REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

COUP...TURKEY

POSTED BY: THGRRI
UPDATED: Monday, August 1, 2016 04:38
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2842
PAGE 1 of 1

Friday, July 15, 2016 4:27 PM

THGRRI


Attempted coup in Turkey. Updates welcome...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 5:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Holy crap!

I take a nap because I'm sick, and wake up to ... this!

Currently, the coup status is "under way", not yet successful. Of course, coup leaders (junior members of the military, supposedly) will fight to their finish because if they don't win their lives are already forfeit.


--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 5:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quickest updates seem to be at ZeroHedge

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-15/martial-law-declared-turkey-h
elicopters-military-jets-flying-over-capital-army-tanks


--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 5:46 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quickest updates seem to be at ZeroHedge

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-15/martial-law-declared-turkey-h
elicopters-military-jets-flying-over-capital-army-tanks


-------------



CBSN is covering it live for one. I am sure it is up and running on CNN as well.

____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 6:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Latest coverage is that Erdogan has requested civilians who support him go out on the street. IF true that is the last gasp of a dying government.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 6:35 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Latest coverage is that Erdogan has requested civilians who support him go out on the street. IF true that is the last gasp of a dying government.

--------------
]



It's true, I watched the news feed. He was using his phone or computer to contact a private news agency which aired the conversation. State TV has been shut down, after the military stated its demands on air.

____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 6:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And Erdogan would request asylum from .... Germany?

Hard to say, really, he's pissed off a lot of world leaders!

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 7:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Erdogan says that he's restoring control.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 7:51 PM

THGRRI


It looks like it is falling apart. I think it is failing.

____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 8:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Update 21: it appears that the coup is almost over. Moments ago anadolu reported that Turkish state TV resumes normal broadcast; The army member soldiers attempting TRT seizure taken into custody


--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 15, 2016 11:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


They shudda' got the US to pay for it, like in Ukraine.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 16, 2016 4:34 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


This attempt in the long term may simply drive Erdogan more insane worse than Venezuela's Chavez or a typical Islamist Arab dictator, seems Turkish links to ISIS have made people speak against the government's corruption....people in Turkey seem to either love or totally hate him as a leader? and now with the economic slump, open borders for jihad into Europe, the bomb attacks at the airport.....maybe it was too much for some military guys...has Erdogan become a failure? and now another historical militray coup attempt maybe Turkey is proven to be an unstable NATO ally!? and to think some elite idiots thought it should join wider Eurozone or the EU.

Remember Lord of the Rings Censorship?

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/man-facing-jail-over-gol
lum-meme/news-story/3e862063b53c29fa61dd9658dd2dbc17

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/12/02/a-turkis
h-court-appointed-five-lord-of-the-rings-experts-to-figure-out-whether-this-gollum-meme-is-offensive
/
remember this one? A Turkish court appointed five ‘Lord of the Rings’ experts to figure out whether this Gollum meme is offensive

the Military often sees itself as a guardian of Turkish secular democracy, and the Turkish government has prosecuted many artists and jailed more journalists than N.Korea and Iran combined....the attacks at the airport might have been the straw that finally broke the camels back
Did Erdogan's years of political rule break Ataturks vision was Turkey now abandoning a secular constitution, Erdogan rewriting Turkey's constitution against the original charter that Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and was Erdogan more Orthodox Islamist and signaling end of secularism in Turkey?
the Economy was already almost in free fall before the Coup
British Airways and German tour operators are canceling flights?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/turkey-flights-and-holidays
-what-should-i-do-if-i-am-in-turkey-o
/
Alarmist bulletin here -
Turkish PM: Flights cancelled, any movement will be shot down
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/175018/turkish-pm-flights-cancelled-
any-movement-will-be-shot-down

Tour operators cancel flights to Turkey, Dutch urged to stay indoors
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/07/tour-operators-cancel-fl
ights-to-turkey-dutch-urged-to-stay-indoors
/


As the media and facebook are shutdown...online gamer kids between Turkey, Europe and the USA try to make sense of what's happening..


some vids, make of it what you will

Turkey coup: images show people celebrating military coup




MARTIAL LAW anonymous turkish friend says " THERE IS A TANK NEAR MY HOUSE "



Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Turkey coup: "they will pay a heavy price, we will take all necessary steps"


CNN Turk, Other Outlets Shutdown Briefly By Soldiers



Lots of weapons lying around as troops surrender?
https://www.facebook.com/univisionnoticias/posts/10154663318969796:0

Shooting from Helicopter?



