REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Some Say Boxing Is A Sport

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 21:29
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Friday, October 18, 2019 4:57 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Heard this news the other day.


Here is a version of the story sympathetic to the sport that kills people.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/patrick-day-boxed-for-the-love-of-the-spor
t-and-unfortunately-paid-the-ultimate-price-012643684.html

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Friday, October 18, 2019 9:47 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Most say that Boxing is a sport.

I'm surprised that you don't.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, October 19, 2019 9:24 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


It's a sport with risks, those risks are small but even with the sport getting more controlled and safer those risks they are still there. Always someone will die after a while, they try be safe but eventually someone dies, what makes it worse is the punching and more punching which to a untrained eye it almost looks like a massacre murder against a lesser fighter. The sport is just to people in a physical competition, they want to beat the other guy but nobody really wants to injure or destory the other person, its a sport not a war.


Sometimes I know where articles like this go without even clicking on it, ocassionally I get surprised when the book is a little different to the cover but sometimes I feel with the political spin everything is becoming predictable, maybe i get surprised some times

Yes its a sport, without the corruption it could be an even better sport. It's been a sport for thousands of years back to the days of Rome, Egypt and Greece just as China and Japan have their combat sports and just as Wrestling or Judo are olympic combat sports
Thailand kick boxing or Muay Thai is a normal part of Thai life, Sumo is part of Japan heritage.
If you are afraid of combat would you justify a ban of Kendo Japanese fencing, Modern Olympic fencing and Paintball paint guns

Once in a while you will hear a political activist, maybe they say its weakling complain with their own sorrow and psycological baggage.
Should I bother to read a boring article wrote by a weak person, with their mental burdens afraid of NFL afraid of running afraid of any kind of physical competition, a professional activist wanting to ban all?
but then again maybe its true, boxing is a violent sport?
btw Race Car Driving, people taking big hits from diving in water that break thier bodies, falling down a mountian while skiing, sudden heart failure in Soccer, Horse Racing, Gymnastics all kill far more people

I guess some people flinch or get scared with the combat nature of boxing, they see Striking and they are reminded of agression, maybe crime or bullying or something. I met many boxers and some were great people, Buddhist and Christian preacher and universal zen type attitudes, they could knock a person out but they were peaceful when they wanted to be a very respectful person.


Boxing has become a lot more safe but I guess it can become safer
it is dangerous to set up rookie newbie guys against a highly trained and skilled guy who has been knocking others down
another flaw can be the mothods they use to cut the weight category, for example the diet or avoiding fuilds before a fight weigh in this was done in the past and it can do as much or more damage as the punches taken in the fight.


anyways I did click on the article and read it
and it did surprise me, it was measured, it dealt with sorrow and tragedy but in the right way and respectful, i guess that's something missing in todays political world

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Saturday, October 19, 2019 9:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You know, in Rome gladiator fights were also a sport. Unarmed bull fighting and 'to-the-death' wrestling were sports in Greece. I don't know what 'to-the-death' sports were fought in Egypt, China, or Japan, but I'd wager there were a few.

As I've read, back in the day, people had a different ethic, which was very much like certain American Indian tribes. That ethic didn't emphasize the tragedy of a pointless death in a mere game, it focused on whether that person met their death/fate with courage. That's what people went to see. The human spirit contending with its fate.

So there are a lot of things people used to do that we don't do today. We no longer think fighting 'to-the-death' is worth while.

But, honestly, there's just too much widespread brain damage from boxing, football, and heading balls in soccer - and I'm sure other sports - to justify that commercial, meaningless, entertainment as a worthwhile thing to do.

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 4:47 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


That's not up to you, or anybody who's not a boxer or football player to decide.

They might not have known the risks going into it back in the day, but they are very well aware of them going into it today. Who are you or anybody else to decide that for them?


I'm not trying to be confrontational here. Just stating things the way I see it.

It's not as if these people were going to be curing cancer with those brains. The fact that we have a story of a pretty intelligent guy who had a college education choose boxing over using his brain and ended up dying because of it doesn't change that fact. He did what he wanted to do.

It's a free country.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 5:45 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Who are you or anybody else to decide that for them?"

I think any sport that routinely results in brain damage should be banned in elementary, middle, and high schools. After that, whatever people chose to do is fine with me.

But it seems crazy to me that people are being permanently brain damaged just so some Joe Sixpack can get his steam up on a sunday with his beer and chips and buds, and turn off the tv and forget about it till the next game. Sheesh. Talk about life being cheap. We might as well have a sport where people play Russian Roulette.

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 6:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I suppose in its purest form, yes it is a sport.

But any sport which relies so heavily on judging is open for corruption. Just as we saw with the Olympic figure skating scandals.

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 9:08 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
"Who are you or anybody else to decide that for them?"

I think any sport that routinely results in brain damage should be banned in elementary, middle, and high schools. After that, whatever people chose to do is fine with me.

But it seems crazy to me that people are being permanently brain damaged just so some Joe Sixpack can get his steam up on a sunday with his beer and chips and buds, and turn off the tv and forget about it till the next game. Sheesh. Talk about life being cheap. We might as well have a sport where people play Russian Roulette.




I can see that argument, but the truth is that we have those sports and kids still do their own back yard wrestling. We banned cigarettes for minors and weed was illegal everywhere, yet kids have always smoked both and they're doing meth all over the country.

Kids are going to find plenty of ways to handicap or kill themselves. Intentional or not. With the potential of actually making a life or getting a free ride to college or not. Whether we like it or not.



And besides...



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 9:28 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


That's also not to mention the fact that if you ban all football until kids are 18, you've essentially killed what is arguably the most popular sport in the country. Once the veterans all retire, nobody will be any good at it anymore and nobody is going to watch it anymore. I'm not sure how you're going to sell that to the billionaires who would stand to lose their billions because some kids get injured or killed in freak occurances along the way.

Boxing isn't even that popular these days anyhow. That's not to say that people have abandoned a brutal pseudo-sport from the old days, however. The kids just consider it to be their grand-dad's MMA, which is arguably much more brutal than boxing.



I should state as a disclaimer that I don't watch or enjoy any of these sports, including the MMA. The only sports I ever regularly watched when I was a kid was baseball and basketball.

But I will also say that my take on the whole "juicing" scandal in baseball is much different than a lot of other people. Considering the insane amounts of money that professional athletes make, I want to see mutants on the field. 100 homeruns per season should be an average for the super stars.





