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Long time policy: There is No Rape in the Military

POSTED BY: OONJERAH
UPDATED: Monday, April 16, 2012 18:15
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1784
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Saturday, April 14, 2012 8:28 AM

OONJERAH



Rape victims say military labels them 'crazy' =>
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/14/health/military-sexual-assaults-personal
ity-disorder/index.html


CNN has interviewed women in all branches of the armed forces, including
the Coast Guard, who tell stories that follow a similar pattern -- a sexual
assault, a command dismissive of the allegations and a psychiatric discharge.

a non-commissioned officer dismissed the allegation, saying, "Don't come
bitching to me because you had sex and changed your mind" ...

Despite the Defense Department's "zero tolerance" policy, there were 3,191
military sexual assaults reported in 2011. Given that most sexual assaults
are not reported, the Pentagon estimates the actual number was probably
closer to 19,000.

"The number of sexual assaults in the military is unacceptable," Defense
Secretary Leon Panetta said at a news conference in January. "Our men and
women in uniform put their lives on the line every day to keep America safe.
We have a moral duty to keep them safe from those who would attack their
dignity and their honor." ...

I assume this topic has been here before. I just haven't found it.

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Saturday, April 14, 2012 9:16 AM

BYTEMITE


:| Why do I ever read the comments section on stories like this?

I have lost my faith in humanity. Again.

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Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:09 PM

WISHIMAY


Yanno, I think the problem that these girls are having is that they don't remember who Lorena Bobbit is.

We need to be teaching them how to defend themselves, how to to be on guard, and how revenge works, not just for military applications but for real life. I don't see how anyone could let their kids go in service without these critical tools.... We've known about this crap for decades, now.... JUST 'CAUSE YOU GOT A PATCH OR A BADGE DOESN'T MEAN YER A DECENT HUMAN BEING!!!

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Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:59 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

how revenge works


Hello,

I'm not convinced that revenge does work.

However, we need to re-create our military into the kind of place where grievances are not automatically dismissed or used against you. Anyone who brings a problem to their superiors should be taken seriously, and any accusation of misconduct should be investigated. At no time should someone be afraid to come forward with a problem.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, April 14, 2012 1:31 PM

OONJERAH


A couple of years ago, as I learned the USA has over 700 military bases world
wide, I read an article about our GIs in the Orient, Guam or Formosa, I think.

GI's preyed on local women, not just the women GIs on base. The rape rate was
very high, and Officers denied and ignored it. Armed forces and GI money was
great for the economy there. But there's usually a big price to pay in putting up
with us.

There must be many COs who see red when our soldiers disgrace the uniform. So
I do not understand how denial of misconduct has become so commonplace.

About the same time, I read an article about our women serving in Iraq. No one
would go to the latrine alone, especially at night. They went in groups for self
defense. Many women drank no water for hours before bedtime, so they wouldn't
have to urinate at night.

I doubt they all made it up, and I find it horrific.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Saturday, April 14, 2012 3:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
A couple of years ago, as I learned the USA has over 700 military bases world
wide, I read an article about our GIs in the Orient, Guam or Formosa, I think.

GI's preyed on local women, not just the women GIs on base. The rape rate was
very high, and Officers denied and ignored it. Armed forces and GI money was
great for the economy there. But there's usually a big price to pay in putting up
with us.





1) That was Okinawa, if memory serves. Got quite a bit of notoriety, too. But it goes on on Saipan, Guam, the Philippines, and elsewhere, too.

2) They really don't call it Formosa anymore. They call it Taiwan now.




"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

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Saturday, April 14, 2012 3:56 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"The number of sexual assaults in the military is unacceptable," Defense
Secretary Leon Panetta said at a news conference in January. "Our men and
women in uniform put their lives on the line every day to keep America safe.
We have a moral duty to keep them safe from those who would attack their
dignity and their honor."



If Leon really meant this, he'd be on the military commander's asses, and start busting some folks. Guess he's too busy flying home to California most every weekend.

Considering how Pres. Obama's Secret Service detail has been acting in Columbia, I'd have to wonder about the Administration's commitment to women's dignity and honor.

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Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:40 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Hello,

I'm not convinced that revenge does work.




Well, doing nuthin' sure is working awesome-like, idn't it?? Yeah, stand there and turn the other cheek. That'll show 'em. Then wait around fer a corrupt gov't to do your dirty work for ya. *snort


*wishy sings*
"I promised ya dad, not to do the things you've done, I've walked away from trouble when I can...Please don't think I'm weak, I couldn't turn the other cheek. Sometimes you have ta fight when yer a man!" (Or a wo-man)


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Saturday, April 14, 2012 5:52 PM

BYTEMITE


It's tricky Wish. I'm kind of there with you, as I'd attempt to do what you're suggesting... But the problem is, I also know I'd go to prison for assault, if not murder.

