A creepy idea by canadianjon

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

A creepy idea

POSTED BY: CANADIANJON
UPDATED: Monday, January 6, 2003 19:25
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VIEWED: 8360
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Tuesday, December 24, 2002 2:08 PM

From the FOX board...

I just read the thread 'mal's weaknesses'.
They discuss that Mal's personality was kind of 'shattered' into different 'characters' representing different things.

Book = his faith, belief in god
Inara = his sexuality, his dignity
Kaylee = playfulness, love for life
River = his struggle for sanity
Simon = his rationality, desire to help
Wash = his humor
Zoe = his military background, loyalty
Jayne = his aggression, violence
Serenity = freedom (the most important thing)

I think it was Betsyslu who dropped this idea for an ultimate plot twist...

The scene in the pilot at the battle of serenity where Mal looks up stunned, and the guy next to him gets gunned down, then we see a closeup of Mal's face, violin music playing.

WHAT IF he died there, and the whole series flashed before his eyes in a few minutes before he died. It never explained how he managed to escape, it just cut to six years later. His ship and crew could be manifestations from his mind.

The idea of serenity and the crew never existing
is creepifying to say the least.

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Tuesday, December 24, 2002 3:03 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.

That's almost like something out of Buffy.

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Tuesday, December 24, 2002 4:11 PM

CARDIE

Of course, "Out of Gas" shows us how he got the ship and gathered the crew, but that's noticeably from Mal's almost-dying perspective as well.

My interpretation of how he "escaped" the Battle of Serenity was that he was commanded to lay down his arms and did. And the Independents negotiated peace soon thereafter. Serenity was the last battle of the war.

Cardie

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Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:29 PM

TWIRLIP

You know, about a year ago my girlfriend rented the first season of "Sex and the City" on DVD and showed them to me. Not really my cup of tea, but I had to admit that they were entertaining. "Plus which," I told her afterward, "I really kinda like the inner conceit."

"The wha?" she said.

"The inner conceit. You know, how the three friends all symbolize a different fundamental aspect of the main character's unconscious personality."

"The wha?" she said again.

So we talked about that for a while. I mean, it seemed blindingly obvious to me at the time. Each of the three friends embodies a different (sublimated) aspect of the main character's personality.

The mousy redhead with the boyish figure is her asexual aspect. If I remember right one of the episodes we watched involved that character's being mistaken for a lesbian, which obviously symbolized the main character's inner desire to divorce herself from her gender identity.

The voluptous blonde is just the opposite of the redhead: she's the sexual aspect. She's the main character's id, if you'll pardon the Freudism.

The timid brunette is the main character's nuturing aspect. She's the conscience. She always concerns herself with what others will think, and never acts impulsively, not because of a sense of restraint, but simply because that's not part of her nature.

We talked about this for hours.

Weeks later she told me that she'd mentioned it to some of her girlfriends, all of whom watch the show regularly. They concluded that my impressions had some validity, but that they probably weren't intended, and tended to break down if examined too closely.

I'd love to see the same sort of thing done with Firefly. I think the basic breakdown of the aspects is right on, whether it was put there intentionally or not. Maybe there's a sort of natural instinct that comes into play when building an ensemble cast for a movie or TV show: the creator wants a well-rounded cast with plenty of strong personalities and the potential for conflict, so that naturally results in ensembles that resemble aspects of a single person's personality. Maybe.

I don't think I like the idea that it's all a dying flashback, though. I prefer the thought that Mal's sitting in an Alliance prison daydreaming the whole thing. But that's just me: I'm with the melancholy.

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 12:32 AM

ARCPLAYER

The whole dying flashback bit was the Plot twist for "The Lathe of Heaven by Ursula K. Leguin". I don't think we have to worry about Mutant Enemy ripping off a story that blatantly.

Did ME take their name from the song "And you and I" from the album "Close to the Edge", by Yes?

Sad creature nailed upon the corridor of time. Insane preacher reminds us of the rhyme.
There'll be no mutant enemy we shall certify.
For political ends our sad remains must die.

