Thoughts concerning River's power and its nature by Hawk

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Thoughts concerning River's power and its nature

POSTED BY: HAWK
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 16:08
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Saturday, November 6, 2004 12:14 PM

Now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here but I think we'd all agree that there's the remotest shadow of a semi-possibility that young Miss Tam is... gifted.

The seemingly obvious answer is that she's psychic, and all that that word entails. This is something we all seem to take as a given and something even the crew eventually expressed concerns about.

Now, the semi-problem (it doesn't bother me but it'd be nice if it were otherwise) I have does not concern the story. My concerns are that the concept is perhaps incongruous with the show's more realist approach (though I privately specualte on how the BDH would react to some of the more fantastic staples of sci-fi), and that perhaps its a conclusion lacking in imagination.

My pal, fresh from his FF conversion (yay 4 me) expressed these concerns first and I saw his point. He put forward the idea that perhaps hers is a subtler gift; that of hyper-natural intuition. He was a bit vague about this but I've kind of developed the idea:

(I'm reaching with these but I've seen a lot of reachers and this is my first time. I'm allowed one or two surely?

)

River picks up the infamous "Objects" monologues by, perhaps, monitoring body language and facial expressions, on the grounds that these private thoughts are very subtly influencing their physical actions. This is how she "reads minds".

I've heard the Sernity trailer shows her "going Jet Li" on some reavers as one person put it. Perhaps she has mastered breathing patterns etc. that allow for a reassignment of blood to muscles of her choice for maximum physical efficiency.

The "no power in the 'verse" scene: Perhaps she can enhance her senses by similar means to those above, or perhaps she can reduce all white noise to seek out the beating of the men's hearts.

Please discuss.

Although this is my longest post thus far on this board and possibly my first topic so I can see the humour potential of leaving me on my lonesome.

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Saturday, November 6, 2004 1:54 PM

ZOID

Hawk:

Crickets singing soft,
Wind blowing through the tall trees,
Eternity waits...

(NB: And so do you.)

Just a little haiku to while away your biding, and to let you know that you are not alone.

Unfortunately for you, your only companion at this point is an utter a$$hole. But don't worry, it should get better soon. Purplebelly should get here any minute now...

Expectantly,

zoid

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Saturday, November 6, 2004 5:56 PM

JUMPY

I understand what your saying.

It may support your theory to know that in Objects In Space, while discussing the nature of River's "gift". I believe its Zoe that puts forward the word asassin.

Maybe as you said her bodily and mental functions have been enhanced to such an awsome level, but perhaps not quite to outright psychic.

Its certainly a possibility.

__________________________
There's no show I'd rather see, than the one with Serenity.
You can't take the sky from me...

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Saturday, November 6, 2004 6:48 PM

EMBERS

in Joss' commentary to OiS I thought he kind of addressed this issue...
he wasn't sure just how far into sci-fi he was willing to go
(because most sci-fi shows get pretty far into the fantasical)
and he had decided that pyschic was it...
by which I thought he meant that River truly was pyschic
and when he showed her 'reading' someone's thoughts she was actually hearing what we heard,

but of course Joss will be reintroducing all the characters in 'Serenity', and we'll learn a lot more about River's ability then.

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Saturday, November 6, 2004 7:07 PM

MRGOSH

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
My concerns are that the concept is perhaps incongruous with the show's more realist approach (though I privately specualte on how the BDH would react to some of the more fantastic staples of sci-fi), and that perhaps its a conclusion lacking in imagination.

This also bothered me a little at first, but then I just thought about all the other things that bothered me in Buffy and Angel, and how Joss and co. were able to pull them off in a way that always satisfied me, and I stopped worrying. One of the strengths of Buffy and Angel, I've always thought, was how they could take a truely preposterous plot twist (say the existence of Dawn) and commit to it so completely that it works and becomes totally sweet.

