How many years before China is No. 1? by TraineeAlternate

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I am not "apreading (sic) false information" regarding US v European unemployment figures.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/employment_social/news/2003/apr/eurostat_feb
_en.html

The Eurostat definition of unemployed people are those aged 15 to 74 and who, following the International Labour Organisation (ILO) definition:

- are without work

- are available to start work within the next two weeks

- and have actively sought employment at some time during the previous four weeks.

The US definition is those people who are currently receiving unemployment benefits. It does not take into account those who have dropped off the rolls due to long-term unemployment.

Your comment (below) is in error.

Quote:
Actually, this is quite wrong. The methods for determining unemployment, as reported by magazines such as The Economist and Time, are roughly equal, with a margin of error of about +/- 1.0%. I'm sorry to have to call you out on this, but you are apreading false information.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:11 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
wage statistics do NOT count investment income

For a good reason. Corporate income, mergers and corporate investment income do not contribute to personal spendable income. If you want to talk about personal income, for most Americans, it is wages.

And I'm sure you are aware of the deceptive nature of arithmetic averages, which is essentially what the GDP is. Median is also somewhat skewed, mode is probably the most reliable indicator of what Americans are earning per year.

Given available statistics, however, what you see is this:

http://www.monthlyreview.org/0405yates.htm

Basically they tell us that, with one exception, workers in the United States have been taking a beating for the past thirty years. The single exception is roughly the period from 1995 to 2000. From 1995 to 2000, wages (unless otherwise indicated, wages will refer to “real” wages, a measure of the purchasing power of our wages) began to grow significantly after two decades of stagnation ...
Most of the increases in total income have gone to the owners of capital

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:46 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
"Unless they can solve those significant factors they will be numerically bigger than the USA in just five years or so"

Finally, I did not make this statement, but I will address your comment.

The CIA factbook reports the Chinese GDP for 2004 was ~ 7.3 trillion, for 2003 it was ~ 5.7 trillion (+ 28%). The same source says the US GDP was ~ 11.7 trillion for 2004, and ~ 10.4 trillion for 2003 (+ 12.5%). Following these projections, the US GDP will be 13.1 trillion for 2005 and 14.8 trillion for 2006. The Chinese GDP will be 9.1 trillion for 2005 and 12.5 trillion for 2006. In sum, by 2006 they will be roughly equivalent, and China will definitively surpass the US in 2007.

What the Chinese report is something else.

And again, I mentioned that it was a topic we were kicking around about a year ago where I work, and I'm not going to re-research it. At the time, according to available economic consensus, the Chinese total economy was about on par with the US.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:31 PM

Hayward:

1. Any financial analysis which doesn't take currency into account is pure fantasy.
2. Consider Japan's growth from 1966 to 1989:
* Nikkei went from 1000 to 38900 at the high.
* The yen went from $.001 to $0.01
If you looked at the growth and said it was @39X you'd be way off, it was quite clearly 389X.
3. This is not the case in China because of hte fixed currecy, but it will be the case in the near future.
4. This currency change will be a result of investment and growth, and so the CIA's parity figure of $7T+ for China currently is entirely Justified.
5. The CIA gives China and US growth and GDP stats and the math was real simple. The 11 years in easily solid. If I were to guess I'd say 7 years is quite possible.

Nellie,

Even if you, like I assume Hayward does, agree with the idea of Communism, there is still great reason for concern.

When people attack China, or the Chinese, on this board, they mean the Chinese govt. I'm friends with a fair number of Chinese, and non-blood related to some, and I assure you, I have nothing against the Chinese people. The communist govt. of China is the only one under attack here.

China is a real threat. It's not a big country, it's an imperial power that invades and conquers other nations on a regular basis and then systematically dismantles their govts., outlaws their languages and destroys their cultures.

The Communist Party hierarchy is a Borg/Alliance, it's a systematic destroyer and assimilater of all things not it. Since coming to power, they have annexed: Manchuria, Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, N. Korean, Vietname, Cambodia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macao.

Chinese influence in Malaysia has gotten quite prevelant. I can't help but notice a pattern here. You don't have to be a right wing capitalist to be threatened by this. If you care at all about the people of the earth and their myriad cultures, their personal freedoms and the individual nations that are likely to be overrun, then you should be at least a little wigged by what's going on.

I'm aware that George W. Bush is doing the same thing in Iraq that China does every couple of years, but the fact that Bush is evil doesn't make China right, it makes them equally wrong.

We're talking about a country that randomly executes its citizens every time there is an uprising or people disagree with the govt. Even under Bush, whom I utterly despise, The US govt. is still far better than the Chinese govt.

I don't think we should stop China's economic growth, but there's another side to this. We have to do something to keep ourselves competitive. Once the madness called Bush/PNAC is gone, the US will still need to be there to protect nations around the world. China has plans on the middle east just as Bush does, and are making inroads into South America via Chavez, and plan to sponsor terrorist campaigns to overthrow other central and south american govts. and put in more robo-states. This is not good. It's an issue of some concern to many people here.

Quote:

Quote:

Nellie:
If western civilization collapses, it won't be because the Chinese got rich---it will be because of climate change. And who did that, I wonder?

