REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Christian Fundamentalists and the Rise of the Radical Right

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, August 1, 2011 13:05
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Monday, July 11, 2011 8:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Regarding the increase in hate groups recently, I found this, which I think is apropos:
Quote:

Fundamentalist Christian churches are growing in membership and influence despite holding views that are incompatible with any reasonable understanding of our world and how it works. Their intellectual schizophrenia allows them to hold beliefs that are incompatible with the world view that depends on the conclusions and implications of science that we (and they!) rely on daily to function in the modern world. They deny the fundamental premises and conclusions of geology, biology, physics, anthropology, archaeology and astronomy. They deny a world view that most of us take for granted.

The growth of these Fundamentalist groups is counter-intuitive, but may be an unfortunate consequence of a serious decline in general literacy and in the quality, breadth and scope of liberal arts education in the United States. What is particularly disturbing about this anti-intellectual trend is that members of these fundamentalist groups hold views with implications that are dangerous and destructive for our civilization, for our nation, for world peace, and for human rights and freedoms. [ed. note: We will expand on this particular issue in a subsequent article.]

What is the appeal of these fundamentalist religious groups? They are strikingly similar once you get beneath the surface and their shared characteristics may help explain their wide and growing appeal.

Their “closed" belief system provides simple answers to complex political and social problems, but more importantly fundamentalist provides simplistic answers to ultimate questions of meaning and existence. Simplicity helps their adherents resolve the ultimate “problem” of being human, what Existentialists call angst (or ultimate anxiety). Angst means the consciousness of death-- the awareness of being human, of mortality, of non-being. It is comforting to have answers to life’s deepest questions and Fundamentalism provides relief from angst by postulating that there is some form of continued existence in an afterlife after death.

Fundamentalist Christians believe that there is a world beyond our world of experience [“heaven”] in which the injustices and evils of this world will finally be overcome and their God (and ultimate good and ultimate justice) will triumph over the unavoidable evil and injustice of our experience. They view our world as a cosmic struggle with stark contrasts between the antagonists: black and white, good and evil, God and Satan, good guys and bad guys, allies and enemies, us and them—a world in which the religious believer is on the side of right and has a duty to “fight evil” as they define it from their particular vantage point. Fundamentalists have a deep emotional commitment to the ultimate truth and virtue of their particular religious beliefs, which remain unaffected and unreachable by relevant fact, rational argument, daily experience or common sense.

Many of these religious groups combine their fundamentalist religious ideas with a wide range of far right political, economic and social agendas. In the past five years or so these right wing religious-political alliances have used political power aggressively and with considerable success in their attempt to impose their political, social and economic philosophy, their standards of public conduct, and their moral values on the rest of society.

This potent combination of having the answers, knowing what is good and evil, standing on the side of right in a cosmic struggle against the forces of darkness, believing in a world beyond this one, being totally committed to their cause, and using political power to realize their objectives makes them troublesome to deal with in our pluralistic society -- and sometimes it makes them dangerous.

Religious fundamentalists -- whether Islamic, Jewish or Christian -- seem to have few scruples and no moral difficulty using political and police power to force citizens who do not agree with them to live by their social, political or religious rules. Some of the more extreme among them have no difficulty using and justifying the use of force (including deadly force and torture) against those who oppose them or their objectives or whoever they determine to be their enemies.

There is little to distinguish the bomb thrower at a family planning clinic in Atlanta, from the Israeli settler tossing a bomb into the home of a Palestinian family, or the Sunni bomber blowing up a Shiite mosque in Iraq..

Regrettably the frequency of the link between religious fundamentalism and terrorism is not all that surprising if we look at the history of religions, particularly in the Western world.

I want to be clear about the way I use the word terrorism because it is easy to get carried away with the imagery and so dilute the full impact of the picture that word should bring to mind. I mean terrorism in its most precise meaning – the use of deadly force against others in an attempt to achieve political goals, frequently under cover of a religious or other ideological rationale or justification.

In the early days of our own country our forefathers endured the religious excesses of the self- righteous Puritan leaders of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, who were quick to punish with enthusiasm (and apparently with an easy conscience) anyone who transgressed their strict behavioral rules defining upright and moral conduct. They had no qualms about burning witches — and their definition of witches seems to have been broad enough that almost any woman who got out of line could find herself burned at the stake by the good Christians of the time, who argued that such barbaric punishment was justified because it ridded their community of great potential evil. These good Christian men (and they were all men!) were confident they were doing god’s work and so they acted with untroubled consciences.

People do terrible things in the name of religion. The arrogance and self-righteousness that presumes to know the mind and will of god is not only self-delusion, it is the cause of much evil in our world.

Watching a recent PBS series on the history of the Papacy I was struck by how essentially evil many of the early popes were – how cavalierly they ruled, how combative they were with whatever secular political force opposed their authority, how immoral many of them were in their personal lives, how often they abused their vows and ignored their duties, how easily they used and abused the power of the Church as they extended their domination both politically and religiously, how greedily they grabbed lands for themselves to build empires both political and financial, how cruelly they treated anyone who opposed their rule, how viciously they dealt with those whose religious beliefs differed from their own, how easily they let debates about the nature of Christ turn into battles over religious turf, political territory and power, how arrogant they were when they presumed to be infallible in matters of faith and morality, how viciously they attempted to force their truth on others, how little they seemed to value humility and virtue.

