Of Gravity-Drives and Inertial Dampers by PurpleYin

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Of Gravity-Drives and Inertial Dampers

POSTED BY: PURPLEYIN
UPDATED: Thursday, May 26, 2005 16:41
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5945
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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:30 PM

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place, im new here and have no idea where stuff belongs.
So I was in the middle of answering a really boring exam question today (on a pleasant side note, my exams are finally over! Woo!) When it hit me-
All these tiny niggling questions I had about firefly slotted together and answered each other!

I suppose there were only really three questions, and the unifying solution might not be the one the script writers go with, but it holds true with what I’ve seen of the series.

1)How come all the planets, and even the moons seem to exert a gravity of around 1G even though they must have different masses?

2)How can the firefly accelerate at the rate seen in the CGI clips without turning the crew to smush?

3)How come in ‘Out of Gas’, although the main power grid was offline, the artificial gravity remained online?

The answer would be exotic matter! Exotic matter is a catchall phrase to call any matter that doesn’t follow standard laws of physics. Dark matter is a fine example- 99% of the matter required to hold our galaxy together…isn’t there.

So imagine if in firefly they harvest or create (using gnarly particle accelerators or whatnot) exotic matter that has a much greater gravitational pull than normal matter (heck, it could be dark matter)?

If they settled on a small moon, and wanted a gravity of 1G, they pump the core full of this exotic matter, making it pull like a big planet- its like interstellar plastic surgery!

And now comes the famed ‘gravity drive’ of firefly- it could be both an artificial gravity emitter, and an inertial damper!
Imagine the hull of the ship was filled with a grid of pipes filled with this exotic-matter, and when stationary, it is all pumped to the bottom of the ship, so people can walk around as though on the surface of a planet. There would be no energy drain once the matter is moved to the bottom of the ship, so the gravity would stay ‘on’ even if the engine cut out.
Now imagine you accelerate forward really fast- relative to the ship, you go flying back, right? Its just regular inertia. Now imagine if the gravity drive is programmed to compensate by pumping some of the exotic matter to the front of the ship- inertia pulls you back, but the gravity pulls you forward- TADAA! An inertial damper!

So, what do you think?

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:59 PM

SAMURAIX47

I would think that if you start messing with the gravity pull of a moon, which may be planet sized to begin with, then you could very well mess up its orbital mechanics. Mess with one moon and you could mess up the whole satellite configuration around the planet causing collisions and impacts... messy.

I think that with any moon or planetary body with enough mass to hold an atmosphere, say from .7g and up, that you would not really see a significant difference in the way people move about. People living on said locations would get used to the gravity and their bodies would learn to handle it and move about in what would seem like normal motion to anybody.

Smaller moons or satellites with less than .5g then you can have that slow motion, hopping look.

Of course this is for visual purposes only in a fictional 'verse as seen on tv or movies... not the real world as we have not really been to other planets yet to really see what it would look like.

Jaymes

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 6:55 PM

CALHOUN

Quote:
PurpleYin wrote:
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:30

1)How come all the planets, and even the moons seem to exert a gravity of around 1G even though they must have different masses?

All the filming was done here on Earth where there is a gravitational constant of 1G.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:14 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SamuraiX47:
I would think that if you start messing with the gravity pull of a moon, which may be planet sized to begin with, then you could very well mess up its orbital mechanics.

Well so long as we take the exotic matter for granted there is no reason to think that changing the apparent gravitational force of the moon would effect it’s orbit. If you are talking about something that already is outside the bounds of physical description you can think up a material that exerts a gravity like force that decays far more quickly with respect to distance.

Sprinkle the right ammount of this pixie-dust over the entire surface of the planet and boom, you have a world that mirrors the gravity of earth, but at a distance great enough to effect nearby bodies that are planetary or stellar in nature there is negligible effect.

Of course it would have to be a lot more complex than that, cant just have it blow away after all, but you can hammer out some set of details that explains changing the gravity of a world without effecting orbits.

The same material could be used on ships.