League minimum for the very worst baseball player in the US: $550,000

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2019/03/29/mlb-salaries-leag
ue-minimum-baseball/3306763002
/

Yearly salary for the President of the United States: $400,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States


No wonder all of our politicians are corrupt as shit. When every guy on this list makes more money above the commander in chief every year than it would take me 5 to 7 years to make at the jobs I'm currently qualified for.

https://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/the_10_worst_mlb_players_so_fa
r_in_2019/s1_12740_29004800


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 10:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Oh the poor billionaires, losing money. My heart bleeds for them.


On the inside of the brain are long nerves connecting one region of the brain to another. These nerves are inches long but only microscopically wide - as wide as a single cell. They're found in 'bundles' called tracts. Only recently has a new technique called 'diffusion tensor imagining' allowed these deep-brain tracts to be seen.



When the head undergoes rapid acceleration(deceleration) (both are properly called acceleration), parts of the brain move in different directions causing these long fibers to snap. After all, it's not like the brain has any connective tissue holding things together. The tracts normally found in brains become broken, and the various parts of the brain that should be talking to one another become disconnected.

Scientists have found defective brain anatomy in young people (1) who play football, head soccer balls, BOX, etc.

Sadly, the FACT is that every single young person (2) who plays these brain-damaging sports ends up with detectable brain damage, linked with poor real-life functioning and later traumatic encephalopathy.

This is something we shouldn't be intentionally doing to our kids through school auspices (3).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5728158/

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/neu.2019.6398?journalCode=n
eu


https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/10/football-kids-heads
/504863
/

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/entertainment/sfp-u-s-soccer-heading-the-
ball-limited-in-youth-soccer-20151119-story.html


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/soccer-study-ties-heading-to-brain-damage/

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/871231

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2019.00538/full

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2016/11/28/brain-abnormalit
ies-linked-to-head-impacts-after-just-one-season-of-high-school-football/#51ce674f2a21


https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/should-potential-risk-chr
onic-traumatic-encephalopathy-be-discussed-young-athletes/2017-07


https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/radiol.2016160564

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/qa-soccer-players-wear-helmets-top
-neurosurgeon-weighs-concussion-risks


http://www.jlgh.org/Past-Issues/Volume-8---Issue-3/Concussion-in-Ameri
can-Football-and-Sports.aspx


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4651044/


It would be interesting to see if modifying sports - not allowing tacking, ball-heading, etc would reduce brain injuries. It seems like it should. But some sports - like boxing - don't seem to have alternatives.

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 10:36 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I'm not going to get huffy or defensive about being wrong.

The truth is, I don't care. Most people don't, billionaires or not.

Most people don't want to be part of a nanny state culture that coddles them with kid gloves in their padded cells. Especially men.

If you take football and other sports you take issue with away from them, they're just going to find other ways to hurt themselves and each other. This is doubly true for those young enough to still live under that delusion that they're the bright shiny center of the universe and they're invincible.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 10:44 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Jack - I edited out that part and I apologize for it. It was unnecessarily personal. I also added that if kids (4) want to do that to themselves, or each other, that's on them. But we as a society shouldn't be paying for 100% of them to get provably damaged through official school auspices (5).

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 11:16 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Jack - I edited out that part and I apologize for it. It was unnecessarily personal. I also added that if kids want to do that to themselves, or each other, that's on them. But we as a society shouldn't be paying for 100% of them to get provably damaged through official school auspices.



No worries. I try to overlook these things since I like you even though we don't agree on things and things can sometimes get heated between us outside of the G&R thread.

I don't know the answer to the question. You're not wrong. I'm not denying the science behind this. But you can't deny the science behind the reasoning that people use when they choose to do these things or the science behind why folks find these things so entertaining either.

I'm sure for the kids, the potential to be famous and have a lot of money is a factor, but I think most of them would do it just because it's fun. Kid's smoke because it's fun. Also, arguably, because they're not supposed to. The same with drugs.

I brought up the billionaires just as an example of why these sports will never go away. It's not just the billionaires making money here. Eliminating football up through high school would negatively impact the lives of so many people all the way down to the hot dog and beer vendors. Nobody is going to choose watching chess as a sport as an alternative to football or boxing who isn't already doing so.

As for why people are so entertained by these things, I couldn't personally say. They've never held any draw to me, and when I see friends and peers talk non stop about football or join their fantasy leagues I think of them as being like little kids that never grew up and are living their lives vicariously through others that won the genetic lottery and can do things that most of us would never be capable of. If you eliminate these sports, you also eliminate the catalyst of whatever chemical neuron-firing reward mechanism millions of people enjoy while rooting for their favorite teams or players.


At the end of the day, I take a pretty nihilistic approach to this, as I do with most things. Sure... they're kids. But so what? Most adults suck. Kids are just future adults that are most likely going to suck. Maybe if I had a kid of my own I'd be put in the hypocritical spot of caring about an individual more than I do the collective, but I don't. Like I said, I think steroids should not only be legal in professional sports, but they should (and would) be mandatory (since nobody could even compete without them if they were legal).



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 2:45 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
"Who are you or anybody else to decide that for them?"

I think any sport that routinely results in brain damage should be banned in elementary, middle, and high schools. After that, whatever people chose to do is fine with me.

But it seems crazy to me that people are being permanently brain damaged just so some Joe Sixpack can get his steam up on a sunday with his beer and chips and buds, and turn off the tv and forget about it till the next game. Sheesh. Talk about life being cheap. We might as well have a sport where people play Russian Roulette.

I can see that argument, but the truth is that we have those sports and kids still do their own back yard wrestling. We banned cigarettes for minors and weed was illegal everywhere, yet kids have always smoked both and they're doing meth all over the country.

Kids are going to find plenty of ways to handicap or kill themselves. Intentional or not. With the potential of actually making a life or getting a free ride to college or not. Whether we like it or not.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I don't know if you are just reaching, or if you are lost on some tangent.

Can you provide links to your meth sporting leagues, or Meth championships, or Meth wagering pools?
How is Meth scored? If you live, you win?

Can you provide links to your Cocaine sporting leagues, or Cocaine championships, or Cocaine betting pools? How to score - if you live that round, you win that round? Or is it the total number of hits before you die or become paralyzed?

How does that work?
How does that compare to Professional Sporting Events?


In several cultures, sports are fashioned after the simulation of the Warrior Ethic. War combatants, or Professional Warriors, are held to high esteem by those who appreciate Freedom and Liberty.
How much damage or injury a warrior can withstand and still remain effective in Combat Theater is a real equation, resulting in success or death not only for the individual warrior, but for the entire Unit, Army, Nation. Many of these sports are testing the durability of head beatings which compromise the ability to think clearly, which is still needed to accomplish Victory.

