REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Saddest Calvin and Hobbes Sketch Ever

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Saturday, March 3, 2007 04:12
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 13575
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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 3:14 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK




Not sure if it's real. I got it off of Digg.com. It brought a tear to my eye.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 3:22 PM

PENGUIN


It's not real...the font is all wrong...and the strip is called Calvin and Hobbes.







King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 3:50 PM

CYBERSNARK


Real or not, it is sad though.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 6:54 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


If that's how it is, it would be sad. Speaking as someone who's tried VERY hard to keep my 'boinginess' from getting in the way of real life, I can say that it feels SSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOooooooooooo.... good to not be 'driven to distraction' every waking moment. You. CAN. slow. down. AAAHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh.....

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 7:16 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL


excellent book too.


Yeah, that strip isn't real. Btw, the pills don't kill my other worlds, the pills help me visit them when I want to go not when they want me to visit.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Well Rue, and TWG.... I can go with that. I choose not to myself, but I can respect that there are individuals who feel that they need a prescription. I have no doubts that I would be labled with one form of disorder or another, if not 10 at the same time if I ever sought help, so I choose not to go there myself. I really probably shouldn't say that I will NEVER be on pills one day either since I pretty much think differently today about everything than I did just 10 years ago when I was graduating high school.

My only problem is that children being fed the pills really aren't old enough or self aware enough to be making these choices for themselves on their own, and usually have no say in the matter since the parents are the deciding factors here. I suggest that, just like cigarettes, pills should not be allowed to be fed to children under 18 years old, except for possibly the most extreme cases... say a child who it has been proven to act like Damion from the Omen.

Some may argue that anyone this child hurt after the fact could have been spared this had the child been put on pills earlier, and it's hard to argue that point. I feel that these small occurances are a great trade off though when you consider all of the children who should never have been put on pills who by law could not be forced on the pill until they were legally old enough to decide that smoking a cigarette is right or wrong for them.

That, and I'm not looking forward to the world where it is mandatory that we all get psychological evalutations and are forcefed the happy pills. I am pretty much convinced by preceeding trends in all matters of politics and legislature that this will be the case someday in the future once enough of the people are sold on the beleif that this is beneficial to their welfare and security.

I am aware of the fact that my behavior could be very erratic sometimes, but it is my choice to feel this way until I actually have been arrested, convicted and sentenced for harming somebody. We still live in a country where we are innocient until proven guilty, don't we? We all know my stance on the war. I feel that giving a 10 year old kid Ritalin is the equivalent of a pre-emtive strike on their personality, and in essence, limiting their own ability and creativity before they've even had a chance to discover themselves.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I feel that giving a 10 year old kid Ritalin is the equivalent of a pre-emtive strike on their personality, and in essence, limiting their own ability and creativity before they've even had a chance to discover themselves.

Bingo.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:12 AM

DEEPGIRL187


You know, it's pretty sick and depressing that someone would use a comic strip that shows the magic of childhood to spout their own agenda. Whatever my feelings on ADHD are, I wouldn't bastardize someone else's work to get my point across.

I'm sorry, but Calvin and Hobbes is something I feel pretty strongly about, strange though it may sound. It's just too wonderful a story to politicize.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:07 AM

WHODIED


G23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate, anyone?




--WhoDied
_______________________

All those secrets you've been concealing
Say you're happy now...



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Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"My only problem is that children being fed the pills really aren't old enough or self aware enough to be making these choices for themselves on their own, and usually have no say in the matter since the parents are the deciding factors here."

I'd say - why NOT ask the kids? This is only hypothetical since I never took Ritalin as a kid, but if it had cleared up the 'noise' back then the way it does now, I would have felt a lot beter back then.

I can't see a reason to NOT ask a child if they prefer the medication or not.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:36 AM

STORYMARK


My brother had pretty extreme ADHD as a kid (and still gets pretty off-the-wall as an adult). When he was a kid, he was given the option of taking Ritalin, and did for a while. After about 4 years of medication, he decided that the medication had calmed him enough that he was able to learn methods to controll his energy level himself, and so stopped taking ritalin - a decision our Mother supported. He's still a hyper person, but when he needs to buckle down and get something done, he knows how to do it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:50 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I suggest that, just like cigarettes, pills should not be allowed to be fed to children under 18 years old, except for possibly the most extreme cases... say a child who it has been proven to act like Damion from the Omen.