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 2:59 AM

THATGIRLISABEL

I myself was frowning at the tv as Mal just stood there, and as if I didn't know that he was going to be with us for a good long while (as with Kaylee getting shot-- I know, I'm a dumbass), was saying, "Ok, Mal, you'll be wanting to duck sometime soon, as I hear it gunshot wounds can be just this side of fatal..." Yes, it's creepifying. And sad. I would cry.

But it's not beyond Joss. He'd do it, being the sadistic mofo that he is. And we love him for it.

But I'd still cry.

---
Them's fightin' words

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 9:39 AM

TWIRLIP

Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGirlIsabel:
But it's not beyond Joss. He'd do it, being the sadistic mofo that he is.

One of my favorite authors is a guy named Niven. He writes science fiction of the just-this-side-of-silly vein. Over the years, he's constructed a whole universe of interconnected stories. Pretty complex, really.

A few years ago he wrote a story outline for a novel that he never wrote. He'd reached a point in his career where he wasn't interested in writing any more of those stories, but he didn't want to just completely abandon the universe he'd created, either. The novel was to be entitled "Down in Flames," and it would serve to utterly destroy his entire milieu. The story outline has since made it onto the net; you can find it pretty easily with Google. It's a fun read.

I wouldn't hold it against Joss one bit if he were to decide to do that very thing with "Firefly." If it reaches the point where the property just isn't commercially viable, I wouldn't mind at all if he scraped together enough cash to produce one final episode, or even vignette, that demolishes the whole premise of the story.

In fact, I have a sneaky suspicion that they're doing something rather like that with this season of "Buffy." There have been rumors that the events of this season sound suspiciously like the back-story behind Joss's future-set comic "Fray." I think it'd be great if he and the other writers were planning to find a way to destroy the whole vampires/slayer premise.

I mean, it's one thing to kill your series protagonist. Joss has both been there and done that, twice. But it's something entirely else to introduce an event into your continuity that makes future stories literally impossible.

What a way to go.

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 10:39 AM

CANADIANJON

I thought her idea was neat. It's been done
before many times, just never with a show I
cared about so much (I never thought I'd be
on a message board).

Star Trek TNG and DS9 had episodes that the
main character believed their star trek
universe never existed, Riker, Picard, Sisko.
Buffy also had an episode with her as a crazy girl dreaming up her sunnydale world. These
were pretty cool too, but it always ended up
that their universe WAS real. It's much
wierder to think about the characters
actually never existing.

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:44 AM

JOAN

Merry Christmas. ...my first post anywhere... Are any of you old enough to remember the final episode of St. Elsewhere? Or, how about the last episode of the second Bob Newhart show?

Joan

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:54 AM

ALLRONIX

The whole "Different aspects" bit brought to mind a DS9 episode, "Distant Voices."

Whole concept - the station doctor just celebrated his 30th birthdays, and was contemplating the steady march of time, mortality, and all that jazz.

The some telepathic alien that was out to steal some meds nailed him.

Doctor wakes up to find the station is an awful mess...life support's failing, place is shot up. The more he tours, the more he realizes that the station is his mind, and that his friends are archetypes of his own personality facets. Worse, he's also aging rapidly, and the alien that attacked him is running loose (the telepathic attack is causing more damage to his brain).

Hmm...now if someone pulled that with Mal...

Co-founder of the Evil Writing Crew - causing hell, one hero at a time!

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 2:58 PM

CARDIE

Quote:
Originally posted by Joan:
Merry Christmas. ...my first post anywhere... Are any of you old enough to remember the final episode of St. Elsewhere? Or, how about the last episode of the second Bob Newhart show?

Joan

Hi, Joan! I'm quite old enough to remember both. When "St. Elsewhere" did it, I don't think that had ever been done for a whole series' universe. It certainly knocked me for a loop! And having Newhart still on his previous series was great too.

Cardie

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 4:32 PM

DELVO

Quote:
a DS9 episode, "Distant Voices"... he realizes that the station is his mind, and that his friends are archetypes of his own personality facets.

I love the scene where that is shown to be the case, when the station's communication system is finally partially repaired so they can hear transmissions from outside sources... and they hear the characters (themselves) standing near the Bashir's real body talking about his condition. That was chilling.