The Inquisition was an unfortunate time in the history of the Christian Church, when the Popes and their obedient soldiers the Jesuits implemented a plan to purify the Church from unorthodox teachings, particularly teachings about the source of authority for political power and religious teaching (which the Church said lay in the Pope). The object of the Inquisition was to identify wrong belief and conduct using torture as an instrument of the church to save the souls of those unfortunate individuals who had errant beliefs by torturing them until they recanted their error and accepted the true teaching of the Church.

As late as the 1930s we are reminded how easily the dangerous alliance of religion and politics led the Catholic Church into a moral compromise with fascism, as Pope Pius XII negotiated a deal with Mussolini to ensure that the Church kept its land holdings in Rome, now Vatican City, in exchange for an agreement that the Church would stay out of politics in the rest of Italy. We are surprised to hear the Church’s excuse that its compromise was a necessary bargain with the devil in order that a greater good might result. In that same period of time we also saw how easily the Nazis co-opted the Protestant churches of Germany into acquiescence with Nazi practices in exchange for their survival as a state church.

It is amazing that early Christianity survived these unlikely church leaders to become the dominant religion of the Western world. Despite its ill-informed and badly-behaving leaders, Christianity has become the most significant influence in the development of the basic humanitarian, moral and social values of the Western world of today. We look, so far in disappointment, for those who define themselves as Christian leaders today to do better than their predecessors in speaking truth to power.

The lesson here is that for someone with religious authority and political power to believe that he knows the will of God and that he/she is the instrument of God to confront evil and to build god’s kingdom on earth is the product of arrogance and self-delusion. In Christian theology, that self-delusion is precisely what is meant by the concept of sin.

History continues to repeat itself. The arrogance and self-delusion of the powerful that they alone know what is good for others applies to President Bush, who has said on several occasions that he believes that he was chosen at this time and place to be the instrument of God to lead America and to bring democracy and Western values to the Middle East. The self-delusion of the powerful when combined with a sense of theocratic mission and a lack of Christian humility and self-criticism is particularly dangerous in a political leader in a democracy.

If there is anything that the history of Christianity teaches us, it is that power tends to corrupt those who have it. That unhappy combination of political power and religious authority has been responsible for a great deal of mischief in our world and it continues to wreak havoc on us today.

http://christianhumanist.net/Christian.aspx

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Monday, July 11, 2011 8:41 AM

BYTEMITE


You know, I'd consider myself humanist if they didn't get so uppity about other belief systems (and if they weren't a globalist secular movement).

It seems like no matter what belief system someone has, it's impossible to not react with mockery and condescension towards other belief systems. Particularly by writing long essays that no one else but someone with an axe to grind could be able to make it through.

Do I feel sometimes Christians try to force their views on me? Yes. Do I think belief is irrational? Yes.

Do I think fundamentalist Christians are anti-intellectual?

Well, let me think. Charles Darwin, Mendel... So on, so on, so on...

In short, I think that essay is actually complaining about a number of different issues, and is decidedly agenda laden. Perhaps both secular government AND religion are equally untrustworthy.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 9:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Never said it wasn't agenda laden. I agree with it, so thought it might be interesting to discuss. That's all.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, July 11, 2011 9:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Ah. Then ignoring the undertones here, the article may have a point that the quality of the modern Christian Fundamentalists is much reduced compared to past Christian Fundamentalists. At least the old ones, by necessity of representing most of the population of Europe through the last millenium, had some philosophers, scientific researchers, and breakthrough inventors, beyond being extreme Christians.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 9:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, July 11, 2011 10:11 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


As much as it may bug you , Niki, there ARE Christians about in this country.

I know, I know... silly folk who believe in an imaginary sky father, it bugs me too. But what are ya gonna do ?




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 11:25 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Not much good at subtleties, are you? There is a vast difference in beliefs throughout Christendom, from those who follow the spiritual teachings of Christ to those who believe that the Bible is literally the word of God and must be followed to the enth degree (although I have notice that fundies pick and choose what they follow).

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Monday, July 11, 2011 11:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Christians I can deal with. Muslims who believe their holy book should be followed to the nth degree... thems I have problems with.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 11:55 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


So you don't mind Christians who believe their holy book should be followed to the letter, but you despise Muslims if they believe the same?

Interesting

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Monday, July 11, 2011 12:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
So you don't mind Christians who believe their holy book should be followed to the letter, but you despise Muslims if they believe the same?

Interesting



Muslims tend to act more on their beliefs, in violent fashion, than do Christians.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 1:02 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


hmmmmm- history is replete with examples that prove you otherwise, as the article Niki posted demonstrate.

Believing in absolutism, and having your beliefs backed up by an all powerful being leads people down the path to not only stupidity, but violence in the name of your beliefs...that is what the article warns about. This kind of thinking is potentially dangerous, no matter who does it. You might feel comforted that the growth in fundamental lunacy in the states kind of reflects your beliefs, but for others who don't hold that view, its just more kinds of dangerous.


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Monday, July 11, 2011 1:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
hmmmmm- history is replete with examples that prove you otherwise, as the article Niki posted demonstrate.