Here I'll post a quote that I provided in another thread:

Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I've never been up in the air in a hot air balloon. I know absolutely nothing about it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Generally speaking, potential Pilots are assessed regarding their flying aptitude.
Not so hot, you get helicopters. Rotary wing.
Better, you get cargo planes, like C-130, C-5, etc. Fixed wings.
Better, you get assigned to Bombers. Fixed wings, but more finesse than cargo.
The best, you get assigned Fighter Jets to Pilot. Categorized as Fixed wing, but can be Delta wing (extended for subsonic flight and landing, tucked in for supersonic flight in Interceptor mode).

Fighter Jets do mid-air combat against other aircraft, dogfights. If Bombers or Cargo birds have air-to-air weaponry, it is really only defensive.
In Top Gun, it was all about Dog-Fighting. In the F-14 Tomcat Delta wing fighter.

In Dog-Fighting, it is all about the superior performance of the bird and Pilot. The Pilot who can pull tighter Gs in a turn can prevent the enemy behind from achieving Missile-Lock on him, and also can achieve Missile-Lock on the enemy when pursuing. The Pilot with the better performance is usually the winner and lives for another fight. The second-best performance of the 2 combatants will lose, ending their flight, usually their plane, and often their life.

So the ability to pull Gs is critical. Pulling Gs drains blood from your head, making thought more difficult, but also taking away your vision. Fighter pilots maintain fitness regiments to keep their cardiovascular system adequately supporting their mission, to achieve higher Gs. Most Fighter birds in the world in the 1980s could pull more G's with the airframe uncompromised than the humans in the cockpit could withstand without Loss-of-Consciousness.

Men and women. The center of gravity for human males is in the chest, the torso. The center of gravity for human females is in the hips. This is physiology, despite feminist claims that men and wymmin are exactly the same.
For men, the brain is about a foot above the heart, and the center of blood pool. For women, the brain is also about a foot above the heart (pump), but more like 2-3 feet from the center of blood pool, which is where the heart is accustomed to pumping the majority of the blood. This is a distinct disadvantage in the skills, abilities, performance of a Fighter Pilot, for women compared to men.
In a contest where one wins and lives, and the 2nd place combatant dies. In the 1980s, guess how many Air Wings in the World had female Fighter Pilots. In the 1990s, guess how many Nations in the World had Female Fighter Pilots. So every single enemy combatant of the female Fighter Pilot would be a male, requiring less effort to achieve superior performance and defeat the female.

SJWs should petition to have combat be an equal opportunity experience, as I'm sure all Agressor Nations would comply.


Also, for every female filling a Fighter Pilot Seat, another male is not filling that Seat. If you were staffing your Combat Unit for War, would you logically select the lesser capable individuals, so that your Unit and all its assets will lose? Instead of selecting all of the most capable, the most competent combatants available?


So, is "Elite Female Fighter Pilots" a joke? Let along an entire Squadron of them?



Most civilizations expect War combatants to be adults, fully formed humans, and not children.

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 3:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I don't know the answer to the question. You're not wrong. I'm not denying the science behind this. But ...

As I was taught in English class, of all places ... 'yes but' is the same as 'no'.
Quote:

you can't deny the science behind the reasoning that people use when they choose to do these things
What science is that?
Quote:

or the science behind why folks find these things so entertaining either.
What science is that?
Quote:

I'm sure for the kids, the potential to be famous and have a lot of money is a factor, but I think most of them would do it just because it's fun. Kid's smoke because it's fun. Also, arguably, because they're not supposed to. The same with drugs.
But we're not talking about things kids choose to do on their own because it's fun. We're talking about brain damaging things ADULTS want kids (6) to do, things ADULTS pay for kids (7) to do, for their own ADULT entertainment and their own ADULT business reasons. As you state below:
Quote:

I brought up the billionaires just as an example of why these sports will never go away. It's not just the billionaires making money here. Eliminating football up through high school would negatively impact the lives of so many people all the way down to the hot dog and beer vendors.

... why people are so entertained by these things, I couldn't personally say. ... If you eliminate these sports, you also eliminate the catalyst of whatever chemical neuron-firing reward mechanism millions of people enjoy while rooting for their favorite teams or players.

As you seem to understand we come to every topic with our own lifetime of history.
Quote:

At the end of the day, I take a pretty nihilistic approach to this, as I do with most things. Sure... they're kids. But so what? Most adults suck. Kids are just future adults that are most likely going to suck. Maybe if I had a kid of my own I'd be put in the hypocritical spot of caring about an individual more than I do the collective, but I don't.
My experience is having really, really bad ADHD and all the crap that comes with it. So when I look at children, I understand that IF they COULD do better, they WOULD do better. Because there's no percentage in constantly being castigated, isolated, and punished (even beaten) for failure to conform. I feel I understand that it's also inherently difficult, stressful, and lonely when your brain just doesn't work well, because even basic functions like sensory processing can be taxing and deficient. I don't wish that on any child.

Maybe your lifetime history doesn't include that concept. Perhaps you wrote off your brother's issues early on and just never revised your response to that. And so you write brain damage off easily in others, like it's no big deal. (Even though you complain that schools don't teach kids about money, a far less severe shortcoming, imo.)

But causing lifelong brain damage in kids (8) for adult amusement and adult profit to me is an unacceptable cost to those children (9), for completely mercenary adult reasons.


As for adults, most here in the US are pretty banged-up emotionally and intellectually, if not also physically by the time they grow up. If you were to meet the adults (and perhaps even children) of other countries that do a better job caring for their people instead of using them up for profit then tossing them on the garbage heap, you might revise your opinions on them as well.

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 7:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I don't know the answer to the question. You're not wrong. I'm not denying the science behind this. But ...

As I was taught in English class, of all places ... 'yes but' is the same as 'no'.
Quote:

you can't deny the science behind the reasoning that people use when they choose to do these things
Quote:

What science is that?



I don't know what the name of it is, but there is science behind it.

You seem to come at this issue from a very biased place, considering it all to be in the name of selfish adults and God Money. I illustrated the "science" behind it in the rest of my post.

Kids (and some adults) enjoy playing sports. Even the ones that can cause brain damage. Why?

Kids and adults enjoy watching sports. The more dangerous ones arguably being more popular than the less dangerous ones. Why?

Like pretty much anything else, there is a science behind it.

Quote:

or the science behind why folks find these things so entertaining either.
Quote:

What science is that?