Chrisisall:
Certain people so bent on controlling the world and it's oil that the understanding of what's good for America in the long term has gotten lost in the shuffle.

People bent on controling the world and its oil includes not only PNAC, but also the Chinese govt.

And for the co2 emissions, just for the record, though US is still 1st place, it only just nudges out china for 2005 eastimates (china around 1.2mmt, and the US around 1.4mmt) But US usage is likely to fall and china is rising. Under Kyoto, the US would have to cut to 1.2mmt, but no restriction would be placed on China. If China continues its trend of emulating us, with four times the population, it's easy to see China's co2 base as hitting 5mmt in the absence of serious intervention which Kyoto would bans in the instance of China.

Just shootin' some clay pigeons.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:36 PM

Re: Oil

I hope everyone knows that China has said it will aid Iran militarily in an effort to control mideast oil.

This isn't a conspiracy theory, they printed it in an official statement in the people's daily. That's the great thing about being the dictator of a totalitarian empire, you can say exactly what you mean.

They also appear to own Chavez.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:03 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And so here we are, playing the lifeboat game: only so much oil, only so much food, only so much capacity in the carbon cycle to go around. Some of this is inevitably as a result of our increasing (world) population- there does seem to be a limit on what can be farmed, raised, fished and cut. But in terms of energy sources for the mechanization that that has made us so productive (and our lives so much easier) there are alternatives to oil: conservation, solar power, and hydrogen for example. Take conservation: we could raise CAFE (vehicle fuel efficiency) standards by 10% (easily done), convert power transmission from AC to DC which saves at least 10%, subsidize home insulation, invest in mass transportation (how about land-ferries that use rail lines?), convert our power generating plants to turbines with waste-heat recovery, and take conservation into account with land-use plans. Hydrogen, as ity turns out, can be easily produced from "wet" ethanol using a cerium catalyst, and also from water using solar power. There should be be no reason why an oil shortage has us over a barrel, so to speak.

---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:18 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
only so much oil, only so much food, only so much capacity in the carbon cycle to go around

Eloquently and succinctly said.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hydrogen, as it turns out, can be easily produced from "wet" ethanol using a cerium catalyst, and also from water using solar power.

Another Neo-Lib meme! Where's you proof? Or the link?
This kind of unsubstanciated hyperbole is what you think passes for facts?
This is just another attempt to make Bush look bad.

Pathetic.

AURaptorisall

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
only so much oil, only so much food, only so much capacity in the carbon cycle to go around
Eloquently and succinctly said.

It's hard indeed to imagine that you ever passed 1st grade history.
The above is almost unworthy of my much-sought-for attention. I'll bend way down there to reply, though.
(You don't know as much as me

)

I'm done with this childishness.

Hayward79isall

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:38 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

OH WAIT! This was from Chrisisall,

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hydrogen, as it turns out, can be easily produced from "wet" ethanol using a cerium catalyst, and also from water using solar power.
originally posted by AUraptoris all:
Another Neo-Lib meme! Where's you proof? Or the link?
This kind of unsubstanciated hyperbole is what you think passes for facts?
This is just another attempt to make Bush look bad.

I can answer that. It was all over the internet a long time ago. Unfortunately, the news items have been removed by the various internet publications. So this reference will have to do:
http://www.it.umn.edu/news/inventing/2004_Summer/harvestinghydrogen.ht
ml

Quote:
Lanny Schmidt ... has just invented a reactor that extracts hydrogen from ethanol.

The original publication was in Science, February, 2004.

OK. I really messed up. Yup, I did. Anyway, this is the answer.

Now that I think about it, it was that easy to mistake this post from the real Auraptor.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:44 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey there Chrisisall - how ya doing?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:03 PM

Hey, Rue! LOL, I thought I might confuse and make fun at the same time. Sure is easy to 'mock'(ha ha) some people!! It's fun too, as AUR said.

Boy this place is fun sometimes

(Great new thread HK started, huh?)

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:11 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey, wait a minute! I resemble that!

Yeah, that is a great thread. But it's something I need to really think about - bend my mind ... in new directions ... must ... try ... to ... hang ...

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Signym:

And so here we are, playing the lifeboat game: only so much oil, only so much food, only so much capacity in the carbon cycle to go around. Some of this is inevitably as a result of our increasing (world) population- there does seem to be a limit on what can be farmed, raised, fished and cut. But in terms of energy sources for the mechanization that that has made us so productive (and our lives so much easier) there are alternatives to oil: conservation, solar power, and hydrogen for example. Take conservation: we could raise CAFE (vehicle fuel efficiency) standards by 10% (easily done), convert power transmission from AC to DC which saves at least 10%, subsidize home insulation, invest in mass transportation (how about land-ferries that use rail lines?), convert our power generating plants to turbines with waste-heat recovery, and take conservation into account with land-use plans. Hydrogen, as ity turns out, can be easily produced from "wet" ethanol using a cerium catalyst, and also from water using solar power. There should be be no reason why an oil shortage has us over a barrel, so to speak.

Yay. Well put.