Quote:

I feel that giving a 10 year old kid Ritalin is the equivalent of a pre-emtive strike on their personality, and in essence, limiting their own ability and creativity before they've even had a chance to discover themselves.


Question. What about the kids that are at a SEVERE academic disadvantage? The kids who could be B or A students but who will instead be C or D students? The kids who might be able to go to a good college and get advanced degrees and good jobs, but who will instead go to community college and get crappy jobs? Do we condemn them to a life of mediocrity and hardship?

'nother question. What about the other kids? The ones who are distracted by the ADD kids? The ones who learn less because they or their teachers are constantly being interrupted by the unmedicated kids? I suppose we could segregate out the problem children but then that would only make them even worse.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 10:25 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Where/who is this from?

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 10:27 AM

PENGUIN


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Where/who is this from?



I thoroughly disapprove of duels. I consider them unwise and I know they are dangerous. Also, sinful. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet retired spot and kill him.
- Autobiography of Mark Twain





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 10:38 AM

GEEKMAFIA


Argh! I first saw that Calvin one a while back and was told it was the last one. That was really depressing. There is however a photoshopped "happy ending"



Also, the actual last Calvin and Hobbes strip, which is much much nicer:






http://midknight.wilson.googlepages.com/home

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 11:00 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

My only problem is that children being fed the pills really aren't old enough or self aware enough to be making these choices for themselves on their own, and usually have no say in the matter since the parents are the deciding factors here. I suggest that, just like cigarettes, pills should not be allowed to be fed to children under 18 years old, except for possibly the most extreme cases... say a child who it has been proven to act like Damion from the Omen.



Here is something more to consider. Usually it is the parent or teacher that notices a child has ADHD, not the child. Expecting someone to be aware that they have any type of mental condition/illness is probably not going to happen soon. I think you can't take away a parent's right to try the medication route when a minor is having ADHD related difficulties. I would be interested in any hard data on the success rates of meds for ADHD.



"You can believe your eyes...or you can believe me." -Groucho Marx

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 11:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


My daughter never believed she had seizures either. Doesn't mean she didn't have them, or didn't need medication.

Insight is hard to come by, and it's the one real advantage to getting older. You have to experience yourself in many situations over and over before you know yourself. It's not possible for a child to "know" themselves.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 11:37 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


When I was a child of course I never thought I had ADD/ ADHD. All I knew was that I couldn't do what other kids did. For example, I couldn't pay attention enough to know what was going on in class. I still have nightmares of being in class and all the other kids are taking out papers and pens and I'm wondering why. I have vivid memories of the teachers demonstrating to the class how to do something, and I couldn't follow more than two steps at a time - I was always lost when it came to that kind of thing. And if it hadn't been for those few minutes (which I still vividly remember) when the internal noise went away, I would never have realized that the overwhelming noise was anything other than normal.

But if the child has ADD/ ADHD and you put them on medication and it appears to be objectively effective, it would give the child a comparison.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 1:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Calvin and Hobbes was the best ever. Followed closely by Bloom County. But eventually, Calvin did have to grow up. He had to face the reality that life isn't what one makes of it. Life is what others tell us it's suppose to be.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Well, I want my life to be filled with wonderous abilities. LOOK ! I can fly ! And no buzz-kill is going to tell me any different !

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:15 PM

PENGUIN


Bloom County is da bomb!






King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:21 PM

DARKJESTER


I don't care if I am in my 40's, I want a transmogrifier gorramit!

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

http://www.fireflytalk.com - Big Damn Podcast

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


http://app1.unmc.edu/PublicAffairs/TodaySite/sitefiles/today_full.cfm?
match=3248


You have GOT to see this!








---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Wow! I can't believe the overwhelming positive response to altering our children's behavior and crippling our children's creative development and personality to ensure that they stay in the lines.

This infuriates me to no end and I'm starting to feel there is no point debating it anymore because there is simply no talking sense into anybody who is pro-mind altering drugs. You all want to be slaves to the pharmacuitical companies, who am I to stop you? You want to put your kids on pills before they're old enough to make decisions about smoking or drinking or voting or serving in the millitary be my guest. You want to be hypocrites and tell them to say no to drugs with one face after you've been popping pills in their mouths with your other face for years to make them managable so you can get back to your own depression and pop your own pills, more power to you.