I think River probably is just straight up psychic, but there was some stuff in Ariel that suggest there might be a more scientific reason for it. Either way, I have faith that however they choose to develope/explain her character, it will be really awsome!

I'm dancin' like a monkey!

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Saturday, November 6, 2004 10:10 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Purplebelly should get here any minute now...

Do I detect Old Timers' ennui? Me too, but let the kids have their day ...

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Sunday, November 7, 2004 1:36 AM

ZOID

PurpleBelly wrote:

Quote:
Do I detect Old Timers' ennui? Me too, but let the kids have their day

P'Belly:

No, I'm not particularly bored. Just trying to keep the joint from getting too serious about itself ('Letting the kids raise themselves', to follow your analogy). In the aftermath of this past and the preceding weeks, things have gotten somewhat morose around here. Recognizing my 'betters' at the game of sardonic commentary, I've been trying to poke a stick in the hedgerow in which you've been hiding, in several threads on General Discussions.

I know many are deeply wounded by world events and the portents they bear. But, what can one person do, except keep things in their proper comedic perspective? How are we going to do that if bright, witty and considerably less blunt people than myself withdraw into their hidey holes? The healing must begin sooner rather than later; we've all got work to do. I say, "Let's dust ourselves off and get on with it."

I consider this board my home (as I've stated before). What we do here may not affect much of anything in the big picture. But, I feel it's important to 'Think Globally, Act Locally'. Keeping this community (in)sane and productive fits that calling.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Young people are cut down in the prime of their lives for considerably less justification than the young man from Sawlsbree (phonetically, for us Yanks) Plains had. The best way to mourn him and his comrades is to soldier on; I know, I was a soldier.

P.P.S.
Bush or Kerry: Unless you're in the top 1% of personal wealth, you had no say in who represented which party, which Big Corporation gets the contracts afterward, nor who won the election. That's not just a slap-in-the-face wakeup call, it's the truth. Wanna make a difference? Get involved with your local school system. Help educate children and provide aid to the professionals who do. Not because "the children are our Future", but because Life goes along a lot smoother for those who can properly use their minds. Isn't that the best gift anyone can give another?

_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 165 days, 17 hours, 46 minutes, and 0 seconds left until The BDM!

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Sunday, November 7, 2004 12:50 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

Now, the semi-problem (it doesn't bother me but it'd be nice if it were otherwise) I have does not concern the story. My concerns are that the concept is perhaps incongruous with the show's more realist approach (though I privately specualte on how the BDH would react to some of the more fantastic staples of sci-fi), and that perhaps its a conclusion lacking in imagination.

Dear, we live in a space ship

To date, we've seen River demonstrate clear psychic abilities, empathic abilities and also a heck of a lot of pre-cognitive abilities ("fire").

The scene in War Stories is perhaps the one least linked to her abilities, but rather to her gifted mind - except that whatever they did to her manages her to ignore the people, and what she is doing, and "do the math".

River isn't the only one with heightened abilities - Inara and YoSaffBridge show it as well - at the very least Companions have this ability to read people's body language to the extent you suggest becomes almost telepathic, and also influence people.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, November 7, 2004 1:50 PM

WESLEYWYNDHAM

Quote:

To date, we've seen River demonstrate clear psychic abilities, empathic abilities and also a heck of a lot of pre-cognitive abilities ("fire").

Actually, I'm not so sure we have. It looked to me like she had much greater sensory perception (maybe she heard/smelled something that indicated a fire was coming). And she has the ability to read someone's body language. All of which were probably enhanced by whatever the Blue Hand gang did to her. But up until Objects in Space I don't believe there was any event that could *only* be explained by pyschic ability.

I'll go back and listen to the commentary for Objects in Space again, but I would feel a bit cheated if Joss started down the "oh, she's psychic, she's a pre-cog" path, as it would give an easy get-out for any plot situation where the writers couldn't think of anything better. E.g, "oh yeah, we knew these bad guys would do that because River had a 'vision'." Bleh.