Military Coup In Turkey Attemps To Overthrow Erdogan & Turkish Government


Turkey Coup: Tank Runs Over Multiple Cars




Even if the Coup attempt was intended to be 'peaceful' for whatever reason there are many reports of wounded and dead.

Joe Cirincione ?tweeted on a military and national security issue
it should be noted that a number of nations have overseas military bases in Turkish areas, the United States has a base and the British have territory in Turkish North Cyprus.
Joe Cirincione says the United States of America 'should take coup as a warning. Time to take our 180 nuclear weapons out of Europe; out of Turkey'

the media from Russians claims to show an F-16 bombing the Presidential Palace
https://twitter.com/Ruptly/status/754239228775718912
lots of news on twitter now



The Latest: Nation of Georgia closes land, air borders with Turkey
https://www.yahoo.com/news/latest-government-says-least-60-dead-turkey
-042020124.html


The latest: Turkish PM says 161 killed in coup attempt
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2016/07/15/chaos-turkey-milita
ry-attempts-coup/2AixDJK3pZbbgM9iPUO1UP/story.html

Turkish Prime Minister Benali Yildirim says 161 people were killed in the country’s overnight military coup attempt. He says another more than 1,400 people were wounded in the chaos. More than 2,800 people have been detained.
He described the night as a ‘‘dark stain for Turkish democracy’’ and pinned blame for the coup on the ‘‘parallel terrorist organization.’’
That term is used by authorities to describe the movement of U.S.-based Islamist cleric Fethullah Gulen.

It Appears That The Coup In Turkey Has Failed!


amusing rightwing conspiracy commentator Gabor Zolna

The Ruskie Ruptly has the Pallywood rent-a-mob feature, I doubt many of these kids know Erdogan but they are out acting out protests for the cameras anyways,


Palestine: Hamas holds rally in support of Erdogan amid coup attempt

on twitter
https://twitter.com/hashtag/TurkeyCoup


international news agency Ankara (AFP) - President Recep Tayyip Erdogan battled to regain control over Turkey Saturday after a coup bid by discontented soldiers, as signs grew that the most serious challenge to his 13 years of dominant rule was faltering.
"What is being perpetrated is a treason and a rebellion. They will pay a heavy price for this act of treason," Erdogan said at the airport. "We will not leave our country to occupiers."

Turkey's parliament, which had been targeted by coup plotters and received extensive damage, was meanwhile holding an extraordinary session, broadcast live on television, while special forces were reportedly securing the headquarters of the military chief of staff.

Dozens of soldiers backing the coup surrendered on the Bosphorus bridge in Istanbul they had held throughout the night, holding their hands above their heads as they were detained, television pictures showed.

There was chaos in Istanbul as angry crowds took to the streets to boo the passing tanks, with smaller numbers welcoming the troops.


Military tanks on streets of Ankara
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cc3_1468619901

Turkey Martial Law?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4kdw1s_turkey-martial-law_news
Failed coup, Turkey plunged into chaos
vimeo.com/174914174

and of course the usual Alex Jones stuff that people would call tinfoil headed conspiracy???









The goverment of New Zealand has advisied against all non-essential travel to Turkey.
https://www.safetravel.govt.nz/turkey

Turkish military helicopter lands, people inside requested political asylum.
Initial reason for the emergency landing was mechanical failure. Turkey helicopter with 8 passengers requested and was given permission for an emergency landing in Alexandroupoli, as reported by ERT (author comment: State TV). It's a Black Hawk helicopter of turkish police and arrived in Greece without flight plan. According to early reports, it signaled emergency at 11:45 at the morning and landed in Alexandroupoli at 11:51.
When it entered FIR Athens two Greek F16 had taken off to escort it to the Alexandroupoli's airport 'Dimokritos'.
All 8 passengers are Turk military who have removed their insignia from their uniforms. Foreign ministry in Russia says it is "most concerned" by the events overnight.
it added:
"The flare-up of the domestic political situation against the backdrop of the existing terrorist threats in this country and the armed conflict in the region brings a heightened risk to international and regional stability."
Spiegel is reporting 194 total deaths so far. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/putschversuch-in-der-tuerkei
-militaer-spricht-von-machtuebernahme-a-1102987.html


euronews


Turkey 'coup attempt' underway - prime minister

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Erdogan says that he's restoring control.



Coup will probably be a failure....but FatLady hasn't sung her song
...maybe not over yet

some fighting continues in parts of the city

Turkish frigate warship seized in Golcuk naval base. Coup Supporters Seize Turkish Frigate, Hold Navy Turkish Fleet Commander Hostage. A Turkish group opposed to the government has taken over a warship frigate at Turkey's Golcuk Naval base.

