Serenity needs a new composer. by Gorramreavers

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Serenity needs a new composer.

POSTED BY: GORRAMREAVERS
UPDATED: Thursday, January 27, 2005 01:56
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Monday, January 24, 2005 4:29 AM

From buffy.nu:

Joss Whedon explains why Carter Burwell is no longer working on Serenity
From Carterburwell.com & Whedonesque.com - 2005-01-24th

I just got fired from the film Serenity, a few weeks before the start of recording. Don’t know who’s going to end up scoring the film - send in your applications now.

I’m starting work on a not-quite-named theatre project with the Coen Brothers and Charlie Kaufman. We should have a name and a cast very soon and at that point I’ll post more information.

Carter Burwell

Joos Whedon :

Well, I just read the link to Carter’s page. Not overly verbose, is he? Anyway, I thought I’d let you all in on the details of the sitch, as best I can.

First off, when this movie got off the ground, the studio made it clear that I would need to use someone with a good deal of movie experience to score it, which was perfectly valid, though it ruled out a lot of guys, including Greg, that I loved working with. So entering the world of big-or-medium-time movie composers, the first person I thought of was Carter Burwell. I’d known his work since Blood Simple, have always been (and always will be) a slavish fan. We’re talking about a guy who’s penned some of the most indelible tunes in movies: Raising Arizona, Miller’s Crossing, Rob Roy, Gods and Monsters, even It Could Happen To You had an achingly beautiful score. I had met him years ago and he’s a gent. I was surprised and thrilled to have him on the film.

You know how it is when you have two friends you love very much and you set ’em up on a date? Hiring a composer is kind of like that. However much you might love your friends and think they’ll be a perfect match, the odds of their actually getting together are slim. Also, sometimes you forget to tell one of your friends something important about the other, like she’s very political, or narcoleptic, or doesn’t have a face... The movie as I first described it and the movie as it turned out were kind of different, the needs of the score different as well. Carter did some great work, really interesting, but in the end my two friends didn’t end up dating. It happens, as I’ve learned, a lot. The fact is, Carter and I both felt the tension, an imperfect sympatico on the project, and this hardly came out of the blue. We might have soldiered on but he has other obligations looming and we kind of had to start from scratch, so it just became untenable, schedule-wise. I will always be a huge fan of Carter’s and may one day make the kind of film that’s right for him. Meanwhile, we move on. I will have a new composer soon and the work will continue. The movie will be what it needs to be.

But most importantly, who DOESN’T want to see a Coen brothers Space Opera? Dreamlogic, are you nuts? I’m salivating over that!

This wasn’t a fun week for anyone, but we learn as we go. I’ll check in with you guys anon. -j.

joss | January 23, 21:32 CET

"..it is my very favorite gun."

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Monday, January 24, 2005 2:39 PM

ZOID

Riiinnngg!

"Hello, this is the Edmondson household. We're not available right now; but if you'll leave a message after the tone, we'll call you back as soon as possible."

Beeep!

"Um, yeah. This message is for Greg. Uh, Greg? Joss here. Listen we kinda had a little disconnect with Burwell, and I was wondering -"

*clatter, clatter. phone receiver hits floor amid generalized cursing and glassware breaking. cat screeches in background.*

"Joss! Hey! It's Greg! What's up?"

The rest is cinematic history...

Imaginatively,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Monday, January 24, 2005 11:07 PM

MOJAVE

Like all film score nerds, I'm a Carter Burwell fan, but I always had my doubts that he'd be able to do what Greg Edmonson did for Firefly. I can imagine the scene: Joss leaning forward, looking at the monitor, and not hearing the heartland twang and heart on the sleeve romanticism that GE brought. Not everybody gets Firefly, not everybody is so lucky. But Greg Edmonson got it. Take your pick. The Alliance ships descending into Serenity valley. Returning Tracey to his family. The "hang on, travelers" bit at the beginning of Serenity. He got the romanticism, he got the collision of cultures, he got the humor, he got the harsh conditions the BDH live under, and he must have gotten Joss.