It'd be even worse in the military. The moment a woman cut off a fellow soldier's danglies, they'd get more than a psychiatric diagnosis and discharge, they'd get a court martial.

The burden of evidence is on the victim, and the only evidence most courts will accept, if there's no audio or video evidence, is genetic material from the rapist. Which almost basically means you have to let the guy finish for anyone to believe you, and even then they can dismiss it and claim you wanted it and changed your mind during or after. It is fucked up. And it is one of the reasons I think it would be better to die than be raped.

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 1:40 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Well, doing nuthin' sure is working awesome-like, idn't it??


Hello,

Are those the only options? Doing nothing or taking revenge?

I must be weak-minded.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:14 PM

OONJERAH



Class action suit against the military comes to mind.

One could do what the women in the article did: talk a lot about it to those who
will listen. Write book; start a web site.
If one has enough money & a willing attorney, civil suits are possible?

The DOing something would depend on one's recovery time, will and support system.
Not every woman has will and support system.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Yanno, for me that's where the trouble STARTED - since I took issue with some dipshit using his rank to act in a sexually predatory fashion, and pushed it hard enough that I wound up in the brig, on my way to being punted out of the military entire till they desperately needed someone with my quirks...

My unit of record, the platoon I was in was 38 females, 2 males, and I was the ONLY cracker in it - not that this mattered to me but there was a certain friction to begin with, less of it when they realized I was a freakin stormtrooper and regardless of on-paper specialty placed there by the unit commander as a method of protecting them - he initially put all the females in the same unit, but that didn't work as well as expected cause in the military the words and actions of a woman seem to carry less weight, even now, and mind you this was a unit with serious morale and discipline problems to the point I was authorized to fire blue-on-blue (meaning shoot them) on the commanders say-so, or if there was sufficient justification for it in lieu of direct orders.

The other guy had no interest in women (you can figure out why I am sure) and NOBODY wanted to lock horns with the pyscho stormtrooper, so it worked out as well as could be expected, but I am quite, quite familiar with the fashions in which women are mistreated in the military - and happen to be aware of one death from kidney failure and dehydrating thanks to that habit of not drinking enough water in order to avoid trips to the latrine through the gauntlet of potential predators...
A problem we didn't have since I am by nature nocturnal and was usually on watch.
And yanno, I wasn't the only one who did that - not all secret societies have an evil purpose... within the military there is also the Silent Brotherhood, who's members have essentially sworn a second oath to our sisters in the service, to NOT let such acts happen or pass without intervention or comment, it's kind of an open-secret, but there are damn few of them, sadly enough.

When you teach someone to dehumanize other people enough to murder folks they've never met, do not know, and have no beef with, on the say-so of some asshat with shiny pins on his collar, it's not too far a step from there to dehumanizing EVERYONE who isn't you.

And this is the result.

-Frem

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:13 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
But the problem is, I also know I'd go to prison for assault, if not murder.



I prolly wouldn't kill 'em afterwards(assuming they make it to afterwards, and with me they most likely wouldn't), but like Jafar says "You'd be surprised what you can live through!" If enough people do something drastic enough, they gotta investigate sooner or later...

Unfortunately, that's the only way to deal with military. You can blog about it until kingdom come, brass isn't gonna give a shit, just like they already haven't since day 1. They are already practicing "extreme negligence." Only way to change extreme is to BE extreme back. Fire with fire. Know why they adon't wanna change? 'Cause if they kicked out people doing this stuff, we wouldn't have enough military to go around... Although I think It'd be fitting to put all the rapists in the same brigades, and let 'em see how it feels to be afraid to go to the can...

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:20 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Class action suit against the military comes to mind.




I'm not sure, myself, but I do remember hubbs sayin' something about military not being allowed to sue. Also, not sure if that applies to class-actions or not. I do know that no active member of military is allowed to give an opinion to the press without say-so. I have my suspicions about what happens to ex-members that talk, too...

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:33 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

And yanno, I wasn't the only one who did that - not all secret societies have an evil purpose... within the military there is also the Silent Brotherhood, who's members have essentially sworn a second oath to our sisters in the service,



You and hubbs would've gotten along well. I really don't think he could hurt a woman- even if he had too and he wouldn't have cared if they put him with all girls. Probably best they never needed to ship him anywhere. He'd of ended up trying to save the gal suicide bombers, or somesuch. I don't think there would've been much left of him psychologically even if he had made it back. He already loads and un-loads his gun of choice just about every day...just to make himself feel better


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Sunday, April 15, 2012 9:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
I'm not sure, myself, but I do remember hubbs sayin' something about military not being allowed to sue.