See my response above. Also see the previous post where I mention whatever reward giving, neuron firing pleasure mechanisms that come with rooting for your favorite team or athlete while watching your favorite sport.

I already mentioned that sports in general do nothing for me. But I'm not going to just discount the fact that I'm in the minority on this issue. (A use of "but" that doesn't mean no).

Quote:

I'm sure for the kids, the potential to be famous and have a lot of money is a factor, but I think most of them would do it just because it's fun. Kid's smoke because it's fun. Also, arguably, because they're not supposed to. The same with drugs.
Quote:

But we're not talking about things kids choose to do on their own because it's fun.


We aren't? Says who?

I lived a very sheltered life as a kid. I was a loner as well. Wrestling was a solo sport that I excelled in. After high school, I didn't have that anymore. In my early twenties, my friend started learning how to box and I started going as well. But it had been a few years since I really worked out a lot and I had zero skill at it because I was already far too old to be learning it from scratch. It wasn't fun for me because getting your ass beat down on the regular is not my particular idea of fun. I'm sure those 20 somethings that learned how to do it when they were kids had a lot of fun pounding my face in.

You're not the arbiter of what is and what is not fun. Fun is a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Quote:

We're talking about brain damaging things ADULTS want kids to do, things ADULTS pay for kids to do, for their own ADULT entertainment and their own ADULT business reasons.


I've already argued this above, but it's worth stating again that while this may be the case some times, I knew plenty of kids who loved playing football when I was a kid, and I can say the same for some kids I know today. I also know kids who did back then and did today, even though both of their parents were against it from the start.

I'm sure there are kids who are forced to play by overbearing parents, but most kids just play because they enjoy playing.

Quote:

As you state below:
Quote:

I brought up the billionaires just as an example of why these sports will never go away. It's not just the billionaires making money here. Eliminating football up through high school would negatively impact the lives of so many people all the way down to the hot dog and beer vendors.

... why people are so entertained by these things, I couldn't personally say. ... If you eliminate these sports, you also eliminate the catalyst of whatever chemical neuron-firing reward mechanism millions of people enjoy while rooting for their favorite teams or players.

As you seem to understand we come to every topic with our own lifetime of history.



Sure. That's what I'm saying.

But I don't believe that is at all what you're saying. You seem to be saying that kids don't enjoy sports and are forced into playing them by evil adults for profit. Generally speaking, neither of these things are based in reality.

Quote:

At the end of the day, I take a pretty nihilistic approach to this, as I do with most things. Sure... they're kids. But so what? Most adults suck. Kids are just future adults that are most likely going to suck. Maybe if I had a kid of my own I'd be put in the hypocritical spot of caring about an individual more than I do the collective, but I don't.
Quote:

My experience is having really, really bad ADHD and all the crap that comes with it. So when I look at children, I understand that IF they COULD do better, they WOULD do better. Because there's no percentage in constantly being castigated, isolated, and punished (even beaten) for failure to conform. I feel I understand that it's also inherently difficult, stressful, and lonely when your brain just doesn't work well, because even basic functions like sensory processing can be taxing and deficient. I don't wish that on any child.


Who would? I don't like most kids, and I don't like most adults. I don't go around wishing they get brain damage for yucks though.

Quote:

Maybe your lifetime history doesn't include that concept. Perhaps you wrote off your brother's issues early on and just never revised your response to that. And so you write brain damage off easily in others, like it's no big deal. (Even though you complain that schools don't teach kids about money, a far less severe shortcoming, imo.)


Until they can fix brain damage, arguing that they shouldn't fix stupid and ignorant is not a good retort.

Speaking of my brother, BTW, he very much wanted to play football. I don't know why, given all of his problems, but of course my mother and even the school didn't allow that to happen. Even a kid that survived a brain hemorrhage and is a one in a billion case or less wanted to play football.

Quote:

But causing lifelong brain damage in kids for adult amusement and adult profit to me is an unacceptable cost to those children, for completely mercenary adult reasons.


Fallacy.

Quote:

As for adults, most here in the US are pretty banged-up emotionally and intellectually, if not also physically by the time they grow up. If you were to meet the adults (and perhaps even children) of other countries that do a better job caring for their people instead of using them up for profit then tossing them on the garbage heap, you might revise your opinions on them as well.


I can't speak for other countries, but most of us here would be beat up emotionally, intellectually and physically when we were adults anyhow. Most of us don't get the privileges of the academic good life that you had growing up and are destined to work shitty jobs for shitty wages and live our shitty lives.

I really don't understand how playing make believe that the world is a nice place for everybody and lying to future adults for the first 18 years of their lives is constructive or helpful for the mostly bleak future that a majority of them will have lying in wait once that 18th birthday has passed them by.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, October 20, 2019 7:29 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Can you provide links to your meth sporting leagues, or Meth championships, or Meth wagering pools?
How is Meth scored? If you live, you win?

Can you provide links to your Cocaine sporting leagues, or Cocaine championships, or Cocaine betting pools? How to score - if you live that round, you win that round? Or is it the total number of hits before you die or become paralyzed?

How does that work?
How does that compare to Professional Sporting Events?



Context. Read ALL that I have said again and it should clear it up for you.

If you want to have an adult conversation after you have, then feel free to respond. Even Kiki didn't argue this point with me.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, October 21, 2019 3:53 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Rather than go through your post bit by it. I'll break it up into topics.

The ones addressed to me that are incorrect:


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
You seem to come at this issue from a very biased place

I come from a very fact-based place that uniformly finds BRAIN DAMAGE in children (10) who box, play contact football, and head soccer balls for a little as 1 semester.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Most of us don't get the privileges of the academic good life that you had growing up.

Then you haven't been reading my posts. I came from an academically deeply inferior RC grade school taught by ignorant nuns, grades 1-8.
One year of public junior high and 3 of public high school were definitely not inner-city awful, instead they were poorly-funded mediocre public suburban/rural where one year I biked to school 6 miles rt because there was no money for busses, and neither school even had advanced placement classes, or planned to have them. DIDN'T YOU GO TO PRIVATE SCHOOL? What a luxury that would have been to me!
I WORKED MY WAY THROUGH ALL BUT ONE YEAR OF COLLEGE, usually two or three part time minimum wage (or less - waitressing) jobs per semester totaling more than 40 hours a week, while going to school full time - with no parental support, no car, no furniture, no nothing to call my own (except whatever clothes I could fit in a paper shopping bag, and a few dollars), after I got kicked out of the house for something that I didn't do. And with the stress of an alcoholic mother calling up smashed every day to threaten suicide in long drunken 'conversations', saying she'd die unless I came back home and made everything 'the way it used to be'.
For MOST of my classes, after tuition, rent and food, I was too poor to afford books. So when I could - between classes and work of course - I went to the library and used their books.
I was even semi-homeless for a while, living for over a month in a university lab, and other times sleeping in friends' living rooms, because I didn't have anywhere else.
And after 6 years, I got two degrees I sacrificed having any kind of life to get.