This isn't the only way out. This is the easy way out. I hope people deep down realize this and when their kids grow up and there left wondering if they've done a disservice to their children and always wonder just how far they could have gone had they not been put on the pill.

If your children are on the pill, they are doomed to be EXACTLY like everyone else in the herd...... merely docile puppets and yes-men.

G23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate indeed.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:31 PM

PENGUIN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
http://app1.unmc.edu/PublicAffairs/TodaySite/sitefiles/today_full.cfm?
match=3248


You have GOT to see this!





Calvin & Hobbes Snow art....

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~xiet/calvin_and_hobbes_snow_art_gallery/index.h
tml





King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:34 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Where/who is this from?



Mark Twain.

Thought it was kinda Firefly-ish.
(Though I didn't realized it was a shortened version, got it from a list of quotes.)

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:38 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

If your children are on the pill, they are doomed to be EXACTLY like everyone else in the herd...... merely docile puppets and yes-men.




Dude, if you knew my brother (who, as I said, did take Ritalin for years) you'd know how hard I just laughed at that statement.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


6String- huh???

Hmmm... let's see. Which would I rather do? Watch my kid have seizure after seizure until she becomes a mute, trembling shell who gets lost in her own house, seeing every spark of intelligence and personality disappear into a morass of confusion and disorientation... or give her DRUGS?

I dunno.... tough choice.


BTW- Altho CALVIN is an imaginative and some would say hyperactive character, let's not confuse the character- who I love - with the creator or with real children. Bill Watterson is a methodical person who can sit for hours thinking about the same thing... here he is on the creative process:

http://cabcalvinandhobbes.tripod.com/ch_process.htm



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:47 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
here is simply no talking sense into anybody who is pro-mind altering drugs



There is also no talking sense into someone so wrapped up in your own opinion that you can't understand that these drugs help people. The amazing thing is that there are people on this board AND IN THE POSTS YOU HAVE MADE that have stated unequivocally that the drugs have helped make them functional in society, yet you insist that giving these kids a chance to succeed in life is a bad thing.

Quote:

you want to be hypocrites and tell them to say no to drugs with one face after you've been popping pills in their mouths with your other face for years to make them managable


Ritalin is no where near as bad as coke, heroin or meth. And as for weed, shrooms, LSD and the like, as long as my kids don't go overboard I see no reason to not let them use them, though I would never OFFICIALLY support the use of illegal drugs.

Quote:

This isn't the only way out. This is the easy way out


Very true, but the other ways can take months if not years and will likely be no where near as effective. In the meantime the kid is still falling behind and causing problems and setting themselves up for a life of failure and hardship. I would be interested to know if you have actually had a close friend or family member who has\had ADD, my guess is that you haven't.

Quote:

If your children are on the pill, they are doomed to be EXACTLY like everyone else in the herd...... merely docile puppets and yes-men.


Bullshit.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:59 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL


Listen Jack, you have your opinion, we have ours. You keep saying your done debating this and that we're insane for putting children on medication, but you just keep on talking.

Stop it.

I'm sick of it. You don't want kids over medicated, fine. I'm with you, but you do not deny someone the care they need to function. You would have preferred me be a high school flunky? Cause I could have done that. I went to night school so I could get the credits I needed to graduate with my class. How's that sit for you? How about cycling in and out of college for eight years...As when I had meds and Fs when I didn't. Or shall we check my work history? Just let it go. Some of us need our brains chemically balanced. Okay?

btw, I'm so far outside the box you could never drug me enough to put me even near it. You're never gonna find anyone like me.

I'm done. Bye.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


6String- let me give you an example of how very wrong you are about drugs disabling people.

I take antidepressants because years of unremitting stress finally drove my brain chemistry bonkers. Not only does it help me cope with and plan for my daughter's future in a VERY predatory society without universal health care, it also helps me....

...here's the kicker....

....change society by becoming politically active and- if necessary- plan for the day when we might up and move someplace else far away, where people know that civilization and society are good things.