Here's some more:

1. We now have giant battery cells which you can put in your basement and attach to solar cells on the roof. This conversion costs about $10K per household and it's spreading here in upstate new york. It makes a house entirely self sufficient. And we have all electric heat here, and last night it was 20 below zero, so trust me when I say we use a lot of power.

2. There are windmill farms, a la burt rutan, springing up around here, and entire towns and their industries can be supported by them, this is a working reality here in hickland, not a dreamt up fantasy. This can even power some moderate industry.

3. The toyota prius with a few mods can be upgraded to 250mpg. It was originally going to sell with these mods in place until the oil companies lobbied Toyota to prevent them from doing it. There's a company here that adds them for you, they've done it on about 10,000 vehicles. This also has an all electric switch so you use no gas if all you do in a day is drive half an hour to work each day, and then you can swing it back into gas mode for long drives.

These are cheap solutions if taken over the long haul, especially when compared to maintaining a constant military presence in the middle east. I remember reading somewhere on a lefty blog that the Bush admin had cost us $27K per household. I don't doubt that it's true, and that's just in five years. Think of the cost of the next 15 years of this kind of policy.

Plus, the admin push to have US automakers move away from this sort of thing is bankrupting Ford and GM. These companies subsist on govt. contracts, so don't think for a second the admin doesn't have this kind of pull. When this happens we are definitely going to see a little unhappiness on Wall Street.

If you want to talk expense, look at the total cost in the stock market that these policies have cost us.

By not persuing aggressive growth policy for US companies, all US companies, not just a few sweethearts, we have made investing in America less attractive. This bad policy of not heeding tax®ulation differences and the resulting outsourcing problem started with Clinton but Bush has exacerbated or at least continued that policy.

The market alone had lost over seven trillion in value and is still down over five trillion in value, to say nothing of lost growth potential.

But it gets worse. When you look at how Bush's deficit spending fiscal policy has effected the US dollar, it has slashed the value by nearly 50% vs. other world currencies. Some of this is flux, but at least half of it is outside of the usual cyclical flow. When absolute buying power is figured in, it tops 50%. Paring it down and giving Bush the benefit of extreme bad luck on the cyclical timing, you'd still have to accept a minimum of 30% currency devaluation of all net assets held by Americans in dollars.

The total net dollar asset of Americans has not been going up, and is somewhere around $110 trillion or so. If each dollar has lost, and at a bear minimum, 30 cents because of bad fiscal policy, this is a loss of 33 trillion in the purchasing power of America.

Now if we consider the bond market, the national debt, etc. etc. Let's face it, it looks bad.

I oppose big spending bills as much as the next guy, okay, a lot more than the next guy, in fact I think John McCain spends too much, but long term the fiscally prudent thing to do is make a radical shift in energy policy, even if it costs us in the short term. It's not going to cost us anything, a drop in the bucket, by comparison to simply irresponsible fiscal policy which seems to have no actual purpose at all, and may just be the side effect of a country run by a guy who bankrupted his own company, Arbusto, and a VP who very nearly bankrupted Halliburton. (If Cheney hadn't won the 2000 election, it would have folded in spite of sweetheart deals Cheney made with Clinton because of Cheney's other errors.)

I've read the analysis that Bush is running the govt. to make his friends rich, which is possible, but if that were so, consider this: Halliburton plus all the drug companies etc. who supported Bush have gained about $100 billion total in net market cap. as a result of Bush's policies.

Think how much better off we would all be if he had just reached in to the public till and pocketed $100B and sent it off in checks to his friends.

Now think of how much better America would STILL be, EVEN IF, Bush had taken one trillion dollars and stuffed his big fat pockets and ran off with his friends to buy an island. A big island. Like maybe Cuba.

Fiscally speaking, just about anything beats $30 trillion + of sheer economic terrorism.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:16 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
gross domestic products
Is different from standard of living. GDP does not take into account money distribution. Geezer, you should know better.

I know enough to read not only the entire NY Times article, but also the Timbro report. It ain't just GDP. The report also addresses standard of living. Please actually check out the links before you get all smarmy.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:21 PM

Quote:
Hydrogen, as it turns out, can be easily produced from "wet" ethanol using a cerium catalyst, and also from water using solar power.

I forgot to slam this idea. I think it's good to get all these ideas out. But turning farmland into an energy source as ethanol would be a worldwide ecological disaster and is just so much worse an idea than simply burning hydrocarbons that, well, it makes me lean toward the hummus offensive.

But the solar/battery solution is very workable, plus wind, all sorts of things. I'm also a fan of more nuclear if necessary. It's very clean and efficient. But only where it's needed. Cities maybe.

This reminded me.

I just read the worst idea I think I've ever heard: Stop global warming by creating a giant plankton carbon sink. There are many variations of this plan, but then all involve drastically altering the composition of ocean life to alter teh rate at which plankton takes in co2. The wonderful thing is that plankton is most rapidly evolving community of species on the planet, in part because it has constant fluid congegation with the planets largest DNA database. So, a rapidly evolving, potentially unstoppable force could be modified to take in much more co2. The best endgame I ran into was: what if we can't shut it off? well we'd basically throw the world into a permanent ice age. Sweet. Anyway this now tops 'Invade and occupy the middle east to secure our energy needs' as the worst solution to a current problem.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:40 PM

NELLIE

Good Grief! That's the last time I ever try to say anything positive about Real World Events, or anything at all.

