Piracy and My Favorite Show: Firefly by EndangeredMassa

Quote:
Originally posted by EndangeredMassa:

I always said to myself that the things I pirate always fall into one of two categories: 1) things I wouldn't buy anyway AND won't get any real benefit from or 2) things that I WILL buy eventually, but would really like to have now.

Only two? For me it's:

1) I know it sucks and doesn't even deserve the download
2) that are only good for download
3) that are downloadable and will buy
4) See in theater (and of course, will buy)

And even then there are a number of "will buys", namely:
1) will purchase immediately
2) will purchase after price comes down
3) will ask for christmas/birthday/etc
4) will wait for bargain bin

For the past number of years only Lord of the Rings has made it into (4). The movie theaters are really going to have to make a better effort to make going there a good experience. ie EVERYTHING is TOO expensive. The theaters are FAR too cold. The fat loud-mouth sitting behind me, kicking the back of my chair, needs to shut his mouth and stop kicking my chair.

Also, I really think that hollywood (and the TV) companies really need to start to make an actual effort to put out good stuff. Seriously, when is the last time anyone could say that they've seen a GREAT movie!

That all being said, Serenity has by default entered category (4).

So, barring myself not being in a country that won't have Serenity for a *long* time after initial opening in North America, I'll be giving Joss my money. And even then, when it comes out, I'll still give my money anyway upon release wherever I am.

I want more of these.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Sunday, May 8, 2005 8:41 AM

MSCKAREN

Well, you wouldn't have much luck from the pre-screenings. Apparently, security and fan vigilance prevented any pirating. At least, Serenity has not shown up on any of the Torrent sites I know of. Just the trailer for the movie. I take all this to be a good sign.

There are some things you just HAVE to see on the big screen to appreciate and I hope everybody will think Serenity is one of them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Appears they've canceled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."

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Sunday, May 8, 2005 8:44 AM

CAPNRAHN

Add in my hearty agreement and support to your proposal!

"I've heard more intelligent sounds coming out of a pair of corduroys" - Herbert Phillip Lovecraft from *Cast A Deadly Spell*

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Sunday, May 8, 2005 10:18 AM

SGTGUMP

The only movie I have downloaded was Fahrenheit 911, and that was because I didn't want to Michael Moore more money.

I will probably go to the theater shows a few times, bringing as many other people as possible. And I will probably pre-order about 5 DVD's from Amazon to boost sales. I'll probably give them out as presents to people who haven't seen the movie. That's the plan.

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Sunday, May 8, 2005 3:05 PM

ENDANGEREDMASSA

Yeah, I'm glad to hear the people can't even find the movie on torrent sites yet. I hope things stay that way for a good long while.

I wish it was available earlier than September, though. But, later is better than never, I suppose.

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Sunday, May 8, 2005 3:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sgtgump:
The only movie I have downloaded was Fahrenheit 911, and that was because I didn't want to Michael Moore more money.

Well, since MM himself said he didn't care whether people downloaded it or not, fair game.

Also, I as well have already gotten a number of my friends (provided I'm still in the city) to accompany me to Serenity

And even if I'm not, I'll be hounding them to go see it still

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Sunday, May 8, 2005 4:41 PM

KRYPTICIDE

I think piracy can be good in a ways...some people will stumble across the episodes on BT and then realize how good the series is.

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Monday, May 9, 2005 2:30 AM

MAJORCLOD

I've burnt the first two discs or so for friends to try and get them into watching it. By the end of the second disc they have bought the box set.

I've found it hard to get someone to just watch it by telling them about it, they won't even go down to the video store and rent it. As soon as I give them a copy of the first and second discs they love the show.

As for Serenity, I doubt I'd be watching a pirated version unless it was extremely good quality, I hate cam jobs.

No doubt even if I did have it, I'd still be watching it in theatres numerous times.

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Monday, May 9, 2005 3:15 AM

PHOEBE

Don't all pounce on me here, but I've been told that the parent of someone I know has a pirate copy of Serenity from the preview screenings in London. It was NOT hard to get a video camera in. I did, but only because I had to take it with me and couldn't afford the time it would take to get it back after or I'd miss my train... didn't record anything myself though.

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Monday, May 9, 2005 3:57 AM

WHOISRIVER

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoebe:
Don't all pounce on me here, but I've been told that the parent of someone I know has a pirate copy of Serenity from the preview screenings in London. It was NOT hard to get a video camera in.