You're in more of a box than we are. You're in a box of your own opinion, undistorted by reality

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:50 PM

SIMONWHO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
You're in more of a box than we are. You're in a box of your own opinion, undistorted by reality



Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

Calvin and Hobbes rules, doubly so as Bill Watterson didn't sell out. The strip posted at the top of the page is basically someone insulting an artist, particularly when they can't even execute the insult very well.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
There is also no talking sense into someone so wrapped up in your own opinion that you can't understand that these drugs help people. The amazing thing is that there are people on this board AND IN THE POSTS YOU HAVE MADE that have stated unequivocally that the drugs have helped make them functional in society, yet you insist that giving these kids a chance to succeed in life is a bad thing.



Of course it helped them. Would you continue to pay for and use something you didn't believe was helping you? I have no doubts as to the potency of the drugs. I never said they were placebos.

Quote:

Ritalin is no where near as bad as coke, heroin or meth. And as for weed, shrooms, LSD and the like, as long as my kids don't go overboard I see no reason to not let them use them, though I would never OFFICIALLY support the use of illegal drugs.


Never tried LSD Heroin or Meth before.... so I couldn't speak to them... otherwise I can't argue your point one way or the other. I'm happen to be very pro-weed though, and I have no problem stating that officially. Aside from its many medical benefits and the industrial uses of hemp, it aids in the creative process and, let's face it, its basically illegal for the simple reason that any one of us could grow enough seasonally in our tomato gardens to last us all year, with a surplus. How many people would be clammoring for drugs from Big Pharm if we were all able to medicate ourselves?

I still laugh about the day that 'somebody' planted pot seeds in the police station garden and it took them quite a while to even notice that they were growing their own stash. I'm guessing that it was a concerned citizen that had to point it out to them. Big dummies.

Quote:

Very true, but the other ways can take months if not years and will likely be no where near as effective. In the meantime the kid is still falling behind and causing problems and setting themselves up for a life of failure and hardship. I would be interested to know if you have actually had a close friend or family member who has\had ADD, my guess is that you haven't.


I know my Mom and step-father are both on Prozac, and they're unbearable shits. As I said before, I'm positive that doctors would tell me that I have ADD or ADHD. I do know other people who think they have ADHD, but because I don't believe in ADD or ADHD this point is moot.

My mind focuses on a million different things a day and sometimes it really is hard to focus on what's important. I happened to get really good grades in school growing up, but only because I was able to hyperfocus on something (my studies) and neglect everything else (social behavior, relationships). This is simply the way my mind works and I refuse to believe it's a disorder because somebody trying to sell me pills says that it is.

All of those good grades I got growing up haven't done shit for me. My brother got straight C's and D's and we both work together at the same job now. He always had tons of friends wheras I really only ever had a few. Nearly straight A's through 12 years of public school (what a joke) and I've got a $32,000/yr job babysitting computers and talking to you everyday and a shitty 8 year old car and an apartment. I have to constantly watch stupid assholes move up because of who they know. I don't have any such connections.

I could have been learning a trade growing up and had been on my way to mastering it by now if I wasn't forced to go to school. I think that these kids with supposed problems, as I've said before, are gifted. Insted of feeding them pills we should find a way to make their minds work for them, and for society. They are not broken, the system is broken. Putting a kid that has a hard time focusing on meaningless bullshit in a textbook by feeding them pills is just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Give me something I'm interested in and I can give it my undivided attention for practically every waking minute for months at a time, but put a Math or Chemestry book in front of my face and I could read that page 1,000 times and still not have a clue what it says. I don't see any problem with that. I'm sure I could take a pill and make it all go away, but I choose not to and thankfully I'm old enough that parents weren't handing pills out to kids like candy to shut them up back then.

Quote:

Originally posted by Signym:
Hmmm... let's see. Which would I rather do? Watch my kid have seizure after seizure until she becomes a mute, trembling shell who gets lost in her own house, seeing every spark of intelligence and personality disappear into a morass of confusion and disorientation... or give her DRUGS?



As for your child, this is a completely different beast, and I think you know that I can differentiate the two. Hell, even Tom Cruise wouldn't object to your child taking meds. Your child has severe physical symptoms because of some sort of disorder and the pills make sure they don't have these seizures anymore. Of course I don't want to see your child foaming at the mouth. I know that was a rhetorical question, but come on. Love me or hate me, I'm not a heartless bastard.

