Westerns by christhecynic

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Westerns

POSTED BY: CHRISTHECYNIC
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:05
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VIEWED: 2466
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Saturday, April 16, 2005 12:01 PM

The Western is just too vivid to die and just too compelling to turn away from. That’s the beauty of it – it can take whatever you throw at it, and just about anything you can say about that vibrant style of movies is likely to be true. Whether you consider it intellectually, or simply experience it emotionally, the Western is a limitless landscape, filled with beauty, challenge, enjoyment and meaning. It’s a territory that will never be fully explored, a frontier that will never be tamed.

When I read that in a little notebook that came with a special "gift edition" of Silverado I felt the need to share it.

Looking at it now I can't really see exactly how it connects to Firefly, but I think it does, more so than many westerns.

-

By the way, watch Silverado, all of you. Even if Firefly is the only western you like, watch it. Rent it, illegally download it online, borrow it, buy it, whatever. Just see it.

(I do not condone illegally downloading it, but I have a feeling if you see it you will pay for it later at some point. It’s just too good to go without, and some grainy thing on your computer isn’t the same as a legally attained copy.)

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Saturday, April 16, 2005 1:23 PM

REGINAROADIE

Actually, I think that SERENITY coming out now is perfect. There's been a boom in westerns (THE MISSING, DEADWOOD, OPEN RANGE and the upcoming INTO THE WEST starring our own Wash) and I think SERENITY coming out now will fill the nedd for both sci-fi and western genre fans.

As for other legendary westerns that people should see, I have one. It's the only one on my DVD shelf (excluding BACK TO THE FUTURE 3), but it's so fucking good that I don't need any other ones on there. I am of course talking about Sergio Leone's ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST. Pretty much the entire western genre is boiled down to this three hour epic that elevates the genre into art, actually. One of the most lyrical, visceral westerns ever filmed. I seriously hope that in SERENITY or any future FIREFLY movies, that they should pay homage to this legendary classic.

"NO HAI ES BANDAI. THERE IS....NO.....BAND. AND YET....WE HEAR A BAND."

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Saturday, April 16, 2005 1:39 PM

BATMARLOWE

I really liked SILVERADO too and I'm a big fan of all the great westerns. HIGH NOON, 3:10 TO YUMA, and THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE are among my favorites. Just saw THE PROFESSIONALS for the first time a few weeks ago. Pretty good. JOHNNY GUITAR is another fave. The last really good Western (that came out on the big screen) was probably UNFORGIVEN. Although I'd like to hear other opinions on that. Maybe I've missed some. For instance, I haven't seen OPEN RANGE.

Interestingly enough it's the "Western" aspects of FIREFLY that I like the least. One aspect about FIREFLY that is supposed to be like a Western is simply the setting of Joss' fictional world being similar to America after the Civil War and into the period of western expansion. To me, even though Joss made it this way on purpose it has little to do with "The Western" as a film genre. It's just FIREFLY to me, and for the most part it has great stories, writing, characters, and acting. It's just a vision of a possible future for the human race and not a Science Fiction/Western. It's our BDH's and their situation (which is due largely in part of being on the losing side of a civil war). Generally speaking, FIREFLY draws it's "Westerness" from being similar to actual American history than to being like a "Western". And of course Joss expanded beyond those historical similarities and FIREFLY developed into its own singular "thing". Because Joss is a talented mofo.

Other aspects that cry out "Western" such as the barfight in "The Train Job", and certain modes of dress (like the bonnet Mal was wearing when disguised as woman), the vehicle that either was or was made to look like a Conestoga wagon, or the explanation that the brothel in "Heart of Gold" was purposefully made to look like something from the Old West because that's the way the guy who owned that moon wanted it to look are all contrivances to me. And they were aspects that I just put up with that were far outweighed by what I felt were FIREFLY'S good qualities. And as the show developed I think those more superficial aspects dropped out (until we got to "Heart of Gold" that is).