Sigh. If this is true, and it leaks around, I can well see a major storm kicking off. For a start, the cinema in question has CCTV. They know where we all live. It is a crime, with prison sentencing, in the UK. Etc. Etc.

I literally can't believe somebody has pirated it from the UK - that is _shameful_.

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Monday, May 9, 2005 5:16 AM

PSYCHICRIVER

I seriously hope that there aren't any browncoats planning to pirate the movie.

Hardly a real browncoat if they are!

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."

"We can take care of each other. I'll knit!"

Summer Glau to me - "You are so photogenic."

Me -

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Monday, May 9, 2005 5:21 AM

SIMONWHO

Given that the screenings in London were several months ago, I think it's fair to say that either a) they aren't going to release it or b) they never had a copy of it. Either is fine by me.

As for pirating the TV show... well, depriving Fox of money... *tries hard to make himself feel bad*. Nope, not happening.

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Monday, May 9, 2005 5:21 AM

PSYCHICRIVER

Quote:
Originally posted by MajorClod:
As for Serenity, I doubt I'd be watching a pirated version unless it was extremely good quality, I hate cam jobs.

No doubt even if I did have it, I'd still be watching it in theatres numerous times.

Maybe. But if you did watch a pirate copy, you'd (assumingly) think the film was amazing, and want to watch it again, and maybe perhaps another time. This is the kinda excited hype that would make you go back to the cinema maybe 3 or 4 times when the film comes out. But this may be lost if you've seen the film a few times already.

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."

"We can take care of each other. I'll knit!"

Summer Glau to me - "You are so photogenic."

Me -

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Monday, May 9, 2005 5:25 AM

PSYCHICRIVER

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoebe:
I've been told that the parent of someone I know has a pirate copy of Serenity from the preview screenings in London. It was NOT hard to get a video camera in.

That's fustrating. Everyone really wanted those screenings, and we were given them.

Some people are given an inch and they take a mile.

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."

"We can take care of each other. I'll knit!"

Summer Glau to me - "You are so photogenic."

Me -

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Monday, May 9, 2005 6:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

As for pirating the TV show... well, depriving Fox of money... *tries hard to make himself feel bad*. Nope, not happening.

My thoughts too. I have thought about it, but still can't bring myself to do it.

Even if someone did it, really what harm would it do? Sales of the box set are inconsequential right now. We have the BDM with the understanding if the *movie* does well, we'll get more movies. The box set sales have already done there job.

And if ripping the box set and sending it out does it's job of getting people out to see the movie(s), then what harm could it do? I really don't see a dark side here.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, May 9, 2005 9:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Seriously, when is the last time anyone could say that they've seen a GREAT movie!

May 5th.

Anyway it sounds like you guys have come up with rules for pirating any movie ever.

1.) If I like it enough to pay for it
2.) If I don't like it enough to pay for it
3.) If rule 1 and 2 do not apply

Let's just face it, pirating movies is wrong. It's going to cut into the box office numbers somewhat. If a person is intrigued enough to download the movie then they have enough intrest to go see it or rent it.

If anyone pirates this movie I'll personally never forgive them. Then I'll download it cause I really really wanna see it again and again. Which I doubt will stop me from going again and again when the movie hits theaters.

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Monday, May 9, 2005 1:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

Let's just face it, pirating movies is wrong.

This is a matter of opinion and your over simplification is a joke. This situation is far more complex than that. Also, your "simplification" of my rules for downloading is insulting. I can see the difference between illegal and wrong, can't you? And even then, which countries laws are you refering to? Laws regarding this differ widly from country to country.

In todays day and age, depending on circumstances, I really don't think that "pirating" is wrong. ie If I bought a product that turned out to be a peice of go-se, I can return it, get my money back. Not so with a movie in the theater, that money is gone forever. And I'm not in a financial situation such that I can afford to waste that much money nor can I nor do I feel that I must waste that much time.

My point is that the movie theaters are not making an effort to make going to movies affordable nor enjoyable.

My point is that the companies that make movies are doing nothing to make those movies enjoyable. Instead they are making movies that only cater to the lowest common denomenator. ie The Pacifier, National Treasure, etc, in general, movies that make things go boom. And even the "good" ones aren't that good, they're just so-so.

This has forced me into a situation that I'm not happy with. Do I put myself through an experience that will take away from a movie that I want to see and may have enjoyed, or do I actually enjoy it putting my money in the part of the system that I feel most comfortable with for that particular movie?

