REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Fine for being overweight?

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Thursday, May 19, 2011 10:21
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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 3:14 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Overweight welfare claimants in the US state of Arizona face paying $50 (£31) fines if they don't follow a dietary regime laid down by their doctor. Is that fair?

Just as American waistlines - like many in the Western world - continue to expand, so does the budget to meet the associated costs.

Medicaid, the programme which provides healthcare for the poor, costs the US federal and state governments $339bn (£209bn) a year, a figure climbing 8% annually.

The federal government matches state spending on the program, providing as much as $3 for every $1 spent in poorer areas.

Given the size of the budget, it's no surprise that Medicaid has become one of the fiscal battlegrounds in Congress.

Now the state of Arizona is proposing a radical idea. It wants to impose a $50 annual fine for overweight Medicaid recipients who don't follow a strict health regime developed with their doctor.

Smokers and diabetics who ignore their medical advice would also have to pay.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13397306

$50.00 a year would be more symbolic than punitive, but I'm not sure that this would be such a good precedent. "Two cheeseburgers this month? That'll be $25.00 more on your health tax, please."



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 6:03 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

This state never stops finding new ways to shame me.

The fact is that food which is horrible for you is so often much less expensive than healthy foods. Every time I go on a diet I break the bloody budget.

So now we're fining people for being poor. How delightful.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 1:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Y'know, instead of fining people for unhealthy behavior, how about we start REWARDING them for HEALTHY behavior? Keep your weight down, get a break on your health insurance. Get healthy, join a gym (and actually GO to the gym!), get another break, etc.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 2:08 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Or maybe make healthy food cheaper and more available, that would be pretty sweet.

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 2:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm lucky, in that I have some local healthy alternatives that dont' break the bank. They're more expensive, but not prohibitively so. And I've noticed that when eating healthier foods, I also seem to eat LESS food, which is healthier as well!

Warning labels on fast food might be a step in the right direction. Heck, they do it with tobacco and booze. "WARNING: THIS BIG MAC WILL KILL YOU, OR AT LEAST TURN YOU INTO A FATTY-SHIT. ENJOY!"

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 2:57 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Clearly everyone here is way more sensable and reasonable than the majority ofthose making decisions. I think fining is a horrible idea, I mean who decides what is overweight? If someone weighs one pound over the limit do they get the fine? Its just stupidly, yes, I said stupidly on purpose. :)

I like the idea of making healthy foods easier to come by, lots of people would choose healthier options if they were less expensive.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 3:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Riona & all: Wait, it gets worse.

http://www.tgdaily.com/security-features/55993-surveillance-cameras-mo
nitor-food-intake-in-school-cafeterias


Here's a plan - you get fined if you're overweight and the cameras show that you went back for seconds on fatty foods!

I'm all for encouraging healthy eating, and for making healthier choices both available AND affordable. But I'm not big on recording what people eat, even if it's an "opt-in" program, because we all know where that leads, right? 80% sign up (or are signed up), and the school district takes a vote and decides that it would be easier and cheaper to make it an opt-OUT program... then a few years pass and you don't even have the option to opt out; it's just a mandatory program at that point, and nobody is exempt.

Remember when they swore they wouldn't ticket you for not wearing a seatbelt, unless they were already ticketing you for something else? Remember when they said they would never pull people over just for not wearing their seatbelts?

Wanna "fine" people for what they eat? Why not a tax on crap food and soft drinks? It was good enough for booze and tobacco, according to so many voters for so many years! My guess is they'll shit kittens when it's THEIR little sin that gets taxed!

[By the way, that's not an endorsement of a soda tax, merely me pointing out that not many had a problem with it when it was someone else's enjoyment that was being taxed. In fact, they insisted that such taxes were necessary, since alcohol and tobacco are such health hazards to their users. Well, ladies and gentlemen, convince me that a 2-Big Mac-a-day habit is less harmful than a pack-a-day smoking habit. :D ]

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 4:28 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The fact is that food which is horrible for you is so often much less expensive than healthy foods.



I don't know about that. I think it's more that folk don't want to spend the time, or more likely don't have the time, to make healthy food at home.

We bake all our own bread, and make pretty healthy soups, stocks, stews, chili, pasta sauce, etc. in big batches for the freezer using little or no processed stuff, and it's not that expensive. For example, we can make a nice Pizza Margarita for both of us for a couple of bucks, but it takes a couple of hours of time invested in Madame making the dough and freezing it, and me slicing, grating, forming and baking. Pretty much the only 'processed' food we buy is condiments. Of course, being retired, we have the time to make our own stuff.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 4:58 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The fact is that food which is horrible for you is so often much less expensive than healthy foods.



I don't know about that. I think it's more that folk don't want to spend the time, or more likely don't have the time, to make healthy food at home.

We bake all our own bread, and make pretty healthy soups, stocks, stews, chili, pasta sauce, etc. in big batches for the freezer using little or no processed stuff, and it's not that expensive. For example, we can make a nice Pizza Margarita for both of us for a couple of bucks, but it takes a couple of hours of time invested in Madame making the dough and freezing it, and me slicing, grating, forming and baking. Pretty much the only 'processed' food we buy is condiments. Of course, being retired, we have the time to make our own stuff.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Hello,

I certainly don't have the time to spend hours on preparing meals, so that may be a contributing factor.

