s not what we were talking about; that’s another story.

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Originally posted by Rue:
Why would anyone hate this?

My issues are with arguments that go like this:

I say there was a full moon last night
I say my car was rear-ended last night
Since there was a full moon last night, it means my car was rear-ended

When dealing with composite stories, it's impossible to relate the veracity of one statement to another.

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Originally posted by citizen:
No you haven't. All you've done is say: “there is linguistic evidence”. I could say the Moons made of Cheese. All I want to know is what evidence you're referring too.

Saying there is linguistic evidence is not the same thing as providing it and since it is you making the claim the burden of proof is on your head, not mine.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You did say that the Egyptians covered it up and then you drag up an Egyptian source and say it that supports Exodus.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I am aware of this source. I told you there was historical and scientific evidence for the plagues of Egypt. I told you that there is no mention of Slaves being released, which is a major part of Exodus.

The Ipuwer papyrus does not contain any mention of the slaves. It only mentions the plagues of Egypt, which is what I've been saying all along. Evidence for the Plagues, which can be explained through natural phenomena, no evidence for the actual Exodus in a source other than the Bible.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cuhmal:
And I’ve given you the link, if you don’t like that evidence, that’s not my problem.

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Ipuwer:
Indeed, gold and lapis lazuli, silver and turquoise, carnelian and amethyst, Ibhet-stone and [*] are strung on the necks of maidservants.

Exodus:
...the sons of Israel...requested from the Egyptians articles of silver and articles of gold and clothing; and the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians so that they let them have their request. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You’re taking the statement out of context. In the original source that’s talking about what happens after Barbarians have driven the Egyptians from their homes leaving only the servants and their possessions.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You're getting closer and closer to arguing my point for me so I might just take a step back soon and leave you too it .

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Yes, but the reason you think so is that Exodus says so.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Let's look at what we know. Joseph is sold as a slave in Egypt and gains a reputation as a seer. He gets employed by Pharoh and eventually invites his family to join him there. Now let's say that by "family" we mean an extended group, a tribe. That is still not every Jew then living not by a very long shot. We then have a break in the narrative that is 100-300 years by which time the decendents of these Jews are no longer welcome in Egypt and are enslaved. Note that this was not like the Babylonians raiding Israel for slaves, this is the Egyptian Jewish population being oppresses. So we have some subset of the entire tribes of Israel actually being effected here. These folks leave and eventually end up in the promised land with what we assume to be those tribes that didn't leave. Over time the returnees pass their story along, and as they marry and mingle it becomes widespread.

Eventually someone writes this tale down, but by then several hundred years have passed almost everyone you would meet would claim to be related to the people that were there. If you do a headcount THEN that is a significant number.

Remember the Stone scene at the end of Schindler's list. He saved very few compared to those that were killed but in time he "saved" thousands of descendents. In 300 years a large number of the world's Jews will have at least one Schindler ancestor. You really do save the world in time.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- I loked into the links that you posted and didn't see an Egyptian account that prallels Exodus. If you have additional links or info let us know.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Originally posted by rue:
This association with the Exodus is generally rejected by scholars, who generally place the Exodus in the reign of Ramses II.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Also, I did read up on the dating. The consensus is that the papyrus existed a century or two before the Exodus. But assuming that there were some Abiru in Egypt (those naked, smelly herders that were occasionally rounded up and sent off to the big cities as gifts- including but not limited to Hebrews) isn't it possible that the "plagues" of Egypt got folded into the story of Exodus if the story of Exodus was developed afterwards? That and the fact that the Hebrew prophesies of a resurrected god seems to say that the Hebrews were at least "familiar with" Egyptian stories.

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That’s one interpretation.

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I see. And what point is that?

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The “Egyptian Account” is the Ipuwer papyrus.

An analysis of the Comparison between Ipuwer and Exodus
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/plagues.html

A translation of the Admonitions of Ipuwer:
http://www.touregypt.net/admonitionsofipuwer.htm

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ahh, the one that happened at around the start of the dark ages:
* The nobles were returning from the middle east "HOLY WARS".
* Pope John II died.
* There were days of darkness.
* The plague swept around the world three times in about ten years.
* There were seven years of crop failures.
* Nations changed their religions.
* Empires Fell.
* In places great drought destroyed the land.
* In other places floods brought chaos.
* Tree rings didn't show normal growth for fifteen years

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Originally posted by Gizmo:
And regarding extremism in religion, I personally think that can happen when someone takes one line of the Scripture and turns it into something that it's not by taking it out of context. Not that the small parts are insignificant, but it's always important to see the big picture.

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Originally posted by Signym:
Considering how we have populated well beyond any "local" carrying capacity, and how very dependent we are on technology and transporation (just look at the sewage problem from hurricane Katrina) I would imagine that we would depopulate very, very quickly.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
So we are left with two possibilities.

1) All sieges were short duration, which could be possible, the site most people believe was Jericho had damaged walls from an earthquake that hadn't been repaired after 100 years, so it's possible that medieval scholars reading "Siege" thought it was a bigger deal and the Caananite cities actually proved to be.

2) An Israelite army well in advance of a population already farming occupied lands and sending supplies forwards.

We also have to ask what happened to the Caananites? Perhaps what really happened was that over time the larger population became the bulk of the Jewish nation, taking on the cultural identity of the victors? Perhaps back then being Israeli was more acceptance of an idea than a a strict racial definition?

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Originally posted by citizen:
Well if you bothered to read what I posted for comprehension rather than just try and shout me down by playing word games like “They weren’t called Israelites back then”, or repeat what I’ve already said as if it disproves what I’ve said, you'd know. I'll spell it out too you:

That the story of Exodus, like other Bible stories, is a composite of many real events that happened at disparate times and became folk law among the people who became the Israelites and was then written down in a later evolved form as Exodus in the Torah and later the Old Testament of the Bible.

That Exodus wasn’t a ‘real event’ but a composite that formed folk law, like the legends of King Arthur were based on some real events and real people that were composited and the gaps filled.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
But I think that both Hebrews and the Canaanites were a similar ethnicity and it is likely that the base population of the early Israelite Kingdom was essentially Canaanite.

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Initial sanctimonious comments aside, I don’t really disagree with this. I just don’t think any of this precludes historical inquiry.

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The language used in the Ipuwer papyrus to describe the slaves/foreigners is not inconsistent with how one might imagine a slave revolt in the midst of a catastrophic breakdown of society would appear to the Egyptian aristocracy. Why would rebel slaves necessarily be viewed as ‘leaving,’ instead of ‘attacking?’ And why would the Egyptians view themselves as the oppressor, instead of the victim?

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Originally posted by citizen:
I'm sorry if it came across as sanctimonious but you were making out like I didn't have a point and at a number of times it came across to me like you weren't reading my posts, just skimming them looking for things you could use to discredit me. Like when you ignored nearly my entire post and then questioned it’s validity by questioning my use of the term “Israelites” instead of “people who became the Israelites”. That's how it came across; if it isn't true I'm sorry.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I’m not sure what you mean by “precludes historical inquiry”.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Except the attacking Barbarians are not described as slaves rising in revolt or any other internal threat, they're described as barbarian tribes coming IN from outside of Egypt.

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