Correct, which is why, despite being in no way physically qualified no more, they have kept me on Inactive Reserve for all friggin eternity - cause they owe me a couple grand over a broken contract, unpaid bonuses, and about 18months of reserve pay...

-F

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 9:47 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Unfortunately there's rape anywhere you go, nowhere is safe. :( But I can see how the military environment could have lots of it. :( There's got to be a way to crack down and take accusations seriously, investigating them and checking it out. I wonder how other countries handle this issue, maybe we can learn something from them.

On revenge: I know it isn't right, but I understand people who want to do it. Plus some of this stuff is beyond simple revenge, its preemptive so the crap doesn't happen to others.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 7:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Stephanie Schroeder joined the U.S. Marine Corps not long after 9/11. She was a 21-year-old with an associate's degree when she reported for boot camp at Parris Island, South Carolina.

"I felt like it was the right thing to do," Schroeder recalls.

A year and a half later, the Marines diagnosed her with a personality disorder and deemed her psychologically unfit for the Corps.

Anna Moore enlisted in the Army after 9/11 and planned to make a career of it. Moore was a Patriot missile battery operator in Germany when she was diagnosed with a personality disorder and dismissed from the Army.

Jenny McClendon was serving as a sonar operator on a Navy destroyer when she received her personality disorder diagnosis.

These women joined different branches of the military but they share a common experience:

Each received the psychiatric diagnosis and military discharge after reporting a sexual assault.

"I'm not crazy," says Schroeder, who is married now, with two daughters. "I am actually relatively normal."

McClendon says she had a similar reaction.

"I remember thinking this is absurd; this is ridiculous. How could I be emotionally unstable? I'm very clear of mind, especially considering what had happened." McClendon says. "It was a ludicrous diagnosis."

A similar pattern

CNN has interviewed women in all branches of the armed forces, including the Coast Guard, who tell stories that follow a similar pattern -- a sexual assault, a command dismissive of the allegations and a psychiatric discharge.

Schroeder says a fellow Marine followed her to the bathroom in April 2002. She says he then punched her, ripped off her pants and raped her. When she reported what happened, a non-commissioned officer dismissed the allegation, saying, "'Don't come bitching to me because you had sex and changed your mind,'" Schroeder recalls.

Moore says she was alone in her barracks in October 2002 when a non-commissioned officer from another battery tried to rape her. When she filled out forms to report it, she says, her first sergeant, told her: "Forget about it. It never happened," and tore up the paperwork.

"It felt like a punch in the gut," Moore says. "I couldn't trust my chain of command to ever back me up."

McClendon says she was aboard a Navy destroyer at sea when a superior raped her on the midnight to 2 a.m. watch. After reporting the attack, she was diagnosed with a personality disorder and deemed unfit to serve.

"I was good enough to suit up and show up and serve, but I wasn't good enough after the fact," McClendon says.

Despite the Defense Department's "zero tolerance" policy, there were 3,191 military sexual assaults reported in 2011. Given that most sexual assaults are not reported, the Pentagon estimates the actual number was probably closer to 19,000.

"The number of sexual assaults in the military is unacceptable," Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said at a news conference in January. "Our men and women in uniform put their lives on the line every day to keep America safe. We have a moral duty to keep them safe from those who would attack their dignity and their honor."

But Anu Bhagwati, a former company commander in the Marines and executive director of Service Women's Action Network, a veterans advocacy group, says she sees a pattern of the military using psychiatric diagnoses to get rid of women who report sexual assaults.

"It's convenient to sweep this under the rug. It's also extremely convenient to slap a false diagnosis on a young woman ... and then just get rid of them so you don't have to deal with that problem in your unit. And, unfortunately, a lot of sexual assault survivors are considered problems," Bhagwati says.

From 2001 to 2010, the military discharged more than 31,000 service members because of personality disorder, according to documents obtained under a Freedom of Information Act request by the Vietnam Veterans of America.

Asked by CNN how many of these cases involved sexual assault cases, the Defense Department says it does not keep such figures, nor would the Pentagon comment on individual cases.

The diagnoses

The latest edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, known as the DSM-IV, defines a personality disorder as a long-standing, inflexible pattern of maladaptive behavior and coping, beginning in adolescence or early adulthood.