I have been screwed by misleading commercials, etc far too many times to allow myself to be fooled again. If they want my money, they'll work for it, and that hasn't been happening for a long time. Thus I will try before I buy.

Fact of the matter is that the movie industry has enjoyed total control for a *very* long time. Fact of the matter is that with the advent of wideband, the balance of power has shifted to the end consumer. So, the logical conclusion is to raise the quality of movies so that more will go see them, tighen security so that screener don't get out, etc. Wait, I said logical, which we all know that these execs are exactly not! ie F*X.

Now instead of making good movies (for the most part, once in a blue moon one slips through the cracks), instead of tightening there own security, etc, they are lobbying for a landslide of unenforcable laws and putting on massive propagana campains to brainwash people into thinking that this is wrong and they're losing tonnes of money.

Losing money.. bullshit. Money can only be counted as a loss if someone would've gone and seen it, which most won't.

ie The recording industry of Canada has stated that they've had to make layoffs, etc because they aren't making as much money and have pointed to decreasing profits as "proof" that piracy is seriously effecting there industry.

Fact of the matter is that if you correct those numbers for economic recession, etc the recording industry has gone through this time the best! Comparing to other industries the recording industry has had the least layoffs, decrease in profits, etc. And those other industries are not affected by "piracy."

I would imagine similarly for the movie industry.

The fact of the matter is that this isn't going away; the genie is out of the bottle. The fact of the matter is that making new laws to make this illegal isn't going to solve the problem. The fact of the matter is that these industries are going to have to learn to accept this situation and find creative solutions to solve this "problem."

We all remember when the movie industry shouted that with the advent of recorders that the industry will fall apart etc. We all remember when the recording industry said the same with tapes and cd's. Well, it's been some time and both are still thriving.

As I've stated above, the simple solution of making better movies and making a better viewing experience will solve it for me, and I imagine many others as well. Also, simply increasing security in there own companies will solve much of this "problem" as nothing can be downloaded if people don't get a copy.

So, instead of just listening to the company line, think about these things.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Actually, what discourages ME from big screen movie theatres was mentioned earlier..

Yeah, try to watch a movie with 2 cell phones ringing and some asswipe in the back row discussing his gory medical procedure with his mother in law, add in a squalling kid, and some jerk (who shockingly turned out to be a lil old lady) kicking the back of your seat over and over hard enough to crush kidney stones.

This combined with crush-seating practically stacked on top of each other, and at angles so bad you have to practically put your BACK on the seat cushion to see the screen, only.. wait, you CAN'T see.. cause you're 5'6" and the guy in front of you is 6'2" and seems to have elephantitis of the head or something and you can neither see, nor hear, a damned thing...

There's a couple of older, very run down places here with better seating, less crowds, and in spite of the fact that they're all beat to hell and run down, a hell of a lot better atmosphere.

I figure it'd be more in keeping with our BDH's to see the BDM in a busted up, run down theatre run by folks just tryin to get by.

Cause these newfangled modern places ? they suck, and so do the people in em, and when i'm watchin the BDM, *IF YOUR CELL PHONE RINGS*... you will be wishing I was as kind and fluffy as Jayne Cobb....

Anyhow, done ranting, maybe I made a point, I dunno, but mannnn I hadda get that off my chest.

-F

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:02 AM

REAVERDELI

I cannot belive what I am reading. Even if Fox is getting the money for the FF dvd set.. aren't the actors getting a royalty? Aren't you hurting Joss by doing that?

And if you say it is not wrong, how so? It IS stealing. There is no other thing to call it. Someone else made it. There is a warning saying don't steal it. Piracy = uncreative folks leeching from those who move and change our world.

You cannot justify stealing it. If you hate going to the movie theater, don't go. Wait for the DVD release. If the DVD's are too expensive, get a better job. If you cannot handle it, that does not mean you should steal it. Show some character and integrity.

And title of this post says it all:
v. pi·rat·ed, pi·rat·ing, pi·rates
v. tr.
To attack and rob (a ship at sea).
To take (something) by piracy.
To make use of or reproduce (another's work) without authorization.

