Undercover police officers' lies wrecked lives, say women they duped by Magonsdaughter

My God!

First, how do they justify these expenses? Do these operations ever result in arrest, let alone conviction?

Second, I think it is apparent who TPTB want to target next as potential terrorist groups that lead to "violent radicalization." Al-Qaeda is so last year.

Third, what a clever way to destroy groups. By eroding trust amongst themselves, they can't get anything significant done.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 4:44 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

In the unpopular viewpoint category...

The government should not be conducting these sorts of operations. This kind of intrusion is a violation.

However.

Lying to your girlfriend, for whatever reason, ought not to be a crime. It really doesn't matter why you lie to your girlfriend. The lawsuit is just silly, and it approaches this problem from the wrong direction.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 4:58 AM

Sounds to me like it's a civil case for emotional damages, which means not a crime. I think I'm okay with that, because this really is tragic and those girls had some part of their lives wasted by this. I expect they won't win the case though, th judge will probably uphold the blue code, and the girls will get harassed now in other ways by their so-called protectors for daring to speak out against being hurt by them.

Even so, perhaps this is actually a useful angle to put an end to such overreaching policing. If for some reason they see this as worth the budget, maybe this might make it too expensive. So I hope these women really draw it out if they aren't going to win, just so they'll spend more money on lawyers.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:01 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

By this logic, anybody who lies to another person in a relationship would be subject to being sued for emotional damages.

While the concept is useful in the case of shutting down this foolish government endeavor, I'm not sure it is useful to society at large.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:08 AM

Not really, just ones with a deep pocket.

Perhaps it is MAYBE a little frivolous, but at the same time it's not. I stand by my comment about making such operations cost prohibitive.

Can a person really consent in a relationship if they don't know who the other person is? This is a murky area - I wouldn't call it rape, but it's really questionable.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
By this logic, anybody who lies to another person in a relationship would be subject to being sued for emotional damages.

It depends on the lie and the consequences. Civil court usually runs on the premise of "No harm, no foul", with harm defined in monetary terms, since that is the usual remedy (money). Complainant (litigant) would have to show that the defendant caused lost wages (due to emotional distress), specific expenses (psychotherapy?) etc in order to win a judgment.

If you have combined your resources (joint checking account, joint credit cards), or had children with a fake identity, it seems there would be all manner of reasons for a civil suit.

The program itself should be the subject of a criminal investigation.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

It's simple.

You can't lie to the govt. That's illegal.

The govt CAN lie to you.

Any questions ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:50 AM

Sig makes a good point. But I wonder if there aren't also intangible impacts that are more difficult to put a money valuation on. A relationship is itself an investment, a person is putting time, emotional commitment, and yeah, sometimes money into it (gifts exchanged and such). I wonder if any of these women wanted to get married or have kids? People don't live forever, and women aren't exactly fertile forever either.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 10:56 AM

DREAMTROVE

If you lie down with pigs, you wake up covered in mud.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 1:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Can a person really consent in a relationship if they don't know who the other person is? This is a murky area - I wouldn't call it rape, but it's really questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

I would.

This unfortunately falls within one of those enormous psychological blind spots which annoy me so much, just like how a body cavity search or forced intrusive medical exam on spurious or bullshit charges does.

I figure it this way, if one lays hands on another without informed consent, it's an assault of SOME kind, and anything goes inside, that's rape, I don't care if it's a fucking thermometer between their teeth, if informed consent isn't present that's what it is.

No excuses.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 1:57 PM

I dunno. I didn't think it was rape when whatsisface got trumped up charges for saying he was going to use a condom then didn't. Not having consent makes it mega wrong, yeah, but it'd be way worse if it were an act of violence.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Lying to your girlfriend, for whatever reason, ought not to be a crime. It really doesn't matter why you lie to your girlfriend. The lawsuit is just silly, and it approaches this problem from the wrong direction.

This is different from lying to your girlfriend. The women were not the operatives' girlfriends. They were their assets.

These men got paid good taxpayer money to lie to women, take advantage of them, use them, and then throw them away. It was their JOB to lie to these women.

The people who created and supervised this job description must be penalized. Lawsuit would be on the lenient end of the penalty. We must draw clear boundaries on what we will not accept from our govt.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:26 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"if informed consent isn't present that's what it is.

No excuses."

Hello,

When my wife and I were dating, she was trying to find an alcoholic drink that I enjoyed. She liked the occasional drink, but I found all alcoholic beverages repugnant.

From time to time, she'd ask me to taste this or taste that, hoping I'd enjoy it. Knowing my love for chocolate, she triumphantly suggested I try a Chocolate Martini.

Not wanting to disappoint her, I claimed to enjoy the Chocolate Martini. Then I forgot about it.

On our honeymoon, she ordered a Chocolate Martini for me from the bar, and after I tasted it, I declared I didn't like it.

But she remembered that I had previously claimed to enjoy the Chocolate Martini. She was saddened to find that it had all been a charade, a lie, a dupe.

Given that sharing the occasional alcoholic beverage is a custom important to her, we can conclude that she did not have informed consent when she married me, and that I 'raped' her (nonviolently) every time we had sex after that (since I claimed something about myself that was untrue) and that our entire marriage was a sham built on false pretenses.

And, consequently, that she could sue me for emotional damages (besides getting a divorce.)

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:37 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"We must draw clear boundaries on what we will not accept from our govt."

Hello,

Of course. But I am very careful about how I encourage use of the legal system, because that is a weapon easily twisted.

