Piracy and My Favorite Show: Firefly by EndangeredMassa

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Piracy and My Favorite Show: Firefly

POSTED BY: ENDANGEREDMASSA
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 16:42
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 10677
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Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:35 AM

To Sir Troll Sigmundicky,
It is a amazing that you argue so logically but you really keep saying the same thing. Could it be that copying is not stealing? Let's review:

Stealing:
To take (the property of another) without right or permission. (that is an ENGLISH definition, not AMERICAN)

DO YOU HAVE THE FILE/MOVIE? If yes, proceed.

DID YOU TELL YOUR FTP PROGRAM TO TAKE IT FROM ANOTHER SIGHT? If yes, keep proceeding.

DID YOU HAVE PERMISSION TO TAKE SAID FILE?

There is no gray area. You like to argue. You keep saying (cryptically) it depends on what country you live in, like if we live in the US, we have forgotten all about the rest of the world. What country do you live in? Enlighten us more about this invisible anarchy that is functioning in our world.

Go read Atlas Shrugged. Your kind of attitude helps stop the world from turning.

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:09 AM

SHINY

Let's try to take it easy, folks. Here are a few things to keep in mind:

1) Even though "intellectual property" is a legal construct and not the same thing as physical property, the law currently acknowledges an intellectual property right

2) Well-intentioned, intelligent, ethical-minded people can differ on the degree to which "intellectual property" *ought* to be protected, and *for how long* (that 2nd point is the one that really gets me)

3) While unauthorized copying does not deprive someone else of their copy (and is therefore potentially less bad than stealing a physical object), it does make possible thousands or millions of copies which is not possible to do with physical objects (so is potentially worse than stealing a single physical object). In the end, they are two very different things and it's better to evaluate the moral and ethical issues separately. (See points #1 and #2)

4) 99% of the people on this forum love Firefly, care about the success of Serenity, and understand that the movie's financial success is key to getting more Firefly/Serenity from Joss.

5) Disagreeing on point #2 does not necessarily mean point #4 does not apply.

We now return you to your previously scheduled flame-fest.

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 11:10 AM

XENOCIDE

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:

Stealing:
To take (the property of another) without right or permission. (that is an ENGLISH definition, not AMERICAN)

The key word you seem to be ignoring here is right. The definition specifically say permission OR right. As in you can have rights without permission. Probably (or syg) you have have no right to a new movie without permission. But your definition of steals doesn't prove that at all.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:06 PM

CEDRIC

<>

Hmm, well, when I'm trying to figure out how to pay the water bill because I'm nearly out of money, or even trying to figure out how to buy the next box of CDs because fans want to buy them, well, then yeah, I think folks making illegal copies of my music rather than paying me for it certainly is affecting me.

But my point was not really that piracy is affecting me--it's that piracy looks extremely different when you're the artist whose work is getting ripped off. When you're sitting there hoping that enough people will like your art that you'll manage to turn a profit on a huge investment someday, piracy starts looking pretty damn mean. It's certainly not something I'd do to any artist I really like and respect, and I'd have to class Joss Whedon and all of the Firefly team in that category.

"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:29 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I haven't read one post that stated any intention (implied or not) to download Serenity. In fact, everyone has stated that they're going to see it along with many that they bring with them. So, why you are stating this is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
If anyone pirates this movie I'll personally never forgive them. Then I'll download it cause I really really wanna see it again and again. Which I doubt will stop me from going again and again when the movie hits theaters.

So, you're just not reading. I think I've found the problem.

You're taking that quote out of context.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:37 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:
To Sir Troll Sigmundicky,

I find it funny that you try to take some sort of moral high ground here yet say this. I also find it interesting that because I've taken a position against yours that I'm immediately labeled a troll. Perhaps that is another thing that you should look up.

And by the way, if you would have bothered to look at my profile, you'd know that I'm in Canada. Please note that we currently have reasonable laws regarding copyright unlike the US (ie your DMCA).

Our laws are against distribution (uploading).

And the rest of your post is illogical drivel. Learn about what you speak of before you open your month. You're only making yourself look like a fool.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 6:04 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

Hmm, well, when I'm trying to figure out how to pay the water bill because I'm nearly out of money, or even trying to figure out how to buy the next box of CDs because fans want to buy them, well, then yeah, I think folks making illegal copies of my music rather than paying me for it certainly is affecting me.

Do you know that this is happening? I'm just wondering, because since you are still an indie there is the serious question as to if people even know you exist.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

But my point was not really that piracy is affecting me--it's that piracy looks extremely different when you're the artist whose work is getting ripped off.

And what would you say if I downloaded your music and started to come see you in the clubs, bought you album, etc. There is a flip side to this you know.