We're living in the here and now. More people have died from Islamic extremism in the last 5 years than the last 100 or even 200 years of Christian extremism.

Hell, make it 300 years. It's not even close.

So spare me the game of equivalence. I'm not buying it.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 1:59 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


That simply is not true. Not in any way true. This ridiculous statement demonstrates your lack of knowledge of history as well as current events. It's not even true that Muslims have currently killed more Christians. We're beating them by huge margin. How many dead as a result of 2 US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan - which they see as a religious war and which given Bush's fundie support is at least partially true? Compared to a few thousand as a result of some home made car bombs. It's laughable.

There is nothing inherently more violent about the Muslim faith than the Christian faith. Both can be followed peacefully, and both can be used as an excuse to enact violence on non believers. The issue is not about the faith, but about the kind of people who are fanatical about their beliefs.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 2:26 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think that we can all agree that extremism can be really dangerous and that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I saw the agenda in that article too Byte. It did, towards the end, have some points though that I agree with, the misuse of power and the truth of how one can claim to be following God and then in the next move do horrid things that I would never imagine God approving of.

And Puritans? Yeah, they scare me too. And the idea of anyone going along with Hitler to get their way grosses me out.

I noticed that most of the bias stuff was at the beginning of the article, thoughts?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, July 11, 2011 3:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, I tend to agree more than prolly the rest of you with the original post, having come face to face with some of the real ugliness of that belief, not the least of which is the Assembly of God bastards and the fact that taxpayer money is funneled hand over fist into their coffers and then used to fund Hellcamps, and other nefarious business, under the paper thin fiction of faith based charity, of which in actuality they offer none.

Not to mention the tax breaks, which other beliefs do not get, not to mention the motherfucking blue laws, not to mention the legal enforcement of moral codes that not everyone subscribes to...
Or the rabid crusaderism among both our own military, and the mercs we hire (Blackwater, DynCorp, Triple Canopy), which also serves to further inflame folks who already have some pretty legit gripes against us...
Not to mention scumbags like Dobson encouraging people to abuse and mistreat women and children...
Not to mention the wholesale assault on womens rights...

Ok, PERSONALLY, you and me, that's you and me - if I know you, as a person, and you don't support that shit nor consider them a part of your belief, fine.

But so long as these dicks are accepted and condoned by the greater part of that belief, then they ARE that belief - and every bit the monsters I call them out to be, which only stands to reason when they're serving a horrible creature which feeds on human misery like a junkie feeds on heroin.

Which is how I feel - you don't have to agree with me, mind you, but that I am offended by them, and their behavior towards humanity isn't something you got any say over save at a personal level - believe me, some of my strongest allies have self-identified as Christian, which considering how monstrous I consider most of their so-called "values" to be, always struck me as ironic given that compassion and empathy don't seem to be among them for most folk.

Individually, that's a personal thing - but AS A GROUP, AS A COLLECTIVE...
To me, they're an enemy of humanity and it's potential.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 3:08 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


My thoughts are that the author is prejudiced against fundamentalists. But I guess that's okay, cause they are Christians, and hating them is kind of in vogue.

The author could have made an effective point on how extremism and the assumption of divine authority can be a dangerous combination. It could have challenged these various fundamentalist groups to re-evaluate how violence relates (or more accurate doesn't relate) to their beliefs and what it accomplishes. But, as is clearly evident, the author has an axe to grind with the Christian Fundamentalist, labeling them as 'anti-intellectual' and basing the argument on hypothetical situations and outdated sources from a more violent time in our world's history.

I'm not fundamentalist, least aways not by the functional pop-definition of it, but I am pretty sure the book we both read does not instruct us to rebuke science and burn witches. More over, it does not instruct us to judge others or to 'fight evil.' It does not advocate violence of any kind. It tells us to love, to forgive, and to not forget how deserving we aren't of the gifts we've been freely given.

Frankly, I find the article arrogant and offensive.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 3:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


MD, you're flat out wrong.

The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were not, in any way, religiously motivated. So you claims are completely invalid.

More muslims have killed muslims in Iraq than western forces have killed muslims. That's a fact.

The current fanaticism of muslims in undeniably more violent than anything found across the world w/ christians.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 3:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
My thoughts are that the author is prejudiced against fundamentalists. But I guess that's okay, cause they are Christians, and hating them is kind of in vogue.


This is immensely disingenuous on your part. It's a bit like saying that you dislike Obama because that is the vogue, or that you are prejudiced against demoncrats. It is entirely possible to dislike an organisations because of it values, beliefs and actions and it not be prejudical - which implies unreasonable or unfounded dislike.

Quote:

The author could have made an effective point on how extremism and the assumption of divine authority can be a dangerous combination. It could have challenged these various fundamentalist groups to re-evaluate how violence relates (or more accurate doesn't relate) to their beliefs and what it accomplishes.


You mean like this

Quote:

What is the appeal of these fundamentalist religious groups? They are strikingly similar once you get beneath the surface and their shared characteristics may help explain their wide and growing appeal.