I just hope you all get caught, now wouldn't that be shiny.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:34 AM

Your argument came down to "I want to see movies even though I'm going to bad mouth them and I don't want to have to pay for it". If everything you said about movies was true, you could very simply avoid them all together. You don't NEED to watch movies. The industry is not depriving you of water. However, you seem to like movies. You want to watch them. So do I. The thing is I pay for them. I'm not hurting financially. Movie ticket prices don't make me cringe. They did when I was in school though. So, I didn't go to movies. I can probably count the number of movies I went to in my college years on my fingers. I didn't download movies either though. I watched them when they hit tv or if a friend rented them. Which solves your hatered of movie theaters. Just wait for tv or dvd releases of the movies. There is no need to see the movie the second they hit theaters. You could just wait rather than steal.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:44 AM

damn double post that ended up losing my well thought out arguments against piracy and other forms of theft.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:47 AM

No, piracy is wrong. I'm sorry you can't see that.
Remind me not to leave anything valuable where it might be found by someone who can't see the moral problems with stealing it.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
This is a matter of opinion and your over simplification is a joke.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Let's just face it, pirating movies is wrong.

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:16 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I have to admit that, when the show had just been cancelled, and before the DVD set came out, I saw pirated episodes of the series.

It was, at the time, A) the only way I could see the show, and B) the only way I could know the correct order of episodes.

Of course, once the DVD set came out, I immediately purchased it...

But I'd never have known how great Firefly was, and never have purchased the DVD set, if I hadn't watched 'pirated' episodes.

So, I'm a thief. But I don't really feel guilty about it.

Feel free to hide the valuables in your black and white world.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:57 AM

@Fremdfirma:
LOL, you sure know how to word things

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:
I cannot belive what I am reading. Even if Fox is getting the money for the FF dvd set.. aren't the actors getting a royalty? Aren't you hurting Joss by doing that?

No actually. Actors, etc typically get what is known as a "buy out." This means that they get no residules, nor royalties, nor any other payment besides there original paycheck. This cuts down on the costs for the producer as they now don't need the administrative infrastructure to keep track of such things for all time, etc.

And even if they did, the money would be neglegable. As a parallel, in the music industry, ask any artist. They earn next to nothing on the album sales, that is where the producer earns there money. The artist earns there money on concert ticket/merchandise/etc sales.

It is uninformed people like you that end up spreading this propaganda.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:

And if you say it is not wrong, how so? It IS stealing.

Actually, no it isn't. Stealing by definition is taking was does not belong to you. Please note the taking. This means that once I take it, you no longer have it. Thus downloading is not stealing.

If you want to use an actual correct term, you might use, unauthorised copying.

But then again, as I've asked before, what country are you in. Downloading is legal in some countries as it some countries only control unauthorised distribution, and downloading is not distributing. Uploading on the other hand is distributing.

It is subtle differences like these that you're going to have to grasp before you can have a meaningful conversation on this topic.

Please educate yourself before you reply.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

You could just wait rather than steal.

Please refer to my reply to ReaverDeli. EDIT: Knibblet, please do the same.

I also might ask, when did you go to school. As it has only become feasible within the past couple years to do this, it becomes a good question to ask if you even had the option to do this. Christ, bittorrent has been the first p2p sharing capable of doing this on any real scale and it's only been out for what, the past year or two.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:40 AM

I can't really apologize for seeing certain things as Black/White. Theft is one of those.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
Feel free to hide the valuables in your black and white world.

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:
I cannot belive what I am reading. Even if Fox is getting the money for the FF dvd set.. aren't the actors getting a royalty? Aren't you hurting Joss by doing that?

No actually. Actors, etc typically get what is known as a "buy out." This means that they get no residules, nor royalties, nor any other payment besides there original paycheck. This cuts down on the costs for the producer as they now don't need the administrative infrastructure to keep track of such things for all time, etc.

And even if they did, the money would be neglegable. As a parallel, in the music industry, ask any artist. They earn next to nothing on the album sales, that is where the producer earns there money. The artist earns there money on concert ticket/merchandise/etc sales.

It is uninformed people like you that end up spreading this propaganda.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:

And if you say it is not wrong, how so? It IS stealing.

Actually, no it isn't. Stealing by definition is taking was does not belong to you. Please note the taking. This means that once I take it, you no longer have it. Thus downloading is not stealing.

If you want to use an actual correct term, you might use, unauthorised copying.

But then again, as I've asked before, what country are you in. Downloading is legal in some countries as it some countries only control unauthorised distribution, and downloading is not distributing. Uploading on the other hand is distributing.

It is subtle differences like these that you're going to have to grasp before you can have a meaningful conversation on this topic.

Please educate yourself before you reply.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Hello,

Sigmanunki, your logic is exasperating.

"No actually. Actors, etc typically get what is known as a "buy out." This means that they get no residules, nor royalties, nor any other payment besides there original paycheck. This cuts down on the costs for the producer as they now don't need the administrative infrastructure to keep track of such things for all time, etc."