That would mean women like Schroeder, Moore and McClendon had a pre-existing personality disorder when they joined the military. Someone with personality disorder tends to get fired from jobs, get in trouble with the law or at school or is unable to maintain relationships.

"It makes absolutely no sense medically for people to be diagnosed all of a sudden after being sexually assaulted as an adult in the military to say 'No, you've had this all along,'" says Bhagwati, of the Service Women's Action Network.

"These women have clearly been able to function. They've made it through basic training. They've made it through all the follow-on training. Many of them are deployed overseas in war, and they've done fine there. But, when they're sexually assaulted, and then report it, it seems very suspicious that the military would suddenly stamp them with a pre-existing condition that bars them from serving anymore."

Dr. Liza H. Gold, a clinical professor of psychiatry at Georgetown University School of Medicine, says it's a rule of thumb among psychiatrists not to diagnose someone with a personality disorder in the middle of a traumatic experience like a divorce, litigation or the aftermath of a sexual assault.

The DSM-IV says: "When personality changes emerge and persist after an individual has been exposed to extreme stress, a diagnosis of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder should be considered."

Also, by definition, a personality disorder diagnosis cannot be caused by another psychiatric condition, such as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Gold says.

In 2003, when she returned to Germany from a deployment in Israel, Moore says a new Army counselor changed her diagnosis from severe depression to borderline personality disorder after only a half-hour session.

Gold is not familiar with Moore's case, but she says a personality disorder was not a diagnosis that typically could be made quickly.

The numbers

Military records show the personality disorder diagnosis is being used disproportionately on women, according to military records obtained by Yale Law School's Veterans Legal Services Clinic under a Freedom of Information Act request.

--In the Army, 16% of all soldiers are women, but females constitute 24% of all personality disorder discharges.

--Air Force: women make up 21% of the ranks and 35% of personality disorder discharges.

--Navy: 17% of sailors are women and 26% of personality disorder discharges

--Marines: 7% of the Corps and 14% of personality disorder discharges

The records don't reflect how many of those women had reported sexual assault.

The cost

A personality diagnosis discharge can carry a heavy financial burden.

In the military's eyes, a personality disorder diagnosis is a pre-existing condition and does not constitute a service-related disability. That means sexual assault victims with personality disorder discharges don't receive benefits from the Department of Veterans Affairs to help with their trauma. They can still apply for benefits, but it's considered an uphill battle.

There are other costs. For example, members of the armed forces who receive a personality disorder discharge lose education benefits under the GI Bill.

Moore, now 32 and married, says the Army came after her for $2,800 of the enlistment bonus she received when she signed up for six years. With interest and penalties, the bill topped $6,000. Moore says she's still paying it off.

hard to recover from that. I mean, it's akin to incest where you grow up with a family, with someone you trust, admire and in many cases, salute, is your perpetrator. It's a huge betrayal that often entails guilt, embarrassment, shame. You're made to feel that you did something wrong and you could have prevented it from happening."

In the civilian world, sexual assault victims can quit their jobs, go to court, go to the media, says J.D. Hamel, a Marine veteran and Yale Law student involved at the Veterans Legal Services Clinic. If higher-ups don't follow-up on allegations, Hamel explains, there is no other recourse.

"If the command doesn't deal with it, no one is going to deal with it," he says. "It's just a very lonely position to be in. It's hard for people who have never been in the military to realize how all-encompassing military life is."

Rep. Jackie Speier, D-California, says the military has used personality and other psychiatric diagnoses "almost robotically" to force women who report sexual assaults out of the service.

"It's the default position the military uses," says Speier, a member of the House Armed Services Committee. "The problem we have in the military is the unit commander is in charge of the entire process."

Speier has introduced legislation that would take sexual assault cases out of the chain of command and assign them to an autonomous office at the Pentagon.

Bhagwati says victims of sexual assault in the military should be able to sue for damages in civil court.

Until there's a deterrent, you're going to have far too much incentive to the average commander, to the average perpetrator, to do the wrong thing," she says. "It's far too convenient to do the wrong thing now."

Military response

The Pentagon has made changes in policy on personality disorder diagnoses and discharges.

Army guidelines enacted in 2008 require commanders to review administrative separations, such as personality and adjustment disorder discharges, for sexual assault victims. The commander must assess whether the separation "appears to be in retaliation" for reporting the sexual assault or involves a medical condition like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

After congressional hearings in 2008 looking into Afghanistan and Iraq combat veterans who received personality discharges, the Pentagon also changed the rules to require a psychiatrist or PhD-level psychologist to diagnose personality disorder on troops who "served or are currently serving in imminent danger pay areas."