Their “closed" belief system provides simple answers to complex political and social problems, but more importantly fundamentalist provides simplistic answers to ultimate questions of meaning and existence. Simplicity helps their adherents resolve the ultimate “problem” of being human, what Existentialists call angst (or ultimate anxiety). Angst means the consciousness of death-- the awareness of being human, of mortality, of non-being. It is comforting to have answers to life’s deepest questions and Fundamentalism provides relief from angst by postulating that there is some form of continued existence in an afterlife after death.



or this

Quote:

Religious fundamentalists -- whether Islamic, Jewish or Christian -- seem to have few scruples and no moral difficulty using political and police power to force citizens who do not agree with them to live by their social, political or religious rules. Some of the more extreme among them have no difficulty using and justifying the use of force (including deadly force and torture) against those who oppose them or their objectives or whoever they determine to be their enemies.

There is little to distinguish the bomb thrower at a family planning clinic in Atlanta, from the Israeli settler tossing a bomb into the home of a Palestinian family, or the Sunni bomber blowing up a Shiite mosque in Iraq..



or this

Quote:

The lesson here is that for someone with religious authority and political power to believe that he knows the will of God and that he/she is the instrument of God to confront evil and to build god’s kingdom on earth is the product of arrogance and self-delusion. In Christian theology, that self-delusion is precisely what is meant by the concept of sin.



Quote:

But, as is clearly evident, the author has an axe to grind with the Christian Fundamentalist, labeling them as 'anti-intellectual' and basing the argument on hypothetical situations and outdated sources from a more violent time in our world's history.

Yes, and quite an important axe to grind give Christian fundamentalist agendas of anti evolution and other scientific thinking, preferring instead to believe (and promoting the beliefs) of mythology and fairytale as fact.

Quote:

I'm not fundamentalist, least aways not by the functional pop-definition of it, but I am pretty sure the book we both read does not instruct us to rebuke science and burn witches. More over, it does not instruct us to judge others or to 'fight evil.' It does not advocate violence of any kind. It tells us to love, to forgive, and to not forget how deserving we aren't of the gifts we've been freely given.

The Bible says a lot of things. It's a collection of writings from over thousands of years. Amongst other things, it outlines rules for living that were social norms of a desert people who lived several millenium ago, and includes a lot of heinous, brutal and downright whacky stuff that reflected the harsh justice system of those people.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)

"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

"Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:24)

Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

"Stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

Deuteronomy was a real barrel of laughs.. So the Bible is full of contradictions, love, hate, war, peace. Fundamentalists have this habit of finding a verse here or there to back up their beliefs, even when they are contradicted elsewhere. Bit like I have.

Quote:

Frankly, I find the article arrogant and offensive.



But then you have a low tolerance of anything that is critical of religion, particularly Christianity, even if it is not directly about your beliefs. So no surprises there.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 3:46 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
MD, you're flat out wrong.

The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were not, in any way, religiously motivated. So you claims are completely invalid.

More muslims have killed muslims in Iraq than western forces have killed muslims. That's a fact.

The current fanaticism of muslims in undeniably more violent than anything found across the world w/ christians.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Really, I'd get more sense having a discussion with my dog.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 3:53 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Yes, and quite an important axe to grind give Christian fundamentalist agendas of anti evolution and other scientific thinking, preferring instead to believe (and promoting the beliefs) of mythology and fairytale as fact.



See, maybe this is inadvertant, but even as an atheist who used to absolutely hate Christianity and to get in fist fights with the jocks at my school mouthing off, this seems too much to me.

People want to believe in stuff like that, it's their prerogative, I think. And yes, I object to fundamentalists forcing their beliefs on others, but I don't object to them believing those beliefs.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 3:56 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


There's a bit of a qualifier there, the term effectively. I think the point could be more effectively presented in a different manner. As to the old testament references, there's this whole new testament thing with this guy call 'Jesus.' I hear he changed a couple of those things and his life is the basis of the 'Christian' religion.

We don't have to agree, I was just voicing my opinion, and my opinion is that is article selects a few events and people to negatively brand an entire group of people, much in he manner you all were accusing Hardware of doing with the 'flash mob' fiasco.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 4:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Really, I'd get more sense having a discussion with my dog.



Smart dog.

What's so bewildering, is that after 9/11, USS Cole, Madrid, London, E. Africa Embassies, Bali, Mumbai, Beslan, Ft Hood, ... after those vicious, senseless attacks and many, many more, you STILL want to paint this theoretical picture where Islam is on equal footing with any other religion in the world today.


There's no reasoning with you. The denseness in your skull is thicker than lead.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 4:35 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Fundamentalist Christian churches are growing in membership and influence despite holding views that are incompatible with any reasonable understanding of our world and how it works.



Well, that was all I needed to read of this to see where it's going.

As a Militant Agnostic, I'm no fan of Fundies, but this statement shows prejudice at least equal to the most bigoted racist homophobic redneck snake handling speaker in tongues I've ever met...and I've met a few. It just uses longer words.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, July 11, 2011 4:43 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Well actually my dog is pretty smart.

There is nothing inherently more violent about Islam than Christianity. Fundamentalists - extremists who believe that they are doing gods work are dangerous people, who can resort to violence. I'm not going to deny there has been a growth in fundamentalism in the Islamic world, because it is true. But that is nothing to do with Islam itself, thats just engine that drives the fanaticism. And it has happened in Christendom, and may happen again. Whole point of the article.