The only place you have serious problems is when a ship is near a planet, even then you could come up with a solution that does not break the laws of physics any more than this matter already does, I’m just not going to take the headache right now.

-

Obviously this isn’t using the exotic matter proposed in the first post, and it doesn’t cover internal dampening, but it was just to point out the possibility of changing local “gravity” without having to worry about orbits if we already accept at least one material doing things we do not presently understand.

All forces do not decay the same way with respect to distance. So even if the gravity you feel is the same as earth’s surface on a moon’s surface does not mean that the moon has the same mass as the earth (or even the mass that would be predicted by setting f=1g, r=the radius of the moon and solving for mass.) The reason is that the force of attraction need not be made entirely of gravity, and whatever the augmenting force is need not act like gravity.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:34 PM

TJACK

Your explaination of the ship's drive makes as much sense as any I've ever heard, but as far as planetside gravity goes, it's probably easier to assume that the planets terraformed were probably picked because they were within a point or so of "Earth that was" gravity already.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 1:36 AM

ROBINHOOD

This is the reason I hate Star Trek TNG, Voyager, Enterprise etc so much.

Yep..........................that went well!

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:05 AM

OPUS

The exotic material you speak of has been described and used in many other shows...it's technical name is "unobtainium".
If you want some real world sci-fi discoveries, scientist have recently discovered a way of inducing cryo type states in mice, without the freezing. Slows heart down to around 5 to 10 beats a minute and the bodies need for oxygen is severely reduced.
Their plans for using it however are not exactly exotic. Instead of for long term space travel it's for treating heart attack victims, cancer patients, that type of thing.

Opus

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 8:40 AM

PURPLEYIN

I’m sorry for dragging this post back up, but i don’t understand opus' reply.
The material that has been described purely as a plot device would be classified as exotic-matter, not as unobtanium, because if it were used, it would exist. And i fail to see the relevance of the month old news-flash.
I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone, and it saddens me if any of you would wish another to stop watching firefly because they have a different perspective.
I never meant anyone to feel hatred or feel the need for passive aggressiveness. In future I’ll keep my thoughts to myself.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:41 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I don't understand either, it says the changed the gravity of the worlds, and we know the ships gravity works without power, so it only makes sense to try to come up with a passive source for the change in gravity, that would need to be a material.

Name for a material that disobeys current understanding of the laws of physics: exotic matter.

-

It’s science fiction people, accept that there will be things that lie outside of the current understanding of the laws of physics (and more than likely outside the real laws of physics) and don’t be an ass when someone tries to define them.

Look at Star Wars, here is a series that is more fantasy than sci-fi by far and yet there are still complex, consistent, and coherent explanations of exactly how a lightsaber works right down to the fact it casts a shadow and movies through different materials at different rates.

If it is acceptable for them to do that why can’t someone come up with an explanation for the artificial gravity?

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 10:59 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleYin:
In future I’ll keep my thoughts to myself.

That's not something most folk around here do, and that's also why this is such a great site!
I found your stuff totally interesting, keep it coming. And don't mistake debate for passive- agressiveness, Browncoats are just a real lively bunch. And we don't get offended easily (unless we're called piss-pots on U-day).

Keepin' it shiny Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:16 AM

SIKKUKUT

The gravity-on-moons thing has always bugged me, and this is the best explanation I've yet heard.

I don't think your pumping idea would work for inertial dampers because a) that would then affect the downward gravity, which we don't see happening, and b) it doesn't seem like you could move this stuff around afterward.

I find it kind of funny that everybody worries about the gravity in Out of Gas but not the lights. The main engine is down, right? Which turns everything off. But there are back-up systems, because you don't want to suffocate every time your engine hiccups. It just so happens that in this case, the explosion knocked out the back-up life support-- and not the lights or gravity. So although exotic matter would explain the persistence of gravity in that episode, it's not needed.

I do, however, fully endorse it as an explanation of Earth-like gravity on moons.

What if they wanted to settle somewhere with more than 1 Earth gravity?

____________________________
Is it September yet?

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:52 AM

CALHOUN

So.. would this exotic matter be good to smoke?

