Is it such a bad thing? by AngusThermopyle

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Is it such a bad thing?

POSTED BY: ANGUSTHERMOPYLE
UPDATED: Thursday, February 3, 2005 09:40
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 17712
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Friday, January 7, 2005 10:30 PM

Zeek wrote:

Quote:
...If a culture decides that gential mutilation is where it's at then that's for them to decide.

Did you proofread that statement? Your internal editor decided to go with that story?! Please tell me you're just trolling, here.

But let's assume you're not, that you're dead serious.

In which case, why stop at cultures that say mutilating a specific group of people is okay? Why not say, "Each Individual has the right to mutilate their own children and wives, and no societal authority -- either external or internal -- has the right to intervene." Of course when I say "Individual", I mean 'Male'. I'm just trying to cloak it in ambiguities, to avoid upsetting the gentlefolk (meaning: 'those whom we seek to subjugate'). But you know what I meant, right? You didn't really even have to consider that I might have been saying, 'person of either sex'; 'male' was assumed.

So, if I feel it's necessary, I should be able to put the clamps on my chattel... er, family... to save them from themselves. And really, it doesn't matter what culture or society I live in. I'm an Individual, and if you don't like the way I live, you should keep your nose where it belongs. Countries, cultures or individuals: it's all the same.

Now, let's say I don't believe in actually taking a knife to my womenfolk, nor bind their feet in tiny little shoes to keep them properly petite (cutely reminiscent of a hog's trotter, btw), nor force them to wear boned corsets drawn with a hand crank 'til they can scarcely breathe (in order to present a proper 13" waistline), nor even ankle-length, long-sleeved, high-necked dresses. I am an American, after all, and a civilized Individual. Still, we know women are not good at analyzing things or being circumspect with finances. As a consequence, when my wife thinks she needs money for something, she must come to me to get it. I then analyze her desired purchase and determine whether or not it's financially sound policy to grant her wish.

Yada-yada, 'I check out my daughter's dates to see if they are appropriate for her'... *cough*bullshit!*sniffle*... 'I take a firm hand with my son, so that he gets a sensible education, rather than just doing things that interest him with no potential for earnings'... Ah-choo!*eatme*... 'My daughter doesn't really need an education; we send her to college to meet potential marriage partners'...

Yes, we in the West are clearly morally superior to all other cultures, regarding Individual freedoms.

But here's the thing: It's wrong. Just because everyone's doing it, in one form or another, all over the world, doesn't make it right. If an Individual -- or an entire culture -- mutilates or in any other way subjugates any portion of its populace based on sex, color, age or creed, it's (say it with me) W-R-O-N-G.

The problem appears to be, these days, that people are just too lily-livered to say it out loud... Never know who you might offend. Well, I say the Emperor is naked, and if any of the above footwear fits you: Wear it.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Ummm, by the bye: I musta missed the news flash wherein we reportedly invaded a sovereign African nation to save the clitorises and vaginae. And that's the kind of story that normally pricks my ears up, too, on the CNN Headline News-muzak display... Somebody got a link for the invasion?

P.P.S.
I'm sure glad I'm a male, er, individual. Every time I fantasize about a female-dominated society, gone to the lengths our male-dominated one has, I picture men wearing fashionably revealing trousers, facial makeup on depilated faces, and going shirtless a lot (although the female Individuals might insist we wear something over our nipples, for our own protection, of course).
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Friday, January 7, 2005 11:32 PM

FIREFLYFAN23

Quote:
Originally posted by Willowy:
.
Read up

I find this hiliarious, read up read up you say read up on what?, those propaganda articles on buffy.nu, moronic posts by 14 year olds who say that buffy is their favourite show, even more favourite then one tree hill or the oc.

read UP READ UP, are you trying to say you should base your opinion on something based on whats written about it on a website. Let me tell you something anything wriiten by anyone is just their personal opinion nothing more. you have a opinion too you know i sugest you use it.

I am in tears after reading that, i had to skip all the way to the bottom of the page to reply so i don't know what zoids talking about, but i'm sure its brilliant.

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 3:17 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

P.P.S.
... Every time I fantasize about a female-dominated society, gone to the lengths our male-dominated one has, I picture men wearing fashionably revealing trousers, facial makeup on depilated faces, and going shirtless a lot (although the female Individuals might insist we wear something over our nipples, for our own protection, of course).

Sounds like an episode from season 2...

That guy, working electric, he never drank with us!

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 5:35 AM

WILLOWY

Are you drunk?

I'm talking about books. You know, those things with paper pages? The printed word.

Essayists and reviewers and authors of great stature and reputation have published countless tomes in praise of BtVS and Angel. Some of the best being "Bite Me" by Nikki Stafford, "Slayer", by Keith Topping, and "Seven Seasons of Buffy", a book of essays edited by Glenn Yeffeth.

There have also been college courses on BtVS, and philosophical think tanks discussing Buffy's impact on popular culture.

That's just scratching the surface. Do your own research if you want to know more.

If you think that BtVS is just for '14 year old fangirls' then you don't know anything at all. Buy or rent seasons 1 AND 2, watch them, then come back when you have something to say. I guarantee your tone will have changed.

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 3:25 PM

REEQUEEN

Zed:

Okay, so I've been giggling a lot over stuff I've found on various sites, not all related, so my saying your post made me choke on my Pepsi may not be that big a deal.