I do believe that the wars in the Middle East were partially religiously driven. George W himself was on a mission from god, as he so proudly states, and I believe that the religious right strongly supported him and his stance in the middle east, even in Israel, because of religious convictions.

Funnily enough, Iraq was a secular state under Hussein, on the surface anyway. The Baathist Party did their best to oppress Islamic practices. Iraq after the invasion is a much more Islamic country than prior, which is ironic. The Taliban grew up out of the chaos following the war and destruction of the 80's in Afghanistan.

Fundamentalism isn't restricted to one type of belief or religion and doesn't happen because of religion - it thrives and prospers in certain environments, including the ones above but I agree with the author. It's dangerous and needs checking.


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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

There is nothing inherently more violent about Islam than Christianity.


And there you have it, folks. MD's inability, unwillingness to step out of the realm of never never land, and into the literal, actual world.

We're not debating on what's inherently / potentially / theoretically here...we're dealing in that ACTUAL. What really IS happening, and what has happened, in our world, in our time, NOW.

You're so programmed, so conditioned to refuse to accept that any ONE thing is any better than/ worse than another, your kool-aid drinking adherence to the PC mindset has completely blinded you.


You're dealing in the text book, debate class construct, and the rest of life is occurring, outside.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:16 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

Yes, and quite an important axe to grind give Christian fundamentalist agendas of anti evolution and other scientific thinking, preferring instead to believe (and promoting the beliefs) of mythology and fairytale as fact.



See, maybe this is inadvertant, but even as an atheist who used to absolutely hate Christianity and to get in fist fights with the jocks at my school mouthing off, this seems too much to me.

People want to believe in stuff like that, it's their prerogative, I think. And yes, I object to fundamentalists forcing their beliefs on others, but I don't object to them believing those beliefs.



I don't have objection if people want to believe in the toothfairy as the all powerful creator of the universe. I might not invite them to dinner....

But the issue with fundamentalism and the Christian right is that they push their agenda. They aren't just holding prayer meetings, they're lobbying hard, and they've got deep pockets which they don't mind digging into to support candidates who will support their hardline on the above issues.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:21 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

There is nothing inherently more violent about Islam than Christianity.


And there you have it, folks. MD's inability, unwillingness to step out of the realm of never never land, and into the literal, actual world.

We're not debating on what's inherently / potentially / theoretically here...we're dealing in that ACTUAL. What really IS happening, and what has happened, in our world, in our time, NOW.

You're so programmed, so conditioned to refuse to accept that any ONE thing is any better than/ worse than another, your kool-aid drinking adherence to the PC mindset has completely blinded you.



Was that more barking I heard, with a bit of a whine in there????

Let us see what you said, "Muslims tend to act more on their beliefs, in violent fashion, than do Christians."

Remember? That's because you speak in moronic soundbites, that its hard for you to argue at all. Did you actually mean "Currently, I'm more worried about the growth in Islamic fundamentalism than Christian fundamentalism" ? and then discuss why that concerned you. Lord no, that would have meant stringing two or more coherent, rational thoughts together.

well I'm off to have a chat with Fido to discuss the impact in the growth in the number of Americans who believe in creationism. Woof.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:29 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
There's a bit of a qualifier there, the term effectively. I think the point could be more effectively presented in a different manner. As to the old testament references, there's this whole new testament thing with this guy call 'Jesus.' I hear he changed a couple of those things and his life is the basis of the 'Christian' religion.

We don't have to agree, I was just voicing my opinion, and my opinion is that is article selects a few events and people to negatively brand an entire group of people, much in he manner you all were accusing Hardware of doing with the 'flash mob' fiasco.



I don't think I accused Hardware of anything at all, if you care to re-read that thread.

You have kind of summed up how I see the difference between Fundamental Christians and mainstream Christians. More mainstream Christians follow the New testament and the teachings of Christ. They might refer or enjoy sections of the Old Testament, but the main teachings for them are in the NT. Fundamentalists see the Bible in its entirety as the word of God, although the lord knows they pick and choose which bits to reference. They use parts of the old Testament to back up a whole host of their beliefs, including how the world was created and how it will end. They don't believe that Genesis is a metaphor or a way of explaining humanity's origins in a time prior to the existence scientific reasoning, but that it is actual fact, word for word. And they are often ambitious for political power. Difficult combination.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:29 PM

BYTEMITE


None? It's not like they or anyone from their families would have gone into science anyway. The only reason there's "growth" among them is because they have more children than some other demographics.

If US research has gone down, it's because of 1) complacency 2) distracting entertainment technology, and 3) outsourcing research and development. Not really because some people who were probably always really religious, or born agains who lived in a community that pressured them, suddenly decided that OMG hate teh science. We've always had those, there's no reason to conclude there was any impact in the past or presently.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


MD ,

You're just pissed off , ashamed and embarrassed that you can't hold your own in this 'debate', and it shows. The childish insults, the dismissive tone...

Why don't you go toe to toe w/ me on this, and we can count how many mass killings have been done in the name of Allah, vs those done in the name of Jesus.

Ready ? Let's go. I'll start...

Beslan school massacre - Russia.

