Could SciFi Fans Pay for Seasons of Firefly? by Jyska

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Could SciFi Fans Pay for Seasons of Firefly?

POSTED BY: JYSKA
UPDATED: Thursday, May 26, 2005 06:54
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Thursday, May 26, 2005 2:50 AM

Assume the cost of Firefly is 1 million per episode. A season of Firefly would cost 22 million dollars. For convenience I will assume another 2 million for admin costs, advertising the program, season dvds and other thankyou merchandise.

I would be happy to pay $240 or $20/month for a season 2 DVD set, and the knowledge that I helped keep this show going. I’d even promise to do so for a total 5 year run of the show. If 100,000 fans felt the same way, we could keep the show going.

There are many more dedicated (and better paid) fans of the show as well, who might well be willing to pay $2400, or $200/month, if it included extras like permission to visit the set on certain days, or banquet with the stars, or ability to buy a sponsor jacket. Higher levels of support might also include some kind of residual payback if the show became commercially successful enough. (Others could get a sticker or something for a $24 donation.)

Even if the fans came up with the cash to pay for only part of the show, the rest could still be more conventionally funded. I would like to see an ongoing foundation to handle this kind of financing, which could also be used to fund other network abandoned, fans adored projects.

Im tired of being a disgruntled fan, at the mercy of networks for what I want to see.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:28 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

This has been discussed before, and to me it seems a good idea, we could each chip in a bit to make the show and then sell the DVDs on Amazon, perhaps get some of that money back. Sort of like investing except with little hope of a return. Actually I think any money made would go to the next season so that we wouldn’t need to pay so much for that one.

The difference would be that instead of paying for the show afterwards, like when normally buying something to watch, the money would have to be put in up front.

At the moment I am an unemployed and chronically lazy college student, the tuition is getting me into debt already, so I probably can’t contribute much even after I change the unemployed part, but what use is money if you don’t spend it on something worthwhile?

As an author with a semi-existential way of looking at fiction continuing the series is a worthwhile cause even more so than just supporting a show. I told a friend once that she had to continue her story because if she didn’t the characters were lost to the world. If the crew isn’t living their lives on screen they don’t exist anymore, they’re dead. I don’t want them dead, not until they’ve lived a while at least.

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I want to do this, not just for the show but so that someday when I’m a math and English professor with my novel still unfinished I can look back and say that in some small part I made a difference in the world and season two of Firefly is my legacy.

Everyone wants to be a part of something that is larger than themselves, this can be ours.

A way to make a difference. Not some scheme to change the world with political maneuvering or environmental protest, but contributing to the one thing that has always been there: entertainment, the stuff that touches hearts and minds.

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You think it would take 100,000 people willing to spend $20 a month. If that’s the case than it means actual work, going out and finding these people because I doubt you will find them online, setting up accounts that will house the money and someone to actually talk to Joss about doing it.

I’m willing to do whatever is asked of me, and I’m lazy.

All that I ask is that others seriously try to do the same instead of dismissing it with a simple, “That would be nice.”

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:30 AM

JARED

Quote:
Originally posted by Jyska:
Assume the cost of Firefly is 1 million per episode. A season of Firefly would cost 22 million dollars. For convenience I will assume another 2 million for admin costs, advertising the program, season dvds and other thankyou merchandise.

Last number I read was 2mill/episode, but I guess the other 2 will compensate for it. There will also be initial costs to rebuild the sets (unless they are mobile or Universal takes over production and still has the sets). So it's probably much closer to 50million just to produce the show.

Quote:
I would be happy to pay $240 or $20/month for a season 2 DVD set, and the knowledge that I helped keep this show going.

Hm, with some 210000 other fans paying $240.. or maybe 10000 fans paying around $20-25 a month.

Quote:
Even if the fans came up with the cash to pay for only part of the show, the rest could still be more conventionally funded.

That would be the more interesting part. Once it starts to actually make money the costs could be reduced. Might still be far from self-financing, though.

But seeing how this already failed for Enterprise and how they probably had a much bigger fan base.. of course, at least Firefly fans haven't been exposed to the lameness that was Voyager and Enterprise.

Problem is that you would need a ton of cash to even get started. Imagine 20000 fans paying $20. 400k won't get you anywhere, considering that the pilot already cost 10mill. As some kind of international project it might be an interesting experiment, but how to distribute the show? How to convince companies it is reaching enough people to make commercials a worthwhile investment?

Also, don't underestimate the human nature of "I'm paying for this, so I want to have some say in how it's done", which could quickly cause a lot of people to stop supporting the project if they don't get what they want. Already bad enough when it's a single studio or network.

http://festini.device-zero.de

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:44 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

To Jared

Do not talk about why it can not be done (which to be fair you were not actually doing) talk about how it could be done. Serenity is part of a three-movie contract (right?), if Serenity does well two more movies will be made. It takes time to make movies, that is time to start collecting.