So for me I never engaged with FIREFLY as a Science Fiction/Western. I think of it has Science Fiction generally because it takes place in the future and has space travel as part of the daily life of the world in which it takes place. And the consensus seems to be that fiction that includes those two qualities falls under the very broad umbrella of "Science Fiction".

SciFi/Western is such an easy description but it's FIREFLY and it ain't quite like nuthin' else.

But that's just my take on it.

Thanks for enduring my ramble.

And oh yeah, SILVERADO is really good movie.

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Saturday, April 16, 2005 2:23 PM

DIETCOKE

I grew up with Westerns and loved them as a child. The more modern westerns (Unforgiven) I hate.

My favorite is High Noon with Gary Cooper.

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Saturday, April 16, 2005 3:51 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

So little time, so many westerns. I think High Noon and Unforgiven are two of the best western's I've seen. Other western's (not already mentioned in this thread) that I'd recommend True Grit, Rooster Cogburn, Shane, The Searchers, The Outlaw Josey Wales, Winchester '73, The Magnificent 7.

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Saturday, April 16, 2005 7:26 PM

BATMARLOWE

Gotta agree with Reginaroadie about ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST. It's brilliant. Brings new meaning to the term "Horse Opera". But in this case I mean that as a compliment. Check it out and you'll see what I mean.

And speaking of Leone, the "Dollars" Trilogy is also great stuff.

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Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:49 PM

the movie is not the Series. Only the facts have been changed, to irritate the innocent; the names of the actors and characters remain the same

I love good westerns because, with few exceptions, they have a good individual (sometimes with help) triumphing over a bad individual (with help), and because of the colour palette & panorama of the American west. I'm not a fan of western novels.

My favourite western is Lonesome Dove.
In movies it's the Good, the Bad & the Ugly, and Once Upon a Time In the West. Someday I may decide that Open Range deserves to be ranked with them -- it's certainly very good -- but it's too soon to tell.
My favourite from the black & white era is Winchester '73.

Btw, they may have horses & the costumes, includin' a hog leg on th' hip, and say "ain't" (with varying degrees of skill), but they ain't even fightin' the big bad (Alliance, maybe Blue Sun), let alone winnin'. I don't consider Firefly a western.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) KGB, "le Cabooza", from "Transportation"

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Saturday, April 16, 2005 9:23 PM

NYWOE

>>And speaking of Leone, the "Dollars" Trilogy is also great stuff.<<

Yes! The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is my favorite! The music alone is worth the viewing. :)

The last time that I watched this movie, I imagined that it was a prequel to Firefly. Blondie was Jayne, and the Civil War was of course the Alliance/Browncoat War. (What was that called? The War Between the Planets or something?) Anyway, it was a fun way to re-watch an old favorite and pretend like I was getting new Firefly stuff. Okay, yes I'm a desperate geek, what can I say?

I have heard of a place where humans do battle in a ring of Jell-O.
--Teal'c

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Saturday, April 16, 2005 9:26 PM

NYWOE

>>I don't consider Firefly a western.<<

There are many different kinds of westerns, and I think that Firefly fits the necessary qualifications.

But you're also right that Firefly is something unique unto itself. It's science fiction, it's a western. But superceding all of that, it is Firefly and nothing else. :)

I have heard of a place where humans do battle in a ring of Jell-O.
--Teal'c

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Sunday, April 17, 2005 3:50 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
I grew up with Westerns and loved them as a child. The more modern westerns (Unforgiven) I hate.

My favorite is High Noon with Gary Cooper.

What about The Quick and the Dead?
OK, lets go back a little, Bite the Bullet?
Nevada Smith?

BTW, High Noon was truly great, but because I'm a sci-Fi geek, I actually like Outland better.

Grownups have no sense of humour Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 17, 2005 4:20 AM

JADEHAND

I love Silverado, always kinda wanted a sequel. One of few westerns I liked other than Tomestone and Wyatt Earp. Funny, Silverado and Wyatt Earp and Dances with Wolves were the only movies with Costner than I thought he did a decent job in. Maybe he should stick with westerns.

Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live

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Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:34 AM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
...
What about The Quick and the Dead?
OK, lets go back a little, Bite the Bullet?
Nevada Smith?

BTW, High Noon was truly great, but because I'm a sci-Fi geek, I actually like Outland better.

I forgot about Nevada Smith. Who's in Bite the Bullet?

edited, I noticed I mispelled Smith

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Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:52 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Not to forget Last Man Standing. Yes, it is a Western. There's even a horse - OK, it's a dead horse. Still better than the bottomless bilge from Leone - and Hill credits Kikushima and Kurosawa.

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Sunday, April 17, 2005 12:10 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

To me a Western isn't about setting, it's about more abstract aspects of the genre that matter.

As for the bar brawls and horses, bar brawls will be part of human existence for as long as there is alcohol served in places where the patrons have diverse ideologies.

And horses just make sense to me. If you want to maintain a planet you need an ecosystem, and if you have an ecosystem isn’t it easier to bring embryos and an incubator that will create beasts of burden which you can feed off of that ecosystem than lots of equipment you need to buy fuel for?

Carriages, I don’t see the reason for the design to change that much, I mean I know people who build perfectly useful recreational and commercial boats off of designs that have existed for over two thousand years. If you like the carriage why not build it that way, it’s probably one of the few artistic choices a border moon inhabitant can make.

(Even 500 years from now only an idiot would miss the similarities between recently teraformed planets and the western landscape.)

It’s always seemed to me that similarities breed similarities.

If you take the idea that the teraforming process creates worlds with that general climate I don’t think it’s even close to a stretch to think that some people would want to emulate a culture from “Earth that was” that shared that climate. And if you are going to take the time and effort to do the wagon the bonnet goes in hand.

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Sunday, April 17, 2005 12:49 PM

EMBERS

my all time favorite Western was 'Maverick'
which is kind of a nice tie-in w/'Firefly,
because the humor was just as important as the adventure,
and the characters had interesting off-beat POV,
I feel that 'Maverick' still holds up today
(I mean the TV show, particularly w/James Garner NOT the movie)

I also really enjoyed 'Silverado',
which was a nice ensable piece with a lot of interesting story lines all getting tied up together.
Lawrence Kasden is a very good writer, most of the time.

edited to add: I also really love using the Western look for people colonizing a newly terriformed planet.
Normally when they want to show the poor in the future they use the urban slum as a model (like in Blade Runner) but Joss' idea of many of the poor struggling out in the rough harsh enviornments are just as valid...and add a really nice, interesting texture to his story.
At least it works for me.

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Sunday, April 17, 2005 12:54 PM

CHRISISALL

Bite the Bullet stars Gene Hackman, Candice Bergman, Jan-Michael Vincent, and a slew of others I can't think of right now. It's about a race in the old west(with a robbery, fights, etc.).
A BIG kinda drama/comedy type thing. Lotsa fun. Late sixties.
Nevada Smith, now that's a classic. The legend Steve McQueen.

Later, Veteran.

Don't punch that horse Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:55 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
edited to add: I also really love using the Western look for people colonizing a newly terriformed planet.

Normally when they want to show the poor in the future they use the urban slum as a model (like in Blade Runner) but Joss' idea of many of the poor struggling out in the rough harsh environments are just as valid...and add a really nice, interesting texture to his story.
At least it works for me.

It all depends on where you are, if it's a full up planet of course it will be an urban slum, but if it's a newly colonized planet, which many shows have, it will always be how Joss shows it, not necessarily the climate, but the struggle for existence against the environment, the lack of widespread technology, so forth.

I remember seeing a thing on the Discovery Channel (a science channel if you don’t know) and it was talking about colonizing Mars. The thing is it just costs too much to bring a bunch of structures, mud huts are the best idea. Of course they need water or something else like that to make mud huts, but they hope to find large ice deposits around there.

Imagine that: going out in a space suit through the airlock of your mud hut. (I don’t fully understand how such a thing can be assured to be airtight, actually, and you still have to bring a door to go out through.)*

No matter the climate of the planet early colonization would have to be frontier life of some sort.