Quote:

BTW- Altho CALVIN is an imaginative and some would say hyperactive character, let's not confuse the character- who I love - with the creator or with real children. Bill Watterson is a methodical person who can sit for hours thinking about the same thing... here he is on the creative process:



Yeah, Watterson sounds a lot like me when I find something that I enjoy. It would be nice to find something that I really enjoy and could get paid for. I'm willing to bet that in many other aspects of his life he may have a very hard time focusing and keeping it all together.

As for confusing Calvin with real children, I'm not sure why you couldn't equate Calvin with them. I had a very overactive imagination when I was a child. I was the kid at recess who always made up new games to play every day, and I didn't even ever have any imaginary friends myself. I know that other kids do to and that's pretty imaginative. I'm not really sure what you meant here.

Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Dude, if you knew my brother (who, as I said, did take Ritalin for years) you'd know how hard I just laughed at that statement.



Glad I could bring a smile to your face. I still think there are may other avenues that could have been chosen and that that was the easiest one. I'm truely glad to hear that he chose to get off of them and that he is keeping it together on his own. This speaks volumes of his character and his sense of individuality and strength. You should be very proud of him, and it sounds like you are. I don't hear about that nearly as often as I'd like.

Quote:

Thatweirdgirl:
Listen Jack, you have your opinion, we have ours. You keep saying your done debating this and that we're insane for putting children on medication, but you just keep on talking.

Stop it.



Ha! Make me girl. I can't make the voices shut up, so I hope you have better luck.

Quote:

I'm sick of it. You don't want kids over medicated, fine. I'm with you, but you do not deny someone the care they need to function. You would have preferred me be a high school flunky? Cause I could have done that. I went to night school so I could get the credits I needed graduate with my class. How's that sit for you? How about cycling in and out of college for eight years...As when I had meds and Fs when I didn't. Or shall we check my work history? Just let it go. Some of us need our brains chemically balanced. Okay?


I'm glad that we can at least agree that there is overmedication occuring, even if we won't ever come to an agreement as to the actual level of overmedication. There needs to be a lot more responsibility when handing out this medication by all parties involved, and the notion somebody brought up about asking a 9 year old what they think about pills is really cute, but come on. Let's ask them if they want to have sex or smoke a cigarette or do a shot of vodka while we're at it.

It sounds to me like you took the night classes and did what you needed to do to graduate. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, other than you did what you needed to get where you feel you need to be. If that was your point, good for you. You should be proud of yourself. You're talking to a guy that's never even gotten his Associates degree, hence I'm doomed to be in a bullshit lower level job forever unless I come up with my own way of making money, so I can relate to the eight years of college. I hope you got your degree. After three attempts at college I've finally decided that if I ever go back, it will be only to learn about subjects that I find interesting, mostly Literature, Philosophy, Art and Humanities. My absolute inability to focus on and learn math ensures that I will never get a degree at college anyhow. I remember when we blamed that on right brain/left brain thinking and we didn't call it ADHD.

I'm alright with the fact that I'll never learn Math and that I have zero interest in it. I know I'm smart enough to figure out how to be a success without thier degrees that they give to just about any drunken idiot kid today anyhow. Most of the people that I know with degrees either have a union job or work delivering pizzas or do the same stupid bullshit I do everday, so I really don't feel as if I missed anything other than some really cool parties.

I know about outside the box. Just because I'm not on pills doesn't mean that I don't have problems. Hell, the only reason I'm pretty sure that I'm not crazy is because I can't even remember the last day where I didn't question my own sanity. I'm pretty sure I could give you a run for your money. We disagree on this, partly anyhow, but I think that you and I are much more alike than you might think.

Quote:

Originally posted by Signym:
I take antidepressants because years of unremitting stress finally drove my brain chemistry bonkers. Not only does it help me cope with and plan for my daughter's future in a VERY predatory society without universal health care, it also helps me....



I think it's more that you live in a society that has made things so easy for us (regarding menial tasks we needed to do everyday to survive) that you have plenty of free time to think about how shitty things are. They used to say that work is good for the soul, but most of us don't know about that anymore. I'm at work now, but this is not work. Sitting at a computer for 12 hours a day, going blind and getting fat sitting here. Trust me, I have plenty of times to think about how shitty my life or my family is. It was much harder work, but I never felt bad about much when I was building garages for a living. I was too busy and exhausted to feel bad about it.

