REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mississippi Voters Defeat Anti-Choice "Personhood" Amendment

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Thursday, November 10, 2011 13:02
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1045
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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57321126/mississippis-personhood-a
mendment-fails-at-polls
/

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill


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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hallelujah.

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:27 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'd respond but haven't we been forbidden to discuss this topic?

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:31 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'd rather this was settled out in full, rather than put off for another time.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:31 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Saw this headline over on CNN.com & was gonna post and comment- also the one on the Ohio union busting law.

Seems like I remember when there was a special election in 1 upstate New York district, and the Dem lost (Was it to replace Spitzer?). Lotta right wingers said it was a referendum on Obama, and he lost.

So here's 2 STATEWIDE elections on 2 big issues from the Repubs/Teabaggers/neocons, whatever ya wanta call 'ems, and they both lost. Is that a referendum on the R's? Did the people speak?

Or will they ( the R's) have to change their tune? Is direct democracy a bad idea? Or did George Soros and his liberal big bucks and the left wing conspiracy media machine buy the elections in 2 different states, over 2 different issues, on the same day?

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'd respond but haven't we been forbidden to discuss this topic?




Have we been forbidden from talking about voting results?


Dang.

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I'd rather this was settled out in full, rather than put off for another time.






In truth, so do I, but we'll take the little victories where we can.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 8:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I'd rather this was settled out in full, rather than put off for another time."

Oh dear. I missed something. Are we not supposed to discuss something?

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 4:49 AM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, same. Wasn't aware of any restrictions. It's an unmoderated board.

Though I WAS wondering why Niki wasn't posting, since this is one of her pet peeves.

Anyway, DT pops in now and then, but he's not sticking around much, I doubt anyone's going to cause any trouble for you if you want to discuss.

Saw a news report myself about the specific proposition. Sounded pretty bad, I couldn't even hear any exceptions for rape, medical complications, or incest. Some lady with her eyes all lit up from her faith stood up on a podium and said "Now children fathered by rape won't be punished for that crime," and I thought, "lady, you are WHACKED."

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:02 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Oh dear. I missed something. Are we not supposed to discuss something?"

Hello,

I am unaware of any restrictions on dialogue.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Whazzis "forbidden" stuff? Is ANY subject forbidden around here? If so, I wasn't aware of it.

I'm not around as much, Byte, 'cuz things are pretty busy here with OWS.

I'm tickled to hear the personhood thing died. Huzzah! No, it did NOT have any exclusions--any at all, period, end of story. Even life of the mother, if I recall correctly. Not sure what you mean about "pet peeve", but yeah, I feel strongly about the government deciding what a woman should do with her body for her. You betcha.

And I guess from what I read, the union-busting one went down too...DOUBLE HUZZAH!

As to doing it piecemeal, gotta remember they INSTITUTED this shit one thing at a time, partly with the knowledge that they would have to be DEFEATED one at a time, and in the hopes the populace wouldn't get head up enough to do so. They set out the rules of the game, so we're stuck playing by 'em.

I'm actually surprised the personhood thing even passed, since I thought federal law superceded state law, but no matter, it's gone, that's the important part. Onward to the next fight...Wisconsin? Some other deranged anti-choice law?



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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 6:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Not that they'll give up easily:
Quote:

Abortion opponents say they're still pursuing life-at-fertilization ballot initiatives in six other states after Bible Belt voters in Mississippi defeated one Tuesday.

The "personhood" proposal was intended to prompt a legal challenge aimed at overturning Roe v. Wade, the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision that established a legal right to abortion.

Keith Mason is co-founder of Personhood USA, which pushed the Mississippi measure. The Colorado-based group is trying to put initiatives on 2012 ballots in Florida, Montana, Ohio, Oregon, Nevada and California. Voters in Colorado rejected similar proposals in 2008 and 2010.

Nancy Northup, president and CEO of the Center for Reproductive Rights, said the initiatives represent an "extreme, dangerous and direct assault" on abortion rights.

Mason told The Associated Press that Personhood USA might revive efforts for another ballot initiative in Mississippi.

Speaking of the failure in Mississippi on Tuesday, Mason said, "it's not because the people are not pro-life. It's because Planned Parenthood put a lot of misconceptions and lies in front of folks and created a lot of confusion."

Planned Parenthood Federation of America said in a statement: "Mississippi voters rejected the so-called 'personhood' amendment because they understood it is government gone too far, and would have allowed government to have control over personal decisions that should be left up to a woman, her family, her doctor and her faith, including keeping a woman with a life-threatening pregnancy from getting the care she needs, and criminalizing everything from abortion to common forms of birth control such as the pill and the IUD."

The so-called "personhood" initiative was rejected by more than 55 percent of Mississippi voters, falling far short of the threshold needed for it to be enacted.

The measure divided the medical and religious communities and caused some of the most ardent abortion opponents, including Republican Gov. Haley Barbour, to waver with their support.

Opponents said the measure would have made birth control, such as the morning-after pill or the intrauterine device, illegal. More specifically, the ballot measure called for abortion to be prohibited "from the moment of fertilization" — wording that opponents suggested would have deterred physicians from performing in vitro fertilization because they would fear criminal charges if an embryo doesn't survive.