I for one have started to try before I buy because of the situation. ie Back when I was in highschool if I like a song on the radio, I would buy the album and like most, if not all, of the tracks on it. Now, if I buy an album b/c of 1 or 2 tracks, I still just like those 1 or 2 tracks. This makes it about $20 or $10 per song respectively. I cannot justify paying that much money for that little. Thus I try before I buy.

You seem to fail to understand that downloading is not inherently evil. It can be a great publisitly tool and many artists have embraced it and encouraged it.

I'm also wondering at this point, if it were 15 yrs ago, if you'd be saying the same thing about people using tapes to "pirate" your music.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

It's certainly not something I'd do to any artist I really like and respect, and I'd have to class Joss Whedon and all of the Firefly team in that category.

And no-one is saying any different in this specific case.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 6:15 AM

SIGMANUNKI

The general case here is me protecting my money. Me refusing to buy complete crap fooled by misleading comercials, etc that I cannot return.

You people in the US talk hard about freedom, etc. But do you even know what it means to fight for it. I mean really, beyond that of bullets and bombs.

I have tried not buying crap, to weed it out, to only rent DVD's and on and on. Did this help? No, the problem got worse. There is more crap being produced now more than ever before.

So, now I try before I buy. It is a valid form of civil disobedience, the only option left that might change things. And I'll say it one more time:

Once they start producing movies, etc where the majority are actually good, worth it movies, I'll stop downloading.

A perfect example is the movie Robots. This could have been a great movie. There was a lot of great ideas, etc in it. But it was executed in a way that you could see that the producer didn't care about making a good movie. They only cared to make the movie good enough that people would watch it and they'd make money. So, the story and scenes were dijoint to the point of the movie being a disappointing experience.

Again:

Fix that, and I'll stop downloading.

My demands are simple and reasonable.

Feel free to let fly any parting remarks. This is my last post here as all that reply don't seem to even acknowledge that I have a point. I leave you to you irrationality.

Good day.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:40 AM

JTHOS1155

OKAYYY...
I AGREE THAT PIRACY IS A BAD THING. TO A DEGREE.
BUT, SEEING THAT TICKETS FOR THE PRE-SCREENING SOLD OUT IN THREE HOURS, YOU WOULD BE DOING ALL OF US A FAVOR BY ATTENDING.

MAYBE THEY WILL OFFER MORE SHOWINGS TO DISCOURAGE JUST THIS KIND OF ACTIVITY.

YOU HAVE MY EMAIL...

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 4:16 PM

REAVERDELI

I have an idea. Just pirate Canadian stuff. That sounds fair.

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Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:55 PM

STAGGERLY

I think the problem people have with your argument, Sigmanunk, is that you make piracy sound like some noble crusade against the tyrannical music and movie industries and their very personal oppression of you, the working man. In some countries (but not all!) that's called a "rationalization."

Let's say you work at McDonalds. Mopping the floor. I'm a guy who comes in with muddy shoes all the time, and I never buy anything! Day in and day out you have to scrub up my muddy size-twelves, and not a cent of my money goes anywhere near your paycheck. You're very frustrated. "Hey, pal, buy a hamburger or get outta here," you say to me. "At these prices? Stop trying to violate my rights as a consumer!" I respond as I Texas Two-Step dirt and gravel all over your pristine floor. Boy, what a jerk I'd be.

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 3:36 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Staggerly:
I think the problem people have with your argument, Sigmanunk, is that you make piracy sound like some noble crusade against the tyrannical music and movie industries and their very personal oppression of you, the working man. In some countries (but not all!) that's called a "rationalization."

Let's say you work at McDonalds. Mopping the floor. I'm a guy who comes in with muddy shoes all the time, and I never buy anything! Day in and day out you have to scrub up my muddy size-twelves, and not a cent of my money goes anywhere near your paycheck. You're very frustrated. "Hey, pal, buy a hamburger or get outta here," you say to me. "At these prices? Stop trying to violate my rights as a consumer!" I respond as I Texas Two-Step dirt and gravel all over your pristine floor. Boy, what a jerk I'd be.

Hello,

I suppose he's saying you'd be a jerk but not a criminal.

Sigmanunki believes that selling crack cocaine should be illegal, but that buying it should be legal.

There are lots of people who feel that way. Users, mostly. But I admit I feel that way too, if only because it'd increase my chances at advancement if the world was stoned out of their gourd.

The argument is that Sigmanunki's Canadian self can facilitate a crime by doing business with criminals (the uploaders) and be clean himself (because he is a downloader, and they're peachy-keen.)

But copyright infringement really is most like Patent infringement. Someone invents and produces something. Someone else comes along and produces copies of said product, without changing it one iota.

Now, Canada seems to treat this copying issue just like patent infringement, really. If I buy a glow-clean mop copy from China, it's the glow-clean mop copier in China that did something illegal, not me.

I'm just the guy that facilitates him.

In our draconian society here in America, we punish both the copier and the user.