Quote:

....change society by becoming politically active and- if necessary- plan for the day when we might up and move someplace else far away, where people know how that civilization and society are good things.


Well, I really can't do anything but take your word on this. If it worked for you, great. You're certainly old enough to voluntarily take the PAX. My problem isn't with adults making this decision. My problem comes from parents feeding kids the pills that will, in turn, feed their own kids the pills and so on and so on. My problem is massive acceptance of the pills one day becomming mandatory usage of the pills. If you think this is paranoid ravings, I can't say I blame you, but I have been a big sci-fan like my old man ever since I was a kid. Many of the inventions and politics which were theoretical and seemed impossible when I was 5 and 10 years old are already in play today. When I saw Minority Report it scared the crap out of me. The only thing that I don't believe we will see in the future that we saw in that movie was the PreCogs, which were the main focus of the story. I'm quite certain that the powers that be would unleash a PAX on us someday if they weren't able to convince us through several generations of coaxing that pills are good for us, or at the very least, they are better than the alternative insanity that comes with thinking on your own.

Quote:

You're in more of a box than we are. You're in a box of your own opinion, undistorted by reality


I know you are, but what am I? This could go on for years. Maybe I do live in my own box. I want you to know that you are completely free to go on thinking this if you'd like, but just know that I'm not going to change my opinion that you are the one living inside of their box.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:37 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You seem intent on making distinctions that may not exist.

What is a seizure but brain activity going awry and causing abnormal behavior? How is that different from other brain acitvity that may be going wrong and causing abnormal behavior?

You seem to think that a lot of this is a matter of choice, of individuality, and will. Those all sound like reasons 'thunk' up by someone who is fairly oppositional. That NOT conforming is your primary goal no matter what the problem.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:38 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Of course it helped them. Would you continue to pay for and use something you didn't believe was helping you? I have no doubts as to the potency of the drugs. I never said they were placebos.



But you have said that they don't help people.

Quote:

let's face it, its basically illegal for the simple reason that any one of us could grow enough seasonally in our tomato gardens to last us all year, with a surplus


Actually weed is illegal because at one time the bigshots in the cotton and tobacco industries had relatives in Congress. Instant illegality.

Quote:

I know my Mom and step-father are both on Prozac, and they're unbearable shits


Which is of course the sole fault of the drugs right?

Quote:

I do know other people who think they have ADHD, but because I don't believe in ADD or ADHD this point is moot


Damn, and you say that us "science-types" are arrogant, you know better than biochemists and doctors? Whether or not ADD is an actual defect or not isn't really relevant, the issue is that there are people who are not functional in an academic or business setting because of the symptoms that we call ADD. These people recieve treatment to make them functional in those settings so that they can succeed in life.

Quote:

This is simply the way my mind works and I refuse to believe it's a disorder because somebody trying to sell me pills says that it is.


How about because people whos job is to understand the way the human body works say that your chemistry is outside the human norm?

Quote:

All of those good grades I got growing up haven't done shit for me


Grades before college are only really good for getting into college, grades in college are actually important.

Quote:

I could have been learning a trade growing up and had been on my way to mastering it by now if I wasn't forced to go to school


I would not be against an apprenticeship style program personally, the problem is that so many people don't have a clue what they want to do with their lives.

Quote:

I think that these kids with supposed problems, as I've said before, are gifted. Insted of feeding them pills we should find a way to make their minds work for them, and for society. They are not broken, the system is broken


The system isn't broken, it works for 90% (or more) of the people, it is unfortunate that it doesn't work for some people but the needs of the many come before the needs of the few.

Quote:

As for your child, this is a completely different beast, and I think you know that I can differentiate the two


But they are mind-altering drugs, how can you possibly support giving a child mind-altering drugs, you monster.

Quote:

Love me or hate me, I'm not a heartless bastard


And yet you would deny thousands of children the ability to succeed in life.

Quote:

I still think there are may other avenues that could have been chosen and that that was the easiest one


And? Easy, quick and reliable, beats hard, slow and unreliable any day. Most people don't want to spend their entire lives battling an affliction, especially if there is a cure handy.