This has been my experience:

I can load up on starch all day for practically nothing. However, if I want fresh veggies instead, the price starts to shoot way up. When I replace potatoes and rice with fresh greens, I end up spending twice as much on my side items. When my wife does her weightwatchers thing that deducts the smallest amounts of points for fruits (which consequently become a desired snack), I again take a hit on my grocery bill. I normally budget 100 dollars a week for groceries, but this has to jump to 150 when we incorporate fresh veggies and fruits into the diet.

Then there's the white meat. I usually eat cheap beef and pork because I don't like the way chicken is prepared. However, chicken and turkey are both star performers on most diets. My wife loves both when she's trying to trim the fat. But if I want air-chilled poultry, I end up spending 50% more for it.

Desserts are also a pain. I can get cheapo regular ice-cream by the tub, but the diet ice-cream costs twice as much or more, depending on the quality of the sham flavors.

And the lactose-free, fat-free pseudo-milk my wife takes is also much more expensive than my usual 2% choice.

Maybe you guys live near a farm, where fresh greens and fruits and other alternative options are plentiful and cheap. Out here, I've found the prices of quality, healthy foods to be exorbitant. Even the farmer's markets are no price picnic.

But if I'm willing to proverbially eat sh*t and die? Well, I can pare down our grocery budget to just 50 bucks per week if I'm willing to eat the worst, cheapest stuff out there. I bet a lot of economically challenged people do just that.

When twinkies, swiss rolls, and cookies cost less than apples and oranges- when 2 liters of cola costs less than a half-gallon of juice, and when every dollar counts... I can imagine the financial temptation to glom onto the worst crud available. And once you get used to that diet? It can be awfully habit-forming.

There's quite a bit standing between the poor and a good meal, in my opinion.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 6:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, Florida Governor Rick Scott is pushing a bill that would require mandatory drug testing for every Florida resident receiving any kind of public assistance. Y'know, because he's big into libertarianism and tea party values and all.

Given Rick Scott's checkered past, it seems like it would be a more fiscally responsible course of action to pass a law requiring a financial audit of any Medicare-billing company. After all, his company did pay over $2 billion in fines and settlements for Medicare fraud, and pled guilty to 14 felonies, something which you'd think would forever taint him with tea party types, but somehow, while they cry about such spending, and while they whine about government waste, they kinda dig it when a rich prick pulls it off and gets to keep most of the money he steals.

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Tuesday, May 17, 2011 6:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I do think that auditting medicare billing companies would yield more proffit in the end.

And that college thing? Last time I checked college students are generally grown and thus can make their own choices about what they eat and don't eat, its up to them and their own willpower. If someone can't do that on their own then maybe they should live in a different arrangement other than a dorm setting, so they can mannage their portions without the excess-food temptation.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 1:32 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


What "college thing"? The surveillance camera story was dealing with elementary schools.

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Being healthy has its own benefits and rewards. Everyone has pretty much the same choices to make, of what to put into their body.

But what about those who are allergic to...

Doesn't matter. They still have that 'choice' to take something harmful or not.

How pathetic a society we must have, where we need to offer incentives to folks for making the right choices when it comes to food.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:55 AM

BYTEMITE


Tell that to people who are allergic to the stuff that gets put in drinking water. Imagine now that that drinking water tends to show up in lots of places other than tap water, as it's often used in the regional culinary products.

But, I'll give you the point about incentives. Frankly it's not about avoiding fast food entirely, I eat fast food every workday because I only have a thirty minute lunch break and most of that time is spent walking to the place. I eat from places that some of you would consider grade F on the food quality scale, because I can buy lunch for very cheap. I weigh 120 pounds, which is pretty good for my height, and my weight is fairly stable. So the trick is actually finding options where there's less calories and fat, and exerting a little portion control on yourself.

If you go to a fast food place everyday and get a combo meal meant for five people and eat it yourself, you're doing it wrong. Not only is that way too much food and a quick path to obesity, but you're paying much more than you need for your basic sustenance. Obesity from fast food places is actually expensive, medical bill wise and food cost wise.

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:22 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
So now we're fining people for being poor.

Poor people are the ONLY people who are fined.

Do you think Bill Gates or Warren Buffet ever pays a fine of any kind?

Poor people get fined the most. Rich people get fined the least, if at all (depending on your definition of rich). It's always been that way.

(Cause rich people make the laws on what should be fined.)



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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:29 AM

BYTEMITE


One of the many reasons why poor people tend to stay poor.

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 1:18 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Oops, I missed which population demographic that was for. When it comes to little ones I suppose its up to parents whether they want such a program at their child's school. If they vote and decide to have it then I guess they're having it. But they need to not make it manditory because everyone's body is different, some children need more food than others.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 1:56 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
If someone can't do that on their own then maybe they should live in a different arrangement other than a dorm setting,



Most colleges require students to live in the dorms for at least their Freshmen year. Which, due to the transition, is also the time they are most likely to develop new, bad habits. But they don't get a choice on their arrangements.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 1:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Let the fast-food wars begin!


