Vaccinations, Pt 2 by canttakesky

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Vaccinations, Pt 2

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2022 07:48
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Monday, December 19, 2011 9:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"TONY... OOC how far would your inclination NOT to intervene stretch? I suspect everyone has a threshold where they step in, so I'm wondering where yours might be."

Hello,

How could one find such a threshold? Only by pushing a situation to some extreme where an overwhelming wave of emotion causes one repugnant end to outweigh another.

If we could solve the world's health woes by murdering one man, or one woman, or one child, should we do so? Think of how many would be saved. A countless number, with benefits to reverberate through eternity.

It's a tough call. Could I kill one? Imprison twenty? Kidnap fifty? Violate a hundred? To save everyone else in the state, the nation, the world?

I don't know where my threshold lies. I hope I never find out.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Monday, December 19, 2011 10:08 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well, since this is theoretical - I suppose it depends on whether you believe that "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose". If, theoretically, you knew for a FACT (100% with no doubt at all) that person X would essentially swing their fist at the world through, say, nuclear attack, if you believed that their 'rights' ended where the 'rights' of others began you would have no problem ending those 'rights', through, say imprisonment. If you don't believe that's true - if you believe that people should be 100% free to do what they want and then endure consequences (if any) from their actions, then you would not want to to restrict their 'rights' in any way, not even for the survival of the world's population.

I put 'rights' in single quotes as the concept itself is subject to discussion.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 10:30 AM

BYTEMITE

1kiki: Well, what I mean is, would a child choose vaccination or chemotherapy against the wishes of their parents if all the information was presented to them? And if the system were to allow that (I imagine a doctor getting consent for a procedure from a six-year-old and ignoring the wishes of the parent would probably get in legal hot water the way things work now), is that something we SHOULD honour? The choice of the child about their own health?

However, I've been a sugar addict since I was two, so I can't really deny what you're saying, but on the other hand, in addition to being a sugar fiend, I wasn't a picky eater and would eat anything put in front of me, vegetable or so on.

Sig: Hrm. Well I wouldn't really say I'm against the pro-vaccination story or that there's any one thing. I would say I'm ignorant, but then there was also some stuff that CTS was saying about vaccination duds or subclinical infections. And personally I've had cause to wonder if some of the vaccinations I've received were live virus, because the reaction I'd had was as bad as the illness.

When I was a kid, my parents would quarantine me whenever I was REALLY sick. I quarantine myself now, though I haven't had much occasion for it. I figure if anything is bad enough to actually get me sick, there's a good chance it could kill anyone else who caught it.

But because of my adverse reactions to vaccines, and my self-imposed quarantine, and I never really come into contact with any little kids in my life, I think I take enough precautions and have sufficient reasons personally to not vaccinate. But that's me.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 10:38 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I know my answer was about something trivial, but it was still a serious one. Children really don't weigh consequences, whether we're focused on eating vegetables or candy; or going to the doctor to get a yucky shot instead of staying at home and playing.

Somewhere along the line between infant, who really doesn't understand much, and adult, supposedly we grow up to be able to understand the options, to understand the consequences, and to be able to make an informed decision. But I think at the extremely young end it's pretty obvious that infants can't make that decision, so in my mind the question comes down to at what time and which kinds of decisions do children get to make.

And sorry to cut off discussion, but I have to head off for an appointment right now. With any luck we can continue this later!

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Monday, December 19, 2011 10:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I suppose it depends on whether you believe that "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose"."

Hello,

It's more complicated than you imagine, because you can believe this and still choose not to intervene.

It happens when you balance the noses and fist radii of different people.

One might say that the person refusing inoculation is swinging his fist at the world.

Another might say that by forcing inoculation, the world is swinging its fist at him.

There are overlapping rights and responsibilities here, with consequences beyond the specific individuals who are forcing or being forced.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Monday, December 19, 2011 10:42 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
...most likely the same quirks that lead to a rejection of vaccination (despite evidence in favor).