Your turn.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:39 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But the issue with fundamentalism and the Christian right is that they push their agenda. They aren't just holding prayer meetings, they're lobbying hard, and they've got deep pockets which they don't mind digging into to support candidates who will support their hardline on the above issues.


Then we're on the same page.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:45 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


No matey, I can't do numbers in woofer language. It's more in the paw movement and doesn't translate over the net.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:45 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

I don't think I accused Hardware of anything at all, if you care to re-read that thread.


I honestly don't, that thread was a waste of space, but point taken. I used the words 'you all' to address the group at large, not you specifically.

Quote:

You have kind of summed up how I see the difference between Fundamental Christians and mainstream Christians. More mainstream Christians follow the New testament and the teachings of Christ. They might refer or enjoy sections of the Old Testament, but the main teachings for them are in the NT. Fundamentalists see the Bible in its entirety as the word of God, although the lord knows they pick and choose which bits to reference. They use parts of the old Testament to back up a whole host of their beliefs, including how the world was created and how it will end. They don't believe that Genesis is a metaphor or a way of explaining humanity's origins in a time prior to the existence scientific reasoning, but that it is actual fact, word for word. And they are often ambitious for political power. Difficult combination.


Not all Fundamentalist Christians are as you describe. Or perhaps we having varying definitions as to what makes a 'Fundamentalist Christian.' I don't like the way this article stereotypes a group of people and it does concern me how some who claim to be against discrimination appear to be blind to this form of bigotry.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:48 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:

I don't think I accused Hardware of anything at all, if you care to re-read that thread.


I honestly don't, that thread was a waste of space, but point taken. I used the words 'you all' to address the group at large, not you specifically.

Quote:

You have kind of summed up how I see the difference between Fundamental Christians and mainstream Christians. More mainstream Christians follow the New testament and the teachings of Christ. They might refer or enjoy sections of the Old Testament, but the main teachings for them are in the NT. Fundamentalists see the Bible in its entirety as the word of God, although the lord knows they pick and choose which bits to reference. They use parts of the old Testament to back up a whole host of their beliefs, including how the world was created and how it will end. They don't believe that Genesis is a metaphor or a way of explaining humanity's origins in a time prior to the existence scientific reasoning, but that it is actual fact, word for word. And they are often ambitious for political power. Difficult combination.


Not all Fundamentalist Christians are as you describe. Or perhaps we having varying definitions as to what makes a 'Fundamentalist Christian.' I don't like the way this article stereotypes a group of people and it does concern me how some who claim to be against discrimination appear to be blind to this form of bigotry.



Well please don't refer to 'you all' if I am not included in there.
That is my understanding of Fundamentalist Christians, Christians who interpret the Bible literally.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
No matey, I can't do numbers in woofer language. It's more in the paw movement and doesn't translate over the net.



Crassic.

You know you're defeated, humiliated, and so you bail right away, and instead go full court press w/ the juvenile, attempted insults.

Thanks for proving my point.

My work is done here.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 6:13 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Really why should I respond sanely to you. You speak in meaningless cliches. You can't comprehend rational arguments or any argument that is even subtly more complex than 'Muslim bad - Christian good' and you probably add 'ug' to the end of that sentence.

I'm playing with you, Rappy it's cruel I know. Like poking at the village idiot when he's tied to the pole in the square. I must go and repent on my ways and endeavour to do better.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 6:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Really why should I respond sanely to you. You speak in meaningless cliches. You can't comprehend rational arguments or any argument that is even subtly more complex than 'Muslim bad - Christian good' and you probably add 'ug' to the end of that sentence.

I'm playing with you, Rappy it's cruel I know. Like poking at the village idiot when he's tied to the pole in the square. I must go and repent on my ways and endeavour to do better.




Beslan wasn't a "cliche' ", brain donor. It was an actual event. Wanna see the not too pretty pictures ?

Same as Mumbai. Bali, 9/11... you know the drill. Terrorist attack, after terrorist attack, and all you can do is respond with idiocy and moronic insults.

The saddest part of all this, is that you actually think you're getting the better of me here.

Yes, picking sides on such an issue... it's SOOOO Neanderthal, isn't it? Why not be like your obvious hero, AlGore, and make some sort of callous , extra chromosome remark. Seems right up your alley.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 6:30 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


How Wiki describes Fundamentalist Christians

The term fundamentalism was coined by Baptist editor Curtis Lee Laws in 1920 to designate Christians who were ready "to do battle royal for the Fundamentals"; the term quickly was adopted by all sides.

Fundamentalism had multiple roots in British and American theology of the 19th century.[8] One root was Dispensationalism, a rediscovery of early Christian premillennialism in the 1830s in England as an outgrowth of applying the historical-grammatical method of hermeneutics to all of the Bible. It was a millenarian theory that divided all of time into seven different stages, called "dispensations," which were seen as stages of God's revelation. At the end of each stage, according to this theory, God punished humanity for having been found wanting in God's testing. Secularism, liberalism, and immorality in the 1920s were believed to be signs that humanity had again failed God's testing. This means that the world is on the verge of the last stage, where a final battle will take place at Armageddon, followed by Christ's return and 1,000 year reign. [9] An important sign is the rebirth of Israel, support for which is the centerpiece of Fundamentalist foreign policy.