In the enlightened North, only the copier is punished.

And somewhere in the world, not even the copiers are punished.

Try before you Buy is a valid concern, incidentally.

In the draconian American society, the try before you buy market is called radio, rentals, and PAID downloads for music.

For movies, it's Rentals, HBO, and commercial television.

Sigmanunki might make a good lawyer. He can argue on the case that if he's doing something that's legal in his corner of the 'verse, then it isn't wrong. Ethics is washed away with, "The people I care about might a little bit less money, but not enough to matter."

And of course, all this copying is really just free advertising for the product that people will go out and buy, inspired by the copy.

And sometimes it's true. And sometimes it's not.

But we'll overlook the not, won't we?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 3:42 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverdeli:
... Just pirate Canadian stuff ...

But who'd want to watch actors like Nathan Fillion and Jewel Staite?

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:28 AM

SIMONWHO

And Shatner. Don't forget the Shatner.

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:09 AM

PURPLEBELLY

And Dark Angel, and Dead Like Me and Wonderfalls. I'm supposed to be a mean old man and I can't forget Dhavernas and Leitso - they're just too cute

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:36 AM

BLINKER

Quote:
I can't really apologize for seeing certain things as Black/White. Theft is one of those.

Even of nutrient bars, hospital supplies, and prototype lasers?

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:16 AM

RIVERNOT

I'll preface this with saying I'm not wishing to start any kind of argument. I respect your opinions, I find much of what you say intriguing. There are just a couple of things I'd like to say.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

Let's just face it, pirating movies is wrong.

This is a matter of opinion and your over simplification is a joke. ... I can see the difference between illegal and wrong, can't you? ... Laws regarding this differ widly from country to country.

Yes, there is a difference between illegal and wrong. However, if you are breaking the law, regardless of the country, you are commiting a wrong. The whole "my truth vs. your truth" is a post modenernism argument that doesn't really change the way things are, just how we wish they are.

Quote:

My point is that the movie theaters are not making an effort to make going to movies affordable nor enjoyable.

I don't know about what it's like outside the US, but theaters in the US are not the ones responsible for how much we're paying to see a movie. With the advent of the megaplexes, the theater owners have to show the movie many, may times before they start seeing any of the money from that movie. Most of the money is going to the studios/distributors. This is part of the reason there is so much schlock (the ones you mentioned are prime examples) being shown in the theaters. They know those flicks will bring in a lot of people/money and will offset the cost of showing that movie vs. a great movie with little interest from the general public. It's a sad situation.

This is the main reason I'm against pirating the BDM. If a pirated copy is enough to sate someone's appetite for the move (yes, there are those for whom this would be enough) until it's out on DVD, then they're not going to pay to see it in the theaters, making it less likely the theaters will keep it any longer than needed to pay off the studio/distributor. I'd hate to see the BDM being in the theaters 2 weeks and then gone because the theater owners couldn't afford to keep it. Any pirating would cut into the number of tickets they're selling.

I completely agree with you that the movie makers need to do a better job. But, as you stated, they're making movies to the least common denominator. And face it, the least common denominator is a pretty big segment of the population and the segment that WILL spend their money on garbage. That's why we need to stand behind those who are trying to make REAL movies, and a way to stand behind them is by not pirating or encouraging pirating of their flims.

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Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:46 PM

STAGGERLY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I suppose he's saying you'd be a jerk but not a criminal.

Is that what I was saying? I can't really tell when I re-read it. I should really leave the analogies to more capable minds

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverNot:
That's why we need to stand behind those who are trying to make REAL movies, and a way to stand behind them is by not pirating or encouraging pirating of their flims.

Very good point. These days when studios are more interested in appeasing the whims of the masses than finding talented artists to tell good stories, media consumption is now more than ever a political statement.

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Monday, May 16, 2005 2:10 PM

CEDRIC

SigmaNunki,

You're not really getting my point--and since part of my point is that this whole issue looks different to the artist, I guess I really can't expect you to understand.

I'll try to make this clear--

I never said that downloading was inherently evil. In fact, I have a number of my songs available for free download, specifically for the reasons you mentioned: I want people to check them out and become fans of my music.

I am, however, talking about piracy, specifically pirating whole albums, which I consider to be the equivalent of pirating an entire movie. That is what you were proposing to do with our BDM, right? Or were you perhaps planning to pirate it so that you could watch a few scenes and decide whether you want to pay to watch the whole thing? Hmm, isn't that what they make previews for . . .

As for your question of whether it would have bothered me for people to do pirate my music with cassette tapes--absolutely! Let me tell you, when I started, I was peddling cassette tapes, and the *thought* of someone making illegal copies instead of buying it made me stop doing precisely that with other musician's material.

Did any of the musicians whose music I pirated starve because I did so? No. Have I starved because people have pirated mine? No.