Turkish army F-16s launched air strikes against tanks stationed by coup backers outside the presidential palace in Ankara, while the parliament was also bombed, leaving its offices wrecked.
https://www.afp.com/

Passenger Aircraft diverting from Turkish airspace
https://www.flightradar24.com

AFP news agency on Twitter: "#BREAKING Turkish F-16s shoot down helicopter carrying 'coup plotters': NTV television"
Reports 'ARMY HELICOPTERS FIRED AT TURKEY INTELLIGENCE, ARMY HQS?'
The military is now on the clock as it has to gain full control quickly against Turkey's own pro-coup military? and there were reports that 17 Turkish police officers were killed in a helicopter attack while an F16 shot down a pro-coup military helicopter.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 16, 2016 12:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Judges are being rounded up like cattle at the beginning of a cattle-drive. That'll teach them to worry about the rule of law!

and ...

Turkey Suspends All US Operations Against ISIS At Incirlik Airbase, Which Vaults B61 Nuclear Bombs
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-16/turkey-suspends-all-us-operat
ions-against-isis-incirlik-airbase-which-vaults-us-b61
-

Does Erdogan suspect the USA is behind the attempted coup? Or is he going full-bore Islamist, with the support of his peeps?


--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 16, 2016 2:13 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


The United States has overseas bases, Japan, Germany and yes unfortunately on a day like today also smack inside Turkey, some say there are quite some nuclear weapons in that base in Turkey, and it's been locked off by Turks, Turkish guards not protecting it now and the polical power almost cut off so to speak...some of the posts on unrest might be just rumors....I'm sure the US and its Allies have a plan to defend itself or secure itself if things ever go total crazy, right?


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Or is he going full-bore Islamist, with the support of his peeps?




There will always be a bunch of crazies that pray Mahometan in the Middle East, is Erdogan wise to mess with a Mohammedan mob


Also a number of reports of military causing civilian deaths in the failed Coup attempt

and then you have the Islamomaniac mobs

Turkish soldier 'beheaded by pro-government mob on Istanbul's Bosphorus Bridge' after failed coup attempt
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/turkish-soldier-beheaded-pro-g
overnment-8433319

Graphic video footage and images online show the soldier lying on the ground surrounded by a pool of blood.

He can be seen with horrific injuries after the attack.

He reportedly surrendered after last night's failed coup attempt but was allegedly attacked by pro-government supporters.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 16, 2016 3:34 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Judges are being rounded up like cattle at the beginning of a cattle-drive. That'll teach them to worry about the rule of law!

and ...

Turkey Suspends All US Operations Against ISIS At Incirlik Airbase, Which Vaults B61 Nuclear Bombs
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-16/turkey-suspends-all-us-operat
ions-against-isis-incirlik-airbase-which-vaults-us-b61
-

Does Erdogan suspect the USA is behind the attempted coup? Or is he going full-bore Islamist, with the support of his peeps?





Why do you criticize real sources of news yet continually post links to cites like Zero Hedge. The writers there conceal who they are and claim to be experts on varying topics. They are probably not.

____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 16, 2016 4:16 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Other sources

Turkey Interrupts U.S. Air Missions Against ISIS at Major Base
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/17/world/europe/turkey-us-incirlik-isis
.html?partner=IFTTT&_r=1


Cnn news Turkish office twitter
Turkish President Erdogan speaks live, calls U.S to hand over Fethullah Gulen to if U.S is strategic ally


Thgrri this one is directly from the US government

Emergency Message for U.S. Citizens: Incirlik Air Base, July 16. Be advised that local authorities are denying movements on to and off of Incirlik Air Base. The power there has also been cut. Please avoid the air base until normal operations have been restored.


turkey. usembassy .gov



Turkey Cuts Off Power To Incirlik Air Base, Grounding Anti-ISIS Air Operation
Town Hall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 17, 2016 9:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Why do you criticize real sources of news yet continually post links to cites like Zero Hedge. The writers there conceal who they are and claim to be experts on varying topics. They are probably not.
As I've often said about ZeroHedge, you have to wear a shit-screen on your mouth before you go swimming there. According to the contributors, it's always the end of something ... the end of the dollar, the end of the stock market, the end of the financial system, the end of the WORLD!