Typically they get a buy out? But not always? Which is the case here? Do you even know?

"And even if they did, the money would be neglegable. As a parallel, in the music industry, ask any artist. They earn next to nothing on the album sales, that is where the producer earns there money. The artist earns there money on concert ticket/merchandise/etc sales."

So, only the producer gets less money. Well, the actors might get less money, but the less money they get is inconsequential.

"Actually, no it isn't. Stealing by definition is taking was does not belong to you. Please note the taking. This means that once I take it, you no longer have it. Thus downloading is not stealing.

If you want to use an actual correct term, you might use, unauthorised copying."

So you're only guilty of copyright infringement, sort of like patent infringement, right?

"But then again, as I've asked before, what country are you in. Downloading is legal in some countries as it some countries only control unauthorised distribution, and downloading is not distributing. Uploading on the other hand is distributing."

Murder is legal in some countries. And of course you couldn't download if no one uploaded. So you're supporting an illegal practice that might be taking money from actors and is definitely taking it from producers, yeah?

So sigmanunki, my problem isn't that you're pirating. I'll never believe that the shit quality pirate copies of movies that float around will ever amount to much.

My problem is that you don't have the straightforwardness to admit that it's illegal and that it is technically wrong.

When I watched commercial free Firefly downloaded from online and shared it with my friends before the DVD came out, I was doing a WRONG thing that was ILLEGAL.

I admit it.

I just don't feel bad about it and don't think it makes me likely to steal anyone's household valuables.

Cop to the same.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:55 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
I can't really apologize for seeing certain things as Black/White. Theft is one of those.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
Feel free to hide the valuables in your black and white world.

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

Lots of folks here downloaded episodes before the DVD came out, Knibblet. Might not want to invite any Browncoats over for tea and crumpets.

Who knows what could end up missing.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:01 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Having just gotten back from a tour in Korea (the veritable headquarters of the pirate DVD ((not counting some other asian countries))) I noticed quite a bit of my fellow airman going downtown and spending 8,000 won (6$) to buy pirated DVDs...I never saw the appeal in owning something somebody recorded (badly, more often than not) in a theater with sometime people getting up in the middle of the movie for whatever reason. The quality was terrible, and the audio even worse. But, there was a large market for it there. I've only downloaded a couple of movies...and those were mostly because I couldn't find them here...(Battle Royale was one of these). It makes me cold to think that someone's first introduction to Serenity and thus to Firefly would be on such a crappy medium.

Cold...

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:09 AM

REAVERDELI

I thought about not responding to your troll. But I could resist, you sounding so smart and all! As for the Royalty issue, I posed it as a QUESTION! HA! So, no I was not spreading misinformation, I was asking and you seem to know it all! Thanks.

As for stealing and piracy not being the same, lets educate ourselves. Read below and see the first definition. Now, what is property? (see the second definition below) Well, it can be a physical thing. A movie is a physical thing, right? A file on a computer is a physical thing, right? But have you heard of intellectual property? That is an idea. You know people can steal ideas, right? That is why they also copyright and Trade Mark these things.

Read definition #1.
steal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals
v. tr.
To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
Definiton #2 (for clarity)
prop·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prpr-t)
n. pl. prop·er·ties

Something owned; a possession.

Now, I could tell you how stupid you are and how that post makes you look moronic, but, well, you posted it, not me. :)

Instead of trying to make me look like an idiot and educate myself, hit ctrl+alt+delte next time you have a brainstorm like that.

reference: http://www.dictionary.com

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:27 AM

SIMONWHO

Okay, easy on the personal insults now guys. Let's not make this place like the official board.

Like it or lump it, pirating is illegal and the mass release of the movie on newsgroups/file sharing will damage the box office.

If you don't like the way the movie is presented at the cinema, that doesn't give you the right in any way, shape or form to steal a copy. And yes, it is stealing. Just because copyright isn't a tangible thing like a pen or a satsuma, that doesn't mean it can't be stolen.

However, there are the occasional grey areas: movies not released or out of print, TV shows that are never likely to see an official release too. Essentially properties that the copyright owners are treating as valueless. Something that certainly could not be said for the cinematic release of Serenity.