I was really shocked at how upset everyone is getting over this, with Dreamtrove even starting to throw around "Commie b-stard" type accusations at me and Hayward! Amazing!

Yes, you're right that there's a big difference between the Chinese people and the government, and I was talking about the people, because I'm not interested in politics. Neither are they---they all say they love peace and hate war.

Just for the record, Inner Mongolia is a Chinese province, but Mongolia (Outer Mongolia)is an independent country, nothing to do with China (look on a map). As for Malaysia, millions of Chinese immigrants happen to live there, just like millions live in the USA, so of course there's some Chinese cultural influence! Good thing, too!

Remember that people always used to get hysterical about the Russian threat, too, and look what happened to that.

I just think people shouldn't get so hot under the collar about everything, and should think more about international cooperation, because we are all on this beautiful little planet together.

Goodbye---it was nice talking to you...

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:48 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Geezer,

And yet, the both the report and the article on the report consistently base their conclusions on 'per capita purchasing power', a faulty statistic. As SignyM pointed out, this number averages corporate and institutional numbers into individual ones.

It does not look at real WAGES, nor at purchases made by default - for example, health insurance and health care, transportation or education expenses picked up by US consumers in a larger share than by EU ones.

Further, it does not look at the normal measures of quality of life - average level of education, literacy, etc.

Finally, it does not address social mobility, which is low and dropping in the US and England, but higher in other countries.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:05 PM

Nellie,

Didn't mean to offend anyone, but what I said and the rest of this was light compared to normal banter here, which is suprisingly light compared to normal banter anywhere else. People here are more civil than I've seen just about anywhere. But we are not going to always agree.

Re: Mongolgia. Surprisingly I was not actually pulling this out of my ass. China and the USSR spent many years mucking around in mongolian politics, but my reference was to that and the annexation of inner mongolia in 1947 with Mao's USSR sponsored soviet republic of china, etc. That a nation was formerly party of an empire ruled from within your country is not a good reason for annexation, because if that were so, then every place in the world is owned four times over and the war would never end.

Re: China. As I said, I'm related to some of them, and know a great many more. They sometimes have a serious interest in politics. I know a couple of people who spent time in prison, one for twenty years because they disagreed with one of Mao's mad mandates of how healthcare was to be administered. They had previously served in his revolution, but that apparently was worth nothing when dissent was uttered.

This isn't hysteria. Ten million people are dead because of Chinese agression, and it isn't even slowing down. What's going to happen if there's an uprising in Taiwan over the disassembling of their democratic govt.? This is a very likely scenario. I think there is a lot of cause for genuine concern.

There was a lot of cause for genuine concern with the Soviet Union, a nation that killed 30 million of it's own people and conquered and robotized at least a dozen sovereign nations and fed revolutions in at least a dozen more to the same end.

I like peace as much as the next guy, more even, but when you're in a room with a loonie with an AK-47, the peaceful solution is not to wait and see if he kills everyone.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:08 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I just read the worst idea I think I've ever heard: Stop global warming by creating a giant plankton carbon sink. There are many variations of this plan, but then all involve drastically altering the composition of ocean life to alter teh rate at which plankton takes in co2. The wonderful thing is that plankton is most rapidly evolving community of species on the planet, in part because it has constant fluid congegation with the planets largest DNA database. So, a rapidly evolving, potentially unstoppable force could be modified to take in much more co2. The best endgame I ran into was: what if we can't shut it off? well we'd basically throw the world into a permanent ice age. Sweet. Anyway this now tops 'Invade and occupy the middle east to secure our energy needs' as the worst solution to a current problem.

What about spreading micronized iron across the ocean surface? Apparently, iron is the limiting nutrient is surface waters, and seeding the water with iron causes plankton blooms.

---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.

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Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
This isn't hysteria. Ten million people are dead because of Chinese agression, and it isn't even slowing down. What's going to happen if there's an uprising in Taiwan over the disassembling of their democratic govt.? This is a very likely scenario. I think there is a lot of cause for genuine concern.

There was a lot of cause for genuine concern with the Soviet Union, a nation that killed 30 million of it's own people and conquered and robotized at least a dozen sovereign nations and fed revolutions in at least a dozen more to the same end.

Well, this is what happens when an economy can't offer jobs with livable wages to most of its' people. Thinking about China as a specific example, it was an empire (with a real emperor and fuedal structure) not too long before the Communist takeover. The culture, somewhat like Japan, seems to be more about blending in than standing out. Our focus on freedom and individuality is just that- OURS. The main concern of the average Chinese seems to be bent more towards economic issues rather than theories of governance... altho with an increasing standard of living there does also seem to be more involvement with environmental issues and the problems of provincial/ local corruption.

---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.

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Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:42 AM

Yeah, this is one of the parts of the really bad plan. It's the one that fortunately won't work because there's not enough available biomass, but even that will dangerously alter the eco balance of the earth in a way potentially more catastophic than global warming. In spite of dire predictions, Global warming is a relatively innocuous event, since it is reversing a longstanding trend of global cooling, thus setting the earth back millions of year. But most of the land was land then, and most of the species of lifeforms were in some form alive and well. Since the iron level was never at the height proposed, and since this also, if it worked and was effective, could, like the bio-engineered superplankton idea also plunge the world into a permanent ice age, there's nothing natural about the solutions.