So is Greg Edmonson a slam dunk for the movie? No, because there's a sizable transition to be made between what's perfect for TV and what's perfect for the big screen. I think it's going to be one of the most difficult films to score ever, because what would you write? What's the precedent? The studio, in their inexpressible idiocy, probably wants it to sound like Star Trek or Star Wars. Pause here to consider that prospect. Seriously though, I can think of 3 precedents, reference points to begin the discussion, in increasing order of stretch:

1) The closest precedent I can think of is "Sun Rings" by Terry Riley (for you Who fans, that's the Riley referenced in "Baba O'Riley"). Sun Rings was a joint commission by NASA and the Kronos Quartet, and just picture a string quartet making their way through the blackness of space, with space represented by actual audio recordings of the radio waves from solar flares, lightning on Jupiter, the solar wind hitting Saturn's magnetosphere, etc

2) the Alien 3 main title - Elliot Goldenthal. And in fact, if Greg Edmonson really isn't the guy for the movie, Elliot Goldenthal probably is (as long as Charlie Bisharat is playing the solo violin parts).

3) Ralph Vaughn Williams Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis (the John Barbirolli 1962 recording won't be topped) - a reference point just for the sound, the intimate violin and viola solos set against double string orchestra feel like Firefly to me

This is what I hope Joss does: give some scenes to Greg Edmonson and see what happens. The studio will shut the hell up after they see the numbers from a test screening with that music.

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 1:27 AM

ZOID

mojave delurks, and brings insightful, spot-on commentary. Amen, Brother.

I, too, have enjoyed C. Burwell's cinematic work (nobody's mentioned "O Brother, Where Art Thou?"). But how can one dismiss Edmondson's work on Firefly? I don't believe I have ever been so favorably impressed by a television score, for all the reasons you mentioned. Firefly would not have had the emotional content it had, without his music as backdrop.

So what if he's never done a major motion picture? Neither has Joss. Based on what JW said (see first post, above), I think the studio wants Joss to use a power hitter, but is otherwise staying out of his vision. To carry the baseball analogy a little further, sometimes the lineup needs a contact hitter -- a guy that can move a runner up or take an extra base -- more than a guy who swings for the fences (perhaps striking out a lot), has a larger than life persona, and vies for team leadership.

This is not to say Carter Burwell is that power hitter; but rather, that Greg is that scrappy team player. He fits JW's team and the story, like a hand in glove. Problem is, IMDB show him in post on "Perfect" (2005); another 'minor' mo-pic, but still...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 3:35 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Riiinnngg!

"Hello, this is the Edmondson household. We're not available right now; but if you'll leave a message after the tone, we'll call you back as soon as possible."

Beeep!

"Um, yeah. This message is for Greg. Uh, Greg? Joss here. Listen we kinda had a little disconnect with Burwell, and I was wondering -"

*clatter, clatter. phone receiver hits floor amid generalized cursing and glassware breaking. cat screeches in background.*

"Joss! Hey! It's Greg! What's up?"

The rest is cinematic history...

Here's to hoping that is happening even as we read this thread Zoid.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Meet Up:
http://firefly.meetup.com/9/boards/

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:14 AM

OPPYH

OK, this might be a problem. Film scores have a way of dictating the overall mood of a movie. Imagine Star Wars if Jerry Goldsmith had scored it. A completely different movie would have been the result. Carter Burwell was in my opinion was the perfect choice for Serenity. Just listen to Fargo, or Being John Malcovich, and think Firefly, and you'll know what I mean. I understand, It didn't work out, and it's time to move on, but here's where the problem kicks in. There aren't that many film composers out there that I feel can make Serenity. Danny Elfman is overused, and his music tends to sound too similar. When I watched the first Spiderman, I thought I was watching Batman again. Howard Shore is a good choice, but will Joss use him? Losing Burwell creates more problems than solutions.

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:52 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
So what if he's never done a major motion picture? Neither has Joss. Based on what JW said (see first post, above), I think the studio wants Joss to use a power hitter, but is otherwise staying out of his vision. To carry the baseball analogy a little further, sometimes the lineup needs a contact hitter -- a guy that can move a runner up or take an extra base -- more than a guy who swings for the fences (perhaps striking out a lot), has a larger than life persona, and vies for team leadership.

You can understand that point of view - too many rookie players on the team, and you might bat 1000 (

! Never run with a metaphor in a "sport" you barely understand - bastard child of rounders. Invented in the US indeed. Go ask your Ukrainian grandparents and Jane Austen) because they don't know they shouldn't, or you might get a steaming pile.