Just because you could steal candy from a baby and no-one would know, that doesn't make it any the less wrong.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:42 AM

CERENITY

I can’t believe there is actually a debate surrounding this subject. Piracy is stealing. I can understand those who downloaded something because it wasn’t available to the public, or even burning partial copies of things to entice a future sale…and please note that I said “partial” copies. But mostly what I am reading is several people who are trying to justify the theft of someone else’s hard work. And who cares if the actors do or do not get a portion of the profits. That is totally irrelevant. As an actress myself I know that my place, while most obvious to the public, yes, is only the tip of a very large ice burg. And ultimately it is the people way beneath the surface that determine whether more of said material will be made. And if it good material, they deserve it. Heck, even if it is bad material they deserve it.

Bottom line is people want something for nothing. And that is unreasonable and unethical. You can complain about ticket prices and your “rude audience members”, who I admit, are annoying (I go to horror movies at matinees for precisely that reason), but there are economical AND ethical ways to deal with those problems. And if you care anything at all about what you are watching (and let’s face it, you do or else you wouldn’t waste your time) wouldn’t you want to support that endeavor? Even if it wasn’t great, or the ending really pissed you off (like that of “The Village”), it caught your interest and deserves to be “bought” rather than taken. Everything deserves that. And the idea that Serenity can be stolen or downloaded should anger every browncoat out there, because YOU are part of the reason that it exists to begin with. So in essence, they are stealing from you. And frankly, I care about it too much for it to be taken like that.

Well, I am off…soon to buy another Firefly box set for a friend’s birthday. I think it is my 6th. And I am sure I will pay to see the film several times in September, even though my husband could probably get us in free as manager of the local movie theater. Sorry to get on a rant. I really am a nice person, or so I have been told from time to time.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:34 AM

Simon Who said:

Quote:
Like it or lump it, pirating is illegal and the mass release of the movie on newsgroups/file sharing will damage the box office.

Actually the legality of file sharing in general is still fluid. But that aside, I have yet to see serious evidence that file sharing damages the box office. There is an economic argument to be made on either side of intellectual property. A copyright has never been the same as physical property. First of, intellectual property is time limited. Items of common culture eventually fall into the public domain, parody can 'infringe' on the ownership of characters, titles, the whole nine. Unlike widgets and houses, which you either have or do not have the use of, intellectual property is not diminished absolutely by use of others. This is not a totally simple issue.

Anecdotally, I don't download films or TV, too much work. But I do download music. Does this mean I don't buy music? Absolutely not. I have bought more (and more varied) music since I began downloading music. Furthermore, I have the right to use music I bought as long as I don't make a profit by diminishing the profit of the rights holder. Unless some one can seriously prove that people are damaged by the exchange of information I would suggest we withhold judgment of each other.

Furthermore, in the realm of intellectual property, every artist or inventor is standing on the shoulders of giant. Should Joss have to pay royalties to the rodenberry or lucas estates? Should Lucas pay Buddah? Or the dynasties of Japanese historians? Should architects pay the descendants of Pythagoras? Should GM pay the cave man who invented the wheel? Obviously not. This hyperbole is illustrative of the concept though. Intellectual property is not absolute. It is collaborative, it is derivative, and it is diffuse. It is certainly not black and white.

Still, from a tactical standpoint, don't copy our BDM, or even firefly, unless you think it will somehow get more people to spend more money on the franchise. If Intellectual property isn't protected well enough then you might see less of what you love, what you paid for. Our BDHs do make money this way and, for better or worse, the studios pay them. If we want the franchise to succeed we should behave in whatever manner we believe will make it more profitable for all involved. In this case right and wrong (morally) don't enter into it.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:34 AM

D'oh! spastic double post.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:41 AM

SIMONWHO

>> Should Joss have to pay royalties to the rodenberry or lucas estates? Should Lucas pay Buddah? Or the dynasties of Japanese historians? Should architects pay the descendants of Pythagoras? Should GM pay the cave man who invented the wheel? Obviously not.

Of course but that is why copyright expires. (Hold on, there's a rant coming.) Or rather copyright would expire if your gutless and corrupt Congress weren't so deeply in the pockets of media companies that they have again extended copyright laws well beyond their designed lifespan.

Copyright should be finite but as long as Disney owns ABC who can broadcast damaging reports about your local representative, Steamboat Willie isn't coming out of copyright any time soon. And what's with giving people who film in cinemas a 5 year prison sentence? If you ran a family over while blind drunk on drugs, you'd get less than that.

As for whether pirating damages the box office, well, I'm not sure. But how many people do you know that have downloaded a movie and gone "Wow, I want to see that at the cinema"?