One more time. I do not reject vaccination. I am not an anti-vaccinationist. I disagree with anti-vaccinationists, who like me as much as you do, Siggy.

I think vaccines are fully effective for some people, and partially effective for others, and not effective for the rest (generally speaking). I think it is hard to predict who would fall into which group, so it is best to leave it all up to personal choice.

I personally do not vaccinate because I became very ill with my last vaccination (flu) at age 26. Within hours, I felt very sick, like I was coming down with the flu. These flu-like symptoms would not leave. Then weird neurological symptoms started appearing in a cascade, until 6 months from vaccination, I collapsed and became completely disabled and unable to work. I was bedridden for 3 months and had to be carried to the bathroom.

(Looking back, I suspect chronic microglial activation as a reasonable hypothesis to explain my experience. I remained disabled for 10 years, until I had a sudden remission.)

I didn't make a vaccine connection at the time. But eventually, my MD physician who is a board certified internist as well as a board certified pediatrician, told me that many others who share my diagnosis (Myalgic Encephalomyelities, aka Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) also report onset of symptoms shortly after vaccination. After seeing thousands of patients and finding a significant anecdotal correlation, he was privately advising all his ME/CFS patients to avoid the flu vaccine. "It's just not worth the risk to avoid the flu," he says.

I still thought no more of it. When my kid was born, it occurred to me, "If I may have reacted badly to a vaccine, then my kid may have inherited that susceptibility to react badly as well." I asked my mom, who told me I reacted badly to vaccines as a baby as well, always shrieking and febrile after vaccinations. I did my research, mostly on original papers, but also read lots of books. I concluded that I have seen insufficient evidence to convince me to take the risk my kids may also react badly.

My 2nd kid has a few mild clinical presentations of autism. He'll stim from time to time. He can be very rigid and perseverate. He was speech delayed (though now he has caught up). He used to have LOTS of gastrointestinal symptoms. His MD family physician, who treats a LOT of kids with ASD, suggested he is on the mild end of the spectrum. She also told me she has little doubt that were he to be vaccinated, he would most likely regress and be full blown autistic. In her opinion, right now, he is not diagnosable. But afterwards, he would be. I am not saying there is good science to support her opinion, but there is no good science to reject it either.

I have also talked to researchers who hypothesize that a retrovirus may be involved in ME/CFS and autism, causing neuroimmunological damage. They suspect, though they would not say it in public, that this damage is aggravated by hyperimmunological events such as vaccination.

So, I reject vaccination for me and my family, in agreement with trust health consultants. This is a personal decision based on private experience and has NOTHING to do with science.

Scientifically speaking, I do not reject vaccines. I think they are a useful part of our arsenal against infectious diseases, if used judiciously and intelligently.

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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Monday, December 19, 2011 11:17 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Byte or anyone else, if you're interested in more reading, here are some abstracts on subclinical infections.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/scandals/july_5_02/mild_or_subclinical_
disease.htm

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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Monday, December 19, 2011 2:07 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Everyone in this thread makes good points. In regard to vaccines it sounds like the argument is whether they should be compulsery, not whether they're effective in most cases because everyone seems to be willing to admit effectiveness. I think that for the most part vaccines for deadly diseases should be manditory but I think it should be easier to get exception permission for children who are suceptable to things or for whom it wouldn't be such a good idea, like group A where its manditory and group B who have certain scenarios going on and so its better to wait or see what happens or skip one.

If its a choice between ten thousand or ten dying I'll choose the ten for now but I do that with the expectation that someone smarter than I is working on reducing that further and eliminating the death thing because we can't just sit on the status quo, we need to be striving to make things better and better.

Homeopathy: If it works for you then great. I don't know that insurance should cover it since there's no scientific proof for it. But I do think insurance should cover nature based medicines. Right now the things my maturopath is having me try are not covered by my insurance, nor is she, nor is anything she suggests, I had to pay for my labs etc. I wish that if we found something that works well for me my insurance would be willing to pay at least part of it like they pay for my regular medicines.