But their sources, whoever they are, get their news fast. And occasionally they do useful analyses, like the one that detected end-of-trading-day market manipulation and set the SEC on its trail. So if you can learn to separate news from apocalyptic hyperventilation ... always a useful skill ... it's a great place for one-stop shopping of all of the latest, and then some! Just make sure your shitscreen is fully in place before diving.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 17, 2016 9:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Erdogan is blaming the USA for this attempted coup. And according to NPR- which is always reflective of what the DNC wants you to think - even as (some) Turks are loudly celebrating the coup's failure, others are (very quietly) mourning its demise. Turkey, NPR says, is a divided nation.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 17, 2016 3:50 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


At height of Turkish coup bid, rebel jets had Erdogan's plane in their sights
http://www.reuters.com/
At the height of the attempt to overthrow Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan, the rebel pilots of two F-16 fighter jets had Erdogan's plane in their sights. And yet he was able to fly on.

The Turkish leader was returning to Istanbul from a holiday near the coastal resort of Marmaris after a faction in the military launched the coup attempt on Friday night, sealing off a bridge across the Bosphorus, trying to capture Istanbul's main airport and sending tanks to parliament in Ankara.

"At least two F-16s harassed Erdogan's plane while it was in the air and en route to Istanbul. They locked their radars on his plane and on two other F-16s protecting him," a former military officer with knowledge of the events told Reuters.

"Why they didn't fire is a mystery," he said.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-latest-isis
-syria-iraq-not-viable-partner-france-foreign-minister-a7141501.html


Turkey may no longer be a viable partner in fight against Isis following coup, says French foreign minister

'There are questions that are being asked and we will ask them. [Turkey] is partly viable but there are suspicions as well. Let’s be honest about this'


France’s foreign minister has said Turkey may no longer be a viable partner in the fight against Isis in Syria, while Syrian state media has claimed the failed coup in the country was fabricated by President Erdogan to tarnish the military's reputation.

French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault raised concerns over Turkey's ability to fight Isis amid growing political instability in the country following the attempted coup against Mr Erdogan’s regime.

He said: “There are questions that are being asked and we will ask them. [Turkey] is partly viable but there are suspicions as well. Let’s be honest about this.”


Turkey reopens air base for U.S fight against Islamic State: Pentagon


Turkey will reopen its Incirlik air base to U.S. planes, used to attack Islamic State, following an attempted coup, the Pentagon said on Sunday.




On NBC's "Meet the Press" on Sunday, Kerry was asked if Turkey's president Tayyip Erdogan would use the coup attempt to seize more power.

Kerry said such a move by Erdogan would be a challenge to his relationship with Europe, with NATO and others.

"We have urged them not to reach out so far that they are creating doubts about their commitment to the democratic process," he said.

Erdogan has blamed his rival, Fethullah Gulen, for masterminding the coup attempt. Gulen, who is currently living in Pennsylvania, has denied any involvement.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 18, 2016 12:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Turkish Prosecutors Raid Incirlik Airbase Housing US Warplanes And 50 Nuclear Bombs
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-18/turkish-prosecutors-raid-inci
rlik-airbase-housing-us-warplanes-and-50-nuclear-bombs


Erdogan Purges 20,000 As Europe Voices Concern Coup Was Staged With "Prepared Arrest Lists"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-18/erdogan-purges-8000-cops-euro
pe-voices-concern-coup-was-staged-prepared-arrest-lists



I've been saying for quite a while- at least over a year- that there seemed to be some fundamental shifts going on in the mideast - that old alliances and old bargains no longer held. The Saudis and USA seem to be more at-a-distance (except Hillary, who seems to want to jump back into bed with KSA).

The secular-Kamalist Turkey is no more: Erdogan has spent the past eight years promoting Islamization, and the past five years assisting in the destruction of Libya (secular) and Syria (secular) using ISIL. What does this say about NATO, of which Turkey is a member?

ISIL is a new phenomenon, although funded by, but not under control of al Qaida and the KSA.

The USA's strategy of using KSA-funded jihadists in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia, Libya and Syria seems to have developed significant blowback.

The price of oil is at historic lows.

What's going to happen next???




--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 18, 2016 4:11 PM

THGRRI


Boy has this thread gone to shit, lies and false reporting.

Zero Hedge is a financial blog that aggregates news and presents editorial opinions from original and outside sources. The news portion of the site is written by a group of editors who collectively write under the pseudonym "Tyler Durden" (a character from the novel and film Fight Club).

AND, some of the news you credit to them actually comes from RT. Yano, Russian propaganda.

____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 18, 2016 11:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


What I like about Zero Hedge is that their articles are a Swiss cheese of links. So if you want to go back to the original source, chances are you'll find it. That's commendable. They act like they've got nothing to hide. Unlike a lot of other supposedly 'reputable sources' that bury their news slant behind selective quoting, cherry-picked facts, anonymous sources, official pronouncements, and all the usual propaganda tools.