A second stream came from Princeton Theology in the mid-19th century, which developed the doctrine of inerrancy in response to higher criticism of the Bible.[10][11] The work of Charles Hodge influenced fundamentalists' insistence that the Bible was inerrant because it had been dictated by God and written by men who took that dictation. This meant that the Bible should be read differently from any other historical document, and also that modernism and liberalism were believed to lead people to hell just as much as non-Christian religions.[12]

A third strand—and the name itself—came from a 12-volume study The Fundamentals, published 1910-1915.[13] Sponsors subsidize the free distribution of over three million individual volumes to clergy, laymen and libraries. This version.[14] stressed several core beliefs, including:

* The inerrancy of the Bible
* The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles, and the Creation account in Genesis.

* The Virgin Birth of Christ
* The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
* The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross

By the late 1920s the first two points had become central to Fundamentalism.

A fourth strand was the growing concern among many evangelical Christians with the fruits of modernism and the higher criticism of the Bible. This strand concentrated on opposition to Darwinism.

A fifth strand was the strong sense of the need for public revivals, a common theme among many Evangelicals who did not become Fundamentalists.

Numerous efforts to form coordinating bodies failed, and the most influential treatise came much later, in Systematic Theology (1947) by Lewis S. Chafer, who founded the Dallas Theological Seminary in 1924.

Much of the enthusiasm for mobilizing Fundamentalism came from "Bible Colleges", especially those modeled after the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. Dwight Moody was also influential in preaching the imminence of the Kingdom of God that was so important to dispensationalism.[15] The Bible colleges prepared ministers who lacked college or seminary experience with intense study of the Bible, often using the Scofield Reference Bible of 1909, which was the King James version with detailed notes explaining how to interpret Dispensationalist passages.
Organizing the fundamentalists

Fundamentalist movements were found in most North American Protestant denominations by 1919, with the debate between fundamentalists and modernists especially strong in Presbyterian and Baptist churches. Fundamentalism was especially controversial among Presbyterians, and had its greatest strength in the South, especially among Southern Baptists.

The most important leader in organizing a movement was William Bell Riley, a Northern Baptist based in Minneapolis, where his Northwestern Bible and Missionary Training School (1902), Northwestern Evangelical Seminary (1935), and Northwestern College (1944) produced thousands of graduates.

Riley became the leading organizer of the movement for Fundamentalism. He created, at a large conference in Philadelphia in 1919, the World's Christian Fundamentals Association (WCFA). It became the chief interdenominational fundamentalist organization in the 1920s.

Although the fundamentalist drive of the 1920s to take control of the major Protestant denominations failed at the national level, the network of churches and missions fostered by Riley indicates that fundamentalism was growing in strength, especially in The South. Both rural and urban in character, the flourishing movement acted as a denominational surrogate and aimed at a militant orthodoxy of evangelical Christianity.Riley was president until 1929, after which the WFCA faded in importance and was never replaced.[16]
Fighting evolution

Fundamentalists in the 1920s devoted themselves to fighting the teaching of evolution in the nation's schools and colleges. Riley took the initiative in the Scopes Trial of 1925 to bring in famed orator William Jennings Bryan as an assistant to the local prosecutor. The trial revealed a growing chasm in American Christianity and two ways of finding truth, one "biblical" and one "scientific." Liberals saw a division between educated, tolerant Christians and narrow-minded, tribal, obscurantist Christians.[17] Others perceived the division represented by Bryan and Clarence Darrow as one between backward, ridiculous, small-town America (represented by Bryan) and the inevitable shift toward a more cosmopolitan, polished, and intellectual way of approaching both religion and science. Though they were proved wrong, people who considered themselves intellectuals or above the mess of anti-evolution sentiment hoped that fundamentalist religion would fade away and stop making political and educational waves if it were ignored. [18]

Gatewood (1969) analyzes the transition from the anti-evolution crusade of the 1920s to the creation science movement of the 1960s. Despite some similarities between these two causes, the creation science movement represented a shift from religious to scientific objections to Darwin's theory. Creation science also differed in terms of popular leadership, rhetorical tone, and sectional focus. It lacked a prestigious leader like Bryan, utilized scientific rather than religious rhetoric, and was a product of California and Michigan instead of the South.[19]

Edwards (2000) contradicts the conventional view that in the wake of the Scopes trial a humiliated fundamentalism retreated into the political and cultural background, a viewpoint evidenced in the movie "Inherit the Wind" and the majority of contemporary historical accounts. Rather, the cause of fundamentalism's retreat was the death of its leader, Bryan. Most fundamentalists saw the trial as a victory and not a defeat, but Bryan's death soon after created a leadership void that no other fundamentalist leader could fill. Bryan, unlike the other leaders, brought name recognition, respectability, and the ability to forge a broad-based coalition of fundamentalist religious groups to argue for the anti-evolutionist position.[20] The Mainline Protestant denominations refused to join the attacks on evolution, and welcomed modern ideas.