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:48 AM

CEDRIC

I used to pirate music and videos indiscriminately. I gave myself a lot of excuses: I was a poor college student; I wasn't *really* taking anything; no one was suffering because of what I did.

Then I made my first album as an indie musician. (Note that term "independent"--hmm, kind of like a Browncoat.) I put in months of hard work and gambled a thousand of my own dollars, which I got back in ten dollar increments. (BTW, I got off pretty cheap at only a thousand. My next album cost three thousand.) It completely changed my attitude about people who pirate music and videos. I'm pretty sure they go to a special hell.

Sure, it's a little different for big companies like Fox and Universal. But let's face it: Whether we get a second Firefly movie, or even a new series, will depend on the success of the first movie, both at the box office and on DVD. So no matter how you feel about video piracy, it's in the best interest of every Browncoat to avoid any activity that will decrease sales. We should see the movie as often as we can afford and make the DVD our default Christmas gift. (And don't tell me you can't afford it--I'm an indie musician; I know all about being poor.)

So let's make this abundantly clear. Joss and all of our BDH's do the job, and they get paid. And we're the ones who pay them.

Keep flyin',

Cedric

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:56 AM

Nice!

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:11 AM

Quote:
As for whether pirating damages the box office, well, I'm not sure. But how many people do you know that have downloaded a movie and gone "Wow, I want to see that at the cinema"?

Well, I don't know about this personally, again downloading films is too much work, but I know people who have downloaded films, especially big effects films that they had to see in the theatre. In music, I know I personally have bought albums I never would have bought if I had not downloaded a song I liked.

It is not all downside for a film or a song if it is downloaded. For music especially, downloading is free distributed advertising. For movies this can be dangerous because you get a version of the entire product when you download.
But even still... Iknow that even if I downloaded sin city, or star wars or serenity, I would still pay to see it on the big screen, and I would still buy the dvd.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:19 AM

I went to school from 1999 - 2003. There were easy ways to download plenty of media.

For instance I had every episode of Firefly downloaded. Was it wrong? Yep. The reason I don't feel bad about it was that there was no other option available to obtain the episodes. I've bought 3 box sets of Firefly since. Have I ever downloaded a theatrical release movie? Nope. I could get those by legal means. That's where my line is. Doesn't make it the same as what's morally or legally right.

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Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:22 AM

I think that's a good line, Zeek.

Perhaps that's my real problem with piracy. Pirates aren't selling something that you can't get anywhere else at any price -- rather, they're stealing something and selling it cheap. They're sneaking money out of the pockets of folks who created the now stolen product.

I never downloaded the eps before the DVD. Why? Because I don't trust pirates or their motives. How could I trust someone who created an illegal file which deliberately flaunts property laws?

If they'll do that, what are they hiding inside that data stream? What am I downloading into my computer besides video and audio?

There's my problem with pirates. If your video or music is available commercially, there's no justification for paying someone who is selling you a stolen product.

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

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Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:01 AM

WHOISRIVER

Well, let me put it this way. Universal have invested (well over) $40,000,000 of cash into this movie. For fans, they have been running test screenings so they can see the movie early.

Any fan filming the movie so Asian pirates can put in on DVD 5 months early for sale as a crap unfinished cam copy....

Anybody failing to see how that is a PISS POOR way to pay back Universal for the support they have shown Joss, when nobody else would, is missing a screw.

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

"No actually. Actors, etc typically get what is known as a "buy out." This means that they get no residules, nor royalties, nor any other payment besides there original paycheck. This cuts down on the costs for the producer as they now don't need the administrative infrastructure to keep track of such things for all time, etc."

Typically they get a buy out? But not always? Which is the case here? Do you even know?

It is the standard. So, I may assume with confidence that it is true.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

"And even if they did, the money would be neglegable. As a parallel, in the music industry, ask any artist. They earn next to nothing on the album sales, that is where the producer earns there money. The artist earns there money on concert ticket/merchandise/etc sales."

So, only the producer gets less money. Well, the actors might get less money, but the less money they get is inconsequential.

If you had a point here, I can't extract it.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

"Actually, no it isn't. Stealing by definition is taking was does not belong to you. Please note the taking. This means that once I take it, you no longer have it. Thus downloading is not stealing.

If you want to use an actual correct term, you might use, unauthorised copying."

So you're only guilty of copyright infringement, sort of like patent infringement, right?

Again, in which country. *sigh* You just don't get that the US's laws are not the standard. You just don't get the intricate subtleties of this situation.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

"But then again, as I've asked before, what country are you in. Downloading is legal in some countries as it some countries only control unauthorised distribution, and downloading is not distributing. Uploading on the other hand is distributing."