Yeah, I'm looking at YOU, New York Times.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:21 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
What I like about Zero Hedge is that their articles are a Swiss cheese of links. So if you want to go back to the original source, chances are you'll find it. That's commendable. They act like they've got nothing to hide. Unlike a lot of other supposedly 'reputable sources' that bury their news slant behind selective quoting, cherry-picked facts, anonymous sources, official pronouncements, and all the usual propaganda tools.

Yeah, I'm looking at YOU, New York Times.




Nothing to hide, you're stupid beyond belief. How about who are they? How about hiding the fact that they are pulling stories from RT and other propaganda news agencies?

____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Boy has this thread gone to shit, lies and false reporting.

Are there any SPECIFIC items that you take issue with?

Probably not.

Anyway. Been talking about this with hubby and scanning various sources (Saker, Pepe Escobar, others) Judging by the swift action of Erdogan in rounding up suspects, the consensus is that he had pre=prepared lists. The coup, it was generally agreed, was amateurish. I can't remember where I read this, but there was a contention that the coup plotters knew that Erdogan was preparing a list already, and so they started earlier than they were really prepared for.

Also, judging by the tepid support from the western powers for the Erdogan government (western powers waited until the coup was pretty much over before hailing the survival of democracy! in Turkey) and Erdogan's rapid blame-laying of the coup on "anyone who supports Gulen" (i.e the USA) I suspect that this was a result of the USA using the Kamalist faction of the Turkish military. No love lost between Turkey and the EU/USA/NATO.

So now Turkey and the USA/NATO are like a married couple who don't trust each other, even for their lives, but still need each other existentially. Great. Just great.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Boy has this thread gone to shit, lies and false reporting. -THUGR

Are there any SPECIFIC items that you take issue with? - SIGNY



Well?

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


NOT TRUE!

It's possible to have international relations on a real concurrence of interests. The only reason why the USA "has" to "put up with" Erdogan is because he serves part of a greater plan - that plan which is, as far as I can tell, both evil and ultimately unachievable.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It's possible to have international relations on a real concurrence of interests.



Exactly! That was this part: "I think you may begin to understand how we can appear to be in bed with some people that we don't really trust or like."

International Relations are always self interest first. What kind of leader would go to his people and say, "This is going to hurt us and we'll never reap any rewards, but I think we should do this thing for another country." There's always a reward in mind, even if it's delayed.



One of our (and I mean USA foreign policy "our") problems with international relations is that we insufficiently define what "our" interests are, fail to respond in a timely way to changes in the interests of partner nations, and fail to project in the medium and long-term the results of our policies.

So what, exactly, does Turkey do for us that makes it worth our while to support a very active supporter of ISIL?



--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:57 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It's possible to have international relations on a real concurrence of interests.



Exactly! That was this part: "I think you may begin to understand how we can appear to be in bed with some people that we don't really trust or like."

International Relations are always self interest first. What kind of leader would go to his people and say, "This is going to hurt us and we'll never reap any rewards, but I think we should do this thing for another country." There's always a reward in mind, even if it's delayed.



One of our (and I mean USA foreign policy "our") problems with international relations is that we insufficiently define what "our" interests are, fail to respond in a timely way to changes in the interests of partner nations, and fail to project in the medium and long-term the results of our policies.

So what, exactly, does Turkey do for us that makes it worth our while to support a very active supporter of ISIL?




Since SIG claims to be a chemist, I think I’ll breakdown the process through which one country (in this case America) tries to find common ground with another country. Between which there is a vast chasm of values, so they may come to a concurrence based on mutual interests. Let me explain osmoses to you SIG.

It is the tendency of a fluid to pass through a semipermeable membrane into a solution where the solvent concentration is higher, (in this case the chasm pertaining to values) thus equalizing the concentrations of materials on either side of the membrane. The diffusion of fluids through membranes or porous partitions. ( to create a situation where a concurrence of mutual interests can occur).

Saudi Araba has oil. In order for that oil to pass from the Saudis to America, we need to allow for it to pass through the membrane (which in this case is human rights violations). Same thing with allies like Turkey. They do not support DASH, but because they are Assad’s biggest rivals, weakening DASH to the point of curtailing their assault on Assad did not seem prudent. Their logic was, after DASH did away with Assad, Turkey would then crush DASH. This may not have been the best way forward for Turkey, but it is nonetheless why they have proceeded the way they have.

You know this SIG. If you truly didn’t, then you would be guilty of not understanding how the world works, or at the very least, not doing the proper amount of research to make an intelligent argument concerning the complexities of international relationships. Care to admit to that?