The new rules require personality disorder diagnoses for combat veterans to be corroborated a by a peer or higher-level mental health professional and endorsed by the surgeon general of the relevant military branch. This added layer of protection against misdiagnoses does not affect sexual assault victims.

Bertzikis started blogging about her case and says she found other women -- and some men -- who described similar experiences. She has started two websites: stopmilitaryrape.org and mydutytospeak.com, a chance for victims of military sexual assault to share their stories.

"For me, writing has been very helpful," Bertzikis says.

At his January news conference, Secretary Panetta announced that for the first time service members who reported a sexual assault would be allowed to make an immediate request to transfer to a different unit. The commanding officer would then have 72 hours to decide whether to grant the request.

Panetta also ordered an assessment of the training that commanding officers and senior enlisted personnel receive on sexual assault prevention and response. That report is scheduled to be completed next month.

Moore and Schroeder each say they'd still be in the military if the military had aggressively pursued their attackers and allowed them to switch units. But Schroeder is skeptical about the Pentagon's efforts.

"It's all just talk. It's for show," Schroeder says.

Bertzikis started and runs the Military Rape Crisis Center, which helps victims of sexual assault in the military. She and Schroeder have joined a lawsuit suing the Defense Department for unspecified monetary damages for a culture that permitted sexual assaults.

Asked by CNN about the lawsuit, the Defense Department says it does not comment on pending litigation.

As for the personality and adjustment disorder discharges, the Pentagon tells CNN: "We encourage all separating service members who believe their discharges were incorrectly characterized or processed to request adjudication through their respective military department's Discharge Review Board and Board for Correction of Military Records."

McClendon, 41, is married and the mother of four. She teaches college humanities courses. Two or three times a week, she says she's awakened by nightmares.

Schroeder, 30, is getting a business degree and taking care of her daughters, who are in second and third grade. She says she suffers from anxiety and depression and is fighting the Department of Veterans Affairs for a PTSD diagnosis.

Moore, 32, received a diagnosis of PTSD from the Veterans Affairs and is on full disability.

"I have nightmares all the time and flashbacks and things like that," Moore says. "I'm still paranoid of the outside world and how cruel people can be -- because what my chain of command did to me was cruel and unnecessary." http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/14/health/military-sexual-assaults-personal
ity-disorder/index.html?hpt=hp_bn12
is coming out my ears. And the suggestion here isn't held by just one. Comments to the article include:
Quote:

Those girls should take matters to their own hands! KILL THOSE RAPIST!!! cmon! no justice will be given to you by someone else.

The proper military response was for these women to retrieve a weapon and shoot the responsible officer and her attacker. After a few of these "fraggings", the military would recognize the need to deal with the problem correctly.





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Monday, April 16, 2012 9:02 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Rape victims say military labels them 'crazy' =>


I recently met someone claiming she was raped in the military.

To be clear she was in the military, raped, was a rape counselor, was raped again, became a "commander" in the Air Force (not an Air Force rank) and was raped again, sued for sexual harassment (never mentioning any of her rapes), went to the Supreme Court (not really, the case was dismissed at the District Court level for lack of pretty much everything), was interviewed and invited to speak numerous times by liberal groups, anti-war groups, and MSNBC.

She wanted me to arrest the local school officials for allowing human sex trafficing because military recruiters could speak to women at the school. After that I was to prosecute the military...the ENTIRE military, for rape...including Dick Cheney all they way down to Private JustSignedUp. Oddly she wanted Bush prosecuted and Leon Panetta (who was SecDef at the time), but not Obama because he was such a nice man. I didn't think to ask about Joe Bidden, but then most people don't unless it's to ask 'what did he say now'?

Felt bad for her...worse for her dog but thats another story.

H

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Monday, April 16, 2012 10:01 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Hero/HOC: "I recently met someone claiming she was raped in the military."

She sounds like a nut case. Very likely someone who has been abused.

But it has nothing to do with the actual problem being discussed here.
People who invalidate, deny or ridicule victims of rape are vile.


. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:15 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That's really awful, and from the military perspective they are wasting the oppertunity to have willing soldiers fighting for them, it sounds like a couple of these women would have stayed in if things were handled the way they should have been, they would have gotten some counseling and the accusations would have been looked into and hopefully justice would have been served and everyone would have kept going with their lives, though rape is pretty scary and some people just aren't quite the same afterwords, but many are able to get through it okay with help. The point being that the military is being wasteful and dishonest and kind of transparent, personality disorders aren't really that common after all.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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