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:53 AM

CORWYN

two points:

Zoe says they changed the gravity of the moons. Or close to it. "...as near to earth normal as they can make them, atmosphere, gravity and such..."

In Serenity, they turn the gravity in the air lock back on.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:25 PM

ZEEK

It seems like a decent explaination. The one thing I'm worried about is in the Message when Kaylee says that they are entering the atmosphere and the planet's gravity and ship's artificial gravity fight each other for a bit. Where would the matter go at that point to not fight or add to the planet's gravity? Could it be equally distributed throughout the ship or something so it would lose all effect?

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:24 PM

ILIZEDE

Most sci-fi refere to it as "gravity plating". I think I've only seen this "gravity plating" fail only once on one episode of Enterprise, and never on any of the other Treks, Battlestar, Stargate, or Farscape. I know babylon 5's gravity is produced by the rotation although I didn't watch the show for the specifics.

Since gravity is so important it would make sense to have a non-volitile system for gravity. Your explanation makes as much sense as gravity created through mechanical means, so why not? Just cast you up some floor made with these exotic particles or even more advanced like you said for the moving particles.

However the means is not important of Firefly, that's part of its universal apeal. The people I've turned on to Firefly don't like Sci-Fi space shows for its geeky improbable explanations of scientific technobable. Firefly completely avoids any technical explanation which is a good thing. How gravity works is not important to the stories.

Besides, it wouldn't work without gravity so it has to be there, who cares how?

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:39 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Sikkukut:
What if they wanted to settle somewhere with more than 1 Earth gravity?

I don’t think that’s a problem. A long time ago I wanted to know what was at the center of a gas giant, none of my teachers would tell me. Damn them.

Regardless I found out that:
a) No one is totally sure
b) If they are right about there being a planet inside of all that atmosphere projections show that Earth is the largest planet in the solar system.

I have yet to hear anyone talk about a non gas giant being much bigger than Earth so I get the impression that we really wound up pretty near the top end of the spectrum.

Of course all of my information on this is outdated, a lot.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:46 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
In Serenity, they turn the gravity in the air lock back on.

Every time I come up with some kind of an explanation for why the gravity works when the engine is out I suddenly remember that. Screws up all theories I had.

Now I feel like an idiot, which is probably deserved:

Quote:
Originally posted by Sikkukut:
I find it kind of funny that everybody worries about the gravity in Out of Gas but not the lights. The main engine is down, right? Which turns everything off. But there are back-up systems, because you don't want to suffocate every time your engine hiccups. It just so happens that in this case, the explosion knocked out the back-up life support-- and not the lights or gravity.

It makes sense, perfect sense in all possible ways. The gravity was on because it wasn’t off, it was on an independent system.

Still have the planetary gravity to think about but really there is probably a much nicer way to do that when you don’t assume the same system is used on ships.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:35 PM

DROCCULARI

Two more cents on inertial dampening. As I recall, in the Train Job, when Wash is maneuvering Serenity over the train, the cockpit is shaking a bit, but in the saloon/galley where Book and Inara are talking everything is rock steady. So it looks like the inertial dampening is not consistent throughout the ship or can be set differently in different areas. It makes sense to back off the dampening a bit in the cockpit to give the pilot a seat-of-the-pants feel while flying a touchy maneuver.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:35 AM

ROBINHOOD

Deleted.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:09 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by robinhood:
Enjoy the often exciting, always engrosing story lines, the complex array of different characters, the whitty and intelligent script and the incredible special effects.
Nevermind trying to figure out how the gravity drive works, or how inertia damping is created. Or why moons don't have different rates of gravity.

Analyse everything. When you go to see a magician you ask yourself, "How did he do it?" Does that make the magician any less enjoyable?

Science is magic, and so long as you don’t know the answer for sure the questions you ask contribute to that magic.

If you say, well the characters are real but the rest is total bull how does that make the show better? A complex array of different characters is only useful if you can convince yourself they are real people, and you can only do that if they are in a real world.