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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:36 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I'm in a somewhat similar position Byte, only I have a hard time limiting my portions. I stayed 165 regular through college (I'm around 6ish, 6'1ish) but this past year I gained 20 lbs to sit around 185ish. I've switched from burger type fastfoods to subs in response. I don't know if it will actually lower my calorie intake, but at least I'll grab more veggies along the way.

I fear I'm going to have to actually learn how to eat healthy or exercise soon... but I'll think more on that when my workload backs off a bit in a couple weeks.

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


My university didn't try to decide where we lived, thank goodness, I'd not go somewhere that bossed me around like that, it isn't their business anyways. I'm sorry that your university was so bossy.

I love fast food, I'm not even going to try and hide it, yum, I like the taste and its cheap. Should someone eat it all the time? Absolutely not. But having some is fine for most folk, for those who shouldn't or don't want to there needs to be lots of other foods around though.

Byte, where do you get vegan fast food?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:39 PM

BYTEMITE


I get bean burritos with no cheese at Taco Bell. Spend about a dollar a day. I asked them when I started buying them and they don't put animal fat in the refried beans. Don't want to know exactly what they put in them instead, but they're just fine for me. The really cheap bean burritos are pretty small, not more than five bites, but that's all you need anyway I think.

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
My university didn't try to decide where we lived, thank goodness, I'd not go somewhere that bossed me around like that, it isn't their business anyways. I'm sorry that your university was so bossy.



In my experience, most of them are. When I enrolled in college, I'd been out of high school for nearly a decade, living on my own for MORE than a decade, and they told me that as a 27 year-old incoming freshman, I was going to have to either (a) live with my parents, or (b) live in the dorm. I explained, calmly, three times, that I had been living on my own since I was 15, and there was no way in hell I would live with my parents, and I wasn't about to be living in the dorm, either, especially since I had a great apartment at a good price (cheaper than the dorm) and knew the owner of the complex and helped look after her elderly mother, who was my neighbor in that complex. That apartment complex owner also owned the restaurant where I worked nights and weekends waiting tables and setting up banquets, and she just took a shine to me and looked out for me.

So we went round and round for a while, and I finally ended up just telling them that I was moving home with my parents. Then I had to call my parents and tell them that from time to time I would be getting mail at their house, and ask if they could please forward it to me without opening it or throwing it away. And of course, that didn't happen - I still had to go by their house and pick up my grade reports and paperwork whenever it came.

Apparently most colleges just can't fathom the idea of somebody taking care of himself and putting himself through school on his own. I worked, I scrimped, I saved, I did not own a car, got everywhere on bicycle or foot, and never took a dime in student loans.

Byte: as for the no-animal-fat thing with the beans, I'd bet they're using veggie oil instead.


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Can't find much worth eating near my workplace, so I bring my lunch. I tried Wendy's salads for a while, until I happened to read the back of the salad dressing packet that came with it: "Calories: 800. Calories from fat: 700."

Awesome. I could've been eating the freaking double with bacon and cheese and had fewer calories and less fat! I haven't eaten at a Wendy's since.

I take my lunch now, and have for the last couple years. Lots of veggies and fresh fruits (I get to take blackberries next week, since mine are just about ripe for the picking! Next year I'm putting in strawberries, too!), and an occasional sandwich or slice of pizza.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:48 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That's good that you can get something easily at Taco Bell Byte.

Quicko, why in the world did you start living alone at 15, that seems unnecessarily young to me, but I don't know your situation, so its possible that you were in a hard spot. At the university I went to they couldn't have cared less where the students lived, as long as their tuition got paid no one cared what you did. I like that. My college had a lot of nontraditional students, people from 18 to 70 and onwards, its a city university, with bachelor's, masters and doctoral studies and such a variety of students from every walk of life.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Riona: Long story, none of it very fun. On my own was definitely the best thing for me.

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Thursday, May 19, 2011 10:21 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Having been one amongst a neighborhood of them, my observation is that generally the working poor don't have a lot of time to shop for and prepare the cheaper fresh food, as they rush from job to job with brief stops at home. I can see how quick, cheap, starchy and greasy pre-prepared foods and fast foods can become a staple.

It would be nice if healthy, nutritious fast foods that were as cheap as the junk was available.

AnthonyT
About that getting accustomed to fast foods and having a hard time stopping -
If you read the book written by David Kessler, the former head of the FDA (called 'The End of Overeating') he references many studies that show the brains of ~ 40% of people light-up to fat, sugar and starch, and/ or salt in the same places and the same way as drug addicts react to cocaine, nicotine, heroin and other addictive drugs. Food can be a genuine addiction.

And as a general observation, it's too bad we feed our kids those things early on in life, addicting the susceptible ones among them before they have a chance to make an informed decision. We might as well be giving them crack. And then shaking our heads and wondering why they choose it later on in life.

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