I would like to see the law enforcement/intelligence branches attacked for improper use of their powers. This use of agents/officers is repugnant. And it is repugnant for reasons that have little to do with particular lies to particular women. They did this to all of us, they violated the American people and misused our resources, and that is the basis of my dismay.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:04 PM

Lying about not liking a drink =! Lying about your name, your job, all your interests, what your feelings are for the person, and generally who you are in entirely.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:37 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Anthony, that example is a little different to people living double lives at the behest of a government.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 8:20 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

As common law wives, these women are elegible for half of the cops' police pensions...

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
As common law wives, these women are elegible for half of the cops' police pensions...

ROFL. The best solution yet!!!

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Of course. But I am very careful about how I encourage use of the legal system, because that is a weapon easily twisted.

Good point. But sometimes this legal system is all we have.

Quote:
I would like to see the law enforcement/intelligence branches attacked for improper use of their powers.

How would you like to see them attacked, if not through the legal system?

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:34 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"How would you like to see them attacked, if not through the legal system?"

Hello,

Using the legal system is fine, but one must be careful how one uses it. The proper precedents must be set, and bad precedents must be avoided.

I'd like to see the agencies gutted, leadership restaffed, new oversight installed, congressional hearings held if the law enforcement was connected to the Federal level in any way, and Constitutionality of the action challenged in court.

The challenge should be based on inappropriate use of power against the American people, not emotional damages caused by lying boyfriends.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:33 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

As a cute aside, whenever one of us tells an exaggeration or untruth designed to spare the other person's feelings, we call it a 'Chocolate Martini.'

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The challenge should be based on inappropriate use of power against the American people, not emotional damages caused by lying boyfriends.

Ah. OK. I agree.

Incidentally, I believe all this took place in Britain, not America. I could be wrong.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:44 AM

Well, with Julian that was really obviously politically motivated in that they kinda pressured the girl to file as a way of putting the squeeze on him, while simultaneously exploiting his ego and other weaknesses.
Shit man, IMHO the girl shoulda checked, and if he wasn't "suited up" one ninety-degree twist quite effectively ensures he ain't puttin nothin nowhere, yanno ?

I think PN offers a novel solution here though.

People lose sight of the notion that this is what courts are FOR - to assess situations like this and make a decision, civil and/or criminal - mostly because they've become such a one-way railroad train of rubberstamping abuses that the people as a whole have forgotten their PURPOSE, even.

Oh, and CTS gives me a perfect lead-in here.

Quote:
How would you like to see them attacked, if not through the legal system?

That answer your question ?

I've had enough of so-called protectors who are in fact greater threats to their alleged protectees than anything they're supposed to be protecting them against, and by this time there's no goddamned excuse for it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:33 AM

On the other hand when I posted the comment about not knowing someone can't really give consent, my own wording made me think of date-rape, which is not violent (most times), but still REALLY wrong.

Having consent but lying about some aspect of the act (like not using a condom or having an STD) is bad, not having consent at all because of a misrepresentation or not knowing what the person is doing is really bad, and not having consent and being brutalized in the process (aware or not) is what I'd consider the worst. But various things can drop something up or down on that scale.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:56 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I dunno. I didn't think it was rape when whatsisface got trumped up charges for saying he was going to use a condom then didn't. Not having consent makes it mega wrong, yeah, but it'd be way worse if it were an act of violence.

I don't want to comment on Assange, cause I think that was all kind of weird and trumped up. There was a case here called the 'hot chocolate rapist' who drugged women's hot chocolate, had sex with them while they were unconcious and filmed it all. Arsehole. He was convicted of rape, even though there was no 'violence' and I use this term cautiously, there was no consent and there was violation of these women.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
On the other hand when I posted the comment about not knowing someone can't really give consent, my own wording made me think of date-rape, which is not violent (most times), but still REALLY wrong.

Having consent but lying about some aspect of the act (like not using a condom or having an STD) is bad, not having consent at all because of a misrepresentation or not knowing what the person is doing is really bad, and not having consent and being brutalized in the process (aware or not) is what I'd consider the worst. But various things can drop something up or down on that scale.

Yeah, there's a scale on it, from civil to criminal, and again that's what courts are for, at least intended for, to make decisions like that based on facts and testimony, at least they were prior to going off the rails.

I tend to be a little more cautious on the rules-lawyering aspect of it in part I think because I am a poly, honesty is kinda critical to avoid being considered a complete sleaze, even though I can be remarkably prudish about some things.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:01 PM

Magons: Yeah, that's what I meant by date-rape. Maybe you call it something else over there.

Frem: Yeah, that makes sense.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:15 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Maybe the christmas season has warped my brain so that I will argue with someone when they hold the same position on something as me. Ooops.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:18 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's simple.

You can't lie to the govt. That's illegal.

The govt CAN lie to you.

Any questions ?

And this is precisely why you're a coward, and a piss pot.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Maybe the christmas season has warped my brain so that I will argue with someone when they hold the same position on something as me. Ooops.

I reccommend eggnogg, with nutmeg, and lots and lots of rum, yum!

Makes me... downright agreeable, one might say.

-F

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Frem: Yeah, that makes sense.

Although I doubt this one will make sense in context to anyone else, I felt the need to share this amusing bit which so terribly echoes my ability to accidently weird you the hell out sometimes without even trying....

I figure you'll get the joke, even if no one else does.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 11:01 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think this belongs in civil court, not criminal court, just like any other lawsuit between couples which doesn't technically involve a crime.

Rape is still rape if violence isn't present, if cohersion is involved then its rape. If some guy broke into my house and shot my brother, said he'd kill him the rest of the way if I didn't give him intercourse and I did it in the hopes of saving my brother then it would still be rape because it wasn't mutually concentual and there was cohersion and it would be a crime still.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, December 19, 2011 12:01 PM