Quote:
What could possibly be gained from seeing all of our favourite characters floating about in slow motion on Whitefall because it has only a 6th or maybe 1/2 of Earth's gravity.

Wouldn’t work anyway, how do you know the moon landing wasn’t faked? Because the dirt (moon dust to be proper) traveled in a path that is impossible in Earth’s gravity. No way every bit of dust was on a wire.

Slow motion always looks like slow motion.

Quote:
How much impact would the Ep 'Out of Gas' have if the gravity on the ship had also been lost due to the engine not running.

And how much impact does it have if you say the ship is powered by magic? If it’s magic why the hell isn’t it working?

Quote:
Oh and the lights? Well, everything would be pitch black wouldn't it? What could be gained from that?

Lights were on a different system, we all figured that out on our own. Unless you’re talking about the outside of the ship, which Nathan Fillion said he liked because it had external lighting rather than assuming there was a spotlight on every ship in deep space.

Quote:
Why focus on such tiny niggles, when you should be looking at the bigger picture?

I thought the point of Firefly was that there is no bigger picture, these are just normal people on a ship that has gravity when the main power is down. Well normal people except for River, but when you get right down to it she’s a normal person too.

Quote:
But please try not to apply it to Firefly, because non of it's important as ILEZEDE said. Keep them seperate because to me, it's dragging it down to the same level as ST TNG. All technobabble to pad out a dull script, and cardboard characters.

How does talking about how stuff might work make the characters cardboard? Is Mal suddenly a cliché if the gravity works for a reason other than, “It looked better that way?”

Cardboard characters padded out by babble are something found in much of Star Trek (though far from all) and Shakespeare. Not Firefly.

-

Shakespeare did make many important points though, and one of them is in the famous, and annoying, “Wherefore art thou Romeo?” speech.

What surrounds a person does not change the person, be it a name or an inertial dampener. The characters are not now and never will be cardboard because no matter how many times you watch Out of Gas and how many things you say about it it will never change. OoG will always be what it is and the human drama will remain no matter how much technobabble a fans say when thinking of it.

-

Quote:
Here's a little concept I've been working on.. why not just sit in front of the TV and watch one of the greatest pieces of Television ever created.

If you truely feel that way about the show I direct you here:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=10330

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:10 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

deleted

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 7:46 AM

XENOCIDE

robinhood and co:

Sure, we could stop talking about things that annoy us...

...or all the fucking whiners who don't want to think about physics could start their own damn thread and stop wrecking ours. Or go watch charmed where there are no rules other than what the 'story' demands. OR if your more interesting than that go discuss deep character items like Mal's faith.

Consistency perserves the fourth wall and allows for suspension of disbelief for those of us with IQ's. If the rules change with the episode it can get pretty annoying (see star trek.)

Also, what do you care if some of us geeks want to discuss physics. Piss off.

Luddites need Gorram well not read threads about physics. Why you take time to flamebait on these threads is totally beyond my. All of Joss's worlds have rules. Vamps' get staked, magic goes bad, sould are good, gravity can stay on when main power is off and terraformed earths were made to have nearly 1 G. Some people enjoy thinking, and postulating about these things, if you don't want to fine. But leave those who do in peace, troll. Go read a crappy fantasy novel.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:33 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

No need to be hostile. Irritated perhaps, but not hostile.

You have to remember that either he doesn’t know any better, in which case forgive him, or he is a troll, in which case you being hostile is what he wants.

Given the two possibilities the best way to respond is with clear logical arguments or not at all.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:00 AM

XENOCIDE

I know. But I'm in a foul mood today and sometime I find yelling at trolls therapuetic.

That and these folks always intrude on our conversations about amusing topics and tell us not to have them and that rankles. I think there just paranoids who don't want to be lumped with trekkies.

I don't tell folks not to have their own threads. I don't ask for much but I do like folks better when they ignore a thread instead of disrupting it.

Sorry for lowering the bar though.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:21 AM

ROBINHOOD

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:57 AM

CHRISISALL

Okay, here it is.
Gravity is a built in constant on most ships, a la exotic matter. It can be negated in certain areas at will. When power is lost, gravity cannot be turned off. Inertial dampers keep people from splatting during Full Burns, and gravometric changes. Emergency lights work on photo- bioluminesence, and are not on the power grid. Phasers are routed through the warp co- OOPS! Wrong show!! Technobabble made me loopy.

An answer for everything Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:01 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
In Serenity, they turn the gravity in the air lock back on.

No, they turned off the power to the system negating the gravity. Make sence?

Trek taught me well Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:30 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by corwyn:
In Serenity, they turn the gravity in the air lock back on.

No, they turned off the power to the system negating the gravity. Make sence?

Trek taught me well Chrisisall

lol that was an awesome post.

I assume the lights are also some sort of perpetually shiny material that require power to turn off.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:12 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I assume the lights are also some sort of perpetually shiny material that require power to turn off.

Don't you know anything?

Dark Suckers

For years it was believed that electric bulbs emitted light. However, recent information has proven otherwise. Electric bulbs do not emit light, they suck dark. Thus we will now call these bulbs dark suckers. The dark sucker theory, according to a spokesperson, proves the existence of dark, that dark has a mass heavier than light, and that dark is faster than light.

The basis of the dark sucker theory is that electric bulbs suck dark. Take for example the dark suckers in the room where you are. There is less dark right next to them than it is elsewhere. The larger the dark sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark suckers in a parking lot have a much greater capacity than the ones in this room. As with all things dark suckers don't last forever. Once they are full of dark they can no longer suck. This is proven by the black spot on a full dark sucker.

A candle is a primitive dark sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You will notice that after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark which has been sucked into it. If you hold a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, the tip will turn black because it got in the way of the dark flowing into the candle.

Unfortunately, today's primitive dark suckers have a very limited range. There are also portable dark suckers. These bulbs can't handle all of the dark themselves, and must be aided by a dark storage unit. When the dark storage unit is full, it must be either emptied or replaced before the portable dark sucker can operate again.

Dark has mass. When dark goes into a dark sucker, friction from this mass generates heat. Thus it is not wise to touch an operating dark sucker. Candles present a special problem, as the dark must travel in the solid wick instead of through glass. This generates a great amount of heat. Thus it can be very dangerous to touch an operating candle.

Dark is also heavier than light. If you swim deeper and deeper, you notice it gets slowly darker and darker. When you reach approximately fifty feet, you are in total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the lighter light floats to the top.

The immense power of the dark can be utilized to man's advantage. We can collect the dark that has settled to the bottom of lakes and push it through turbines which generates electricity and helps push dark to the ocean, where it may be safely stored. Prior to turbines, it was much more difficult to get dark from rivers and lakes to the ocean.

The Indians recognized this problem and tried to solve it. When on a river in a canoe traveling in the same direction as the flow of dark, they paddled slowly, so as not to stop the flow of dark, but when they traveled against the flow of dark, they paddled quickly so as to help the dark along its way.

Finally we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you were to stand in an illuminated room in front of a closed, dark closet, then slowly open the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet, but since dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the closet.

In conclusion, it has been stated that dark suckers make our lives much easier, so the next time you look at an electric bulb, remember that it is indeed a dark sucker.

The above text was taken from:
http://www.galactic-guide.com

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:12 PM

CLJOHNSTON108

deleted

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:18 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by cljohnston108:
Ummmm, I hope y'all realize that I'm on your side in this!
My post was meant to be sarcastic in that patented Joss Whedon® style. Guess I have yet to master it!

I thought it was good.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:54 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I assume the lights are also some sort of perpetually shiny material that require power to turn off.

Umm...
sounds good to me!

I'm only alive on accounta lack of death Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 1:38 PM

XENOCIDE

CLJ:

No I got you. I didn't mean my post to be directed at you. Sorry if you took it that way. I caught your sarcasm, and was amused. I'm sorry I didn't respond fast enough to keep you from deleting your post.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:41 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

PurpleYin,

Sounds like a good enough plot device to me.

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