Solar System Vs. Galaxy by MadJack

If they were still inside our solar system do you think they'd refer to 'Earth That Was' with such mythic tones?

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Monday, February 23, 2004 3:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Down to brass tacks, I consider Firefly Science Fiction, not fantasy. Placing scores of habitable worlds in a single solar system is fantasy. Therefore, we must assume multiple systems, which implies some kind of FTL, though not necessarily something flashy and obvious.*
(stuff cut)

That's a rather definitive statement considering the lack of evidence. Having read numerous posts on this subject I am far from convinced that a single system with that many worlds is absolutely impossible (as opposed to being very improbable). To dismiss the idea as fantasy is a little premature. For such a system to work it may require a highly advanced level of science...but maybe no more advanced then one requires to have FTL.

Hans

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Monday, February 23, 2004 3:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Anyway, to the point. I was looking at the FireflyWiki site yesterday and apparently at some point in the show they mention the 'Georgia system'. That would undoubtedly point towards multiple systems and therefore (sadly, IMO) FTL.

Sorry, but that could easily mean a "planetary system" (a term I think they use in one of the episodes, but I don't have the reference on hand). In fact, the reason I'm 99% sure the show does take place in a single system is the language used in the show to describe the locations they visit. There's dozens of references to moons and planets, but not a single one to a star system, or a sun, or a solar system, something you'd think they'd mention if they were travelling over interstellar distances.

Note this very interesting piece of dialogue from "Serenity":

Dobson
"You're carrying a fugitive across
interplanetary borders..."

Interplanetary, not interstellar. By itself this is not definitive, but when piled up with all the other evidence it makes a strong case for the one system theory.

Hans

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Monday, February 23, 2004 3:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Lol, am I the only one campaigning for single system, no FTL?

Hardly. To me, the evidence in favour of a single system is overwhelming. I won't go over all of it again (as it's been posted on this thread and others before) but these are the key things that nail it down for me.

Distance

Every time a distance is given on the show, it's given in thousands or millions of miles rather than light years. The kind of distances they mention are what you would expect from one point to another in a star system, but in terms of interstellar travel would be totally inconsequential.

(from War Stories)
MAL
We are about 20,000 miles from our last
drop, people, then we can take a break
and think about spending some of this
money.

(from The Train Job)
OTHER MAN
We didn't fly 86 million miles to track down
a box of bandaids, Colonel.

(A hugely convincing piece of evidence, that second one. The dialogue seems to suggest the man flew a long distance, but 86 million miles to a ship capable of FTL would be an extraordinarily short voyage).

FTL

In 14 episodes, not a single line of dialogue that indicates they are travelling faster than light. Nothing from Wash the pilot, or Kaylee the engineer that sounds like FTL talk or discussion of what drives it, and not one piece of visual on-screen evidence of FTL travel. Also, every time they encounter another ship in space (Serenity, Bushwhacked, etc) the ships always seem to be traveling at relativistic speeds. Finally, the few mentions of propulsion (in Serenity and The Message) seem to imply conventional travel - using more fuel cells or burning harder to shorten travel time sounds more like the characteristics of a conventional drive.

etc., etc.

Yes, I know we can think up reasons to cancel the above evidence. Maybe they just never talk about their FTL drive. Maybe all the mentions of light years and interstellar distances happen off screen. Maybe they conveniently slow down to sub-light speeds whenever they meet another ship (I'm sure the Reavers are grateful for that). The question is, do you think that's reasonable?

Hans

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Monday, February 23, 2004 4:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
If they were still inside our solar system do you think they'd refer to 'Earth That Was' with such mythic tones?

I can't speak for others, but I think most people who support the one system theory don't think it happens in our system, but another nearby one.

I presume that they used sub-light colony ships to leave Earth. So, if the other system was 15 light years away, and they managed to accelerate their ships up to 1/2 lightspeed, they'd get there in 30 years. One could imagine a rapid deterioration of the Earth in the late-21st/early-22nd centuries, followed by a period of 100 years or so when massive colony ship left the Earth for the new system (which, presumably, had many planets that were either Earth-like or viable candidates for terraforming). No need for FTL.

Hans

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Monday, February 23, 2004 4:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Anyway, to the point. I was looking at the FireflyWiki site yesterday and apparently at some point in the show they mention the 'Georgia system'. That would undoubtedly point towards multiple systems and therefore (sadly, IMO) FTL.

Sorry, but that could easily mean a "planetary system" (a term I think they use in one of the episodes, but I don't have the reference on hand). In fact, the reason I'm 99% sure the show does take place in a single system is the language used in the show to describe the locations they visit. There's dozens of references to moons and planets, but not a single one to a star system, or a sun, or a solar system, something you'd think they'd mention if they were travelling over interstellar distances.

Note this very interesting piece of dialogue from "Serenity":

Dobson
"You're carrying a fugitive across
interplanetary borders..."

Interplanetary, not interstellar. By itself this is not definitive, but when piled up with all the other evidence it makes a strong case for the one system theory.