Opponents also said supporters were trying to impose their religious beliefs on others by forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies, including those caused by rape or incest.

Amy Brunson voted against the measure, in part because she has been raped. She also has friends and family that had children through in vitro fertilization and she was worried this would end that process. "The lines are so unclear on what may or may not happen. I think there are circumstances beyond everybody's control that can't be regulated through an amendment," said Brunson, a 36-year-old dog trainer and theater production assistant from Jackson.

Buddy Hairston, 39, took his 8-year-old triplets to a precinct outside Jackson to hold signs supporting the initiative. "Unborn children are being killed on a daily basis in our state and country, and it's urgent that we protect them," said Hairston, a forestry consultant.

Mississippi already has tough abortion regulations and only one clinic where the procedures are performed, making it a fitting venue for a national movement to get abortion bans into state constitutions.

The state's largest Christian denomination, the Mississippi Baptist Convention, backed the proposal through its lobbying arm, the Christian Action Commission. "We mourn with heaven tonight over the loss of Initiative 26, which would have provided the hope of life for thousands of God's unborn babies in Mississippi," said the commission's director, the Rev. Jimmy Porter. "Instead the unborn in Mississippi will continue to be led down on a path of destruction to horrible deaths both inside their mothers and in laboratories."

The bishops of the Episcopal Diocese of Mississippi and the General Conference of the United Methodist Church opposed the initiative. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2099013,00.html the intention wsa to get it to the Supreme Court, apparently. Gawd, what a thought; I'll be very, very frightened that the current Supremes will overturn Roe v. Wade. Apparently we learned nothing from prohibition. The war is never over, as we all know...



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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 7:06 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"they INSTITUTED this shit one thing at a time, partly with the knowledge that they would have to be DEFEATED one at a time"

Hello,

No, I'd have preferred that someone passed the measure, and then to see it brought to the Supreme Court so that the rights of the mother could be affirmed once and for all.

This being defeated sounds like a good thing, but it only means they can keep coming over and over and over for years or decades.

It is a postponement of a battle, not a victory.

At least, that's how I see it.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 7:06 AM

BYTEMITE


Well, there's plenty around here who care about the issue, but you seem to post about it more than the rest of us. So, I called it a "pet peeve" to signify the way you seem to "own" the issue.

I'd call DT's focus on fracking a "pet peeve" or a "pet issue" as well.

My calling them as such was not meant to imply they aren't a problem.


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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 7:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, but I'd appreciate it if you'd drop the "pet peeve" where I'm concerned. If I've posted about it frequently, it's because it's one of the main things being focused on by the right, and I've posted about numerous things they've instituted. Is that somehow connected to this "forbidden topic" thing? Because it certainly isn't--not that ANY subject can be "forbidden" here...

The only reason I haven't posted about things like climate change and other environmental issues is that other people have beat me to it. I just wander around the various news websites and look for current stuff people might find interesting. So it's more a reflection of how much it comes UP in the news than anything having to do with me. Yes, I pick and choose what news stories I put up, but while I certainly feel strongly about the issue, it's definitely not a "pet peeve" of mine. My feelings are probably stronger than some others because my mother underwent an abortion back when they were illegal and it fucked her up badly, so yeah, in that respect it's personal.

I assure you, abortion is not a pet peeve of mine. FauxNews is, certainly; the environment, crazy right-wingers, outrageous Republicans, and numerous other political issues are, far more than the issue of abortion. If the right weren't working so hard at making it illegal again, I wouldn't be interested. It's never affected me as a person, nor would it ever have.

Anthony, I get your point, and it's a valid one. I just fear our current Supreme Court and am very much afraid they'll ditch Roe v. Wade when they get their hands on it (not "if", 'cuz I'm sure, like the health care issue, it WILL get there sooner or later), and don't want any more women than absolutely necessary to suffer between now and then, is all.



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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 7:55 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

This being defeated sounds like a good thing, but it only means they can keep coming over and over and over for years or decades.

It is a postponement of a battle, not a victory.

At least, that's how I see it.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________




Im totally okay with letting them tilt at windmils.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 7:59 AM

BYTEMITE


I suppose I must just not understand you. I don't know how something can be personal and not influence your desire to post or talk about it, or your choices in what you select from the news sites. How strongly you feel about it comes across in what you post, even when you do post more about Republicans and so on, to the point where if I see an abortion article, I expect you're the one to have posted it. It's a surprise when it's not you.

But, I'll take back the comment. I did not mean any offense.

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 8:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I wrote pretty clearly "Yes, I pick and choose what news stories I put up", and yes, when I see some new development in the news about abortion, it's one of the things I bother to read and maybe put up. And yes, I feel strongly about it. But it's because it's in the NEWS that I start threads with new developments on it. When is the last time you saw me start a personal opinion thread on abortion, not a news story? That's my point: IT MAKES NEWS, so when I spot a news story on it, I'm more interested and more likely to put that up than, say, a news story about the Kardashians. I also put up many, many other things, and by far more of them are about the right than about abortion, so as far as pet peeves go, THAT's a pet peeve, unquestionably! The current slate of Republican Presidential candidates is a BIG pet peeve of mine!