If Joss kept it to the minimum - ie., River could pick up on strong thoughts/emotions from people physically close to her, then I think that would work, and it would certainly add some extra spice into the stories.

I think that's what she's supposed to be doing at the start of OiS - she's picking up on the thoughts that are sitting at the front of each characters minds as she passes them by. Guilty secrets, longings for things that might have been, memories of past deeds or misdeeds...

And as far as the purpose goes, I suspect she's been partly conditioned by the Blue Hands for covert infiltration/assasination. Her weapons skills in War Stories and her ability to formulate a strategy and execute a complex plan in OiS (to get Jubal off the ship without hurting anyone) when she's normally walking around in a half-dreamy state suggest some conditioning that kicks in when needed. Of course, she was gifted to start with, so that all helps...

David.

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Sunday, November 7, 2004 2:06 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
River isn't the only one with heightened abilities - Inara and YoSaffBridge show it as well - at the very least Companions have this ability to read people's body language to the extent you suggest becomes almost telepathic, and also influence people.

"I threw up on your bed"

I find the entire crew, with the possible exception of Jayne, to be more intuitive than the average. Mal is a very skilled "reader of people." It takes someone highly skilled to mislead him. In objects in space, when he should perhaps find River more dangerous than ever, he clearly accepts her and embraces her because he "knows" she's a good egg.

As to River's psychic abilities being unrealistic, I've seen this one discussed fifty different ways to Sunday and I would just like to say at this late date that I have personally witnessed and/or performed the sorts of psychic feats this girl performs. Not as often, mind you, not in every last episode of my life, but from time to time and repeatedly. I'm not talking about the superhero stuff from War Stories, but the hearing other's thoughts, telepathic communication with mutes, precognition and empathy. It's really, really not that big a deal. Go visit some indian reservations.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, November 8, 2004 12:54 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by wesleywyndham:
But up until Objects in Space I don't believe there was any event that could *only* be explained by pyschic ability.

Not sure that the meeting with Badger scans here - it wasn't just a girl putting on an accent that spooked him; you could see she genuinely "knew" thinsg about him.

Then in "Safe", she knew not just things about the girl, but also the village elder.

Quote:

I'll go back and listen to the commentary for Objects in Space again, but I would feel a bit cheated if Joss started down the "oh, she's psychic, she's a pre-cog" path, as it would give an easy get-out for any plot situation where the writers couldn't think of anything better. E.g, "oh yeah, we knew these bad guys would do that because River had a 'vision'." Bleh.

I agree, if they took the easy route - but River's powers come at a price. Look at the way it seems to work - she's at her most powerful when she's at her most unstable.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 9:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Same response as in (extra) thrilling heroics- I would be disappointed if River was "psychic". So far, her abilites have real-world explanations- even in OiS where she is deconstructing Jubals' personality, she has obviously gone over the photos and notes in his ship and has been able deduce the salient parts of his pathology. The "mind reading" could be a very sensitive rendition of body language. The explanation is that by short-circuiting the amygdala ALL of the input goes diretly to the cortex (hte computing part) w/o any "filtration".

If Joss ever reads this--- JOSS- CAN YOU HEAR ME?_ the superpoer type hero seems a little far afield from his original inspiration, which was the Civil War ex-soldiers.

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 9:23 AM

PURPLEBELLY

I really don't want to bore most people yet again with a reconstruction of Purplebelly's 'Verse, but I do hope someone will run with the idea that River can read other peoples' repressed emotions and the associated thoughts. It works for me ... the narrative device that is, not the surgery.

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 9:41 AM

SERENE

In the Objects In Space commentary, Joss repeatedly states that River is psychic and Early is simply highly intuitive. He also implies that the thoughts she was picking up from the other crew members were both past and future events.