--But here's the point you're not getting: That doesn't make it right. It's the principle.

"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."

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Monday, May 16, 2005 6:11 PM

SIGMANUNKI

I'm breaking my silence for this one post, I'm only replying to you b/c... read below. The rest of the idiots here just aren't reading my posts and/or don't have enough brain power to digest the ideas contained therein.

You people disappoint me. Most can't even acknowledge that I've got a point. Most can't even acknowledge that illegal != wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

I am, however, talking about piracy, specifically pirating whole albums, which I consider to be the equivalent of pirating an entire movie. That is what you were proposing to do with our BDM, right? Or were you perhaps planning to pirate it so that you could watch a few scenes and decide whether you want to pay to watch the whole thing? Hmm, isn't that what they make previews for . . .

Reaons:
Quite frankly, after my last post, I'll cite those posts as proof positive of the irrationality of the people in this thread and b/c quite frankly you [Cedric] are just:
1) not reading my posts
2) are functionally illiterate
3) are only reading what you want to read
4) have the attention span of a cronically depressed lemming and can't remember what I've written.

Pick any 1 or more of the above. Proof below.

My 1st post:
"""
That all being said, Serenity has by default entered category (4).
"""
Category 4 being:
"""
4) See in theater (and of course, will buy)
"""
Also,
"""
So, barring myself not being in a country that won't have Serenity for a *long* time after initial opening in North America, I'll be giving Joss my money. And even then, when it comes out, I'll still give my money anyway upon release wherever I am.

I want more of these.
"""

From my 2nd post:
"""
Also, I as well have already gotten a number of my friends (provided I'm still in the city) to accompany me to Serenity

And even if I'm not, I'll be hounding them to go see it still

"""

In another post, you stated:
"""
Whether we get a second Firefly movie, or even a new series, will depend on the success of the first movie, both at the box office and on DVD.

So let's make this abundantly clear. Joss and all of our BDH's do the job, and they get paid. And we're the ones who pay them.
"""
Which I replied:
"""
I don't think anyone here has stated (or implied) differently.
"""

Again you stated in another post:
"""
It's certainly not something I'd do to any artist I really like and respect, and I'd have to class Joss Whedon and all of the Firefly team in that category.
"""
And I replied:
"""
And no-one is saying any different in this specific case.
"""

I've been quite careful to word things in such a way that explains what I mean and what context I've put it in, etc. So, don't go reading my posts with preconcieved thoughts.

It's clear all of you have done that by your replies which is why I came back. That, and the "I'm putting words in your mouth" crowd is now just plain lying about what I've said.

All this being said, I now go back to my silence. Please actually read what I've written, not imprinting your preconcieved thoughts on my words.

Quite frankly, because of this thread, and the not even having enough respect of a fellow browncoat to even actually read his/her posts, I've lost a lot of faith in this little community.

Also, next time we meet here, I would ask you to actually read what I've written without your predujuce included.

And on that note, I bid you all a fond farewll.

[note]I've unchecked the notify so I won't even receive an email as such. So, hounding me to get back into this thread won't work. Good day.[/note]

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, May 17, 2005 8:10 AM

CEDRIC

To anyone still reading this thread, since SigmaNunki has packed up his toys to go home:

I find it amusing that SN accuses the rest of us of putting words in his mouth and of misinterpreting his posts due to preconceived notions--when that's exactly what his comments indicate he is guilty of.

You'll note that in none of my posts did I say that illegal = wrong. Instead I tried to explain why piracy is a bad idea, both for the artist and the fan.

Clearly, SN realized that people here were not going to agree with him about pirating the BDM. (One wonders why he was seeking approval, when he was so sure he was right in the first place.) When he reached that realization, he accused us all of not being smart enough to understand him, heaped on a few more personal attacks, and then stomped off in a huff, apparently feeling that refusing to be a part of this debate means he got the last word.

I'm curious to see whether he'll reply, since he's already announced that he's no longer paying any attention to what happens here.

"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."

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Tuesday, May 17, 2005 2:14 PM

REAVERDELI

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
The rest of the idiots here just aren't reading my posts and/or don't have enough brain power to digest the ideas contained therein.

You are just a Troll. Like I said before. We all read what you said. Just because some of us disagree with you makes us idiots? You discredit yourself in waves. You don't need help. You need tact.

Now I am done with this topic. But, I will stick to my word and not say any more.

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Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:42 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

For the record, Sigmanunki isn't a troll. I believe he has frequented these boards with thoughtful discussions for a long time.

This particular post was ill conceived, but it does not make Sig a bad person.

Nor are the browncoats who disagree with him bad persons, nor a disappointment to the community.

More than his stance on piracy, I frown on Sig's comment that he disapproves of the community.

If Simon and Mal can disagree and nothing more than a fist comes between them, I think Browncoats should be able to disagree and remain friends who respect one another.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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