Here's a short list of better ideas:
1. Stop producing greenhouse gasses at an uncontrolled rate.
2. Intentionally accellerate global warming, it's a terrible plan, but it's not as bad as the permanent ice age one.
3. Invade an occupy Iraq to cure our energy supply. This is one of the worst plans I've ever heard, but only second to this plankton thing.
4. I'm still leaning toward the hummus offensive.

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Thursday, December 15, 2005 5:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nellie:
Good Grief! That's the last time I ever try to say anything positive about Real World Events, or anything at all.

Goodbye---it was nice talking to you...

No, please, at least drop a few comments from time to time, we need niceness in here too!
I understand it gets pretty fast and furious in here, but don't let it upset you, a lot of times folk here are just playin', albeit HARD.

In any case, be well.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 15, 2005 6:24 PM

Signym,

I don't buy it. We got this same 'communism is in the nature of Russians' argument all the time during the cold war, but this turned out to be more or less hogwash. I can't think that it's true about the chinese. It's certainly not true about the Taiwanese or the Hong Kongese. So they used to be oppressed by something else, and now they're oppressed by the commies. Doesn't mean they like it.

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 5:06 AM

NELLIE

Thank you so much, Chrisisall, for your kind words---you surprised me!

I realize now that Dreamtrove must have a lot of relatives from Taiwan, who are naturally terrified of being "swallowed up" by China, so they stir up lots of scary stories and drag up all that stuff from the war half a century ago, in order to keep Daddy America fighting for them.

Remember how terrified everyone was when the British had to hand back Hong Kong to China a few years ago? There were predictions that all the Hong Kong people would be thrown into prison, tortured, executed or dragged away into darkest Mainland, never to be seen again. All the capitalist trading and businesses would be destroyed, everyone's property would be seized, and there would be wholesale slaughters of babies, kittens and fluffy bunny rabbits.

Did any of that stuff happen to Hong Kong? Well, NO, actually---it's all business as usual there, and China is now busy building a rival to Hong Kong: the new "enterprise city" of Shenzhen.

So quit tossing around these numbers of millions of people killed here and millions more there, Dreamtrove---that has happened on both sides of every war in every country. Every country has done terrible things and endured terrible things, and if we all keep dragging up this historical stuff, we might as well just have one continuous planetary war and never stop.

I'll never forget the news item about one Muslim group who threw hand grenades and machinegun fire into a mosque while a different Muslim group were praying on their knees inside, all because of some quarrel that happened nearly 1000 years ago, for Pete's sake!

No one thought the Berlin Wall would ever fall down. It was unthinkable that people would ever walk freely in the sunshine from one side to the other without being shot. But it did---one day, the people tore it down.

Let go of the past, Dreamtrove, and move on---things have changed. Things always change, and sometimes the most wonderful things happen unexpectedly.

OK, I really am going to shut up now...it's all Chrisisall's fault for saying nice things!

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 10:57 AM

Nellie,

I'm appalled. No, they're from Beijing. The Chinese people are somewhat concerned that their govt. is evil. Just like the American people are somewhat concerned that the govt. of George W. Bush is evil.

A few this about this global imperial menace called China which thinks it has a divine right to control every country that has asians in it:

1. The British made a lease deal with imperial China. After that ended, it made sense for the british to leave. Hong Kong should have then become an independent country, but it was annexed by Beijing. It's a place that I've actually been too, and the people were most definitely not communists. Also they spoke two languages, neither of which was the language of Beijing.

2. Taiwan is a sovereign nation that apart from being occupied in WWII by China has never really been Chinese. It's been more or less an independent nation since its founding 400 years ago. As a wealthy independent democratic nation with 23 million people in it, the parallels to Iraq are obvious.

3. I certainly have heard of the dismantling of Hong Kong's elected govt. and the replacement with a Communist govt. agency.

4. This is a world being taken over by a system that accepts no dissent, where the people comply because they are forced to comply, it's ant hill society.

5. This is my clay pigeon of the moment:

Quote:

So quit tossing around these numbers of millions of people killed here and millions more there, Dreamtrove---that has happened on both sides of every war in every country.

Particular when one or more sides is a socialist.

and this:

Quote:

Let go of the past, Dreamtrove, and move on---things have changed.

Not on your life!

Things have changed all right, evil has the upper hand. I'm not going to sit back and let Nellie's engine of perpetual genocide take over. A million here a million there, who's counting? who cares? right? Not on my watch!

Everyone knew the Berlin Wall was coming down, that was the objective, and that, btw, was a symbolic defeat of communism. This doesn't happen accidentally. For the reign of terror in China to end someone has to work for it. Remember the massacre in and around Tiananmen Square?

Well, the reality is that the Chinese really did kill ten million people, and they will do it again if they're not stopped. And they will do it in the name of power, absolute power, over the Earth. Somewhere, maybe in the Middle East, maybe in South America, they will fund a revolution which will go out of control and millions will die. It's inevitable. Yeah, you can quote me on that.