However, the frequency of my laughter, accompanied by nothing but keystrokes, is beginnig to alarm my family and cats.

I may have to stop the Norco, just so I can get through something like your post without inhaling a carbonated beverage up my nose.

Thanks in advance for taking my state of mind into consideration,
Ree.....

Um, yeah. Sorry. Did I say that out loud?

Quote:
Now, let's say I don't believe in actually taking a knife to my womenfolk, nor bind their feet in tiny little shoes to keep them properly petite (cutely reminiscent of a hog's trotter, btw), nor force them to wear boned corsets drawn with a hand crank 'til they can scarcely breathe (in order to present a proper 13" waistline), nor even ankle-length, long-sleeved, high-necked dresses.

As counter-examples, my son has discovered body piercing. I saw one of those HBO shows, Real Sex, wherein an adult (American) female bound her feet - Chinese Style (as opposed to Idle Hands Style) - for self-titillation. And until you've seen ballet boots, the words "self torture" have no meaning. I used to wear a corset to my favourite Goth Clubs, until I noticed everybody (male, female, whatever) was wearing them. So passe (and I'd add the accent acute, but I skipped that part of my HTML self-teaching, besides which I don't think it'd work here. Would it?).

Quote:
But here's the thing: It's wrong. Just because everyone's doing it, in one form or another, all over the world, doesn't make it right. If an Individual -- or an entire culture -- mutilates or in any other way subjugates any portion of its populace based on sex, color, age or creed, it's (say it with me) W-R-O-N-G.

But it's such a hard leap to make: hurting people = wrong. I mean, geez....

Quote:
The problem appears to be, these days, that people are just too lily-livered to say it out loud... Never know who you might offend. Well, I say the Emperor is naked, and if any of the above footwear fits you: Wear it.

I really only want to wear footwear that consists of thigh-high purple velvet boots (when I find/make/steal or conjure them), with a flat heel because I have no sense of balance.

Offending people is sometimes the only thing that works. It gets attention (and I'm not talking about the personal attention I missed from my mother, high school class mates and several men I've dated, although that's good too, but attention on the problem), and has the added bonus of venting steam. I have a theory that most people who believe in the whole non-interference with/whole acceptance of other "cultures" thing (no matter what that culture does to the people who live with it), or any other bald-faced silliness, aren't really going to change their minds, anyway, no matter how reasoned, calm, or persuasive anyone is. I realize this is mostly just my excuse to, well, rant every once in a while, but there ya go.

Quote:
P.S.
Ummm, by the bye: I musta missed the news flash wherein we reportedly invaded a sovereign African nation to save the clitorises and vaginae. And that's the kind of story that normally pricks my ears up, too, on the CNN Headline News-muzak display... Somebody got a link for the invasion?

www.itwillneverhappen.tu

....Anybody else feeling like the posting/cgi box is too small? I'm starting to feel claustrophobic, writing all these long, long, loooonnnggg, posts, all cramped up here in this wee thing. I need space to roam, man....Um...yeah....

"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 5:26 PM

FIREFLYFAN23

Quote:
Originally posted by Willowy:

I'm talking about books. You know, those things with paper pages? The printed word.

Essayists and reviewers and authors of great stature and reputation have published countless tomes in praise of BtVS and Angel. There have also been college courses on BtVS, and philosophical think tanks discussing Buffy's impact on popular culture.

.

lol

Let me tell you something all those BOOKS that you read. They are only one persons personal opinion, theres no definite opinion to have on Buffy. The only thing that is important is what you pesonaly think of it, nothing else.

Oh and please stop acting like your intelligent because you read books, i don't care how many books you have read you won't get my respect untill you write your own book.

But i know that will never happen as your nothing more then a sheep who needs other people to tell you what to think.

ps. zoid get off my back i don't like you any more and have taken you off my chrismas card mailing list.

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 6:34 PM

REEQUEEN

FireflyFan23:

Quote:
Let me tell you something all those BOOKS that you read. They are only one persons personal opinion, theres no definite opinion to have on Buffy. The only thing that is important is what you pesonaly think of it, nothing else.

*Ahem* In reality, the books, essays, think tanks, committees, workshops, and more have been done on the subject, and I'm sure more will be done on the subject. http://www.slayage.tv/pages/Slayage/slayagearchive.htm

These opinions you find so personal have actually reached a consensus as to the worth and worthiness of BtVS, Angel, and Firefly. So, not so much personal opinions anymore.

Of course, there is no definitive opinion on BtVS, Angel, or Firefly, except that most critics believe Joss Whedon &c. have provided watchable, worthwhile, television over a good many years. Some philosophers, ethicists, educators, pundits, and followers of popular culture have based quite interesting little philosophical sub-genres on these productions.

I personally find it all a bit much, because I think reading that deeply into popular entertainment is kinda silly. That's just my opinion, and, unlike those I mentioned above, I don't make any money off it. Yet.

"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 7:16 PM

WILLOWY

If I needed other people to tell me what to think, I wouldn't be a Whedon fan.

People who enjoy BtVS and Joss' two other shows are usually thoughtful, insightful people. You could take a page or two from THAT type of book.

Thank you Reequeen for your addition to what I was trying to get across to this moron in as few words as possible. He wouldn't last 5 minutes at Whedonesque.