How you can claim I'm 'privileged' is beyond me.

So now let me pointedly tell you that you need to get that chip off your shoulder about not going to college, and thinking everyone who did go MUST HAVE had more 'privilege' than you.




Now, on to the rest of your post:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
A use of "but" that doesn't mean no

Dood, "but" means "but". "YES but" means "no". Just fyi
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I don't know what the name of it is, but there is science behind it.
I illustrated the "science" behind it in the rest of my post.
Like pretty much anything else, there is a science behind it.
or the science behind why folks find these things so entertaining either.
Also see the previous post where I mention whatever reward* giving, neuron* firing* pleasure mechanisms that come with rooting for your favorite team or athlete while watching your favorite sport.

I looked through your posts and didn't find one bit of science. I DID find three buzzwords randomly thrown around, but it doesn't look like science to me.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Kid's smoke because it's fun. Also, arguably, because they're not supposed to. The same with drugs.
You're not the arbiter of what is and what is not fun. Fun is a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
most kids just play because they enjoy playing.
I think most of them would do it just because it's fun.
Kids (and some adults) enjoy playing sports. Even the ones that can cause brain damage. Why?
Kids and adults enjoy watching sports. The more dangerous ones arguably being more popular than the less dangerous ones. Why?
I knew plenty of kids who loved playing football when I was a kid, and I can say the same for some kids I know today. I also know kids who did back then and did today, even though both of their parents were against it from the start.

If kids enjoy playing Russian Roulette should we have taxpayer-funded Russian Roulette classes in schools? (11)
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
considering it all to be in the name of selfish adults and God Money.
You seem to be saying that kids... are forced into playing them by evil adults for profit.

No, you made the argument that the main driver to keep those sports is NOT for the enjoyment of the little tykes, but for the adults who profit-from and get vicarious jollies through those sports.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I brought up the billionaires just as an example of why these sports will never go away. It's not just the billionaires making money here. Eliminating football up through high school would negatively impact the lives of so many people all the way down to the hot dog and beer vendors.

... why people are so entertained by these things, I couldn't personally say. ... If you eliminate these sports, you also eliminate the catalyst of whatever chemical neuron-firing reward mechanism millions of people enjoy while rooting for their favorite teams or players.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Most adults suck. Kids are just future adults that are most likely going to suck.
Who would? I don't like most kids, and I don't like most adults. I don't go around wishing they get brain damage for yucks though.

No Jack, you claim that it's OK for OTHER adults to shrug off kids' BRAIN DAMAGE (12) so they can have their vicarious yucks (and profit!) ... is sufficient reason for schools to give kids BRAIN DAMAGE. (13)

Quote:

KIKI - But causing lifelong brain damage in kids for adult amusement and adult profit to me is an unacceptable cost to those children, for completely mercenary adult reasons.
Jack - Fallacy.

You DO realize that your imperial say-so is not an argument and certainly not convincing - right??
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I can't speak for other countries, but most of us here would be beat up emotionally, intellectually and physically when we were adults anyhow. and are destined to work shitty jobs for shitty wages and live our shitty lives.

I really don't understand how playing make believe that the world is a nice place for everybody and lying to future adults for the first 18 years of their lives is constructive or helpful for the mostly bleak future that a majority of them will have lying in wait once that 18th birthday has passed them by.

So the way to teach them how shitty life can be is to give them BRAIN DAMAGE at school? (14)

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Monday, October 21, 2019 8:41 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Yanno what, Kiki.

Because you're as closed minded on this topic as some people here on everything-Trump, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

At the end of the day, none of these sports are going anywhere.



Tough titty for the kids.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, October 21, 2019 8:45 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Yanno what though. Good luck to you in tearing the system down. I hope you succeed. Because I don't give a shit about these sports at all.

Maybe then, we'll find out about that "science" you claim I'm making up that you didn't bother looking into. Yanno, when millions of people don't get that daily or weekly hit from their football games and various other sports, maybe we'll just see more aggressive behavior in the streets to burn off all that extra energy instead.

Until then, keep on living with the blinders on, and worrying about the stupid kids.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, October 21, 2019 9:58 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
"Who are you or anybody else to decide that for them?"

I think any sport that routinely results in brain damage should be banned in elementary, middle, and high schools. After that, whatever people chose to do is fine with me.

But it seems crazy to me that people are being permanently brain damaged just so some Joe Sixpack can get his steam up on a sunday with his beer and chips and buds, and turn off the tv and forget about it till the next game. Sheesh. Talk about life being cheap. We might as well have a sport where people play Russian Roulette.



I think you are absolutely right in terms of these sports (any causing brain impairment) should be modified for anyone 18 and under. I believe that will eventually happen. I love soccer/futbol, but I cringe when I see any soccer athlete heading the ball. That ball is a lot harder than most people think. I don't know of any specific studies, but just simple observation says it can't be good, especially for a young brain and especially over time.

But after 18? 21? it's up to you.

You really don't understand sports if you think this is all, " just so some Joe Sixpack can get his steam up on a sunday with his beer and chips and buds." That's an incredibly simple sub 80 IQ view of the subject. The athletes live for this. It is their whole lives, and by now all of them know the risks in a much more profound way than any of us can.

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Monday, October 21, 2019 11:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Tackle football IN SCHOOL would not exist without A LOT of school and parental involvement. The uniforms, the stadia, the coaching staff, the buses, the cheerleaders ... the fundraisers, the ticket sales, the tax money ... SCHOOLS spend more on football than any other program.

School football isn't just kids getting together to play. It's organized, well-funded, and high up on the ADULT hierarchy which puts it high up on the CHILD hierarchy because kids have an unerring way of sussing out what gets the the most rewards and attention.

And then there is the high school to college scholarship pipeline (most of those scholarshops have nothing to do with scholasticism and everything to do with building a winning team) and the college to pro pipeline, where most will wash out after a year, but an even greater precentage will have some brain damage from having played tackle football.

Is that something we want to fund and organize?