About CTS' story of the two kids who got autism diagnoses after vaccines, the doctor should have let the third one not get vaccinated, if for nothing else than to have an experiment, since its clear that autism and its tendencies run in the family, it would have been interesting to see the result of the experiment of not vaccinating the third one.

And even though animals near me freak me out I do like pictures of cute baby animals, thanks DT, pictures don't scare me.

I believe that chicken pox vaccines are still optional are they not? But common sense would indicate that if Signe had another baby she'd hurry to get him/her vaccinated, given what happened with chicken pox with the first child. My best friend has never had chicken pox and never had the vaccine, I don't know what will happen to her if she gets it now at age 26.

CTS a chara, I'm glad your kid with some autism tendencies doesn't have actual autism, that's cool and hopefully it will stay that way, I reckon if he hasn't had it come over him yet it won't in future.

Do vaccines cause autism to manifest? I don't know the answer, I lean towards no but that doesn't mean I know it for sure. I can understand that with her beliefs on the matter it makes sense that CTS isn't wanting to vaccinate that one child with the suspicious vaccine. But it seems a little overkill to not vaccinate any of them for anything, but she's in Peru and so she has that right. Maybe if we had more exceptionary options available here she could skip the vaccines she's suspicious of. Although come to think of it she homeschools her kids anyways so she could not vaccinate them here in the States too.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:47 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
About CTS' story of the two kids who got autism diagnoses after vaccines, the doctor should have let the third one not get vaccinated, ...

Her doctor gave her a medical exemption. The school refused to accept it. The state department of health said that the medical exemption was invalid, because it has been conclusively proven that vaccines do not cause autism. Then they threatened the physician with disciplinary action if he were to issue any more medical exemptions for concern about autism.

The poor mother had no recourse. She came to me asking if there was anything else she could do. I had to tell her no. I think she ended up moving to a state with more lenient exemption policy. I wish I knew what happened to her 3rd son.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Monday, December 19, 2011 4:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"It's more complicated than you imagine, because you can believe this and still choose not to intervene."

I gave a very extreme example (a little bit like the '24' scenario examples Rappy used to give about why it's OK to torture) not b/c it's realistic but b/c it might help decipher which factors are important and which way does thinking divide.

You can believe my nose's exemption from your rights, and chose not to intervene for other reasons. But then it becomes a matter of setting limits - when, with who, for what reasons, how much. And for what reasons, again. And that is always open to discussion.

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Wednesday, December 21, 2011 4:24 AM

CANTTAKESKY

So it occurs to me where Siggy gets the idea that I have very low standards.

I have very high standards in evaluating science.

I have very low standards in evaluating what to use in my personal life. Little to no science in my personal choices. (But I have a very narrow definition of "science.")

This goes back to the dichotomy that science and my personal life are not the same thing.

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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Wednesday, December 21, 2011 10:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
So, I reject vaccination for me and my family, in agreement with trust health consultants. This is a personal decision based on private experience and has NOTHING to do with science.

Scientifically speaking, I do not reject vaccines. I think they are a useful part of our arsenal against infectious diseases, if used judiciously and intelligently.

In reality it does have to do with science.

You doctors seem to be making sugestions based on what they have observed, in you and others. That is science. Your making desicions based on your observations, such as the fact you don't respond well to flu vaccines.

See you have to understand that a scientific study regarding a large number of people will not give you information on an individual.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, December 21, 2011 10:34 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You doctors seem to be making sugestions based on what they have observed, in you and others. That is science.

No, it really isn't.

Observation is only the first step of the scientific method. By itself, it is not science.

I can observe that pixie dust appears to make someone's diabetes disappear. That observation itself is not science.

You have to form a hypothesis. Then test the hypothesis. Lather, rinse, repeat. THAT is science. Without experimentation with proper controls, there is no science.

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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Friday, October 14, 2022 5:01 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

No more restrictions in Canada and Aus?

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Friday, October 14, 2022 7:48 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
No more restrictions in Canada and Aus?

If that's true, Good for them.

They should be demanding their guns back right about now.

--------------------------------------------------

Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus

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