Anyway, you can pretty much take this idea and apply it to ANY story that seems to have one central character who's often with the same few others whose personalities are distinct from each other's. It doesn't have to be designed that way, the interpretation's just available to those viewers who see it that way. King Aragorn in Lord of the Rings, for example. Or that Braveheart character, or John Crichton on Farscape, or Benson from the sitcom Benson, or the Fox and Sheen characters on Spin City, or John Patterson the bridge engineer in The Ghost And The Darkness, or Gene Krantz from Apollo 13... and those last two are historical...

The reasons why these archetypal ideas exist is because they can be applied in so many different cases. Personally, I prefer the Japanese model of Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void characters, because you can do them even when there's no central character, as my sensei showed by applying it to the original Star Wars trilogy.

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 4:43 PM

HOTFORKAYLEE

Quote:
Originally posted by Joan:
Merry Christmas. ...my first post anywhere... Are any of you old enough to remember the final episode of St. Elsewhere? Or, how about the last episode of the second Bob Newhart show?

Joan

I remember watching the run of the second Newhart show. As much as I liked the characters and everthing, I will admit the ending was very enjoyable.

This opens up a whole new set of questions like what would have happened to everyone if Mal hadn't had a chance to come into their lifes? How would Jayne and Kaylee's lifes and everyone else turn out on their own?

By the way, this is the first message baord I've ever posted on also. This show seems to really bring people out wanting to talk about it. Let's save it.

Quote:
"We've spent too much time reacting when we should have been acting. Let's take the offensive for a change. Fire up the shuttle, Commander, we've got work to do."

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 5:50 PM

THATGIRLISABEL

I wouldn't put it post him to do it. I sure as hell wouldn't be happy about it, but if it's the way to go, then it's the way to go.

I've also figured they were gonna do something like that with Buffy... but the thing is, in my mind ay least, it's kind of like discounting the entire storyline. Pretty much saying, "None of this happened, so it doesn't matter." Surely there are folks out there who disagree, so I'll just stand idly by while the flames give me a good roasting.

My reaction would mostlikele be something akin to staring blankly at the screen, muttering to myself, "Um... ok. Wait. What the hell was that?!" Then as the realization sinks in, I'd be forced to wonder what happened to everyone else in the storyline. So did Jayne, Kaylee, Inara and everyone else actually exist? Or were they just Mal's little figmentations? If they did exist, how the hell does he know they exist, and what are they doing? Is Jayne still working for a measly 7%, sharing a bunk "with that one?" Is Kaylee still working for her daddy, getting her freak on in engine rooms while she's on a break? And what about Simon and River?

To be honest, it would probably be way too much for my brain to handle. I'd be confused for a good long while, sad as that may seem. I'd prefer if they did otherwise, if only to preserve my diminishing brain cells. Keep flyin' don't have much merit if no one ever said it.

---
Them's fightin' words

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 6:21 AM

TYLOR

Hmm... has anyone here ever read (or seen the old Twilight Zone) "An Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge?"

It's about a rebel spy during the civil war (who is about to be hanged), the story shows him escaping, getting home, some other stuff...

... and ends with his neck being broken by the rope.

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 9:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yes, I saw that.

And what about the whole series of episodes in "Dallas" where the main character (JR Ewing) gets into deeper and deeper trouble, and then gets killed "... and then he woke up".

Oldest trick in the book!

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 3:56 PM

THATGIRLISABEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Tylor:
Hmm... has anyone here ever read (or seen the old Twilight Zone) "An Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge?"

It's about a rebel spy during the civil war (who is about to be hanged), the story shows him escaping, getting home, some other stuff...

... and ends with his neck being broken by the rope.

Yeah saw that. Strangely enough, it was showed to us several times in Jr. High and High School English classes.

Hell I didn't mind.

---
Them's fightin' words

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 5:17 PM

JOHNNYREB

An Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge was written by Ambrose Bierce, or Bitter Bierce as critics called him. He is known for his ghost stories, and he is known even more for his Civil War narratives--sometimes they crossed over like AOAOCB. He fought for the North at the battle of Shiloh in 1862 and several other battles He survived the Civil War only to run off to Mexico and never be seen again. The last thing he ever wrote was a letter to his surviving son. He writes, "Ah, to be a gringo in Mexico! That is euthanasia!" He was kinda like a 19th century Jimmy Buffet. Geez, one might think I was an English major, or a Civil War enthusiast, or a parrot head! Oh, wait...