So, to your plea "Please turn a blind eye to the marching empire," I respond:

Hell No!

Not in a million years. In my book, people have:

1. A right to life, and the right that that right should not be taken away.
2. A right to freedom, to swing their arms as long as their doing so does not interfere with anyone else.
3. A right to assemble or take part in any activity, in any group, even any nation state, and therein set up any rules of conduct they wish, without being systematically dismantled by someone who happens to have a bigger gun.

Didn't find your post particularly nice, and not stomping for Taiwan here, but if I was, then so what? Someone should be stomping for Taiwan here.

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:30 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I thought this was an informative article that addressed 'quality of life' in the US:
Source: Brandeis University
Date: 2005-10-29
URL: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051029093925.htm

Hunger In America Rises By 43 Percent Over Last Five Years

Hunger in American households has risen by 43 percent over the last five years, according to an analysis of US Department of Agriculture (USDA) data released today. The analysis, completed by the Center on Hunger and Poverty at Brandeis University, shows that more than 7 million people have joined the ranks of the hungry since 1999.
The USDA report, Household Food Security in the United States, 2004, says that 38.2 million Americans (13% of the entire US population) live in households that suffer directly from hunger and food insecurity, including nearly 14 million children. That figure is up from 31 million Americans in 1999.
"This is an unexpected and even stunning outcome," noted center director Dr. J. Larry Brown.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:39 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And for those waho maintian that privately- provided services are more efficient that government-provided ones:
Source: University of California - San Francisco
Date: 2005-11-10
URL: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051110215547.htm

Study Finds Billions Of Health Insurance Dollars Used For Administrative Costs

Billing and insurance paperwork consume at least one out of every five dollars of private insurance health spending in California, according to a new study by health policy researchers.

The findings suggest that about $230 billion in health care spending nationally is devoted to insurance administration.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, December 19, 2005 3:22 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Just wondering if there is any reponse to the two articles.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, December 19, 2005 4:24 PM

One cites incredible need, while the other cites incredible waste. The polar ends of this polarized country.

I count myself lucky that I'm only hungry when I forget to make my lunch.

And insurance companies are just the inevitable socialist/capitalist by-product of a hopelessly over-complicated and mis-managed legal system combined with a healthcare system that has the $ appetite of the economic dragon that it is!!!
*end of mini-rant*

Dragonslayer Chrisisall

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Monday, December 19, 2005 5:21 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Thanks for your opinions.

I know being close to the holidays people are busy and all, but I have just completed a major project that's been draggin' on for 8 months and right at the moment I'm free, FREE, FREE !.

Wanders around the empty city. Hello ? Hello ? Is anybody there ?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, December 19, 2005 5:38 PM

I wasn't going to comment because I don't see this as a major problem facing our nation. The real issue here is we just need to get society up and running again or this is nothing compared to the disaster we may face. Focusing too closely on what may be a symptom of a decayed society may lead to a solution which is not really best for society as a whole. There is no end of ways to get fed if you need food in this country. The food stampedes in india this week speak of a much worse problem, and the problem is even worse in africa. If america cannot get its act together, that could be us in just a couple decades. If this seems alarmist, bear this in mind. Russia went from being the wealthiest nation on earth to having 10 million people starve to death in the streets in just ten short years from 1910 to 1920.

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Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:58 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
The food stampedes in india this week speak of a much worse problem, and the problem is even worse in africa.

Oddly eonough, India has plenty of food. It produces more than enough for everybody and there are surpluses stacked in warehouses. If I remember rightly, the calculation went that if all the sacks of surplus (in India) were stacked on top of each other, they'd reach to the moon and back.

The problem there, like in the US, is distribution. There it is baldy based on caste and sex. Here, it is also based on caste, with our 'untouchables' being poor folk. (And yes I know, caste was outlawed in India. But caste still is the de facto determinant of who gets food and who doesn't.)

If you think there is always a way to get enough food in the US, then you have not spent much time without money. B/c, sure as the sun rises, even benefits to which you are clearly entitled sooner or later run out. Then you are out of luck.

Africa has severe problems with drought and AIDS. But even then, distribution is a major factor. War and corruption being two major kinks.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, August 16, 2021 2:02 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The ultimate relevant necropost!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, August 16, 2021 2:19 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

China won't be number 1, not yet anyways... that's not to say they won't continue gaining and they are very good long term chess players, the USA would have to continue to screw things up for another 5 yrs.
I always had tipped them to become some sort of economic military global Superpower but I thought the USA should remain ahead, this was at a time it wasn't really popular to back the idea of a strong dragon as they were still almost running around in those old Maoist Communist suits and S.Korea and Japan were seen as the powers. I'm not really shocked by China's growth but kind of shocked at how rapidly the West is falling backwards, its not just biden or Trump lots and lots of ground was lost during the Obama and Bush-Jnr years.

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Monday, August 16, 2021 2:49 PM

China will have to compete with India for the spot now. I'm sure they're way ahead, but in time. US will oof

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Tuesday, August 17, 2021 12:58 AM

China can eat my balls.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Monday, January 3, 2022 8:18 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

maybe less than 10 the way things are going

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Monday, January 3, 2022 9:02 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
maybe less than 10 the way things are going

China Is Now the World’s Largest Economy. We Shouldn’t Be Shocked.