Where's Keith T. when you need him?

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 8:35 PM

PBI

It's wierd, because I never liked early Buffy or Angel, and only really started to like either show in the later seasons as things got 'heavier' and 'preachier'. Must mean I'm a heretic, I guess ;)

I also think that Firefly would have benefitted greatly from another 2-3 year run at least before any worry of a slide would have crept in.

In an ironic twist, I, too, never knew Joss was behind Firefly, not until I was hooked. That's a good thing, because had I know the person behind Buffy and Angel (which I only started sort of watching after Firefly) had been behind Our Great Series, I most likely would not have watched, thinking, based on Joss' other work, that it would be far too campy. Thank God for wonderful ignorance ;)

If you can survive death, you can probably survive almost anything.

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 9:57 PM

ZOID

Willowy:

I wouldn't worry too much about fireflyfan23. I get the sneaking suspicion that he's got multiple personalities on this board, and all of them got an F in the 'works and plays well with others' section of their report card. ff23 wrote:

Quote:
...But i know that will never happen as your nothing more then a sheep who needs other people to tell you what to think...

(Emphasis on 'sheep' mine)

The use of the term 'sheep' to denigrate others has been done here before. I think it's too close to AngusThermopyle's use of the same term to be strictly coincidental. Read thread 'Sheep, baaaaaaah, baaah bah!' which has now been moved to Troll Country, and see if you see the same similarities I do. So until proven otherwise, I'm just gonna assume that fireflyfan23, AngusThermopyle and MyNameisJonas (earlier troll who got his ears pinned back) are one and the same person.

It should be noted that the personalities are too similar to be considered 'split'; it's one guy, socially maladjusted, but in an ultimately harmless way, with (at least) three different user names on this board.

So, I wouldn't worry about him. Ignore the sh*t out of him, is what I'd advise; especially since his arguments mostly consist of negation of your position. (Scene from Monty Python: "This isn't an argument." "Yes, it is!" "No it isn't; it's only contradiction." "No it's not!" et cetera.)

Some people are misfits because they don't want to fit in. Personally, I think it's an inferiority complex: They can't get past the feeling that they're not good enough to associate with 'normal people' (even though every person is 'good enough', just as they are). So they preemptively treat others with the disdain they fear they would be treated with, should the others ever see the 'real' them. "Normal people are sheep" really means "They have companionship I cannot have". Misfits of this type need to just relax and be themselves, warts and all. As long as they don't alienate others (out of fear of being rejected themselves), and learn to trust that most human beings enjoy associating with one another, they'll find that their fellow humans are actually broadly accepting of other viewpoints.

But you've gotta rely on the kindness of strangers, and it's tough to overcome that entrenched paranoia...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Please note the entry 'former painful introvert' on my Profile page. I've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt...
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Saturday, January 8, 2005 10:13 PM

FIREFLYFAN23

Holy shit zoid, just because i used the word sheep you say i have a multiple pesonality, all i meant by calling willowy a sheep was by how she was saying something was good because other people say it. If thats not a sheep please tell me what is.

i have no idea who angusthermopyle is and i only posted in mynameis jonas thread because i found your posts different from others an i wanted you to stay that doesn't make me him.

Judging from all that phycobabble you obviously have problems zoid. Please don't drag me down with you to try and make yourself feel better.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:16 AM

WILLOWY

My thoughts exactly, zoid. And I was suspicious that 'Angus' hadn't posted back to any of these thoughts as well...

Too bad you aren't a mod. You seem to have the knack for it!

Ignored he shall be. And thank you for the support!

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 1:02 PM

ZOID

Willowy replied:

Quote:
...And thank you for the support!

Avec plaisir, amie. I've got a real problem with those who 'animalize' others, dehumanizing them by calling them 'sheep', 'cows', 'pigs', etc. It's hateful. I also have a problem with people who attack others without provocation; especially, males who attack females. I'm old-fashioned that way. Please forgive my antiquated notions of chivalry.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 4:07 PM

FIREFLYFAN23

you no what zoid i have a real problem with you calling me angus just because i used the word sheep.

Sheep is a pretty freaking common word you know, i just went and read some of anguses posts and our styles are completely different.
I would of thought you would pick up on that, but i guess your not as smart as you think you are.

You can say calling her a sheep is insulting, but you can't say its not true, don't act like you have won this argument i'm correct.

ps. I find you saying i have a inferiority complex and multible personality disorder,
Then everyone believing you because you write long paragraphs with lots of obscure refrences. far more insulting then been called a sheep.

pps. she called me a moron arn't you going to come to my rescue with a 3 poage post about your cat or something.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:01 PM

ZOID

fireflyfan23:

Since you asked a fair question:

You felt insulted. How did that make you feel? Good? Here's another "phycobabble" term: Compassion. That's where you consider another person's feelings. Utilizing this newfound concept, how do you think you made Willowy feel when you called her a 'sheep'?

You're right: I really didn't mistake you for AngusThermopyle. I was just lumping y'all together under the general label of 'troll', similar to the way y'all lump people together as 'sheep', for effect. Perhaps I should stick to the animal theme, though, when unfairly labeling you. How about, "Jackass"?

It's a "pretty freaking common word", which should make it acceptable and not insulting, according to your argument...