Do you understand? When some subjects come up IN THE NEWS, I'm probably more attracted to them than others. I'm also about the only person here who puts up news about wolves; I'm attracted to same. But abortion isn't a personal issue for me, it's a civil-rights issue. It affects me personally only insofar as it affected my mother, but curtailing civil rights is a REAL big pet peeve, if you want to use the term. Abortion itself means virtually nothing to me (I don't even consider a fetus a "person" until a certain point); government deciding what a woman's rights are and aren't, THAT's real big to me. And I most assuredly do NOT "own" the topic of abortion, I don't "own" any topic here, and if you look back, I think you'll find there are any number of people who have expressed quite vehement opinions on abortion among those who believe it should be illegal, or at least severely limited.

Simply put, my strong feelings are not about abortion per se, but about civil rights. Sneaky ways of making abortion difficult or impossible offend me highly because they go around the law in order to prohibit a woman' civil rights.



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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 8:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


FWIW, the whole "it's forbidden" thing was a minor tongue-in-cheek jab at Dreamtrove, I'm pretty sure. He generally pokes his head into these threads to say we shouldn't be discussing this issue.



I get where Anthony is coming from, I really do, but I'll take the little victories where we can get them. I've little confidence that THIS Supreme Court is going to uphold anything that doesn't come wrapped in about a million dollars worth of "donations" to the Justices' families.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 8:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Bah, the whole we're-not-discussing-that is more kind of an ad-hoc mutual agreement than anything else, and given that such is the basis for Anarchism imma generally go along with it, but there's no force into it, just a matter of "do we really wanna hash this out all over again?" by a bunch of people who all know where each other stands and are for the most part unwilling to move.

And yet, cooperation exists, does it not ?

Lesson to be learned there - mind you I'd still discuss it if folks really wanted to, but I don't see us gettin nowhere with it, is all.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 7:20 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


One more good thing to report - tho it's a very very very small and local thing - we decertified our union. Normally I'd be aghast, but our union got in bed with management (possibly even literally considering the trip taken with management to the state capital to support a bill to screw new hires out of retirement funding).

So GOOD RIDDANCE to your conniving self-serving back-stabbing agenda!

The decertification petition was just validated today. We will vote soon on joining the Teamsters, which have done a pretty good job sticking up for their members in the other bargaining units here.

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 7:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well if you don't like the offer the Teamsters might make, there's always the "nuclear option"...
http://www.iww.org/

Just sayin..

-F

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 8:54 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I understand what Byte is saying, usually if there's an article posted about abortion/women's right to choose, its posted by Niki, so I see why Byte thinks its an issue that Niki cares about.

And the not talking about it thing was a joke, playing around. We can in factuality talk about whatever we want. But a lot of us have already talked about this, and not too long ago as I recall, so that's why there aren't vehement arguments going on.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 2:21 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
"do we really wanna hash this out all over again?"

Are there any "let's overturn RvW" people on this board to hash it out with?

That is to say, is there anyone here who WOULD have voted yes to MS's Personhood? Or who would rejoice had it passed?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think of anyone. The bill was so badly written, most pro-lifers I know were against it.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:27 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, it was only overturned by 55% of them, so aparently there's a lot of people in THAT state at least who think RvW should be overturned...and in other states as well, I'm sure.



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Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:02 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just bumped across this...I LIKE it!
Quote:

Election 2011: A Victory for the Silent Majority

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2011/11/09/election-2011-a-victory-for-the-s
ilent-majority/#ixzz1dLXml5VlI’m
out here for the deathless drama and schoolyard hijinks that attend each and every Republican debate and, wandering the spin room, I came upon NBC’s Chuck Todd who made a very good–and sort of flattering–political point: last night’s election results reaffirmed the mood that I encountered on my recent road trip. It was a victory for the sensible center.

Now, I know that assorted progressives are crowing about the defeat of Mississippi’s attempt to pass an excessive anti-abortion law, and the defeat of Ohio’s attempt to pass an excessive anti-union law, and the successful recall of Arizona’s excessively anti-immigrant Senator Russell Pearce, and dozens of anti-excessive local results around the country. That’s to be expected and it’s justified: the far right lost big last night. But I’m not convinced that this is good news for the left.

A more moderate anti-abortion law might have passed in Mississippi; in Ohio, people didn’t want the public employee unions busted, but I’m not sure they want to continue funding gold-plated union pension plans or allowing work rules that prevent school reform; in Arizona, as in much of the rest of the country, there are mixed feelings about the (waning) tide of illegal immigration.

In sum, I would suspect that we’ve gone about as far right on those issues as we can go. It will be interesting to see whether the Republicans clotting the stage at Oakland University will get this message. The day of the screamers is passing. It’s time for pragmatism, compromise and sanity to regain its place at the heart of the American political system. http://swampland.time.com/2011/11/09/election-2011-a-victory-for-the-s
ilent-majority/
it be loverly...



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