"In support of overall United States Cold War strategy, Turkey contributed personnel to the UN forces in the Korean War (1950-53), joined NATO in 1952, became a founding member of the Central Treaty Organization (CENTO) collective defense pact established in 1955, and endorsed the principles of the 1957 Eisenhower Doctrine. Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, Turkey generally cooperated with other United States allies in the Middle East (Iran, Israel, and Jordan) to contain the influence of those countries (Egypt, Iraq, and Syria) regarded as Soviet clients."

http://countrystudies.us/turkey/90.htm




____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 19, 2016 4:23 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Cleaning house with a blow torch.

http://wapo.st/29IINc5

Turkey suspends more than 15,000 education workers in widening purge

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey suspended more than 15,000 Education Ministry workers on Tuesday and demanded resignations from all university deans as authorities widened their far-reaching crackdowns in the wake of a failed coup attempt.

The 15,200 personnel were being investigated for links to the power grab launched last week, the ministry said in a statement. In addition, 1,577 university deans from Turkey's public and private universities were asked to hand in their notice. A further 492 staff were removed from duty at the country's top Islamic authority.

It marked an escalation in a purge of state institutions after a mutinous faction of Turkey’s military staged an attempted overthrow on Friday night, hijacking fighter jets and helicopters to strike key installations and security forces.

Tens of thousands of military officials, police, judges, governors and civil servants have been fired, detained or put under scrutiny — accused of having links to Fethullah Gulen, a cleric living in self-imposed exile in Pennsylvania, who Turkey accuses of being behind the plot.

Gulen — whose backers operate schools in Turkey, the United States and elsewhere — has denied the claims. Critics of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan have warned that he is using it as an opportunity to stamp out any opposition to his government.

Meanwhile, the United States and Europe have urged NATO-ally Turkey to follow the rule of law and maintain democratic principles amid the sweeping fallout from the coup attempt.

But Turkish leaders showed no signs of easing up. Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said Tuesday that Turkey aims to remove Gulen’s movement "by its roots." Gulen was once a close ally of Erdogan, but the men are now rivals.

Yildirim said that Turkey had formally requested Gulen’s extradition, saying his role in the events of last week was “clear.”

“However, we will provide them with a pile of evidence,” he added, according to the state-run Anadolu agency.

Secretary of State John F. Kerry has said previously that the United States would be open to such a request, but that Turkey must provide evidence that meets U.S. legal standards. The State Department had no further comment Tuesday despite repeated requests from journalists.

About 35,000 bureaucrats and others have been fired, detained or suspended. The total includes nearly 9,000 Interior Ministry personnel suspended Monday. Annual leave for more than 3 million civil servants has been canceled.

{ Damn! }

Earlier Tuesday, the Turkish military said it had received intelligence that a rogue element was embarking on a coup hours before hijacked tanks were deployed to the streets and rebel-piloted F-16s bombed key buildings in the capital. The timetable raised questions about why quicker action was not taken to interrupt the plot.

The military said in a statement that it was given information on the coup plot by the National Intelligence Organization at 4 p.m. local time and informed relevant authorities. That was several hours before bridges in Istanbul were cut in one of the first public signs that a power grab was underway.

In an interview with CNN, Erdogan said he was with his family in the coastal resort of Marmaris when the fast-moving events began on Friday. Two of his bodyguards were killed in an operation against him, he said, adding that “if I had stayed 10 or 15 additional minutes there, I would have been killed or I would have been taken.”

It will be interesting to see how the US handles the extradition. They almost have to give him up. With Erdogan in such a paranoid state it would be dangerous for any future relations to seem contrary. And if they do give him up I'm not sure I see him going willingly - shootout at the compound in PA in other words.




So just what are witnessing here. Is it a failed coup of a few, or a leader destroying the rule of law, ending democracy in his country and becoming a dictator?

____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 20, 2016 5:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Saudi Araba has oil. In order for that oil to pass from the Saudis to America, we need to allow for it to pass through the membrane (which in this case is human rights violations).
Okay ... that is what we get out of the KSA. It's more complicated than that, tho. In addition to oil, we have the "petrodollar" agreement with the KSA. In return, not only do we allow total failure on women's rights within the KSA, we've also allowed them to export Wahhabism - the basis for extremist Muslim terrorism - throughout the Mideast, South Asia, and N Africa.

So, how's that deal working for us now?

Time to revisit, or still more positive than negative?