Hans

A good point that hadn't occured to me :) Just to clarify my position, I'm in the 'single (not our) solar system + no FTL' camp, which would put me in complete agreement with you :)

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Monday, February 23, 2004 5:55 AM

Shamefully, I hadn't given this much thought before starting on this thread (except a brief mental note regarding the reavers encounter in 'Bushwhacked', and an aesthetic appreciation of the 'naturalistic' feel of Serenity's travels).

Having got this far, though, I find myself inclined to agree with Hans and Grounded (among others) on the way of this. So, from a non-partisan viewpoint, I have a couple of issues:

Terraforming is all well and good, but it can't change the strength of the sun (or can it???) So, how do people have inhabitable worlds at liveable temperatures with (presumably) such variety of distance from said sun;

Congestion - probably just me, but there seems to be a lot of ships and people kicking around in space for just one solar system. I guess if I were out and about in our own solar system I'd feel a little differently, so okay... it is just me;

Route-planner 2517 - travel through a solar system means a lot more attention to orbits. After all, if you pick the wrong time to fly, you could end up more than tripling your journey time.

Still, maybe this new solar system's sun has a bit more oomph than our little old red dwarf (or whatever it is!) - would mean everything is further out, but might go some way to helping me feel easier about the first two.

Or I could just be rambling - who knows?

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Monday, February 23, 2004 5:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
A good point that hadn't occured to me :) Just to clarify my position, I'm in the 'single (not our) solar system + no FTL' camp, which would put me in complete agreement with you :)

I wasn't sure whether they had brought you over to the dark side or not with their crafty arguments. :) If we're not on the winning side of this argument, at least we know we'll be on the right one...

Hans

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Monday, February 23, 2004 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
A good point that hadn't occured to me :) Just to clarify my position, I'm in the 'single (not our) solar system + no FTL' camp, which would put me in complete agreement with you :)

I wasn't sure whether they had brought you over to the dark side or not with their crafty arguments. :) If we're not on the winning side of this argument, at least we know we'll be on the right one...

Hans

:)

The trouble is, because the show is a bit scientifically vague and, in places, mildly inconsistent, I'd say there's no way to really prove either theory. My reasons for saying 1 system and no FTL are mainly aesthetic.

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Monday, February 23, 2004 7:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AJ:

(stuff cut)
Terraforming is all well and good, but it can't change the strength of the sun (or can it???) So, how do people have inhabitable worlds at liveable temperatures with (presumably) such variety of distance from said sun;

This is probably one of the strongest arguments against the one-system theory - the fact that the so-called "life zone" in a system may not be big enough.

Personally, I think it works something like this: there is an optimal life zone, where earth-like planets occur naturally, and there's a marginal life zone, where planets can be terraformed to be livable but are never very comfortable (e.g. desert- or arctic-like environments, depending on things like the level of greenhouse gasses and the distance from the sun). The lush, rich, Earth-like planets form the "central planets" and the marginal planets are out on the rim, leading to the core/rim split we all know and love.

Others have speculated that the Firefly system has a blue star, which as the largest star type (?) will have the biggest life zone. Blue star? Blue Sun? Hmmm...

Quote:
Originally posted by AJ:

Route-planner 2517 - travel through a solar system means a lot more attention to orbits. After all, if you pick the wrong time to fly, you could end up more than tripling your journey time.

I don't think this is an argument against the one-system theory (and maybe you don't either), it just leads to some interesting navigation problems.

On another matter:

I have a beautiful map of the Firefly system I created that will silence my opponents once and for all. :) Every time I've tried to load it to the Blue Sun Room I get an error. It seems to be the right format/size. I sent a message to Hakan about this but he hasn't gotten back to me. Anyone else having trouble loading images? Maybe it's a lcoal problem.

Hans

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Monday, February 23, 2004 8:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
There's dozens of references to moons and planets, but not a single one to a star system, or a sun, or a solar system, something you'd think they'd mention if they were travelling over interstellar distances.

That's not very compelling evidence though. No one lives on a star. If I go to Taiwan, I say I'm going to Taiwan, not "Asia" or "Earth" or "Sol system". I might even say "Taibei". People tend to refer to things by the most well known landmark, which might not be the star in question. I live outside of D.C., but when I'm travelling and people ask me where I'm from, that's what I tell them. "North America" is too broad, and "Takoma Park" too specific.

Particularly if there are only a few inhabited star systems, you'd still refer to destinations more specifically than just by star. If you're headed to Ariel, there's only one big famous Ariel, and everyone knows what star it circles, you wouldn't say it any other way unless you wanted to be purposefully vague.

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Monday, February 23, 2004 8:51 AM

Maybe not, but the actual distances mentioned in the show are compelling for the one system argument.