If you say it will take 50 million than help me crunch the numbers, find out how many fans it would take to make the show if we limit to twenty to thirty dollars a month over the course of how long it takes to make a two more movies.

No one ever got something done by saying, “It’s been tried before and failed.” Things are done by saying, “It was tried before. This is why it did not work, and this is what we will do to stop it from happening again.”

You need faith to do anything, start off with the assumption that it can and will be done, and then figure out how it will have been done.

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As for human nature, people rise to the level of expectation, for the most part. Start off by saying, "You get no say, it will be as Joss and the like will it."

From that point on just point to Ray Charles whenever someone says, “But this isn’t what Joss wanted.”

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To Jared

That wasn’t really a response to you, but you were the first who said something that I could say it to, and I think it needed to be said.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:50 AM

JYSKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Jared:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jyska:

>But seeing how this already failed for Enterprise and how they probably had a much bigger fan base.. of course, at least Firefly fans haven't been exposed to the lameness that was Voyager and Enterprise.

Thanks for telling me about the Trek United effort. They would be a good resource for the nuts and bolts of how to get this started.

TrekUniteds biggest problem, according to the following, was Paramount's reluctance.
http://www.niatu.net/transfictiontrek/newz/save_ent6_en.html. I would want to get some kind of buyin from the powers that be of Firefly that if we did this, they would support it.

Also, I think getting money for a semi-tangible like a DVD set,etc (like National Public Radio) would be easier than just asking for money for the cause.

We will certainly need better numbers for startup cost, minimum and desired budget. And the min number of episodes per year to make it worth their while to do.

Thanks for the feedback.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:51 AM

JARED

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Do not talk about why it can not be done (which to be fair you were not actually doing) talk about how it could be done.

Mostly did it because I had a similar idea of fan-based direct to DVD shows taken apart by numbers and harsh reality.

So, let's say a pilot would be around 7mill (quite a few things shouldn't have to be done again this time). At $30 it requires 233333 fans. So eventually it will mostly require a few hundred fans with well padded wallets willing to pay far more.

First problem. This would require a working refund system. Nobody wants to pay $50 and years later get a mail saying "sorry, couldn't get enough money, have a nice day, we will go and have a nice time with your money". So it would require some legal groundwork to guarantee that everyone get's his money back if this fails. Preferably this system should not create any additional costs for the actual money transfer (or only neglectible fees).

Second, somebody should find out if Joss and the cast are even interested in going back to the tv/dvd format or if they will be kind of tired of Firefly/Serenity after three movies. And of course most of all, if they would be willing to take part in an experiment like this in the first place.

Third, the show would have to make money in some way. DVD sets for half a season sell for roughly $50 over here (well, more like €50, but some are cheaper). Ignoring the production of DVDs in the first place and having to make up numbers for lack of real insight, let's say every sold DVD is a net profit of $15 if we're lucky. We would have to sell about 135000 to finance a single episode, over 1.5mill for half a season. Chances are, the actual sales would only cover a fraction of the production cost. "Eliminating the middle-men" may or may not be a smart idea (cost for the whole infrastructure to handle selling/shipping oneself might cost more than it increases the profit).

Hence, another way to make money from the show would be needed to get/keep things rolling. Commercials would be a logical conclusion, however not too many people are willing to buy DVDs with commercials. Some form of "airing" the show would be required. This would again require infrastructure that might simply be far too expensive to just a single show. One option would be selling it to networks (and yet I would expect there is a good reason why shows aren't produced first and sold later).

Another option would be yet another experiment and offering it for download. Problem with that is that if you make it available in digital form it will be even easier to remove the commercials and spread it via bit torrent. Unlike for networks, it might mean quite real losses for us, so the price per episode should be reasonably low and the quality should be decent. I wouldn't expect more than $3 per episode, even that would mean $33 for half a season which is almost as much as one would pay for the DVD after a while. $2 might be more like it and I'd expect server maintenance and traffic to eat up most of it.

What one could try would require people with a lot of free time and enthusiasm, creating an offer that will cause people to pay a monthly fee of $5-10. Though that would require a professional level product and professionals tend to be payed pretty well. Also, simply creating another Firefly community won't work, as there already are quite a few free ones. Using it as platform to give away the leftovers of production could be interesting to some. Exclusive out takes, screen tests, episode "trailers" or other stuff. Weekly interviews or chats with cast and crew maybe. With about 10-12 people involved it would mean one "extra hour" of work about every 3 months when limited to "mandatory" chat presence, though I wouldn't exclude voluntary participation.

Downside of that last part is numbers. It would require an insane amount of members to finance it and you can't squeeze a quarter of a million people in a single chat room. Even if the hard- and software could handle, no brain on this planet would be able to keep up with it (not to mention no BDH in this 'verse could even remotely begin to answer questions or have a conversation).

Anyway, making plans for it is quite pointless without anyone involved in the production side giving some realistic numbers and data.

http://festini.device-zero.de

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:19 AM

ZEEK

I'm sure there are many hurdles that would need to be jumped. Legal problems, fans expecting certain things for their money, etc.

I'd give my $20 a month though.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:50 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Not to be negative, purely pointing out another hurdle that you would need to overcome...If you could find a network to air the program they'd of course want to make a profit - at least as much as they would from running something else instead, even their lowest $profit show, so you'd probably need to consider their cut in the venture.

Scifi movie music 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:31 AM

JYSKA

Some good observations, but none seem a 'stopper'

1) TrekUnited took paypal donations, and is in process of returning them. We would use a similar model. To paypal, which handles much of Ebay, the amount of money we are discusing is not overwhelming.

2) I would suggest that people would do it for the DVD of the season (or the movie) and knowing it wouldnt have happened without them.

3) Part of the deal would be our vote would be "Whatever joss wants"

4) The networks would still pay for the show if they wanted to show it, their cost per episode would be less because of our contribution. The exact price the network pays to be negotiated by Joss et all. As said, the sci-fi channel doesnt really have the money to produce the show. If the show became the new moneymaker for everyone, we could talk about reimbursement options (ie network paying more per show) but while that should be covered as a contingency, I wouldnt over emphasize it.

5)A network might be quite interested in a show that has a devoted enough following to inspire this kind of loyalty. Most of us would probably watch it on the network, and not wait to get the DVD at the end of the session.

6) Each person who sponsors the show above a particular dollar amount gets a complimentary DVD set (perhaps early, and in a gold box) and possibly other extras. DVDs would still be sold commercially at current prices and arrangements.

This type of financing plan will eventually work, if not for Firefly then for some other fabulous show that we all will love. Its just a matter of getting the details worked out.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:34 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Ask yourself how much you would pay to save the show, not to buy an episode or two, but to save the show. Spread it out, how much would you pay a month to save the show two years from now. How about a dollar and a half? If for every DVD set sold there was one person who was willing to pay that much, and the figure of 200,000 sets sold is somewhat accurate, that is what it would take to get your figure of 7 million for a pilot.

Of course many people bought more than one and $36 over the course of two years is a lot of money. A DVD boxed set costs $34.99 on Amazon, which is two dollars and six cents per episode (if you count Serenity as two.) At that rate it means that fans are already to spend a combined total of four hundred twelve thousand dollars per episode.

I know; it’s barely 20% of the way there, but hopefully people are willing to spend a bit more.

That twenty dollars a month JYSKA mentioned, would cover twenty three episodes and the 2 million for administration we said to set aside.

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You are right, someone needs to ask the cast and crew if they are willing, but not until we know whether or not it can be done. Can you get 200,000 people to pay $20 a month for 23 episodes a year, or $10.44 per episode?

I’d want to ask at least two hundred of a random selection of fans and then find out how many fans there are long before I spoke to the people making the show. Just sending a letter their way isn’t going to do any good, as has been said: it’s been tried before and nothing came of it.

Just finding a random selection of fans means offline work, you can’t base your judgement on the online population.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:54 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I think everyone is thinking of going for too much. Don’t think about Networks at this point, think about just making the shown ad selling it, episode by episode on DVD. If for every DVD set that has been bought there is one DVD of the episode bought it would need to cost 1 bit over ten dollars per episode.

Think of it like that, no donations or whatnot. After the pilot is made simply sell it by DVD, if a network wants it they can pay for it just like any other show they didn’t produce, but start off simple. You know the number of DVDs that can be sold, factor in the cost of a DVD, put in the cost of an episode, and figure out what it takes. It is my understanding that producing a DVD is not expensive, they just charge more because they can.

For comparison, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN VOL. 9: SKIN DEEP out yesterday costs $10, the extended cut of Stripes coming out on June 7 costs $20. National Treasure, been out for 23 days, costs $30.

So, if you marketed it like a comic book you would get back the cost of the episode, but not of the DVDs themselves. If you sold them in groups of two and market like Stripes it is the same thing. If you did it like National Treasure (in groups of two) you would make back the cost of the episode and the DVDs themselves.

Problem being, you probably still have to sell them through somebody, thus slashing the profit.

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Why not just take that idea, find the problems, and then fix them. Save the trouble of needing to air it at all, if the cast is willing. Joss himself said that when they were filming they felt like they were doing it not for the series but instead for the DVD to come.

Donations would only be needed to augment the sales when they didn’t work right.

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This is all after the initial cost of the pilot.

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