Viva Firefly!

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 7:48 PM

BIRTHSISTER

Every see Jacob's Ladder? Film came out about 12 years ago about a Vietnam vet experiencing flashbacks and hideous hallucinations...but did he ever leave vietname? If you haven't watched it, go to Blockbuster..it's worth the rental.

Peace,
birthsister
still a scaper at heart

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 8:29 PM

UFO

Quote:
Originally posted by canadianjon:
The idea of serenity and the crew never existing
is creepifying to say the least.

Been done many times. An entire season of Dallas never happened. The entire series St. Elsewhere was a daydream. Etc.

Interesting idea tho.

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 9:24 PM

THATGIRLISABEL

Jacob's Ladder was a good movie; saw it on SciFi awhile back. Scared the hell outta me.

---
Them's fightin' words

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 9:55 PM

JASONZZZ

Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGirlIsabel:
Jacob's Ladder was a good movie; saw it on SciFi awhile back. Scared the hell outta me.

---
Them's fightin' words

Ouch, shouldn't watch JL with a 5 yr old
kid. It confused the heck out of my little
cousin and around 3 weeks of sleepless nights.

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Friday, December 27, 2002 1:50 AM

THATGIRLISABEL

I had a couple sleepless nights, too. I was traumatized there for awhile.

---
Them's fightin' words

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Friday, December 27, 2002 9:04 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

Yeah, not a good idea to show scary stuff to kids. My dad took me to see Poltergeist when I was 6. I was afraid of clowns for years after (and truth be told, I still think most of them are creepy).

______________
WASH: Little River just gets more colorful by the moment. What'll she do next?
ZOE: Either blow us all up or rub soup in her hair. It's a toss-up.
WASH: I hope she does the soup thing. It's always a hoot, and we don't all die from it.

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Sunday, December 29, 2002 12:26 AM

THATGIRLISABEL

I've been scared of clowns for years. Could have something to do with the movie "IT." About a year ago I was eating pizza with my fiance in a restaurant, and some little kid's having a birthday party in another area. Well I get up to get more food, and bump into someone. I look up and start to apologize, and to my horror I see that it'a a clown, all rainbow hair and polka-dot clothes. Needless to say I went, "BAHHHHHH!" or something to that effect, and recoiled to my fiance's side. He laughed at me but afterwards I felt pretty bad, cause the clown wasn't laughing. Had one of those painted-on sad faces.

What was so funny is that after seeing the movie, I refused to even say the word "it" for a long damn time. Got away with it for awhile.

---
Them's fightin' words

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Sunday, December 29, 2002 6:06 PM

SENSOU

Quote:
Originally posted by Tylor:
Hmm... has anyone here ever read (or seen the old Twilight Zone) "An Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge?"

It's about a rebel spy during the civil war (who is about to be hanged), the story shows him escaping, getting home, some other stuff...

... and ends with his neck being broken by the rope.

Yeah, that was a good one.

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell

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Monday, January 6, 2003 1:16 AM

XENOBOB

Anyone here ever seen the movie Brazil?
Great movie, absolutely hilarious too.

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Monday, January 6, 2003 6:58 PM

EVANS

Quote:
Originally posted by xenobob:
Anyone here ever seen the movie Brazil?
Great movie, absolutely hilarious too.

Saw it, loved it; right up there with Twelve Monkeys.

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL
"None of it means a damn thing." Mal, in OBJECTS IN SPACE

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Monday, January 6, 2003 7:25 PM

LORA

Thinking about the original post in this thread, the parallels between parts of Mal's character and the others are interesting and I would be heartbroken to have it all end with one of those "you have but slumbered here while these visions did appear" endings (from A Midsummer Night's Dream). Creepifying? No, heart-breaking. I would rather not see one more episode than that, because that would deny me any daydreams that had hope.

I want Serenity to keep flying, if only in the folks who write and read fanfiction.

I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me.

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