The American Civil Liberties Union at first had no objection to a general Christian outlook in the public schools, as long as it was that of no particular sect. By the time of the Scopes Trial, however, the ACLU and other advocates of the constitutional separation of church and state insisted that public education must not assume any religious outlook.
Other states

Webb (1991) traces the political and legal struggles between strict creationists and Darwinists to influence the extent to which evolution would be taught as science in Arizona and California schools. After Scopes was convicted, creationists throughout the United States sought similar antievolution laws for their states. These included Reverends R. S. Beal and Aubrey L. Moore in Arizona and members of the Creation Research Society in California, all supported by distinguished laymen. They sought to ban evolution as a topic for study or, at least, relegate it to the status of unproven theory perhaps taught alongside the biblical version of creation. Educators, scientists, and other distinguished laymen favored evolution. This struggle occurred later in the Southwest than in other US areas and persisted through the Sputnik era, which inspired increased faith in evolutionism.[21]

bolding mine.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 6:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


cut and paste is not a response.

No matter how many paragraphs you copy, you've still lost the argument.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:10 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
MD, you're flat out wrong.

The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were not, in any way, religiously motivated. So you claims are completely invalid.

More muslims have killed muslims in Iraq than western forces have killed muslims. That's a fact.

The current fanaticism of muslims in undeniably more violent than anything found across the world w/ christians.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Really, I'd get more sense having a discussion with my dog.




That's because your dog is smarter than Rappy. Your dog probably has a better grasp of economics, too. :)

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:12 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
cut and paste is not a response.

No matter how many paragraphs you copy, you've still lost the argument.



Screaming "I win! You lose!" is not a response, either.


Of course the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were religiously motivated. Bush DID call the war on terror "a crusade", remember. You can try to deny that all you'd like, but he used just those words to describe his mission.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
MD ,

You're just pissed off , ashamed and embarrassed that you can't hold your own in this 'debate', and it shows. The childish insults, the dismissive tone...

Why don't you go toe to toe w/ me on this, and we can count how many mass killings have been done in the name of Allah, vs those done in the name of Jesus.

Ready ? Let's go. I'll start...

Beslan school massacre - Russia.

Your turn.




Hitler. Roman Catholic.

McVeigh. Roman Catholic.

Rev. Jim Jones. Christian.


Your turn.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Hitler didn't kill in the name of Jesus. That's been shown and explained 10,000 x's over.

McVeigh had no religious motives, so again, you fail.

Rev Jones only killed his followers,( many of which he made drink at the point of a gun ) those who willingly followed him. And then he killed himself. Completely different issue.

Muslim terrorists get others to kill for the cause, while staying comfortably alive ( Osama bin Laden ) while watching porn and being comforted by his many wives.

Swing and a miss, 3 x's. Go take a seat, sonny.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Of course Hitler killed in the name of Jesus. He was a Christian with a hard-on for scapegoating Jews. It doesn't get much more religiously-motivated than that.

McVeigh was also a Christian. Born that way, died that way.

Jones as well.

You're very quick to "forgive" any sin committed by a Christian, aren't you?

Odd that you'd call yourself an atheist, because you really suck at it.


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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Muslim bad. Christian good. Woof.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Hitler wasn't fighting for Christianity, so that's a non issue.

Prove McVeigh was a Christian. Prove he killed in the name of Jesus.

Jones was an ego maniac. A deluded cult member. They basically killed themselves, and weren't in the terrorism business. Same as the Heaven's Gate cult. Same difference.

You're 0-3, but being O for anything in your life, must be pretty common place.

How does me being an atheist have anything to do w/ the conversation? I'm dealing in hard facts. You're ( again ) trying to segue away from the issue.

Last chance. Back up your claims, or admit you're flat out wrong, and move on.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Muslim bad. Christian good. Woof.



Remember Beslan...





WTC


Mumbai



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Here ya go. Just a taste:

Quote:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)




Quote:

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)




Quote:

The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)






You can say he wasn't a very GOOD Christian, but you cannot argue that he wasn't a Christian.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, July 11, 2011 8:13 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Picturethink doublegoodspeak

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Monday, July 11, 2011 8:31 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Magon's: I said I felt that the article got more reasonable towards the end, which were the parts you quoted to Happy. Its almost like someone started the article and then someone came along and said to them that it was too slanted so they tried to improve as they went but didn't go back and tone down the beginning. that being said people have the right to write what they want with their own opinion, even if I don't find it reasonable.

Magon's again: Yeah there are some weird things in the Old Testiment, I'm not going to pretend there aren't. I'm just glad that Jesus came along and helped us out and thus we don't have to do those "lets kill everyone for everything they do wrong" things now. I just know that I'm glad I don't live in the Old Testiment world, I'd not like to live in a society with all those rules. I see a difference between rules in the Old Testiment and how things work in the New. But I certainly don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I believe that there are some important things in the Old Testiment about history and knowledge and things that we can still apply, I'm just glad we're done with all that killing people all the time stuff.

Raptor: I agree with you that currently we see more Islamic extremists out there causing blatent terroristic havoc. But people claiming to be Christians caused such havoc in the past and we can't deny that. But in terms of the last 50 years I agree with you.

Quicko, I believe that someone needs to choose their own beliefs, I don't believe that they are born into it, though they can certainly be born into a culture of a belief. The only exception to this that I know of is being Jewish, because it seems to be as much a culture/birthright as a religeon, both aspects play into one's identity as being Jewish.



"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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