China has now displaced the U.S. to become the largest economy in the world. Measured by the more refined yardstick that both the IMF and CIA now judge to be the single best metric for comparing national economies, the IMF Report shows that China’s economy is one-sixth larger than America’s ($24.2 trillion versus the U.S.’s $20.8 trillion). Why can't we admit reality? What does this mean?

This week (October 15, 2020), the IMF presented its 2020 World Economic Outlook providing an overview of the global economy and the challenges ahead. The most inconvenient fact in the Report is one Americans don’t want to hear—and even when they read it, refuse to accept: China has now displaced the U.S. to become the largest economy in the world. Measured by the more refined yardstick that both the IMF and CIA now judge to be the single best metric for comparing national economies, the IMF Report shows that China’s economy is one-sixth larger than America’s ($24.2 trillion versus the U.S.’s $20.8 trillion).

Despite this unambiguous statement from the two most authoritative sources, most of the mainstream press—with the exception of The Economist—continue reporting that the U.S. economy is No. 1. So, what’s going on?

While the yardstick most Americans are accustomed to still shows that the Chinese economy is one-third smaller than the U.S., when one recognizes the fact that $1 buys nearly twice as much in China than in the U.S., the Chinese economy today is one-sixth larger than the U.S. economy.

For the U.S. to meet the China challenge, Americans must wake up to the ugly fact: China has already passed us in the race to be the No. 1 economy in the world. Moreover, in 2020, China will be the only major economy that records positive growth: the only economy that will be bigger at the end of the year than it was when the year began. The consequences for American security are not difficult to predict. Diverging economic growth will embolden an ever more assertive geopolitical player on the world stage.

More at https://nationalinterest.org/feature/china-now-world%E2%80%99s-largest
-economy-we-shouldn%E2%80%99t-be-shocked-170719

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, January 3, 2022 10:59 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

How might China achieve continuing useful, purposeful growth? Perhaps by shutting down what is useless and purposeless economic activity. Report: Over 140,000 Chinese Gaming Firms Shut Down in 2021

Computer Games count as growth, but some growth, measured in renminbi, isn't really growth. For example: Heroin. China is aware that Americans' Spending on Illicit Drugs Nears $150 Billion Annually; Appears to Rival What Is Spent on Alcohol
https://www.rand.org/news/press/2019/08/20.html

Excessive Drinking is Draining the U.S. Economy
The cost of excessive alcohol use in the U.S. was almost a quarter trillion dollars in 2010. $250 billion counts as economic activity, but does the American economy need more of that kind of activity?
https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-drinking.html

China is also aware that American Video game spending hits record $56.9 billion in 2020
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2021/01/15/video-game-spend
ing-2020-reaches-record/4172689001/

Report: Over 140,000 Chinese Gaming Firms Shut Down in 2021

https://www.pcmag.com/news/report-over-140000-chinese-gaming-firms-shu
t-down-in-2021

China's government hasn't been issuing licenses for new games, and companies are shutting down as a result.

China's gaming market is getting a lot smaller.

South China Morning Post reports that the National Press and Publication Administration (NPPA) hasn't approved new games for release since the end of July 2021. That means small and large gaming companies alike haven't been able to introduce new titles for nearly six months.

Larger companies have been able to offset the financial challenges posed by this pause on game releases by laying off employees, according to the report, but smaller companies haven't fared as well. The state-run Securities Daily reportedly said 140,000 such firms have shut down.

South China Morning Post reports that the NPPA "has neither provided an official explanation for the latest suspension nor any hint on when the process for new video game approvals will resume." It previously approved somewhere from 80-100 new titles for release each month.

This ad hoc moratorium on new releases follows the introduction of stricter gaming regulations. Tencent started using facial recognition in July 2021 to stop kids from playing games at night, and that August, the NPPA said minors couldn't play online games from Monday to Thursday.

Similar restrictions were introduced for other services as well. Douyin, the Chinese version of TikTok, started limiting younger people to just 40 minutes of usage every day in September 2021. (And started to enforce five-second pauses between videos for all users in October.)

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, January 3, 2022 11:43 AM

China's probably having second thoughts about releasing Covid with Fauci.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Monday, January 3, 2022 12:17 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
China's probably having second thoughts about releasing Covid with Fauci.

China is doing fine compared to the USA:
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data?country=CHN~USA

China's low death rate from Covid (4,636) probably has something to do with China's intolerance of crooked businessmen such as Trump. (Chinese acting like Trump don't get sued. Instead, a Chinese version of Trump would be shot dead.) The Chinese aren't any more tolerant of anti-vaccination than they are of a Trumpish conman.

Lai “endangered national financial security and financial stability,” said a commentary on the state TV website. The death penalty “was his own responsibility, and he deserved it,” the commentary said.
https://apnews.com/article/world-news-tianjin-china-asset-management-2
f5d1248477a8e044d9fa7b6899ca406
Everybody in China wears a mask, except the guy who will be executed because nobody cares what happens to him:
https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/26908534723144dd9c8aa8a7
2733f2e0/1000.jpeg

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, January 3, 2022 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
China's low death rate from Covid (4,636)

LOL...