Hence the usual trick of a skilled cinematographer with a rookie director.

Its not just about being able to score a movie, but with an SFX film, to score and re-score at the last minute - not something everyone can do. You can understand where the studio is coming from, but I'm kind of hoping they take the chance.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 1:00 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
There aren't that many film composers out there that I feel can make Serenity. Danny Elfman is overused, and his music tends to sound too similar. When I watched the first Spiderman, I thought I was watching Batman again. Howard Shore is a good choice, but will Joss use him? Losing Burwell creates more problems than solutions.

I'm not so sure - I put Malkovich in, and it was interesting, but I'm not sure it was Serenity - Burwell does some great counter-point composing to be sure (I do like his soundtrack to The General's Daughter, which is something a bit different from the usual action fare as well)

I picked out Mark Isham's Rules of Engagement soundtrack as a Serenity-like sound. I think with the bigger name composers, you run the risk that they produce something that sounds similar to what they did before because - Elfman's superhero soundtracks being obvious; the key is finding the right match - Elfman and Batman being the obvious example.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 1:02 PM

MALICIOUS

Hey, is Joss a class-act or what? Carter Burwell comes off a bit sour-grapey, but Joss just casts out his happy-tentacles and gives compliments as well as information and suddenly all is well. I trust him to do what is right for my--uh, I guess I mean HIS--movie.

Mal-licious

Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 3:35 PM

TRIBES

Come on Universal, you know in heart, if you know anything, that Greg Edmonson is the one to score Serenity....

Peace
Serenity

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:43 PM

ZOID

tribes wrote:

Quote:
Come on Universal, you know in heart, if you know anything, that Greg Edmonson is the one to score Serenity....

Succinctly put. Bravo.

The beauty of the lost child that is Firefly, is that it's a tapestry of words, nonverbal communication and music. If Edmonson can't be had -- for whatever reason -- it's a bit like pulling a thread, a golden strand from that tapestry.

I certainly meant no slight to Carter Burwell, whose work stands on its own merit.

But who can reproduce the essential atmosphere Edmonson provided Firefly? How could the Firefly of our fondest memories be improved upon musically? For better or worse, Edmonson made Firefly his own, and anybody else will suffer by comparison.

Edmonson's the man for the job.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I was willing to give Burwell the benefit of the doubt, as the answer to the questions above, as I will do for his eventual replacement, whomever that may turn out to be. But in my heart of hearts, Greg's got to be the artistic choice, if not the commercial favorite.
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:54 PM

SIMONWHO

To be honest, I think Burwell was really very classy about his removal. How many of us would be quite so reasoned if we'd just been fired about our boss?

Anyway, I'm delighted to offer the services of one of Britain's premiere composers, Mr Dennis Waterman, who will not only write the Firefly theme tune, he was also sing it. Sadly his hiring will necessitate the firing of Nathan Fillon as Dennis will also have to star in the movie too.

*****excerpt from new theme***********
"Lots going on in outer space, doo doo doo doooo,
Turns out that River's a mental case, doo doo doo dooo."

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Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:21 PM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

If Greg's not available I'd go for Michael Nyman, composer of (many films including) Gattaca. Though his style and Greg's are very different, he has a way with music that always takes my breath away.

Joss has already stated that the film was a big influence on him and he played cast members certain pieces of the music to help them understand their character and where they came from. I think he'd compose an amazing score for he film, and is a big enough name for the studio.

check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

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Wednesday, January 26, 2005 6:38 PM

FILMCRITIC3000

I personally think either John Ottman (he did "X2: X-Men United" and has done many other impressive scores) or Graeme Revell (I've loved his work ever since "The Crow" and he too has done some great films) should get the gig. Other names are failing me now. Whoever it turns out to be, I just hope they're able to properly score our 'verse. With Joss at hand, I and all of us Browncoats have no worries.

"The first thing I do in the morning is brush
my teeth and sharpen my tongue." -- Dorothy Parker

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Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:56 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

I just had a thought - How about something more acoustic in sound? Say Pat Metheny

TheSomnambulist

www.cirqus.com
For Pictures:
http://www.cirqus.com/lightfantastic.html

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