Getting out the can opener,

zoid

P.S.
Willowy did indeed call you a moron, but only after you said:

Quote:
I find this hiliarious, read up read up you say read up on what?, those propaganda articles on buffy.nu, moronic posts by 14 year olds who say that buffy is their favourite show...

...and continuing invective. She was directing her 'read up' remarks at AngusT, and you stuck your nose in and attacked her. Therefore, I cannot defend you against the enthusiastically pro-Buffy lady, since she acted in self-defense. Even one of my infamous "3 poage" posts about my cat won't make you right. Later, much.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 8:48 PM

FIREFLYFAN23

wow congratulations on completly missing the point of every single one of my arguments zoid.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
fireflyfan23:
Since you asked a fair question:
You felt insulted. How did that make you feel? Good? Here's another "phycobabble" term: Compassion. That's where you consider another person's feelings. Utilizing this newfound concept, how do you think you made Willowy feel when you called her a 'sheep'

Hopefully she relised that she was in fact a sheep and decided to use her own judgement from now on instead of someone elses.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
You're right: I really didn't mistake you for AngusThermopyle. I was just lumping y'all together under the general label of 'troll',

What are you talking about you straight out accused me of being the same person as angus and mynameisjonas.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
It's a "pretty freaking common word", which should make it acceptable and not insulting, according to your argument...[/

all as I meant was that lots of people use that word so just because someone says sheep, it doesn't make them me.

Quote:

P.S.
Willowy did indeed call you a moron, but only after you said:
Quote:
I find this hiliarious, read up read up you say read up on what?, those propaganda articles on buffy.nu, moronic posts by 14 year olds who say that buffy is their favourite show

I diddn't mean she was a moronic 14 year old girl i was talking about people on other sites.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 11:32 AM

MALICIOUS

Oh, Zoid, I am STILL laughing at that! The "3 poage" post about your cat! How is the other Little Cat, by the way?

Mal-licious

Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell

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Monday, January 10, 2005 12:41 PM

ZOID

'Lishus:

She -- 'Little Little' -- just won't leave me alone! I have never had such an affectionate feline. She keeps bringing me 'presents': Half-chewed field mice, mostly. Which is a good thing, I suppose, since the wintry weather we've been getting lately has been driving the critters into our garage. Still, she could just kill 'em and leave 'em where they drop, rather than bringing them into the house in her mouth and depositing them at my feet, sometimes only half-dead. I'm sure it's all very devotional by cat behavioral standards; but I'd just as soon she be a little more standoffish, like a stereotypical cat.

There's no such thing as sitting alone on the sofa. If I'm watching TV, I'm doing it with a cat on my lap, or on my chest, or wrapped around my neck. Frankly, it's a little spooky. I sometimes catch her staring at me, and it's like maybe she's an old girlfriend reincarnated as a cat. Imagination run wild, I know; but I've just never seen a cat get so attached to a human...

There's a trick to getting a cat to imprint on you: When they're kittens, you pet them around the head and shoulders, between the ears -- and you should refrain from petting below the shoulders because their spines are sensitive. If you've done it right, the kitten will work up a good drool, and may even have its mouth open slightly, as though it was smiling. Cats have scent glands in their mouths and this 'smiling' is indicative of them scenting their territory. Either smiling or drooling ('cause they want their mommy to feed them), you now gently grasp them by the head and rub your cheeks against their mouth. They may resist this somewhat, but just press on -- gently! -- and rub both cheeks against their mouth and then release them. It sounds bizarre, I know, but that cat becomes imprinted on you and is yours 'til death do you part.

Like any other magic, this charm should be used sparingly, and only once you're certain the cat is worth having (some cats are useless, sad to say). And I admit it's a pretty callous means of getting an animal to serve you; but every house should have a good backyard lion and a house wolf (preferably, a GSD) to keep varmints away.

So, in conclusion, I think everyone should be able to see why fireflyfan23 was right to call Willowy a 'sheep', because she is a sheep (Merino, I think). I'm disappointed in all the rest of us for not seeing it sooner, because we could have all had new jumpers this winter.

Cattily,

zoid

P.S.
*zoid gently massages the other Little Cat's ears, and lightly rubs cheeks with her*

P.P.S.
The cold, hard truth is that 'Little Little' owns me, not the other way around. But, I can live with that.

_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Monday, January 10, 2005 1:23 PM

ZEEK

Good thing I checked back in on this thread I guess.

Yes, there was a typo in one of my posts.

No, it was not meant to be trolling.

For the record I'm circumsised. Do you consider my parents monsters?

I see no reason why we should assume that any of us here are superior and deserve to decide right and wrong for the world.

Hurting others = wrong huh? I wish I had you on my side when I was getting immunization shots as a kid. I really didn't like the pain of those needles. Since it's wrong I assume you're out on the streets picketing and writing to congress to ban syringes. Or did you decide that this pain is ok because you have come to accept the result as being good? Amazing how a culture can teach people such things isn't it? I have no reason to believe that other cultures couldn't do the same. Which is why I'm glad we haven't invaded any South African countries to impose our will on their genital mutilation practices. Kudos to the USA.

I do understand that the children who undergo these operations may not be capable of making their own informed decision at the time. Neither was I as a child. Now that I've grown up some I learned the reasoning behind choices my parents made for me. If I didn't believe in them, I would try to prevent my potential future children from undergoing the same treatment. If I felt it was a complete outrage, I might even fight to stop the practice all together. That's how change is supposed to work in my book.

Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from. At least enough to understand that I'm not trying to get you riled up.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 1:43 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Just 'cos I'm concerned Zoid'll wear himself out...

I have no cats to use I'm afraid, though I once owned a hamster. It died.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

For the record I'm circumsised. Do you consider my parents monsters?

See that mark over there? See that hole in the post waaaaaayyyy over yonder. That's how far you missed the point of the argument. One's mutilation, the other has proven medical benefits (ignoring any religious connection).

Quote:

Hurting others = wrong huh? I wish I had you on my side when I was getting immunization shots as a kid. I really didn't like the pain of those needles.

Wow. Didn't think you could get any wider of the mark, but you raised the bar on this one. I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago. Medical benefit.

But I guess if we increased the infant mortality rates we'd decrease the surplus population, which in turn would probably lead to a lesser life expectancy as we started getting all the funky diseases back again, which in turn would ease the pension burden. Hey, I like your thinking, can you give W a ring with your ideas?

You're comparing apples with elephants. We (the civilised West) used to burn and dunk women for being witches. In Iran they recently paused stoning to death a woman that committed adultery. The man that she committed it with; he was due to be hanged.

Sometimes wrong is just wrong, and the culture excuse is just so much bull

.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Monday, January 10, 2005 1:52 PM

ZOID

Zeek:

I can see where you're just trying to be reasonable, respectful of the cultural heritage of other peoples whose worldview differs from Judeo-Christian mores, and I appreciate that. I really do. Different is not intrinsically Wrong, just different. So, that's a good point, okay?

But comparing an innoculation -- no matter how big the needle -- to cutting a child's clitoris off and then sewing her vagina shut?

C'mon. Hate to say it, but that dog just won't hunt...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Kudos to the USA for overstepping its bounds and stopping Germany's practice of incinerating Jews, rather than waiting for German society to decide it was wrong. (EDIT: We had cohorts in that heinous invasion of German culture, but I won't implicate them. As an American, I'll step up and take all the blame.)

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Monday, January 10, 2005 2:03 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Kudos to the USA for overstepping its bounds and stopping Germany's practice of incinerating Jews, rather than waiting for German society to decide it was wrong.

Less kudos to the UK and the USA for ignoring it for far too long though. If there's any lesson from history that we still don't learn, its to have the guts to step in soon enough - Rwanda being one of the most obvious examples.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Monday, January 10, 2005 2:12 PM

ZEEK

Apparently my point wasn't obvious enough. We believe that medical benefit is worth some pain. They believe preventing adultary is worth some pain. (or so it sounds. I really don't know their motives or beliefs.) It's different values.

As for World War II I don't think the attempted genocide against the jews had anything to do with our invasion. Germany was invading other countries and was a potential threat to the USA if they continued unchecked. The Pearl Harbor thing helped a bit too. Ending the holocaust was merely a side effect.

Really the point is this isn't cut and dry. There is no black and white here and I think we both know it. So I don't see any need for the use of capslock. Maybe I never mentioned it, but I don't believe that the genital mutilation being performed is right. Just wanted to make sure I'm clear on that point.

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Monday, January 10, 2005 2:14 PM

REEQUEEN

Quote:
For the record I'm circumsised. Do you consider my parents monsters?

Depends on how you view circumcision, which for men does not have quite the same physical consequences as female genital mutilation does for women.

Do you remember your circumcision? Did you know that doctors anaesthetize the baby's foreskin before they circumcise? Or was your circumcision a religious thing?

Did you get an infection? Does it affect your sexuality? Does it make urination and menstruation painful? The first time you had sex, did your circumcision cause you to be either ripped or cut open, and to bleed copiously?

Quote:
I see no reason why we should assume that any of us here are superior and deserve to decide right and wrong for the world.

Not superior, just aghast at what we see as the torture and mutilation of young girls.

Quote:
I wish I had you on my side when I was getting immunization shots as a kid.

Conflating FGM with getting shots is disingenuous at best, wilfully ignorant at most. How does immunizing children against getting sick (check history, come back when you know about rubella, whooping cough, and other childhood disease epidemics before immunization), equate with the cutting off of a girl's clitoris and labia, and sewing her vulva up?

Do we really have to qualify the statement "hurt = wrong" with "except when it benefits more than it hurts?" It really doesn't say much for the level of discourse, or your side of the argument, when inherent assumptions have to be spelled out every single time someone wants to make a point, or even just vent.

Quote:
I really didn't like the pain of those needles.

Too darn bad. Most of us went through it. A lot of us are unlucky enough to remember it.

Of course, getting an injection is a matter of comparison, isn't it? I'd say having my very sensitive bits cut off would hurt a hell of a lot more, although I've been fortunate enough to escape that fate.

Quote:
Since it's wrong I assume you're out on the streets picketing and writing to congress to ban syringes.

So, what about diabetic children? All that testing, all those needles. Do we need a crusade for them, too? You start the movement, I'll join in when I lose some of my higher reasoning functions.

Quote:
Or did you decide that this pain is ok because you have come to accept the result as being good?

"Come to accept?" Come to accept the virtual eradication of certain illnesses because of immunization? Are you comparing the health of many with the torture of the sharp, stinging sensation of being immunized?