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Monday, February 23, 2004 9:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lodril:

That's not very compelling evidence though. No one lives on a star. If I go to Taiwan, I say I'm going to Taiwan, not "Asia" or "Earth" or "Sol system". I might even say "Taibei". People tend to refer to things by the most well known landmark, which might not be the star in question. I live outside of D.C., but when I'm travelling and people ask me where I'm from, that's what I tell them. "North America" is too broad, and "Takoma Park" too specific.
(stuff cut)

Hmmm, I have to disagree. First of all, people do talk about broad generalizations (asian cooking, european vacations, african music, etc). You're right that as inhabitants of Earth we don't talk about Earth or the sol system as a destination - that's because our entire society is contained within that system. This, to me, is exactly the same reason Mal and the gang don't talk about stars or solar systems - their entire society is contained within their solar system. And if their universe was made up of a handful of star systems with dozens of planets (like the continent/country analogy) I still think you'd have to mention a star system here or there (especially since conventional travel within a star system is presumably very different from FTL travel to a different star system, in terms of propulsion method, distances, and travel times).

You're absolutely right that it could be convention in the Firefly universe to talk about planet names and not stars. I just find it strange that they are never mentioned.

Hans

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Monday, February 23, 2004 9:44 AM

NIHILISMNOW

For me it is pretty clear that it is a single solar system. Most of the evidence that leads me to believe this has been mentioned above.

Also if there were multiple systems the spectrum of visible light would be different in each of the systems and the majority of the systems would have to be binary or trinary. We havent seen a single shot in firefly of 2 suns in the sky.

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Monday, February 23, 2004 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NihilismNow:
Also if there were multiple systems the spectrum of visible light would be different in each of the systems and the majority of the systems would have to be binary or trinary. We havent seen a single shot in firefly of 2 suns in the sky.

There are lots of binary or trinary systems in the galaxy, but not all solar systems are that way. For all we know, those systems would be far more difficult to colonize, which would be why we don't see them (higher ambient radiation, more tectonic activity from the gravities involved, etc). The lack of multiple suns in the various episodes doesn't point to much of anything.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what color the star is, the human brain comprehends one set of colors. My guess is that you're suggesting that different colored stars would give everything a funky tint. I'm not sure that's true, since our own sun skews things blue, and it's yellow. At that level of light intensity, I don't think the color of the star effects the visible spectrum. Besides, a TV show where everything was tinted funky colors would be nigh unwatchable. Not even Star Trek goes that far most of the time, and I consider it pretty unwatchable as is.

I still think there's not enough evidence to go either way. The best 'single system' argument is the distances that Mal lists off from time to time. Which isn't really very solid either. In the alternative, you've got lots of Earth-sized (or at least Earth-gravity) worlds with similar climates, which would seem to be difficult to pack into a single system.

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Monday, February 23, 2004 12:41 PM

The sky is blue, not because of the Sun's emission spectrum, but because of the way the atmosphere scatters light.

Lodril - why don't you think the distances are 'solid'?

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Monday, February 23, 2004 12:52 PM

POPEBOB

Ya know, the Star cluster bit sounds good. maybe even a couple close star clusters. thats why it takes a few hours to get to some places and a few days to get to others. Of course i don't think Serenity has FTL capabilities but i do believe that it's possible to do 1/2 light. I think Joss would have wanted to stray from the whole ftl "warp speed mr. sulu" crap. Not that i have anything against Rodenberry.. i just like Firefly the most

With what ive seen of Joss in pertinent interviews it would make sense that they go PGF or the like but not FTL.

Ahhhh.. Curse you sudden but inevitable betrayal!!

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Monday, February 23, 2004 2:38 PM

LTNOWIS

Personally I gotta go with the no FTL side, simply because they never show any evidende or references to FTL. Though I gotta say that it would hard to have "sectors," as book says, if all the planets are spinning. So I tend to side with the Star Cluster theory.

But do you think Joss'll ever tell us? I think that even if the series goes on for a couple more seasons, the writers won't resolve this little mystery, to avoid ticking off half the fans. That, and they don't think it's important

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Monday, February 23, 2004 4:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
The sky is blue, not because of the Sun's emission spectrum, but because of the way the atmosphere scatters light.

That wasn't what I was referring to. Find a room with white tile and close all the doors and windows on a bright sunny day. Look at the tile under artificial light. Next, let in the sunlight and look at the tiles. They'll have a noticably bluer tint. I'm not entirely sure why, but sunlight skews blue; it's most noticable when you don't white balance an older camera after moving it from inside light to outside light. To the naked eye, however, the difference is seldom seen.

Quote:
Lodril - why don't you think the distances are 'solid'?

Numerous reasons... one, we don't know where he started counting. Say he claims to travel 30 million miles. What does that include? What if he has some sort of 'jump' technology that lets him skip trillions of miles in between? Is it 30 million straight he's talking about, or 30 million at sublight/analog travel? FTL might well just avoid the passage of time entirely, in which case he might not count it.

The stronger response is that just because planet A and B are within a certain distance does not mean that all the settled planets are within a single solar system. Planet C might be much, much farther out... which is why they're doing a short run between A and B (possibly on the way to C). We don't really visit that many planets in the series, so it's quite possible Serenity stayed mostly in one local area while being capable of going much farther. There's just no way to tell.