While she is "psychic", based on Joss' philosophy and his writing ability, I doubt it will be handled in the usual "easy plot device way". In fact, I'd expect there to be a "scientific" explanation for what she can do, and we've already seen the limitations in her ability to communicate (and perhaps even understand) her abilities.

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 9:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Depending on how it's handled, it could be a major diappointment or it could be OK. The problem that I have with super heroes is that it makes the story less relevant to mere mortals.

The other thing is that in order to have a credible (balanced) story the villains must be of equal caliber - equally complex, equally gifted, equally believable. That was one of the really really stupid things about Waterworld- the "good guy" is relatively believable, the "bad guys" were so stupid and cartoonish they would have never survived for more than a decade. I hope the "bad guys" in the movie are more than just prop monsters (so to speak).

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 10:45 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I hope the "bad guys" in the movie are more than just prop monsters (so to speak).

Ejiofor is the most talented actor in the cast, so the outlook is fine.

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 12:05 PM

HAWK

Precognition really annoys me as a concept.

The feeling that everything is "on rails" if you like is a little boring, and yes; destiny, fate, they're classic deus ex machinas in speculative fiction. Why waste time coming up with a valid explanation when it was meant to be?

It also irks on a personal level; some may say it disturbing to imagine feelings of control taken away from you and this is my own highly complex psychological whoosibobs coming out into the open. Probably true, but also I just don't put much stock in it.

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 12:44 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Serene:
In fact, I'd expect there to be a "scientific" explanation for what she can do ...

The quasi-medical hook is the surgery to River's amygdala. River is purportedly unable to repress her emotions: the extension to this is that she is able to read the repressed emotions of others and at a distance. The apparently forward readings could be earlier instances of an emotion expressed later.
Only Purplebelly believes this

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 12:52 PM

SERENE

What gives me hope is that the classic use (abuse?) of fate in fiction runs so thoroughly against how Joss seems to view the world. I'm hoping he'll explore what precognition could mean in a world in which there isn't a grand plan, there isn't fate.

That seems ripe for exploration and I'd be curious to see the results. Or he may just completely screw it all up, but I'd wager it would still be amusing and fun to watch.

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Tuesday, November 9, 2004 4:08 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
I really don't want to bore most people yet again with a reconstruction of Purplebelly's 'Verse, but I do hope someone will run with the idea that River can read other peoples' repressed emotions and the associated thoughts. It works for me ... the narrative device that is, not the surgery.

Much as nobody seems interested in talking about psychic awareness like it actually happens, I'll do what I can with this. It really seems so much more interesting and fruitful to try to understand the actual phenomenon than to suss out what Joss's make-believe rules are for a make-believe superpower that he made up.

Yes, Purplebelly, repressed emotions are right on the money in terms of the actual experience of myself and other sensatives. That stuff's the first thing that hits us when we walk in a room, particularly if it's as powerfully supressed as the feelings that come up in OiS. The repressed emotions of parents often show up in their children. I've worked with many parents who repress all their own rage to the point where they truly don't think it exists and can't understand why one of their children has such a violent temper. Emotion has to go somewhere.

As to the pre-cog stuff that Hawk objects to: try not to think in such black and white terms, it's not that either the future is utterly unknowable or it's all been written before the dawn of time. Time has a flow, events, personalities tend to flow in a certain direction. Think of precognition as the perception of temperal cliches, if you will. If someone has been greatly abused by their parents or past lovers, they carry it in their faces or in the way they walk or in the way they breath and if you're sensative enough to notice, you can pick out the patern (as can future abusive partners, though not at all consciously--happens all the time). The abuse of a little girl by her father is very extreme and has a very distinctive "signature."

Sometimes people feel the pain of someone else as if it were happening to them. Some of us feel this kind of empathy on a very regular basis, to the point where we get extensive information about a person's emotional history.

Nothing supernatural here, just natural in ways that a lot of people can't seem to recognize. Does that seem right to you?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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