Quote:
Amazing how a culture can teach people such things isn't it?

Yep. I'm glad I've been immunized, no matter how distasteful I find needles. I'm glad I never had the measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, smallpox, or tetanus.

Quote:
I do understand that the children who undergo these operations may not be capable of making their own informed decision at the time. Neither was I as a child.

So, you'd rather take the risk of contracting a disease that, what with our lack of immunity to germs now that everything is so antibacterial and antiseptic, would probably kill you in ten days, rather than have undergone the pain, the horror, the terrible mutilation forced upon you by your parents of that tiny little needle?

I'm glad my parents had me get the shots. I'm glad I've never been fatally ill with a common bug, and I'm really very happy about my tuberculosis scar. It means I won't ever get tuberculosis, and that's worth the prick.

Oh, by the way, I got the tuberculosis test and innoculation because my family emigrated to New Zealand - that country's government required emigres to be innoculated against tuberculosis when coming from the United States. I'm glad they "interfered" with the "culture" I was coming from. Saved me from spreading anything around, or from eventually coughing up a lung.

Comparing immunization to being castrated is, despite what your caveat implied, tatamount to getting everybody "riled up." Immunization is simple, FGM is not. A needle in your arm does not even come close to having the main nerve of sexual sensation cut off. Clearly you've never been kicked in the bits (or, in my case, fallen on the bar of a bicycle), because you wouldn't speak so lightly about that kind of pain.

On another note entirely:
I'm a Poll Dorset sheep, and proud of it.

(edited because I took way too long to write the above)

Quote:
Apparently my point wasn't obvious enough. We believe that medical benefit is worth some pain. They believe preventing adultary is worth some pain. (or so it sounds. I really don't know their motives or beliefs.) It's different values.

First of all, there is no medical benefit to female castration. Second of all, preventing adultery can be done in so many other, nonharmful ways. Like, respect, love, and all that gooey stuff. Thirdly, I don't have to respect "different values" if those values are so completely out of whack with the humane treatment of everybody.

Quote:
Really the point is this isn't cut and dry. There is no black and white here and I think we both know it.

Actually, it is that cut and dried - mutilating little girls for the benefit of their future husbands, is wrong. That's really all there is to it.

"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi

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Monday, January 10, 2005 2:37 PM

ZOID

Misguided By Voices responded:

Quote:
Less kudos to the UK and the USA for ignoring it for far too long though...

Hmmm. Well, it was a different world. There is still serious question regarding how much the rest of the world knew about the Final Solution. There were certainly whispers circulating that atrocities were taking place. But the official line is that sHitler was pretty good at keeping secrets, and spycraft at the time wasn't nearly as sophisticated as it is today (and we have recent results to prove it's not as good today as it's cracked up to be).

Quote:
If there's any lesson from history that we still don't learn, its to have the guts to step in soon enough - Rwanda being one of the most obvious examples.

Unfortunately for all concerned, it just doesn't work that way, does it? Step 1: You've got to float the concept that it's a basic human right not to have one's genitals sawn off past the obstructed intestine that is the United Nations, half the member nations of which think carnal knowledge of a goat is okay. Step 2: You've got to run the gauntlet of sanctions and subsequent extensions to allow compliance, then delays while trying to certify compliance, then new extensions because compliance couldn't be confirmed because the inspectors got their heads cut off, ad infinitum. Step 3: After 13 years of people continuing to get chopped up in a culturally acceptable way, and still no resolution in sight, you say, 'bugger this for a lark' and just go in and stop it, while the entire world calls you a criminal.

It's the American Way...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
God Save the Queen, and bless her People. Not implicating anything, mind you; I'm just sayin'...

P.P.S.
Never vote for me for President. The first thing I'd do is kick the UN off our property, take a pair of scissors to our membership card and tell 'em to stop sending us the monthly newsletter.
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Monday, January 10, 2005 11:15 PM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
As for World War II I don't think the attempted genocide against the jews had anything to do with our invasion. Germany was invading other countries and was a potential threat to the USA if they continued unchecked. The Pearl Harbor thing helped a bit too. Ending the holocaust was merely a side effect.

The US didn't join WWII because the Germans were invading other countries. If that'd been the case, they would've joined in 1939 when Britain declared a state of war between her and Germany following Germany's invasion of Poland. The US didn't give a toss about Germany annexing other countries until Japan joined and made things a little more uncomfortable. America joined because of Pearl Harbour and for no other reason.

Britain had been trying to get America to join for 3 years, but America would only sell her weaponry and equipment (at full prices with interest that had to be paid in full and took 20 or so years).

Then, years later, the Falklands are invaded by Argentina. Britain sends a taskforce to take them back. America will have no part of it, France sells Argentina Exocet missiles and trains them (in secret and against UN articles) to shoot British planes down, even during the conflict.

Later again, the US invade Afghanistan after 9/11. Britain is asked for help and stands shoulder to shoulder with the US.

When Dubya Bush decides he wants to take on the Iraqis too, Britain are right there in the front lines. Even in some cases right in the insurrenction, when US troops can't put it down. The British expertise with terrorism and Northern Ireland was of great use and even helped Bush secure a second term when soldiers of the Black Watch regiment were sent to Falluja so that Bush didn't have the bad headlines expected.

The special relationship. Can anyone explain that to me?