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Monday, February 23, 2004 8:13 PM

WYDRAZ

Serenity doesn't need FTL to travel interstellar distances. Everyone knows that once you break the system boundary (just outside the Oort cloud) that the time-dilated space between stars allows the ship (and light, and everything else) to move at thousands of times the speed that light travels inside a system.

This is the future, folks, anything could be true. All of the above arguments are valid, but has anyone considered they could all be true too?

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Monday, February 23, 2004 11:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lodril:
What if he has some sort of 'jump' technology that lets him skip trillions of miles in between? Is it 30 million straight he's talking about, or 30 million at sublight/analog travel? FTL might well just avoid the passage of time entirely, in which case he might not count it.

Interesting point. It may be logical to say that it's pure lunacy to travel at FTL within a solar system, as you're more than likely to plough into planets, debris, other ships, etc..., so the necessary approach is to plod through all those millions of miles to get to the edge of a system, jump to the edge of the next, and plod on again.

Although personally I'm still leaning towards the single (large, blue sunned) solar system theory.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 3:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LtNOWIS:
Personally I gotta go with the no FTL side, simply because they never show any evidende or references to FTL. Though I gotta say that it would hard to have "sectors," as book says, if all the planets are spinning. So I tend to side with the Star Cluster theory.

The references to sectors and quadrants are a little confusing if they are in an ever-changing solar system. However, it makes sense that they would come up with some geographic system to differentiate different parts of the system. A sector could be a certain degree arc out from the sun, while a quadrant could be a 45 degree "slice" of the orbit that contains a particular planet, or vice versa, or something completely different. Just because they use geographic terms doesn't mean those regions are fixed in space. A sector could be a certain portion of a planet's orbit that rotates around the sun with the planet - think of the tumblers of a lock spinning around a central axis. Thus, when someone is "8 sectors away" they are 8 orbits into (or out of) your current location.

Star clusters sounds like a nice solution, but from everything I've heard if the stars are close enough together that you don't need FTL, then the gravity effects from nearby stars would make planetary orbits unstable. Even if the next star was only 1/10th of a light year away (extremely close in galactic terms) it would still take months at half-lightspeed to reach them. However, I'm not as astrophysicist and may be wrong...

Quote:
Originally posted by LtNOWIS:

But do you think Joss'll ever tell us? I think that even if the series goes on for a couple more seasons, the writers won't resolve this little mystery, to avoid ticking off half the fans. That, and they don't think it's important

Ultimately, it's not important. 99% of why I enjoy the show is the characters, the plots, the drama. However, as an intellectual exercise, it's a fun topic to debate...

Hans

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 4:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
Star clusters sounds like a nice solution, but from everything I've heard if the stars are close enough together that you don't need FTL, then the gravity effects from nearby stars would make planetary orbits unstable.

Good points all around in your post.

With the unstable gravitation though, that might explain why most of the planets are so much less civilized. If they're only habitable for a few decades before massive earthquakes or something, that would keep the less stable planets less civilized. Big infrastructure just wouldn't be justified if it only lasted a few years.

Another point, which could go towards the single system argument, is that in "Trash" they're on an asteroid that's been terraformed, but it seems to have Earth level gravity. This would point towards normalization of gravity being part of the terraforming process. Serenity obviously has artificial gravity of some kind throughout, and so the technology to effect an entire planet could be within reach. Depending on how much control over gravity can be exerted with their technology, and how expensive it is to do so, it vastly expands the type of worlds that can be settled, since you no longer have to worry about size when considering a potential settlement.

If that's the case, then any boulder floating in space could be terraformed and settled. Even our own solar system might have enough raw surface area to make reasonable colonies.

Of course, that doesn't address the issue of proximity to the sun as an environmental condition. Or any other number of things (tectonics springs to mind). I still lean towards a cluster of close planets, but no argument so far has really been able to rule out anything.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 4:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
Star clusters sounds like a nice solution, but from everything I've heard if the stars are close enough together that you don't need FTL, then the gravity effects from nearby stars would make planetary orbits unstable.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 5:17 AM

ROCKETJOCK

A question that's been bothering me. If the Alliance (or whatever ancestor of the alliance sponsored the great emmigration) has terraformation technology advanced enough to reshape 70-100 worlds in less that 500 years, then why did they leave Sol system to begin with?

Presumably Earth-that-was has been ruined in some way that isn't easily repairable (radioactive half-lives being what they are), but Sol system is as likely a target for terraformation projects as any other.

Why bother to cross interstellar gulfs to reach a solar system that you're going to have to rebuild anyway, when you have a perfectly good one at your front door?

I'm sure someone will point out that the proto-alliance might not have known the target system was without earthlike worlds until they got there; but logically they must have had the T-Tech before departure; they sure as hell couldn't develop it on the way. And if they had it, why didn't they reshape Mars, Venus, or Europa?

Of course, if the multiple systems hypothesis is correct, this isn't a problem. They speak of "Earth-that-was", not "Sol-System-that-was", after all. Perhaps some of the worlds we saw were right here in home space all along...

Come to think of it, "Ariel" is the name of a moon right here in Sol System...

RocketJock

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 5:56 AM

SAINT JAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
Ultimately, it's not important. 99% of why I enjoy the show is the characters, the plots, the drama. However, as an intellectual exercise, it's a fun topic to debate...

It's fun to read, although I don't have much to add. I thought these type of debates always ended with "Stephen Hawking wasn't on the writing team so none of it makes a lick of sense". Who, BTW, I send my best wishes to during his illness.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 9:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lodril:

With the unstable gravitation though, that might explain why most of the planets are so much less civilized. If they're only habitable for a few decades before massive earthquakes or something, that would keep the less stable planets less civilized. Big infrastructure just wouldn't be justified if it only lasted a few years.

If the orbits of the planets were erratic they'd have a lot more than earthquakes to worry about! I think the point is that if there was a star cluster then planets wouldn't be able to form stable orbits in the first place.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 5:45 PM

WYDRAZ

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
If the Alliance has terraformation technology advanced enough to reshape 70-100 worlds in less that 500 years, then why did they leave Sol system to begin with?

No doubt Mars and Venus are among the Core Worlds, I'd gather.

But there is the sun's "biozone" to consider, which puts most other planets in the system either too close (and too hot) or too far (and too cold) to terraform. Thus, it's time to go exploring other systems!

Once you colonize Mars and Venus, you might need more room in other systems. That probably happened before the Earth was ruined, and where we learned to terraform.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:31 PM

JASONZZZ

Plenty of material in the system. We can toll stuff from the asteroid belt and other places, put them around the LeGrange points in the same orbital path as Earth, viola, start filling up the biozone in exactly the same place where everything else has worked.

Quote:
Originally posted by wydraz:
Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
If the Alliance has terraformation technology advanced enough to reshape 70-100 worlds in less that 500 years, then why did they leave Sol system to begin with?

No doubt Mars and Venus are among the Core Worlds, I'd gather.

But there is the sun's "biozone" to consider, which puts most other planets in the system either too close (and too hot) or too far (and too cold) to terraform. Thus, it's time to go exploring other systems!

Once you colonize Mars and Venus, you might need more room in other systems. That probably happened before the Earth was ruined, and where we learned to terraform.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 8:01 PM

NOOCYTE

You know, something's been vexing me on this subject. Please pardon the scanty, too-long-since-being-refreshed layman's knowledge of relativity.

We've been going back and forth on the question of supralight speeds, what with the mass-increases-exponentially-close-to-light-speed (okay, now is when I stop with the hyphens) conundrum.

Buuut...

We already know that ships in the 'verse are able to generate artificial gravity, at least within their own hulls, without the need to spin sections of the ship for centripedal "gravity." Hell, they can even turn it on and off (witness the boxes crashing to the deck near the beginning of "Serenity," when everyone was safe and sound in the airlock). This would, I believe, make it necessary to have some ability to locally alter the curvature of spacetime. Indeed, this is done in such a blase, no-fuss way that no one ever comments on it (except for Kaylee with the buffeting in "The Message"), and it works even when primary power is out (OOG). Incidentally, it would also be robust enough that rich folks with all manner of expensive stuff would choose to live on floaty island estates...and, presumably still get insurance!

So, the question which occurs to me is whether such an ability to essentially alter the gravitational constant in the vicinity of the ship might not in itself constitute a way to get around the light-speed barrier, and so enable interstellar travel without all the fireworks of a Warp Drive (and so escape specific mention as a separate drive system, being a subset of the "grav drive"). The problem of being able to exceed C in flat space would be sidestepped because space would not, strictly speaking, be flat around the ship (this might also address the issue of the folks planetside getting older a lot faster from a ship's crew's perspective, what with them zooming around at near-relativistic speeds all the time. Time dilation for such a well-travelled crew would be a Big Problem. For example, Badger might have aged as much as a few years between "Serenity" and "Shindig!").

So, is there anyone with enough of a knowledge of General Relativity to comment on such wildly speculative stuff?

Keep Flyin'!

Department of Redundancy Department

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 11:23 PM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
If the orbits of the planets were erratic they'd have a lot more than earthquakes to worry about! I think the point is that if there was a star cluster then planets wouldn't be able to form stable orbits in the first place.

They'd constantly get tugged out and end up as frozen bodies spinning in interstellar space. Earthquakes would not be a big problem I don't think.

Erratic orbits will screw up your weather something fierce, but generating earthquakes? Don't think so.

Remember that time scale is important. If you can maintain a stable orbit of say 1000 years, a mere eyeblink on the cosmological scale, why not? Besides which, 1000 years gives you time to figure out a more permenent solution.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Tuesday, February 24, 2004 11:48 PM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
We already know that ships in the 'verse are able to generate artificial gravity, at least within their own hulls, without the need to spin sections of the ship for centripedal "gravity." Hell, they can even turn it on and off (witness the boxes crashing to the deck near the beginning of "Serenity," when everyone was safe and sound in the airlock). This would, I believe, make it necessary to have some ability to locally alter the curvature of spacetime. Indeed, this is done in such a blase, no-fuss way that no one ever comments on it (except for Kaylee with the buffeting in "The Message"), and it works even when primary power is out (OOG). Incidentally, it would also be robust enough that rich folks with all manner of expensive stuff would choose to live on floaty island estates...and, presumably still get insurance!

So, the question which occurs to me is whether such an ability to essentially alter the gravitational constant in the vicinity of the ship might not in itself constitute a way to get around the light-speed barrier, and so enable interstellar travel without all the fireworks of a Warp Drive (and so escape specific mention as a separate drive system, being a subset of the "grav drive"). The problem of being able to exceed C in flat space would be sidestepped because space would not, strictly speaking, be flat around the ship (this might also address the issue of the folks planetside getting older a lot faster from a ship's crew's perspective, what with them zooming around at near-relativistic speeds all the time. Time dilation for such a well-travelled crew would be a Big Problem. For example, Badger might have aged as much as a few years between "Serenity" and "Shindig!").

So, is there anyone with enough of a knowledge of General Relativity to comment on such wildly speculative stuff?

Keep Flyin'!

Department of Redundancy Department

Yes. His name is Miguel Alcubierre, who was a grad student at the University of Cardiff, and now working at the Max Plank Institute in Germany, (under one of his old professors I think.)

In 1994 he wrote a paper, (apparently as a lark) about how to achieve FTL travel within the confines of GR. It can be found at athttp://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0009/0009013.pdf.

There has been an interesting exchange about whether this would work or not, exclusively on technical issues and not the underlying theory. There is a big question about whether quantum effects would rule it out, and several work arounds have been written up and worked out.

In essense, you are right. If you can control gravity to the extent we have already seen, you should be able to do FTL rather easily.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 3:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
A question that's been bothering me. If the Alliance (or whatever ancestor of the alliance sponsored the great emmigration) has terraformation technology advanced enough to reshape 70-100 worlds in less that 500 years, then why did they leave Sol system to begin with?
(stuff cut)

The main reason Earth was abandonned, for me, has more to do with political reasons than technical ones (and this is 100% speculative). The Alliance (as a very autocratic organization) wants to have complete control of all human colonies. If humanity was spread out over more than one system, and FTL had not been invented, then it would take decades for either people or messages to go from one system to another. This would make it impossible for a unified government to exist, and the different solar systems would almost certainly develop their own independent governments.

The Alliance, or whatever government existed before this, would not allow this. Thus, Earth and the Sol system was deliberately allowed to fall into decay when the Alliance decided to centralize humanity in the new system, which had more viable planets and resources. They would do this by deliberately ignoring environmental problems on Earth, strip-mining resources on Earth and other planets to make their colony ships, economic embargos, even military action.

Hans

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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 1:15 PM

GORAMSHINY

Okay, I've been a silent member of this board for a while now ( mostly cause i could never remember my gorram password and didn't want to bother calling it back up ) but being the giant science geek i am i can't stay silent any longer.

Now, I've read this thread from tip to tail and have cobbled together my own history of everything. No doubt one much in error but here goes.

IT's my understanding that the Alliance itself wasn't a formal goverment till after the indipendance war ( and as has been previously stated i think, we've no idea how long that war lasted. ) So here's what i think happened. The two majour powers on earth that was ( being the american and Chinese ) were able to launch the majourity of colony ships ( most likely mutli generational ones) when whatever happened back in good old sol was gonna happen. As such their cultures came to dominate the new home of humanity. At some point after the founding of the new worlds the alliance formed, possibly as a economic union or mutual protection pack from raiding/warring colonies. That alliance decided that voluntary joining of same wasn't good enough anymore and launched a war on the colonies that hadn't already joined up ( and as has been stated in teh show that the rim is being pushed out we can assume that between the start of the war and the placement of firefly some growth occured as well ) which could mean that a war was raging on the core planets for long enough that the planets on the (then) rim ( Shadow perhaps ) wouldn't have been embroiled in the war till much later, perhaps long enough for a young malcom reynolds to come of age and join up to defend his home.

Now, what does this have to do with the whole 1 system/many systems question?

Not much, just a background on where I'm coming from.

Now someone else posted in this thread that it's possible that the drive we see Serenity using, the 'full burn' is just a menthod of getting to a FTL safe launch point. Something to get to the edge of systems rather then a point to point drive.

This, to me, makes sense. If the Firefly 'verse does have FTL then perhaps the drive system can't be used(safely?) inside a system's gravity well.

That would allow for both the measurments we see in the show ( all intrasystem distances ) while still allowing the possibility of a multi system universe.

This, to me, makes the most sense. Traveling through the vast space between systems, even with the fun of a 'streaky' star filled window, hardly makes good TV so it's understandable that they would leave that out ( as they do most of the travel time between places in a system ). So, basically i think it's both, I think there's a number of fairly close ( and by close i mean a few light years ) each with a few terraformed worlds & moons ( Wouldn't put it past the alliance to 'make' a few worlds out of anything floating around if they felt the need and plopping them in the 'habitable' zone of a star ) This would solve everything. The number of planets in a system could be maintained at a reasonable number for all and allow the use of some for of Intersystem travel ( be it FTL, Jump Gates, what not )

So, there's my two cents, pick it apart all you like and my appologies for any spelling/grammer errors. I can't do either if my rutting life depended on it.

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:05 AM

Ah, jump gates, yes - then a more specific geographic correlation could be formed between systems (need to travel to a specific jump gate to get to a specific system). The Alliance would like that!

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:37 AM

I have posted my speculative map of the Firefly system in the Blue Sun room...

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=840

Notes:

As one can see, I am a believer in the “one-system” theory, and think the show takes place in a single star system. I am aware of the arguments against this theory, but it still feels right to me. The purpose of the map was to help me visualize what the system might look like.
I was going to include another map tracing the journey of Serenity over the course of the show, but decided against it. The great Firefly Timeline ( www.mts.net/~arphaxad/firefly.html) by Edgar Governo shows that there are several gaps between episodes of up to several months, and it was too hard to speculate on where the ship was during those periods.

Some notes on the map:

- “Number of habitable worlds” includes both moons and planets in that planetary system, as applicable. The names of habitable moons are indicated next to the appropriate planet; unnamed or non-life supporting moons are not shown.

- I speculate that there is an "optimal life zone", where earth-like planets occur naturally, and a "marginal life zone", where extensive terraforming is needed and planets are never 100% earth-like. Obviously, the core planets are in the optimal zone and the rim/border planets are in the marginal zone. Only orbits in the optimal and marginal life zones are shown, with the exception of the planet in orbit #1 (outside life zone). There are presumably other planets beyond orbit #17 that are outside the marginal life zone. This is probably Reaver territory...

- The name of a planet is bolded. In some cases the name of a planet is not known and only the names of mentioned moons are shown.

- On the map, the position of the planets on their orbits is shown for reference purposes only. Actual position will of course vary over time as the planets move about their orbits.

- Where possible I tried to use travel times mentioned in the show to get an idea of a planet’s/moon’s position. However, there are only a few travel times mentioned and almost no distances. I figured that in most cases it would take a couple days for a ship to travel from one planetary system to another assuming they are in relatively close orbits and the planets are in the same general arc coming out from the sun. For example, in “Serenity” it takes two days to reach Whitefall from Persephone and another two days or so to reach Beaumonde. Persephone seems to be in a semi-civilized region of space (but outside the Core) while Whitefall is definitely out in the wilder part of the system. We can assume at the time of the episode both planets were in the same general position on their orbits – if Whitefall had been on the other side of the system the travel time would have been weeks, not days.

Hans

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Thursday, February 26, 2004 6:27 PM

THEROGUEROOSTER

I have to say that this has been the most enjoyable thread I've read in a long time! I can't commit to any side though, simply because I'm not convinced that the Joss-man himself has figured out all the extents of the Firefly verse. Travel times seem to be dictated by the needs of the script, and (to borrow a line I've read somewhere) ships "move at the speed of plot."

But I'm with the rest of y'all in that I'd love an answer to this question.

In regards to why humans left Earth in the first place, from Mal's intro my understanding is that "the Earth got used up," meaning we finally burned through all the natural resources mother-Earth had to give. No great disasters or political machinations -- she simply couldn't sustain us any longer.

Perhaps the movie will prompt Joss to flesh out the 'verse in more detail, and give us the single vs. multiple system answer once and for all.

Hey, it could happen!
-tRR

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Monday, August 9, 2004 10:16 AM

Well, I used the recently-leaked map from the movie as a basis for my own map using the program It's Full of Stars (IFOS is a GREAT free program, by the way!).

It's all in 3-D positioning, using a 4-solar-system, very, very tight star cluster. Not TERRIBLY realistic, but a compromise between galaxy and solar system, and completely consistent with said leaked map.

If anyone wants the IFOS file from me - it's got the systems all worked out, by the way - let me know.

Haken, if you don't want it here, I'll take it down!

Here's the Blue Sun Room link:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=1718

- Forrestwolf

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Monday, August 9, 2004 11:15 AM

GHOULMAN

... some things I learned about the 'verse.

People in the 'verse are stupid. They use terms like 'universe' and 'galaxy' to refer to anything not on a planet. This is as intentional on the show as much as it is unintentional in real life.

Everything revolves around a Big Blue Sun.

There are dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. Certainly enough to call it 'big' and small enough not to need warp nacelles. Thank the 'verse!

Personally, the show seems to be obvious about it's setting. Why people argue about it really mystifies me.

But hey, don't mind me. Please continue.

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Monday, August 9, 2004 9:44 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

I reckon the majority of Firelfy takes place within our own Solar system, but that is not to say it goes beyond it.

There are many reasons I believe that it takes place around, Mars, the Sun, Jupiter, Earth-that-was...many little clues and pointers within the show, and many signs that we are still hanging around Jupiter and so forth

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=6528

I've wrote some about it on that thread

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Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:56 AM

While I find the idea of our solar system being the one in Firefly attractive, and I like the idea of one solar system even better, I can't ignore the existence of the leaked map from the movie. Lest we think the artist who drew it wasn't the one chosen by Joss, two facts:

1) His money was clearly chosen (see the image of prop money from the movie - it's the same as the one in the leaked map image).

2) He's the author of a rather realistic Star Trek charts book. The style is the same on the Firefly map - and as a maker of realistic star charts, he's an obvious choice for Joss.

That's why I've reluctantly modified my belief in one solar system and gone to the four systems shown in his map. If we assume his map was to scale - even including the planets (and that they weren't just expanded views overlaid on the stars) - then you get something like what I put together in the Blue Sun Room image. And FTL isn't necessary! A subluminal colony ship would have made the exodus there over the course of a long time (hundred years?), and then people settled it.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:34 AM

Version 2 of my speculative system map has been posted in the Blue Sun Room at:
www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=1737#7166

I've been working on this for a while, put it away, then saw some of the recent promotional material for Serenity that (too my mind at least) reinfoces the single system theory.

Planets are not shown to scale. Only planets are shown, but we can assume each planet has a large system of moons. The names of named planets (in bold) and moons (regular text) are shown. I did not include any scales or distances, since we have so little information on that it's hard to be accurate. If we assume the sun is a Blue Sun (which would make for the largest life zones possible) than maybe the outermost orbit shown is 10 AUs or more out.

I am assuming there are other orbits beyond the ones shown in the uninhabitable zone.

As to the question of why the outer planets, furthest from the sun, seem hot and desertlike - a heavy greenhouse effect, which as part of terraforming is needed to keep the outer planets at a stable temperature.

This was done in Poser and Photoshop.

Enjoy!

Hans

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004 6:16 AM

SHINY

http://chud.com/interviews/980
_________________________________________________

Q: Does Serenity go faster than light?

Joss: I don't think so.

Q: Are the planets really close together?

Joss: They’re really close together. You’ve never seen a planet cluster like this one. It’s a little planet village. If you start asking me science questions I’m going to cry.

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004 6:59 AM

WYDRAZ

No wonder there is so much confusion about this. Joss doesn't even know for sure...

Oh, and play Strange Adventures in Infinite Space. http://digital-eel.com/sais

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:11 AM

Me, a long time ago: "am I the only one campaigning for single system, no FTL?"

Win!

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:13 AM

Thank you thank you thank you Shiny (and Joss) for answering this one! I know, it's vague. But it's pretty gorram clear Joss WISHES it could be non-FTL, even if the science doesn't QUITE add up.

I'm sticking with my own close-star-cluster approach to my Firefly campaign now :)

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:19 AM

XENOCIDE

I don't know if anyone has read Kim Stanley Robinson's "(Red, Green, Blue) Mars" books but by the end he has folks terraforming Pluto! I think any society that manipulates gravity as easily as is done in firefly could move a whole lot of energy out of the "temperate zone" of a solar system using gravitational lensing. You might even be able to 'densen' (sorry for making up words here but my major was politics not Physics or English) a gas giant enough to make yourself a small star. If you have the gravity technology you can move mountains or steady orbits. On the fringes though, politically speaking, planets will have less access to the resources of society. So gravity tech might be sparse on Whitefall or othersuch places.

Zoe told us (which episode?) that when teraforming folks made planets as much like earth that was as could be; atmo, bio, gravity. She specifically mentioned gravity so a place like our moon might be made just a little denser so it could hold atmo (and settlers) down.

I think this helps the single system theory a great deal. You can teraform all the way to Oort if you want to with grave tech and fusion.

Of course any culture with grav tech and fusion is probably right on the cusp (at least) of FTL. Infinite energy and the ability to manipulate space-time? That'll get you past PGF pretty gorramn fast, won't it?

I also like Single system better in the Civil War metaphor. I want Unification to be a war of brother vs brother. A fight between neighbors. Not "Starship Troopers" or "Forever War" but rather "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress."

And for all you folks who say we're missing the point, and "It's about the characters." Well, duh. But it's Hard to run a D20 Future firefly campaign without knowing where stuff is. You know my players are gonna ask!

Furthermore, Serenity is my favorite character and I wanna know how gorramn fast she goes!

Well, that's my two cents, argue on,

"Though I may be crucified one thousand times over, I will never serve another master"

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:17 AM

CONSCIENCE

Quote:
Originally posted by xenocide:
Of course any culture with grav tech and fusion is probably right on the cusp (at least) of FTL.

That's assuming faster-than-light travel is even possible. I for one really doubt that it is.

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:28 AM