Quote:

I'm glad that we can at least agree that there is overmedication occuring


No one on either of your posts on the subject has disagreed with this, you just take it way too far.

Quote:

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, other than you did what you needed to get where you feel you need to be


I think the point she is trying to make is that she couldn't have done it without her medication.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:42 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hoo boy...... I hate Scientologists, but I hope we get a few in office that will start regulating this irresponsible drug abuse.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:28 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL




---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:



Awwwwwwww.... just look at him. So tiny and cute and so angry.

Take a pill little guy

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:11 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Those all sound like reasons 'thunk' up by someone who is fairly oppositional.





Just kiddin Rue, in a not really kidding so much kinda way. Thanks for being there to argue with. I grow quite tired of my own voices arguing amongst themselves all day.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:34 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:






My thoughts exactly.


6ix, you really need to learn when to back off.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:41 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


6-string

"... who is fairly oppositional"
"what the fuck did you call me?
Just kiddin Rue, in a not really kidding so much kinda way. Thanks for being there to argue with. I grow quite tired of my own voices arguing amongst themselves all day."

And do you know why I said that? For the same reason I called the speed of light a speed limit for PN. I knew you'd jump for it.

You too have become predictable.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


No, It actually went:

"... who is fairly oppositional"
"That's the pot calling the kettle black.

Just kiddin Rue, in a not really kidding so much kinda way. Thanks for being there to argue with. I grow quite tired of my own voices arguing amongst themselves all day."

Guess you missed that.

I'm glad you've figured me out, because I'm completely unstable and I don't really know which personality is in control at any time.



And who the hell is Sigmanunki anyways? I appreciate that you want to come in here out of nowhere and defend your friends, but may I remind you that nobody in here is pointing a gun to anybody's head and making them read or type anything in the RWED. I will not censor myself and I will not back off. If you can't take the heat...... you know the rest.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


And about Marijuana. Nice to know somebody is finally suing the government for spreading lies:


http://worldandnews.blogspot.com/2007/02/government-sued-for-marijuana
-lies.html


I wonder what else they could be lying to us about.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, February 23, 2007 12:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA


This being one reason why I tend to just plain stop discussing things at a certain point.

Sure, everyone's got an opinion, but no one seems to respect anyone elses and that's problem that leads to all manner of ugly, doesn't it.

While only vaguely related to the topic, something you said Jack, struck on an issue i've struggled with pretty hard in school and life with, concerning math.

A little-known phenomenae that seems to come along and make trouble for folks with the thought process we seem to share, Jack, is commonly known as a Dyscalculic Sequencing Disorder.

Things don't occur to you and me in a 1-2-3-4-5 fashion like they do most people, more like 4-3-5-2-6 and sometimes all at once, which is why we come across to other folk so badly, because all the thoughts rush though at the same time and get tangled with each other during the expression thereof - no harm in it, in fact as far as art or poetry goes, this leads to some pretty decent writings and innovative expression.

But it makes high end math just about impossible, sure - for my own solution I use a high-speed linear common math analysis to solve stuff that most folk would use an equation for, as workarounds go, it's a right good one given the speed with which most Dyscalcs can crunch common math numbers.

As far as getting things across to others goes, especially here, try composing posts in notepad first, and then re-reading start to finish to see if it comes across in recognizable order, which tends to help a lot.

My issue with medicating such a thing personally, is that it would impact one of my sources of income, I do small engine repair at an almost savant level of ability, and any mind-altering meds, even post-surgey painkillers, cut directly into my ability to do the job... so for me that's never an option.

If we're as similar as we seem to be Jack, you might wish to explore small engine and appliance repair, I rather think you'll quickly be shocked by your own aptitude in it.

Just some thoughts.

Oh, yeah... and..

STOP BEIN MEAN TO EACH OTHER
*whew*
Had to get that out... ain't no cause nor reason for it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, February 23, 2007 2:25 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Uhm, Frem you come across OK.

I was yanking Jack's chain a little. Not that I didn't mean what I said, but I was using words that he'd respond to - which he did.


---------------------

6string

You are making judgements on people and situations of which you have NO idea. And when they come back with their own expereinces (about which they have infinitely more knowledge than you) all you do is castigate them. And the only one here making a one-size-fits-all argument would be - you.