The only thing less trustworthy than American News is Chinese News.

You're an idiot.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Monday, January 3, 2022 7:35 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
China's low death rate from Covid (4,636)

LOL...

The only thing less trustworthy than American News is Chinese News.

You're an idiot.

If you call the Chinese death-rate a lie, then why not declare China's entire GNP a lie?

Make the Chinese GNP only 50% of America's rather than 120% of America's.

No, make it 25%.

It could be kind of the same as Trump's election. Trump arbitrarily reduced the number of votes for Biden and increased his vote count to declare himself the winner. You can do the same with China's GNP versus the USA's GNP. Or with the Covid-19 deaths! No matter what China claims, make your revised number for China twice as much as the number of American dead declared by the CDC.

There are so many problems that could be fixed by Americans using fake numbers!

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, January 3, 2022 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
China's low death rate from Covid (4,636)

LOL...

The only thing less trustworthy than American News is Chinese News.

You're an idiot.
If you call the Chinese death-rate a lie, then why not declare China's entire GNP a lie?

Make the Chinese GNP only 50% of America's rather than 120% of America's.

No, make it 25%.

It could be kind of the same as Trump's election. Trump arbitrarily reduced the number of votes for Biden and increased his vote count to declare himself the winner. You can do the same with China's GNP versus the USA's GNP. Or with the Covid-19 deaths! No matter what China claims, make your revised number for China twice as much as the number of American dead declared by the CDC.

There are so many problems that could be fixed by Americans using fake numbers!

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

China's death rate is a lie because nobody dies of Covid.

You should never believe anything that comes out of China's news, dummy.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Tuesday, January 4, 2022 8:05 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

China's death rate is a lie because nobody dies of Covid.

You should never believe anything that comes out of China's news, dummy.

There are news stories about Chinese big shots who act like Trump being executed. Chinese stories say the swift removal from power of greedy and dishonest businessmen was necessary for the Chinese economy to grow larger than the American economy. China is telling the truth.

China locks down city of more than a million people after 3 Covid-19 cases found

From CNN's Beijing Bureau
https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/omicron-variant-coronavirus-news-0
1-04-22/h_3b123705b04966a607c05bcfce263d1d

A city in central China has gone into lockdown to curb the spread of Covid-19, according to local authorities.

The municipal government of Yuzhou, Henan province said all 1.2 million residents will be confined to their homes after just two asymptomatic cases were reported Sunday. A third local asymptomatic infection was identified Monday, the government added.

Barring essential services such as supermarkets, all public facilities including schools, public transport and shopping malls have suspended operations.

Those who work in essentials industries, including supermarkets, medicine production, and energy plants, are allowed to go to work after presenting a negative Covid-19 test, the government said.

China reported 108 new local cases across three provinces on Monday, including 95 in northwestern Shaanxi province, eight in southeastern Zhejiang, and five in Henan, according to the National Health Commission (NHC).

The country also reported 21 new local asymptomatic cases, including 19 in Henan and two in Shanghai, the NHC said. China counts symptomatic and asymptomatic cases separately.

Lockdowns: The Yuzhou lockdown mirrors the strict restrictions imposed on residents of the northwestern city of Xi'an, capital of Shaanxi.

Since December, the ancient city has been grappling with China's largest community coronavirus outbreak since Wuhan, the original epicenter of the pandemic.

To date, more than 1,700 cases have been reported in the city. While the number pales in comparison to those in many other countries, the outbreak pushed China's caseload in the final week of 2021 to the highest level since March 2020.

Xi'an's 13 million residents have been confined to their homes since December 23. Many are growing desperate as they run out of essential supplies, including groceries, and fall short on medical attention.

Zero Covid: Xi'an authorities launched a fifth round of mass testing on Tuesday, vowing to eliminate the outbreak.

But the frustrations of residents underscore the growing challenge facing China's zero-Covid policy, which relies on a playbook of mass testing, extensive quarantines and snap lockdowns to stamp out any resurgence of the virus.

While the stringent measures have largely shielded the majority of the country from the worst aspects of the pandemic, as local outbreaks continue to flare up, the outcry in Xi'an raises the question of just how long zero-Covid can be sustained before public support begins to taper off, with millions of residents trapped in an seemingly endless cycle of lockdowns.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, January 4, 2022 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
China is telling the truth.

That's all you ever need to know about Second.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Tuesday, January 4, 2022 12:46 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
China is telling the truth.

That's all you ever need to know about Second.

There is part of China that never had Chairman Mao in control. That part, Taiwan, certainly outshines mainland China economically. Taiwan grows faster than China. America has had its own foolish little Chairman Maos, Trump and George Bush. Both of them managed to crash the American economy in the style of Mao Tse-tung crashing the Chinese economy. Trump literally had his own version of Mao's Great Leap Forward, Trump's Make America Great Again. What a pair of ill-planned economic fiascoes both were. Neither the Communist Party nor Republican Party want to talk about it.

Country comparison Taiwan vs China
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/taiwan/china?sc=XE34

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, January 4, 2022 1:05 PM