Quote:

Same thing with allies like Turkey. They do not support DASH
Are you fucking kidding? They have been buying ISIL oil and shipping arms to ISIL, it's been quite a lucrative trade for Bilal Erdogan, and you could see it from space, the convoys were so long.

Quote:

but because they are Assad’s biggest rivals, weakening DASH to the point of curtailing their assault on Assad did not seem prudent. Their logic was, after DASH did away with Assad, Turkey would then crush DASH.
That is YOUR logic. But since there are critical provable, factual errors in your post, I doubt that it represents reality.
Quote:

This may not have been the best way forward for Turkey, but it is nonetheless why they have proceeded the way they have.


Okay, but why does the USA State Dept/ CIA tolerate Turkey's support of ISIL? They are, after all, still part of NATO altho they seem to be working at cross purposes to several of our stated goals for the mideast. So what do WE get out of it? As you said, there is supposed to be a quid pro quo .... what is it?

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 20, 2016 5:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So just what are witnessing here. Is it a failed coup of a few, or a leader destroying the rule of law, ending democracy in his country and becoming a dictator?
All of the above? And with the support of "the people" apparently.


--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 20, 2016 7:52 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


WikiLeaks Dumps ‘Erdogan Emails’ After Turkey’s Failed Coup
https://www.wired.com/2016/07/wikileaks-dumps-erdogan-emails-turkeys-f
ailed-coup/?mbid=social_fb


....
On Tuesday, WikiLeaks published what it’s calling the Erdogan Emails, a searchable collection of 294,548 emails it says are leaked from the AKP, Turkey’s ruling political party, and the organization president Erdogan led before he was elected president. Turkish citizens and the world community are still struggling to understand the context of Turkey’s coup and the crackdown that’s followed, all of which could make this alleged Erdogan leak more significant than the secret-spilling group’s average data dump. However, at the time of writing, it’s not at all clear yet what exactly the Turkish-language megaleak contains, or if the emails are what Wikileaks claims they are.

“The material was obtained a week before the attempted coup. However, WikiLeaks has moved forward its publication schedule in response to the government’s post-coup purges,” reads a note posted with the release on WikiLeaks’ site. “We have verified the material and the source, who is not connected, in any way, to the elements behind the attempted coup, or to a rival political party or state.”

The dump arrives at an incredibly sensitive time for Erdogan’s regime, in the wake of an attempted coup by a faction of the Turkish military, who Erdogan accuses of being loyal to US-based cleric Fethullah Gülen. Erdogan, on vacation in the south of the country at the time, called on Turkish citizens to take to the streets to stand up for democracy via an iPhone held to a TV camera. They listened, flooding into Istanbul and Ankara and blocking the military’s tanks and even capturing its soldiers.

In the wake of that failed putsch, some international observers have wondered whether Erdogan may have allowed the coup attempt or even somehow planned it. What we do know is that he’s now using it as justification to seize more control of the Turkey’s teetering democracy and punish his political foes. Erdogan’s regime responded in the following days by arresting 3,000 members of the military and as many judges and prosecutors, along with as many as 15,000 university staffers. He’s even said he’s considering reinstating the death penalty. European Union Commissioner Johannes Hahn, who handled Turkey’s bid to join the EU, said Monday that the regime seemed to have lists of arrests prepared since even before the coup.

According to Wikileaks, the data dump includes years of emails, some as recent as July 6, that may shed some light on those conspiracy theories. But whether Turkish citizens will actually be able to read WikiLeaks’ revelations is a separate question. The country’s government has a habit of throttling access to key websites during moments of political crisis, and blocked YouTube, Twitter and Facebook in the first hours of the attempted coup, before relenting to allow protestors to access the sites.

As of Tuesday afternoon, WikiLeaks wasn’t blocked or throttled in Turkey, the Turkish censorship monitoring group Turkey Blocks tells WIRED. But WikiLeaks has said in its Twitter feed that it’s been under sustained cyberattacks—likely floods of junk web traffic known as distributed denial of service attacks—since Monday, seemingly an effort to take the site offline or prevent its release. In fact, by early Tuesday evening the Erdogan Emails were suddenly behind a password login, which Wikileaks tells WIRED was the result of a DDoS attack.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 30, 2016 8:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


OK, so now I get to put some thoughts together on the failed Turkish coup.

This is one of those cases where everyone has a story to tell, not necessarily true, and some stories have been changed midstream.

I guess the first story to parse is Erdogan's.

During the NATO destruction of Libya, Saudi Arabia and Qatar got into competition supplying arms to their jihadist forces on the ground. I recall posting an article which detailed the approx 78 planeloads of arms being shipped THRU TURKISH AIRPORTS to Libyan extremists. (Qatar won, btw.)