You learn history from books, not Jerry Bruckheimer...

May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:31 AM

ZEEK

OK ReeQueen, apparently my point with the immunization thing wasn't clear enough.

I totally understand the reasoning for immunization and I believe the pain of a needle is worth it. There are two points though. 1.) I was too young to care at that point. I just didn't want to get a painful shot. So, I won't assume children around that age are going to be able to make a decision about painful proceedures. 2.) Is that obviously from some of the responses, we have totally excepted immunization shots into our accepted culture and find it obsurd to even consider not immunizing children. The parallels are right there in the open. South African culture might view their practices the same way. It may be painful but the result far outweighs the pain. I don't know for sure that this is how they view things but it's possible. So telling them that they are being barbaric just because we don't weigh the effects the same way they do may sound crazy to them.

This argument isn't going to go anywhere though. It seems that you are 100% decided and no other points of view are going to matter. So we might as well drop it.

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:45 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The special relationship. Can anyone explain that to me?

Its as the old brother to the younger sibling who is outstripping him in what was his sporting/academic achievements - with a mixture of pride and pathos, pointing out the stumbles he made in the hopes that they will not be repeated.

Then again, we know how much siblings listen to each other...

Long may it reign. I don't necessarily agree with Blair's unstinting support for the War, but I understand why he felt he had to risk falling on his sword politically to maintain the special relationship, and having had that ephiphany (for a life long Tory it takes some doing), I find myself respecting him in some ways.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:47 PM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The special relationship. Can anyone explain that to me?

Its as the old brother to the younger sibling who is outstripping him in what was his sporting/academic achievements - with a mixture of pride and pathos, pointing out the stumbles he made in the hopes that they will not be repeated.

Then again, we know how much siblings listen to each other...

Long may it reign. I don't necessarily agree with Blair's unstinting support for the War, but I understand why he felt he had to risk falling on his sword politically to maintain the special relationship, and having had that ephiphany (for a life long Tory it takes some doing), I find myself respecting him in some ways.

"I threw up on your bed"

Personally, I'd rather be allied with America that Europe. I certainly don't want to be in the EU and when we finally get a reforendum (spell?) that is worded fairly and specifically, I'll vote for us to get out.

I'm not a supporter of any political party, personally. I voted UKIP in the last locals. However, I won't vote for them again with Kilroy "cover me in cowshit" Silk trying to get the leadership. I'll probably vote Tory in the general this year, not because I like them - they seem to be going backwards to the 80s - rather as a tactical vote to help bring down Labours majority in the House. I live in a Lib Dem area - and they'd sell us straight out to Europe...

I just put the previous message coz it really gets up my nose when Americans speak about winning the war and you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for us... etc etc. I wish they'd stop getting their history from Hollywood.

I hate to think what Zeek will make of Churchill: The Hollywood Years. Probably think it's a documentary.

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Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:40 PM

DBLADE

Zeek. I think your problem with getting anyone to agree with you is that your comparisons are completely off. You are not comparing apples to apples, and not even comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to hand grenades. The only thing comparable to female genital mutilation is a man getting the head of his penis chopped off.
Now every man who thinks this would be okay even in the name of culture, raise your hand.

Anyone?

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 11:37 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The US didn't join WWII because the Germans were invading other countries. If that'd been the case, they would've joined in 1939 when Britain declared a state of war between her and Germany following Germany's invasion of Poland. The US didn't give a toss about Germany annexing other countries until Japan joined and made things a little more uncomfortable. America joined because of Pearl Harbour and for no other reason.

That's quite true. Nothing like an attack on our own soil to make us wake up and say "HEY! DON'T DO THAT!"

There are others who would argue that we were biding our time, waiting for the right moment. We were burned pretty badly by WWI and the country was not enthusiastic about going to war. FDR wanted us in sooner, and used Pearl Harbor as the excuse.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 12:45 PM

BRITCHICK

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
We were burned pretty badly by WWI

Erm, I'm probably going to regret interjecting here, and I know this sounds like I'm starting a childish p*ssing contest over war casualties...that really isn't my intention

Did you realize that the losses for the USA in WW1 were between 50,000 and 100,000 (sources differ). Britain & Empire (not my choice of term,that's the official reference for this info) 1 million; France & Empire - 1.3 million; even Italy lost 500,000.

I'm not trying to dismiss your losses and say you guys weren't burnt pretty badly. 50,000 - 100,000 deaths is horrific, a number that is so large it is hard to really appreciate just what that means.

I guess itjust grated a bit when I read that part of your comment Channain. Please don't take this as a flame or anything, 'tisn't meant that way.

*britchick adopts the brace position and covers head with hands*

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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 1:18 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by britchick:
Did you realize that the losses for the USA in WW1 were between 50,000 and 100,000 (sources differ). Britain & Empire (not my choice of term,that's the official reference for this info) 1 million; France & Empire - 1.3 million; even Italy lost 500,000.

I'm not trying to dismiss your losses and say you guys weren't burnt pretty badly. 50,000 - 100,000 deaths is horrific, a number that is so large it is hard to really appreciate just what that means.

I guess it just grated a bit when I read that part of your comment Channain. Please don't take this as a flame or anything, 'tisn't meant that way.