I "get" that some kids may find playing football fun. Some kids like to be really physical, and football is an interesting combination of doing your physical best in a team that has highly specialized positions, and with some risk and aggression involved (some kids love risk and/or aggression) ... but there are other team sports like baskeball and soccer (no heading) or individual sports like gymnastics (have you ever tried it? It's very demanding) that can fill the need for team or solo activity.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

You idiots have been oppressing the entire sexual spectrum as long as you have existed. I can't wait for the day your kind is dead - WISHIMAY

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Monday, October 21, 2019 4:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
You really don't understand sports if you think this is all, " just so some Joe Sixpack can get his steam up on a sunday with his beer and chips and buds." That's an incredibly simple sub 80 IQ view of the subject. The athletes live for this. It is their whole lives, and by now all of them know the risks in a much more profound way than any of us can.

Except that's not what I posted CC. You even quoted the whole quote and then misrepresented completely what I posted. Here's the relevant part again: "But it seems crazy to me that people are being permanently brain damaged just so some Joe Sixpack ..."

FROM THE SPECTATOR POV all it is is cheap entertainment (unless you have a gambling addiction, in which case it's probably really expensive entertainment), even if participants are literally killing themselves in front of the audience.

I never said that players didn't want to be there, or that the viewers didn't want to watch, or that the sport should be banned - I just observed that the entire situation is a less meaningful equivalent of any ancient Roman arena, because it's minus the moral interest in humans meeting their fate. I pointed out that people are literally killing themselves as cheap entertainment. But adults can choose whatever they want.

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Monday, October 21, 2019 4:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Tackle football IN SCHOOL would not exist without A LOT of school and parental involvement. The uniforms, the stadia, the coaching staff, the buses, the cheerleaders ... the fundraisers, the ticket sales, the tax money ... SCHOOLS spend more on football than any other program.

School football isn't just kids getting together to play. It's organized, well-funded, and high up on the ADULT hierarchy which puts it high up on the CHILD hierarchy because kids have an unerring way of sussing out what gets the the most rewards and attention.

And then there is the high school to college scholarship pipeline (most of those scholarshops have nothing to do with scholasticism and everything to do with building a winning team) and the college to pro pipeline, where most will wash out after a year, but an even greater precentage will have some brain damage from having played tackle football.

Is that something we want to fund and organize?

I "get" that some kids may find playing football fun. Some kids like to be really physical, and football is an interesting combination of doing your physical best in a team that has highly specialized positions, and with some risk and aggression involved (some kids love risk and/or aggression) ... but there are other team sports like basketball and soccer (no heading) or individual sports like gymnastics (have you ever tried it? It's very demanding) that can fill the need for team or solo activity.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

You idiots have been oppressing the entire sexual spectrum as long as you have existed. I can't wait for the day your kind is dead - WISHIMAY

Thanks for bringing the problem of HS football together in one cogent post.

I think of "Friday Night Lights" as a kind of example as to how invested the ADULT community is in keeping something going for their kids, to fulfill their own ADULT interests.

I wonder if HS (JHS, elementary) football could be modified as a 100% tackle-free sport, or do adults really want to see the "hard hits" on their children.

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Monday, October 21, 2019 5:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Yanno what though. Good luck to you in tearing the system down.

Not what I'm talking about Jack. I'm saying specifically we shouldn't be paying SCHOOLS to give our kids BRAIN DAMAGE. (15)

I even specifically exempted anyone over 18.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I hope you succeed. Because I don't give a shit about these sports at all.

Maybe then, we'll find out about that "science" you claim I'm making up that you didn't bother looking into. Yanno, when millions of people don't get that daily or weekly hit from their football games and various other sports, maybe we'll just see more aggressive behavior in the streets to burn off all that extra energy instead.

There are FAR more assaults, rapes, shootings, vandalism etc after a 'home' game than anytime else. That's just police statistics.

https://thecrimereport.org/2014/11/27/2014-11-crime-home-football-game
s
/
Why city crime spikes during home football games

https://thecrimereport.org/2014/11/27/2014-11-crime-home-football-game
s
/
Higher Property Crime Rates Correlated With Pro Football Game Timing
The study found that days on which cities hosted home games for their respective professional football teams coincided with a nearly 3 percent increase in total crime, including a more than 4 percent increase in larceny and almost 7 percent increase in car thefts. “NFL home games are correlated with a higher incidence of crime compared to non-game days or days when the team is playing an away game in another city,” the study said.

https://aquila.usm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=js
ss

GAME DAY ALTERS CRIME PATTERN
Results confirmed sports events at each venue affected the frequency, type, and time of crime in the vicinity of both districts; crime frequency was greater on game days. Moreover, the greater effect of game days was substantially increased frequency of violent crimes, resisting arrest, and property-related crime reports.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Until then, keep on living with the blinders on, and worrying about the stupid kids.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Yeah, let's keep paying the SCHOOLS give kids BRAIN DAMAGE. (16) Is that your point Jack?



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Monday, October 21, 2019 6:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


My POINT is, there's more money there than anywhere else in the schools.

So... just like our never-ending involvement and wars in the Middle East, it ain't going anywhere. So you better learn to enjoy it or figure out how to ignore it, Ms. Nanny State.

Have fun arguing about it. I've already given this topic, which holds very little personal interest to me, far too much of my time.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, October 21, 2019 6:58 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
My POINT is, there's more money there than anywhere else in the schools.

So... just like our never-ending involvement and wars in the Middle East, it ain't going anywhere. So you better learn to enjoy it or figure out how to ignore it, Ms. Nanny State.

Have fun arguing about it. I've already given this topic, which holds very little personal interest to me, far too much of my time.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

DOOD - for the fourth (fifth? sixth? seventh? more?*) time - I'm not arguing about anything people do over the age of 18, or anything children under 18 choose to do on their own time.

I'm focused on one very specific thing: kids doing school-funded provably brain-damaging things.



Get over yourself.

*17th

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Monday, October 21, 2019 8:42 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


For those pretending that High School sports Like football where players are taught and coached to cripple their individual opponent players, and target/spear with the helmet, is the same as backyard smear, catch, flag football, no-touch football, etc.
You have a warped view. Meth sports are also not the same.



Also, are you all aware that many NFL players do not allow their sons to play football?

There was also a top player from UW-Madison who was drafted into the NFL, and then quit because of potential head injury - either only played or none.

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Monday, October 21, 2019 10:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


And my POINT regarding that is you're going to have a bunch of adults who play like kindergarteners if they don't play until they're old enough to be pros.

Nobody is going to want to see that.


All the Nanny-State-Ism in the world hasn't kept kids from smoking. There's no way in hell that it's going to end Football either.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, October 21, 2019 10:37 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Sorry if I'm being a dick again here. Rough day....