Murder is legal in some countries. And of course you couldn't download if no one uploaded. So you're supporting an illegal practice that might be taking money from actors and is definitely taking it from producers, yeah?

Apples and oranges. You cannot compare downloading to murdur. Your point there is moot.

Also, refer to country and subtle remarks above.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

My problem is that you don't have the straightforwardness to admit that it's illegal and that it is technically wrong.

It is illegal in your view, from your country. As soon as you admit that there are other countries in the world with different laws the better. Your country is not the standard nor is your "morality."

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I just don't feel bad about it and don't think it makes me likely to steal anyone's household valuables.

This we can agree on.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:

As for stealing and piracy not being the same, lets educate ourselves.

Let's.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:

Read below and see the first definition. Now, what is property? (see the second definition below) Well, it can be a physical thing. A movie is a physical thing, right?

Actually no. The movie is something that is on a physical medium. The DVD is a physical thing. It just happens to contain a movie.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:

A file on a computer is a physical thing, right?

Similarly, a file on a computer is not a physical thing. A file on a computer is a certain arrangment of 0's and 1's on a physical thing called a hdd (or tape or zip or...). Depending on what filesystem is being used, how it is being stored, etc, it can be any number of different combinations of 0's and 1's.

I could go on as to how you are wrong that a file is a physical thing, but I'll just state that the file is not physical, the hdd is (or tape or zip or...).

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:

But have you heard of intellectual property? That is an idea. You know people can steal ideas, right? That is why they also copyright and Trade Mark these things.

There we go with using the term stealing again.

FOR ME TO TAKE SOMETHING FROM YOU, I MUST ACTUALLY TAKE IT FROM YOU. AS IN YOU NO LONGER HAVE IT. ARE YOU GETTING THAT YET?

You have clearly tread in a domain in which you are ill equiped to argue. Please leave this to those of us that actually know something about the technology used.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

Like it or lump it, pirating is illegal and the mass release of the movie on newsgroups/file sharing will damage the box office.

Please see my previous posts.

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

However, there are the occasional grey areas:

Holy crap! Someone admitted that this is a grey area!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

Something that certainly could not be said for the cinematic release of Serenity.

I haven't read one post that stated any intention (implied or not) to download Serenity. In fact, everyone has stated that they're going to see it along with many that they bring with them. So, why you are stating this is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

Just because you could steal candy from a baby and no-one would know, that doesn't make it any the less wrong.

You comparision is moot.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cerenity:

And if you care anything at all about what you are watching (and let’s face it, you do or else you wouldn’t waste your time) wouldn’t you want to support that endeavor?

Please read my previous posts.

There are many ways in which we can support an endeavour.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

I used to pirate music and videos indiscriminately. I gave myself a lot of excuses: I was a poor college student; I wasn't *really* taking anything; no one was suffering because of what I did.

Then I made my first album as an indie musician.

Not to shit on you, but seriously, how can you say as an indie, that the downloading of music is effecting you to any large extent.

That's like saying if I wrote some program and charged $10 bucks for it and I didn't earn my time back that people are pirating my program and thus piracy is a huge problem and the reason why I'm not getting the money I deserve.

Seriously

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

Whether we get a second Firefly movie, or even a new series, will depend on the success of the first movie, both at the box office and on DVD.
[snip]
So let's make this abundantly clear. Joss and all of our BDH's do the job, and they get paid. And we're the ones who pay them.

I don't think anyone here has stated (or implied) differently.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by xenocide:

Well, I don't know about this personally, again downloading films is too much work, but I know people who have downloaded films, especially big effects films that they had to see in the theatre. In music, I know I personally have bought albums I never would have bought if I had not downloaded a song I liked.

Indeed! I remember reports when that whole fiasco began (thank you very much Lars...

) that sales actually increased... after Lars, not so much.

I think I would be time to mention though that these industries have shouted that that the sky is falling many times before. Remember when recordable Beta/VHS/CD/DVD/etc came out? Remember when the industries said that this would be the end of them, etc b/c of this? Well it's been some time and they're still around and thriving. So, much for that.

And for those that don't think that anyone is paying for people that download stuff. Perhaps you should look into the taxes that are on writtable media. There is a specific one that all that money goes to the entertainment industry b/c of the possibility of people downloading stuff, etc. So, whether you like it or not, those people are paying something for it.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:16 AM