-

*It just occured to me -yes, I am slow- that perhaps the plan was to bring a core facility and then expand it through mud buildings, such that none of them would have an exit.

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 6:12 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

I'm not hugely into Genre. If a film is good - it's undoubtedly good beyond it's genre, as with The Good The Bad and The Ugly. I don't really think of that film as a Western. It's just a great film.

That said I go more for Pirate films than Westerns if there's a choice of either on the TV.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 7:01 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'm not hugely into Genre. If a film is good - it's undoubtedly good beyond it's genre

The point of the thing that I copied here is that Western is almost beyond genre in that it is so wide open that any story can be told in it.

Of course no one should judge a thing by genre, Western or otherwise.

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 7:23 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'm not hugely into Genre. If a film is good - it's undoubtedly good beyond it's genre

The point of the thing that I copied here is that Western is almost beyond genre in that it is so wide open that any story can be told in it.

Of course no one should judge a thing by genre, Western or otherwise.

Oh I see what you mean. Sorry wasn't looking at it from that angle... That's a fair point I guess, and yes I've seen Silverado - it's a cool film.

But I must say Sci-fi holds up to such a claim also. Have you seen Forbidden Planet? That thing is basically the 'Tempes't in Space... Actually isn't there a western that is the Tempest also? I can't remember though - but yes I follow the line of thought.

cheers
The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:12 AM

CAPTAINCDC

The best westerns ever in my opinion:
Stagecoach
The Searchers
Rio Bravo
High Noon

If you have not seen these four, do yourself a favor and check them out. Great timeless movies.

---------------------------------------

The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:25 AM

BEATLE

A few of my favorites:
The Searchers
The Cowboys
Lonesome Dove
Shane
The Wild Bunch
The Outlaw Josey Wales

Firefly is even mentioned here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_movie

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 10:02 AM

CHRISISALL

Cool link, Beatle.
Hey, I forgot to list my favourite western in my post above, Quigley Down Under!!I absolutly love the whole thing! The music, Laura San Giacomo, Tom Selleck, the photography, it was all top notch.
Anyone see it?

For sure and for certain Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:05 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hey, I forgot to list my favourite western in my post above, Quigley Down Under!!I absolutly love the whole thing! The music, Laura San Giacomo, Tom Selleck, the photography, it was all top notch.
Anyone see it?

"I'm new here, so I ain't rightly certain. Is everyone in this country as butt-ugly as you three?"
~ Matthew Quigley

I could so see Mal saying that, with the second line starting with "Is everyone on this planet..."

It's one of my Dad's favorites. He's been watching Westerns since the beginning of time. One of my more treasured father/daughter moments is watching "Rio Bravo" with him.

"Soldier," for it's lack of convincing special effects during the spaceship sequences, benefits from the Western format:

Quote:
A little bit about "Soldier"
"I LOVE WESTERNS," PAUL ANDERSON, THE DIRECTOR of Soldier said recently in an interview. "Nobody's interested in them anymore. But if you replace horses with spaceships..."

The Western is the most adaptable of movie genres. Its basic ingredients have been applied to contemporary urban settings in vigilante films like Dirty Harry, and they helped us look into the future in action pics like The Road Warrior.

Anderson believes the classic Western formula of the lone individualist who tries to civilize an uncivilized land can also be applied to outer space as well. "Soldier has the classic narrative structure of a Western like Shane set in a sci-fi backdrop. The story is character driven, yet still has the cool sci-fi hardware."

And this is probably the best bit:

Quote:
Paul Anderson goes on:
That very idea of home, what it is, and what it means, has been an important part of what has made the Western last as a genre. And in science-fiction, home is either a distant place or a wreckage beneath our feet. "Soldier" carries on the tradition of both popular film styles by exploring the ground they have in common, which is the redemptive powers of having a sense of place.

"Don't know where we're goin', but there's no sense being late."
~ Matthew Quigley

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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