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, October 21, 2019 11:39 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
And my POINT regarding that is you're going to have a bunch of adults who play like kindergarteners if they don't play until they're old enough to be pros.

Nobody is going to want to see that.

Maybe football will develop a bunch of 'farm teams' the same way hockey and baseball have.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
All the Nanny-State-Ism in the world hasn't kept kids from smoking.

Jack, Jack, Jack ... when are you going to stop with your 'feelz' arguments and start looking things up for yourself? Forbidding underage sale of tobacco to minors has definitely REDUCED underage smoking - and that's a good thing - right? https://www.tobaccofreekids.org/assets/factsheets/0049.pdf
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
There's no way in hell that it's going to end Football either. Do Right, Be Right. :)

Jack, Jack, Jack ... and when are you going to stop with your 'strawman' arguments too? Because NO ONE said anything about 'ending' football either.

Dood, c'mon man! What's wrong witcha'? Get a grip.




Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sorry if I'm being a dick again here. Rough day....

Do Right, Be Right. :)

OK then. I figured you're better than that.

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Tuesday, October 22, 2019 12:08 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Just as many kids are vaping today as smoking yesterday.

The "deaths" are bullshit too. Don't buy shady cartridges from China that are stuffed with oil your lungs can't process and you won't die (immediately) from vaping.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, October 22, 2019 1:10 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Just as many kids are vaping today as smoking yesterday.

As best as I can find, vaping products were being sold in the US in 2009. Vaping was either not regulated or poorly regulated on a state-wide basis until 8 August 2016, when the FDA extended its regulatory power to include e-cigarettes, but "A review of regulations in 40 U.S. states found that how a law defines e-cigarettes is critical, with some definitions allowing e-cigarettes to avoid smoke-free laws, taxation, and restrictions on sales and marketing."

So, what could be considered a federal ban isn't one.

Ten years of unrestricted or poorly restricted vaping sales is a long time to develop a population of child-addicts.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
The "deaths" are bullshit too. Don't buy shady cartridges from China that are stuffed with oil your lungs can't process and you won't die (immediately) from vaping.

I agree that the figures are bullshit, but probably because it was happening all along but nobody noticed. A problem like that doesn't suddenly become a national crisis in 2 or 3 weeks. I can't imagine how one could POSSIBLY contaminate an entire nationwide stock of vaping products that quickly.

Jack, please look up a few facts before you knee-jerk react on the board, ok?

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Tuesday, October 22, 2019 3:03 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I know what I'm talking about. Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I'm wrong.

How about you do a little research before you go walking around like you know everything, huh?



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, October 22, 2019 3:16 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Did I agree with you that the whole media circus about vaping deaths was overblown?

Why, yes I did!

What's the matter with you, boy? You can't take 'yes' for an answer and have to pick a non-existent fight?

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Tuesday, October 22, 2019 9:54 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Okay. But you are arguing that lax state laws lead to a lot of children getting addicted to vaping.

I'd like you to explain how that is possible? Are you alleging that smoke shops and gas stations were selling them directly to minors?

I can't imagine a single scenario where this would occur, since every person selling them was federally regulated to card minors when selling any smoking products and risked their jobs as well as heavy personal fines and fines to the businesses they work for when caught selling to a minor, which used to happen all the time but doesn't anymore.




My point here is the kids are going to do whatever the hell that they want to do, whether you like it or not. In this case, not only have they been led to believe that vaping is a healthier alternative to smoking, but more importantly it's cheaper to vape than it is to smoke cigarettes because of the insane taxes. If cigarettes were still cheaper, they'd likely still be smoking them over vaping. Raising the price of vaping would probably just lead kids back to smoking cigarettes.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 11:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Okay. But you are arguing that lax state laws lead to a lot of children getting addicted to vaping.

I'd like you to explain how that is possible? Are you alleging that smoke shops and gas stations were selling them directly to minors?

YES.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

I can't imagine a single scenario where this would occur, since every person selling them was federally regulated to card minors when selling any smoking products and risked their jobs as well as heavy personal fines and fines to the businesses they work for when caught selling to a minor, which used to happen all the time but doesn't anymore.

The Federal government didn't restrict vaping sales to minors till August 8, 2016. "On the deeming effective date of Aug. 8, 2016, it became immediately illegal to sell e-cigarettes and other ENDS to people younger than 18. Retailers also became legally responsible for requiring age verification by photo ID for individuals under 27 to purchase a tobacco product." Until then e-cigarettes were closer in sales category to nicotine gum.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
My point here is the kids are going to do whatever the hell that they want to do, whether you like it or not. In this case, not only have they been led to believe that vaping is a healthier alternative to smoking, but more importantly it's cheaper to vape than it is to smoke cigarettes because of the insane taxes. If cigarettes were still cheaper, they'd likely still be smoking them over vaping. Raising the price of vaping would probably just lead kids back to smoking cigarettes.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

And MY point - which you've repeatedly failed to address - is that just because kids choose to give themselves BRAIN DAMAGE on their own time, doesn't mean people should be paying school taxes so the schools can give them BRAIN DAMAGE as well.

And let me reiterate that 100% of kids who do these BRAIN DAMAGING ACTIVITIES for as little as 1 semester have measurable BRAIN DAMAGE.

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:28 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Meh.... whatever.

I'm single and don't have any kids. I shouldn't even be paying school taxes.


You're never going to get your wish here. Suck it up.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And you're never going to prove me wrong.

Suck it up.

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:55 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


You haven't proven me wrong either.

So here we are.

Whatever.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 3:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
You haven't proven me wrong either.

Why, yes Jack! I have!

You posted, a lot of erroneous bullshit and strawman arguments - like I was calling for banning football, or talking about what kids do on their own time, or that you had quoted 'science' (still waiting for that 'science'), or that I'm somehow privileged ...

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
if you ban all football until kids are 18

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
If you take football and other sports you take issue with away from them


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Yanno what though. Good luck to you in tearing the system down.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
(But we're not talking about things kids choose to do on their own because it's fun.) We aren't? Says who?

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I don't know what the name of it is, but there is science behind it.
I illustrated the "science" behind it in the rest of my post.
Like pretty much anything else, there is a science behind it.
or the science behind why folks find these things so entertaining either.
Also see the previous post where I mention whatever reward* giving, neuron* firing* pleasure mechanisms that come with rooting for your favorite team or athlete while watching your favorite sport.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Maybe then, we'll find out about that "science" you claim I'm making up that you didn't bother looking into. Yanno, when millions of people don't get that daily or weekly hit from their football games and various other sports, maybe we'll just see more aggressive behavior in the streets to burn off all that extra energy instead.
Until then, keep on living with the blinders on, and worrying about the stupid kids.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Most of us don't get the privileges of the academic good life that you had growing up.