Now, since Turkey is a NATO country it's certain that NATO was well aware of the arms being shipped through Turkey.

Then, once Libya was destroyed, the CIA started shipping arms again out of Benghazi to Syria, ONCE AGAIN THRU TURKEY.

The Syrian Sarin gas attack, a false flag blamed on Assad and designed to bring the USA into the war, was probably abetted through the Turkish border.

Turkey also maintained an open corridor to ISIL in Syria, allowing arms and fresh ISIL fighters to pass in one direction while allowing wounded ISIL fighters in for treatment. Erdogan's son, Balil, made a lot of money trading ISIL oil thru Turkey (as well as Kurdish oil from Iraq).

And finally, the Turkish airforce shot down an Russian fighter jet over Syria, and shot at and killed the pilot as he drifted down on a chute.

Overall, you could make a case that Erdogan was enthusiastically involved in destroying Syria, even to the point of providing significant support for ISIL.

At the same time, however, Turkey was negotiating major gas pipelines with both Russia and the west. The shoot-down of the Russian jet put a major kibosh on the deal.

However, the narrative starts falling apart when Turkey's apparently moderate, pro-western PM, Davutoglu, resigns. ISIL attacks start up afterwards. Erdogan also steps up his military campaign against the Kurds in his nation at the same time the US-backed Kurds in Syria start making significant progress.

Erdogan then makes several significant foreign policy moves, extending a hand of peace to Israel and Iran, and apologizing for (or at least regretting) the Russian jet shoot-down. Almost immediately afterwards, an attempted coup is sprung, and fails.

Post-coup, Turkey repeatedly encircles NATO's AFB at Incirlik (which is once again surrounded by Turkish troops), accuses the USA of fomenting the coup, formally requests the extradition of Gulen, and moves closer to Russia. Erdogan's story NOW is that the pilot who shot down the Russian jet was a pro-western traitor who did so without orders. NOW he blames his pro-ISIL activities on the USA.

None of these are coincidences, and clearly, there is more going on than pro-or-anti-ISIL, more than pro-or-anti-Assad.

BUT, I have things I have to get to NOW, so ... more later!

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, August 1, 2016 4:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SO, to continue.

While one could make the case that Erdogan was relentlessly pro-ISIL/ anti-Assad, that doesn't explain his activity supporting the destruction of Libya. In the short run, Erdogan stood to gain NOTHING from gun-running for the various jihadist groups in Libya. And unless he was "read into" some longer-term plan (assurances that those guns would be returning to Syria) and/or was accepting bribes I can't see any benefit to him or his power base in regards to Libya. So his gun-running into Libya wasn't really for his benefit, but it might have been overlooked -or even encouraged- by the USA CIA and State Dept neocons who were driving that particular bus.



----------

USA role seems quite a bit clearer. The USA has long used various jihadists to do its dirty work in toppling the various (secular) regimes that it didn't like. It's not particularly picky about WHICH horse it's riding ... whether the mujahideen or warlords or ISIL.... as long as the horse gets it closer to the finish line. The mujahideen were extremely useful against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Embedded within the mujahideen was Osama bin Laden and the progenitor of al Qaeda. That group of Arabs (not native Afghanis) also proved useful against Russia in Chechnya.

Now, for various reasons the USA got a grotch against Libya (probably because Qaddafi was planning a gold-based African currency .... and he had the gold to do it) so the USA turned NATO and al Qaida on Libya. But Syria was also in the cross-hairs, and it was only a matter of time until both USA weaponry and jihadists were turned on Syria as well. Saudi Arabia had, for whatever reason, a particular urgency to topple Assad, and tried to manipulate the USA into bombing Assad by constructing a Sarin "gas attack" which was supposed to be a "red line". When Obama failed to take the bait, Saudi Arabia was probably disappointed.

In any case, the USA was backing various proxy groups in Syria ... ISIL, by failing to officially noticed the supplies that NATO member Turkey was trading for oil, al Qaida, and the various stripes of native Sunni extremists who came out of the woodwork in support of Sunni jihadism, under the guise of supporting "moderate rebels". However, neither group ultimately was able to turn the tide, so the USA backed another proxy group- the Kurds- and this is what probably created the rift between Turkey and the USA.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:50 - 3410 posts
Elections; 2024
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:18 - 2071 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:16 - 6 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 05:27 - 6154 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts
RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
Wed, March 27, 2024 11:59 - 16 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Wed, March 27, 2024 10:57 - 49 posts
Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
Tue, March 26, 2024 21:26 - 1 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL