Why didn't Mal flush Jayne out of the air lock? by TheSomnambulist

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Why didn't Mal flush Jayne out of the air lock?

POSTED BY: THESOMNAMBULIST
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 08:34
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VIEWED: 4607
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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:07 AM

Hey all.

I was rewatching Ariel again last night and I began to wonder just why Mal didn't flush Jayne out of the air lock?

Jayne's betrayal is a very significant act. Something that I would have imagined a character like Mal just would not tolerate.

(Don't get me wrong) I love the character of Jayne, but I wonder what it would have done for the show had Mal opened the air lock?

Would that have changed the show for you guys for the better or for the worse?

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:28 AM

GORRAMREAVERS

I also thought Jayne went WAY over the line in Ariel. Mal keeps Jayne around even though he seems to know that Jayne will turn on him as soon as 'the money is good enough'. I also think that Jayne has learned his lesson with trusting any Fed and seemed to be more part of the crew after Ariel. So yeah...that really isnt much of an awnser :)

I am glad Mal didnt kill Jayne though. Last night I was watching Deadwood (great show on HBO (western) that they are showing the repeats 2 at a time on monday nights) and one of the main characters took a bullet to the back of the brain. That sucked.

"..it is my very favorite gun."

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:35 AM

BYTETHEBULLET

I believe that Jayne saying 'don't tell 'em what I did'(from memory) is what kept him alive.

Oh, and Deadwood is a really good series also. I have been watching the reruns again and learning more this time around.

ByteTheBullet (-:

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:37 AM

GWEK

Seems to me that Mal doesn't kill Jayne because, at the last second, Jayne cares what the others think of him. That, more than any apology or excuse our favorite mercenary could come up with, tells Mal that Jayne wants to be part of the crew.

Once he knows that, once he knows there's "hope" for Jayne, Mal is not a cold enough bastard to kill him in cold blood. Who on that ship hasn't needed a second chance, after all?

If Jayne ever crosses him again, though, I suspect there will be no leniency.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Because by saying "don't tell them what I done" Jayne is showing a glimmer of loyalty. He's beginning to actually care what the others think of him.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:43 AM

STATIC

I think Mal is very slowly starting to gain a little faith back piece by piece...episode by episode. Maybe not in God, but definitely his fellow man.

Jayne has ALOT of bad points as a character, but the thing is...he's part of the family. He's the older brother who dropped out of college, has a drinking problem, constantly shows up to borrow money, maybe even steals the silver...but when little sister gets hurt by some guy at school, big brother shows up and folds the bastard up and stacks him neatly in a corner somewhere.

Mal is 'Dad', and Jayne, for all his faults, is one of HIS. Mal would NEVER have let Zoe or Book flush Jayne because it's HIS place to do so, and his place to decide on mercy.

The ONLY thing Jayne could have done to show GENUINE remorse is to accept his pending death and ask...finally...not to be SPARED, but only his dignity. "Please...I'm a sonofabitch...but don't let them know how BIG of a sonofabitch I am?"

Mal saw the one glimmer of hope in Jayne that he wishes he could find in himself and decided that it was his responsibility to allow that glimmer to grow.

I think Jayne also understood without question that if he ever betrayed the crew like that again, that Mal wouldn't bother to make it look like an accident. . .he'd just put a bullet in his head without question.

What Mal did was FINALLY buy Jayne's TRUE loyalty with something no measure of cash could 'trump'.

And I think Mal knew the whole time that's what he was doing.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:05 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

I think that line also convinced Mal of Jayne's character also, but then again Jayne's devious enough to target Mal's weak spot for sentiment...

Static[/] I think you've hit on something. Mal is gaining his faith in others and maybe in a way this giving of a second chance is his defining moment.

I'm going to rewatch the following episodes now so as to see how much Jayne's character towards others' changed... I remember he shares his spoils to the rest of the crew later on.

Cheers for that - always nice to read what others think.

:)

TheSomnambulist

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:05 AM

TAUSETIPRIME

I asked this same question in a previous thread, and I got basically the same answers.

I believe this is more complicated than a simple "because he said what he said", although that is the most direct reason.

I was at DragonCon, and during one of the panels with our BDH's, Nathon said that true remorse was shown in that scene. It does explain a lot, but our good captain is, above all, interested in keeping his boat in the air. Jayne is one of three good fighters (we'll debate shepherd Book's abilities later, ad nauseam I imagine). Jayne is a resource, and generally he is good at what he does. Keeping him around is a risk/benefit question. At least Mal knows where Jayne stands. When you have that kind of understanding of a person, you can easily calculate what his motivations are.

Anyways, Jayne is Adam Baldwin, and he makes a great, likable, and a very important character. Had they killed him off that early, I'm not sure the show would have had as many fans as it did.

They didnt call it the dark ages because it was dark.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:06 AM

WILDHEAVENFARM

In a word, remorse. Jayne's, that is. And the statements "That ain't no way for a man to die" and "Make something up, don't tell 'em what I did," which reveal a greater depth and sincerity in Jayne.

Also, I doubt Mal has stood face-to-face with many of the people he's killed. Shooting down an airship with a .50 or pciking off faceless henchmen at 50 yards leaves you safely isolated from your victims.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:08 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Quote:
Originally posted by Gorramreavers:
I am glad Mal didnt kill Jayne though. Last night I was watching Deadwood (great show on HBO (western) that they are showing the repeats 2 at a time on monday nights) and one of the main characters took a bullet to the back of the brain. That sucked.

Cool! I've not watched that. The only other time I remember watching a show where a character you didn't expect to die does die, was in the first Maimi Vice. I remember being totally shocked when the police chief got it!

Oh and Jesse in Buffy being bitten - but then I think that was obvious. Still cool, but obvious.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:18 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Quote:
Originally posted by TauSetiPrime:
I asked this same question in a previous thread, and I got basically the same answers.

Sorry about that I didn't realise.

Quote:

I believe this is more complicated than a simple "because he said what he said", although that is the most direct reason.

Yes. I agree. Which is why I like Statics answer.

Quote:
I was at DragonCon, and during one of the panels with our BDH's, Nathon said that true remorse was shown in that scene. It does explain a lot, but our good captain is, above all, interested in keeping his boat in the air. Jayne is one of three good fighters (we'll debate shepherd Book's abilities later, ad nauseam I imagine). Jayne is a resource, and generally he is good at what he does. Keeping him around is a risk/benefit question. At least Mal knows where Jayne stands. When you have that kind of understanding of a person, you can easily calculate what his motivations are.

This is true - but at some point you 'd have to way up the risk factor with the difficulties of his unpredictable nature, and nothing lasts for ever. At some point Mal and Jayne are going to have to part, be it on friendly terms or not. I would have thought treachery was one such term.

Quote:

Anyways, Jayne is Adam Baldwin, and he makes a great, likable, and a very important character. Had they killed him off that early, I'm not sure the show would have had as many fans as it did.

Too true. I love Jayne he's one of my favourite characters on TV after the Mayor from Buffy. And Adam Baldwin I've liked since I saw him play a really evil hit man in a film with Roy Sheider, way back in the eighties... Can't remember the title though. But he always has a presence on screen. Plus he has superb comic timing. I'd love to see him do stand up :)

TheSomnambulist

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:19 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

My take is the reason has nothing to do with Jayne and everything to do with Mal.
First, Mal doesn't kill in cold blood. "If I kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed." Killing Jayne that way would have been the cowardly way out.

Second, Mal accepts that's Jayne's nature. Jayne basically admits he'd sell Mal out for enough money in the pilot, Mal knows it and accepts it.

To me, that whole scene was about getting Jayne to admit what he'd done, Mal's attempt to better him if you will. It was never about killing him.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:33 AM

XENOCIDE

Also on the same note. Jayne has learned a lesson (Mal hopes):
J: I got pinched!
M: Which is what happens when you call the feds.

I think Mal could stomach Jayne shooting him in the knee to sell him out to another pirate, but being sold out to the feds was unacceptable. Once Jayne got that particular lesson his two faced nature was a more acceptable risk.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 5:36 AM

PURPLEBELLY

He won't kill you unless he has to
is Zoe's assessment from the cut scene in Serenity

Reynolds doesn't spare Jayne, he spares himself from the killing; for some of the reasons given above, 'tis true.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:24 AM

IAMJACKSUSERNAME

Well, I'm all right. - Mal

Jeez. Just because he sold a still defenseless young girl back to her torturers, and another innocent, Simon; you're saying he should be punished?

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I remember he shares his spoils to the rest of the crew later on.

I'm pretty sure Mal forced him to share them apples. See there's punishment right there.
--
I am Jack's username
Any justice in Firefly? < http://jack.p5.org.uk/about-fiction/ftl-firefly.en.html>

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:41 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Gorramreavers:
... one of the main characters took a bullet to the back of the brain. That sucked.

LOL I know what you mean, they should print history books with spoiler warnings

Still, as the series progresses, just watch all the narrative pathways that open up because of that death.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:58 AM

BYTETHEBULLET

Quote:
Originally posted by IamJacksUsername:
Jeez. Just because he sold a still defenseless young girl back to her torturers, and another innocent, Simon; you're saying he should be punished?

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I remember he shares his spoils to the rest of the crew later on.

I'm pretty sure Mal forced him to share them apples. See there's punishment right there.
--
I am Jack's username
Any justice in Firefly? < http://jack.p5.org.uk/about-fiction/ftl-firefly.en.html>

My feeling is he shared out of guilt...must be the Catholic in me coming out.

ByteTheBullet (-:

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:11 AM

FIREFLYGAL

How about because it wasn't in the script???? (starts ducking from flying objects now being thrown at head)

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:25 AM

GORRAMREAVERS

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gorramreavers:
... one of the main characters took a bullet to the back of the brain. That sucked.
LOL I know what you mean, they should print history books with spoiler warnings Still, as the series progresses, just watch all the narrative pathways that open up because of that death.

Yeah..I find myself waiting for Mondays to come around now I have a couple of episodes under my belt (of Deadwood). It is very well done. Not sure if the actor that plays our main hero is the best actor ever but the actor who plays the main villain is amazing. F*****G C*********S!

"..it is my very favorite gun."

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:38 AM

SHAMBLEAU

I agree with what people have said, Static's analysis in particular. The one probleem I have with what was done in that ep is that it basically neuters Jayne. Joss has stated that they wanted to show Jayne's treachery early on or he would be soon be seen by the audience just as a tough-on-the-outside-soft-on-the-inside, lovable lout. But that's now exactly what has happened since. There's no danger left in Jayne now, no edge. He would NEVER betray them now.

shambleau

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Mercy.

The fact that Jayne cared enough to ask Mal to not tell everyone else what he'd done, coupled w/ Simon's glowing account of how Jayne saved their lives seemingly tipped the scale.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:40 PM

BYTETHEBULLET

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
How about because it wasn't in the script???? (starts ducking from flying objects now being thrown at head)

Remind me to smack you next time I see you!

Weren't you at DragonCon?

ByteTheBullet (-:

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:49 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by ByteTheBullet:
I believe that Jayne saying 'don't tell 'em what I did'(from memory) is what kept him alive.

ByteTheBullet hit it right on the head.

Jayne's obvious remorse over his betrayal was expressed in his plea to Mal:

"Make somethin' up. Don't tell 'em what I done."

To Mal this plea shows that Jayne is not beyond redemption. So long as there is hope for Jayne, Mal will stick by him.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:34 AM

FIREFLYGAL

Quote:
Originally posted by ByteTheBullet:
Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
How about because it wasn't in the script???? (starts ducking from flying objects now being thrown at head)

Remind me to smack you next time I see you!

Weren't you at DragonCon?

ByteTheBullet (-:

I may understand but not comprehend but I certainly won't remind you to hit me at DragonCon 2005

You 'll have to remember all by your lonesome. And yes I was at DragonCon 2004.

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