Not only did you post them, you re-posted, and reiterated, and doubled down on more than one!

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 3:47 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


And I stand by them. And I'm right.

And football isn't going anywhere.

And this argument is pointless.

yada, yada, yada

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 4:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Jack, you're as closed-minded to facts as any liberal or conservative when it disrupts your favorite narrative.

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 6:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


What narrative is that?

What horse do you think I have in this race?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 6:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, speaking of the science of human behavior: I've been watching a mini-series on PBS called 'Why We Hate', but fwiw I've only watched two (or was it three) episodes that have aired so far (which they could have easily condensed into one imo). Yeah, I know - it's on TV and it's on PBS. Still, I don't take anything at face value.

Moving on ...

They outlined the advantage of living in groups that control an area, and that is access to resources.

They outlined the difference between two chimpanzee species which (they claim) are physically indistinguishable: Pan troglodytes (regular chimps) and Pan paniscus (bonobo chimps). As they state the great geological northward arc of the Congo river separated two populations of the parent species into a more resource-poor area north of the Congo (Pan troglodytes) and a more resource-rich area south of the Congo (Pan paniscus). They claimed that, Pan troglodytes having to contend with other groups for territory / resources in a more resource-poor area, is what leads to male group on male group aggression (and a more hierarchical internal society overall - info acquired from elsewhere); while the opposite is true of bonobos, which have virtually no aggression either within or between groups (and a peaceably-maintained internal female hierarchy - info acquired from elsewhere).
(One thing that's unanswered is why bonobos live in groups at all, since an abundance of resources and capable babies - can cling within hours of birth - seem to make group-living unnecessary.)

Having established, as they seem to believe, an evolutionary reason for self-identified groups to adhere internally; but also to both contend individually and as groups with other groups, they go on to equate troglodytes' behavior with human TRIBAL behavior; but where tribes are established by lore and custom, not physical birth troop or area.

They cite one research study where adolescent boys were arbitrarily separated into 2 groups, each group was instructed on how to set up their own camp (erect large tents, set up campfires etc), and the two groups were required to compete in a series of contests to win one prize at the end; and that under those very specific conditions they started to engage in actual hostility (stealing each other's supplies, vandalizing each other's sites, etc). At the end, the researcher demolished those group identities by sabotaging their one water supply, such that all the boys had to work together to fix it.

They then go on to examine the psychology of group v individual identity and claim that humans have an evolutionarily-derived need to have a group identity (which once again they illustrate with male extreme soccer fans as prototypical and somehow representative of overall human behavior). (I also want to point out that when it comes to specific examples - eg war, soccer hooliganism, etc, they've so far focused exclusively on males as active participants.) They illustrate how the assumed group identity is always positive and justifiable even when it's at deep odds with reality (as an example they use the Israeli 'victim no more!' identity which is used to paper over Palestinian genocide); and of course the out group is everything awful. In addition they say that assuming a group identity often displaces (some of?) a individual's identity; and that 'out group' individual identities are mentally replaced with group tropes.


So far, what they seem to have established is that male group identity / hostility is established under a very particular set of circumstances, that may or may not be evolutionarily relevant.

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 6:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
What narrative is that?

What horse do you think I have in this race?

That you're the smartest person here and always right.

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 7:14 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
you're the smartest person here and always right.



Finally.

Thank you.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


See?

I told you!

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 8:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Back to the topic

(above) The show 'Why We Hate' seems to have established that under a very particular set of circumstances people (males) will form groups and engage in hostilities against each other.

This is very similar to the behavior Jane Goodall found when she went to study chimps (regular / troglodytes) in the jungle as a newbie grad student. Before then a lot of work had been done in zoos and laboratories, but nothing had looked at their behavior in a natural setting. iirc the story she told, for the first year or two, she heard chimps all around her in the jungle, but never got sight of them. In order to see them, she decided to put a pile of fruit in the clearing near her camp, which worked to bring the chimps into view. And she spend the next year or so recording all sorts of aggressive / dominant / submissive behaviors.

And then it occurred to her that she was seeing NONE of the affiliative, gentle, nurturing, friendly, or playful behaviors that people saw elsewhere, like in zoos. She realized that the kind of chimp society she was witnessing could not possibly raise generations of young, it was far too violent and took away far too many resources from females and young to be sustainable 100% of the time (ie it couldn't be the basic pattern of group behavior). And she understood that having a really high-value bounty in one easily-dominated spot was actually triggering all the aggressive / dominant / submissive behaviors she'd been so carefully studying, describing, categorizing, recording, and quantifying. And she further realized that in nature, in the jungle (being non-seasonal), fruit doesn't ripen all at once on each kind of tree. It ripens here and there, fruit to fruit, tree to tree, species to species, scattered around, all during the year.

So she scattered the fruit around instead of putting it in a pile, threw out all her notes, and started fresh. And what she saw was as if she was witnessing a different species.

So in this instance, a particular set of circumstances created a particular set of interactions.

When I think of the experiment with the 2 groups of boys in a camp, I mentally tick off how many things have to be in place to cause (US) kids to behave like that.

And it runs parallel to the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison experiment. A very particular set of circumstances have to be in place to get those results.

So, now we know what circumstances triggers what kinds of behaviors in "people". (all? males? US-raised?)

So far, my first objection to the show, which I've mentioned before, is that they seem to be taking a very LIMITED subset of people - western / males / small fraction with extreme behavior / highly specific (and artificial?) circumstances - and extending their thinking to mean "HUMAN" nature.

Is it a human potential? Well, yes, it is. Just like the super-aggressive male chimps dominating the fruit pile in Goodall's inadvertent experiment was a chimp potential. But it may not be 'natural'.

(Just a personal point of interest for me - looking at Goodall's initial inadvertent fruit-pile experiment - it seems as if the draw to stay in a group no matter how pathological and dangerous it became was extremely strong. She didn't recount any chimps who appeared to say 'well, fuck this shit, I can just go to that tree over there and get fruit of my own'. Either they didn't attempt it or the male(s) had become super-dominant in that circumstance and were herding breakaways back to the troop.)

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Wednesday, October 23, 2019 9:12 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I wonder if the writers of these articles are aware that there is a fairly popular female MMA.

https://www.tapology.com/rankings/33-current-best-pound-for-pound-fema
le-mma-fighters


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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