If any one of us were saying 'put ALL the little tykes on meds !' you'd have a point. But were not saying that. People are making nuanced arguments about specific problems and individual experiences. Again, the only one making blanket statements is you.

So, here are some of the things you said to people who were so bold as to make extraordinarily limited claims for the potential usefulness of drugs based on their own experience:

Wow! I can't believe the overwhelming positive response to altering our children's behavior and crippling our children's creative development
there is simply no talking sense into anybody who is pro-mind altering drugs
You all want to be slaves to the pharmacuitical companies
f your children are on the pill, they are doomed to be EXACTLY like everyone else in the herd...... merely docile puppets and yes-men

-----------------
Dude, really, who's being an a-hole?



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Friday, February 23, 2007 3:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Uhm, Frem you come across OK.

Trust me, you have no idea how much work goes into making that happen.

It wasn't till I thought about "communicating with the normals"* as an actual skill to be worked at and mastered that I sounded like anything but a ranting lunatic to most folk.

Six isn't pissed that individual, adult people medicate, or see the need to, and choose to - he's pissed about the overblown en-masse medication of kids who in many cases haven't even had a proper diagnoses, something I fully agree with him about, although in long thought on it, I think it oughta be the doctors ass being kicked over it, cause it's downright medically negligent to write a scrip without a proper diagnostic procedure, but that's just my opinion.

For them that truly needs it, fine - but just deploying off-label psychotropics en masse to an entire generation without properly researching the causes of the behavior they're trying to medicate away is dangerous, and a scary kind of dangerous when combined with the nature of Big Pharma and "Mandatory" forced-compliance measures...

It's not that much further down THAT slope to calling opposition to the current social and governmental regime a "disorder" that needs "treatment" muchlike happened in the former soviet union.

And that, Rue... scares the everliving crap out of folk like me and Jack, which causes us to respond in a very aggressive fashion to what we feel is a direct threat to our personhood, so for my own part I forgive the overblown hostility once I understand the cause behind it, just like I do with other folk around here.

It's not in our nature to admit fear of anything, but rather to attack it's cause in hopes of destroying it's ability to harm us.

Folks need to draw a harder line here between the individual, case by case basis on which such medication SHOULD be assessed and dispensed, and the bulk en-masse 'solution' society seems to favor at this time - or there's zero hope of rationally discussing this because those two concepts are mutually exclusive.

I dunno that I really have anything beyond that useful to add here.

-Frem

*No offense intended to anyone, there.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:37 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Folks need to draw a harder line here between the individual, case by case basis on which such medication SHOULD be assessed and dispensed, and the bulk en-masse 'solution' society seems to favor at this time - or there's zero hope of rationally discussing this because those two concepts are mutually exclusive."

That I get. (I also get the 'talking to 'normals' as a special skill, which I also had to learn in order to be able to relate to most people socially. And which is still a 'policy' I maintain, not a natural thing.)

What do you think of letting the child have a say? Kind of like getting glasses - which way this better, this way, or this? There are children who go on medication who are relieved to be on it. Not b/c they're making their parents happy but b/c they're more capable and they feel better.

PS One of the reasons why I don't think meds are so bad is b/c they wear off.


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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:52 AM

JLIN13


no Robot Chicken fans out there? surprised this hasnt shown up


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Friday, February 23, 2007 7:08 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by jlin13:
no Robot Chicken fans out there? surprised this hasnt shown up



They obviously didn't give him enough pills.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 8:34 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Uhm, Frem you come across OK.

Trust me, you have no idea how much work goes into making that happen.



Is it wrong that I was ROFLing to this?

Quote:

he's pissed about the overblown en-masse medication of kids who in many cases haven't even had a proper diagnoses, something I fully agree with him about


And like most of us keep saying, we agree that there is a problem with over medication. The issue that comes up is that he insists that no one should give their children medication, despite the testimonies of several people who say that either they or someone close to them has succeeded in life because of the medication they received.

Quote:

For them that truly needs it, fine - but just deploying off-label psychotropics en masse to an entire generation without properly researching the causes of the behavior they're trying to medicate away is dangerous


But here's the thing while you are trying to figure out WHY, the kids are setting themselves up for a life of failure. I'm pretty sure that there are people looking into WHY, but in the meantime we give out medication to give these kids a shot at being functional in society.

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