*britchick adopts the brace position and covers head with hands*

Oh stop it! I haven't smacked anyone yet. Unless it was for fun, of course

It's a fact, US losses were not nearly as tremendous. I can't dispute that and would never try to. But we were in a different place in those days and psychologially the country was hit pretty hard. I think the thing was that we didn't ever want to be in the position that the rest of the world was. A short-sighted view? Definitely. But it was the lack of popular public support that kept us out of WWII for so long. That, too was unfortunate. But the quote from the Japanese officer "I fear we have only awoken a sleeping giant," is true.

I often wonder, had we gotten into it sooner what the outcome would have been.

The rumor also goes that FDR knew about the Japanese attack well ahead of time and could have prepared our forces to receive it. Only he didn't because THAT is how badly he wanted to get into the war. In the end, WWII pulled us out of the Depression, so he comes up smelling like a rose. Ironic, don't you think?

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
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Wednesday, February 2, 2005 3:15 PM

P1NKISPUNK

Well I actually was stupid and lazy and only read the first two or three posts and then posted a reply, so this post now actually makes no sense in the context of the thread as it has developed - but I kinda like a few of the points I made

I've been struggling with this in my mind for a while now. The question is whether it is fair to criticise Joss, or rather bite the hand that feeds so many of us posting here, (well I'm usually a lurker but meh.)

After reading reviews of Angel, Buffy and Firefly on the television without pity site (which Nathan himself mentioned in a post which brought it to my attention) I had extremely mixed feelings. The reviews were deeply critical and mean at some points, but deeply funny at other points and in the Angel reviews some credit was given. They were unessecarily mean to Firefly though (the best of Whedon in my opinion.)

Someone posted somewhere (I forget) that they had protested about people being critical of Joss, while at the same time being avid fans of his work, and the reply was "I judge Joss on a much higher standards than anything else," which seemed like a very valid point to me.

Joss is incredible - but actually suprisingly human. When on the tiny far between occasions he has disappointed some people (never disappointing everyone) he has always been subject to scathing attacks that I find really really mean. (I don't mean by people here, just in general over the years.) I remember Jewel posting and thanking someone for defending her after a rude comment about her made by some famous guy describing her character "smiling idiotically" and saying that often people don't realise who's lurking.

However I'm not saying we should hide our disappointments about things he (maybe not even him, we assume its the show runner who is in control of EVERYTHING automatically) because I'm sure he might like an honest fan reaction. Overall I think any criticism should be constructive rather than just a simple moan. There is much firefly praise here, but say someone comes here and just clicks on a "what didn't you like about firefly" and just sees chockabloack criticism? There are a few things I didn't like, but the good inifinitely outweighs the bad, and I praise that man every day!

(Just my opinion)

"Okay...I'm confused...I'm angry and I'm armed"

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 6:51 AM

ANGUSTHERMOPYLE

Personally, I think Jewel is totally adorable and the smile is important to her character. She's an optimist. People who usually object to other people who are like that are usually jaded, bitter and probably don't like themselves too much.

What's so wrong with actually liking life and enjoying other people with no preconceptions. Life would be a hell of a lot less like hell if we could all become like that.

And I'm a very cynical person, so Jewel must've done a good job.

I wasn't happy about the way she was introduced in Out Of Gas, but then I'm old enough to be her father and felt protective of her as much as fancying her lol. Damn, where'd I put me teeth

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 7:37 AM

BELASERA

Quote:

I love this random, made-up statistic you've got there. 90% of what? Your girlfriend, your mom and your sister?

When the Taliban was in power, women who were raped were stoned to death for committing adultery.

In Thailand, as soon as poor girls hit puberty they are sold into sex slavery, often to Chinese husbands. Those Chinese men often exist only because their parents aborted their sisters, since they are only allowed to have one child and girls are undesirable.

In Nigeria, women are castrated to prevent them from enjoying sex, and therefore making adultery unlikely.

And in Europe, America, and every other place on earth, Wives and daughters are still beaten daily. In my class, the women who aren't virgins are chastized as sluts but the boys are applauded as players. And this is after great improvements all over the world. We can vote now. There is a whole world of people outside your house.

Buffy encourages girls to look at themselves as powerful figures, not to be abused or looked on as meek supporters of their male counterparts.

So now you know one person who thinks the feminist issue is interesting and appealing. It's really a shame you don't know more.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

Yes. Yes, Yes, Yes! Feminism is 'Really Real.' Kudos to any TV show willing to prtray it, without guile. Feminism is integral to Buffy, it's in its very fiber, Buffy cannot be 'too feminist'.
"I'll be in my bunk."

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 8:49 AM

BRITCHICK

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Oh stop it! I haven't smacked anyone yet. Unless it was for fun, of course

:-) I know Channain.... but this thread in general was pretty full with the personal attacks, ehich made me kinda nervous.

Appreciated the response.

Hazel

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Thursday, February 3, 2005 9:40 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by britchick:
:-) I know Channain.... but this thread in general was pretty full with the personal attacks, which made me kinda nervous.

Appreciated the response.

Hazel

Yes, I know. Has a tendency to cause just about anyone to respond negatively, even if they don't have a mind to normally, dont' you think? Then again, that was probably the point to this thread and the originator who has admitted he likes to "stir things up." Besides, I appreciated the information and the point of view.

I had a great aunt Hazel once - one of my grandmother's sisters. She was fiesty.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
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