Laser guns? Or not. by Cosmoline

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Laser guns? Or not.

POSTED BY: COSMOLINE
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 18:32
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Monday, August 22, 2005 9:58 PM

One thing about the show intrigues me. It's established in "Trash" that there are beam weapons and that they've been around for a long time. But the various fight scenes seem to involve a mix of straight-forward archaic cartridge firearms, modified cartridge (gyrojet?) firearms with a weird noise and little recoil, and other things. Though there don't seem to be too many actual beam weapons in use, except during the flashback war scenes and in "Heart of Gold". Was any of this planned? Is the idea that civies and mercs can't afford beam weapons?

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Monday, August 22, 2005 10:19 PM

REAVERINA1985RIVIERA

Have you seen the price of a civilian legal laser gun lately? Outragious.

Only large army's and very rich people can get their hands on one.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 12:55 AM

CITIZEN

Yeah, Joss made a big point of laser weapons being expensive, so few people can afford them.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:58 AM

JADEHAND

Yes,
Other than "the Lassiter" in "Trash", I think the only other privately owned beam weapon is shown in ""Heart of gold" owned by "Rance Burgess". They are supposed to to be far too expensive for everyone to have. I'd rather have a "Vera".

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 4:22 AM

R1Z

Enara points one at YoSaffBrig when she's in the dumpster at the end of Trash, but of course, she's a member of the elite.

Gunpowder powered projectile weapons are low tech--no clean room required, no printing of circuit boards, and easy to reload on the fly. If you can afford a laser weapon, who will repair it on the border moons?

Extra bullets are cheaper than power cells to reload your laser pistol, and they can be made by anyone with mid-1800s technology.

Remember, Henry Ford built the Model T so it could be repaired by any farmer with hand tools and some baling wire. Sometimes low-tech IS more dependable

My father once told me, "Never trust a machine more complicated than a fork."

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 4:01 PM

GNARSH

Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z:
Enara points one at YoSaffBrig when she's in the dumpster at the end of Trash, but of course, she's a member of the elite.

I do believe that that was the Lassiter.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 4:08 PM

R1Z

No, the Lassiter wouldn't fire, so she switches to a smaller gun and says, "Oh, well, it's still worth a fortune. Anyway, this one works just fine."

The barrel of the weapon Enara switches to narrows substantially behind the muzzle. Clearly not a projectile weapon.

And being from a core planet, Enara would have access and the funds to buy a state of the art laser weapon.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 5:43 PM

STARRBABY

Hrm. I could have sworn that was just a regular ol' western revolver. Now I gotta go watch for the millionth time and examine the crap out of it. Oh well, I can think of worse things to do.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:27 PM

TECHIECL

It could have been some sort of flechette pistol. Expensive and classy and sci-fi, but not so radical as a laser. Plus Rance had a state of the art laser and it was still a helluva lot more sizable than Inara's piece.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA

My guess would be some type of electro-mag accellerated weapon firing a very small pellet of dense material at an extreme muzzle velocity.

Prolly still expensive as hell, mind you, but a suitable weapon for companions.

-F

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Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:25 PM

R1Z

Rance is a big man on his little moon, but he's a big fish in a small pond. On a central planet, he'd be a hick from the sticks. He'd be attracted to a big manly gun with all the bells and whistles.

Enara has a lot more class. She was a woman of consequence on a central planet, and as such would have access to resources Rance could only dream about. Her gun would be classier, more sophisticated. She knows that she wouldn't be shooting anyone at a distance, so no need for "auto target adjust". Rance shoots from his hovercraft, Enara shoots in self defence when her opponent is nearby.

And Enara's gun has a tiny red light on it, so it's clearly an electronic weapon. It's a "stilletto" compared to "saber".

My money's still on Enara for a dainty, ladylike, lethal laser weapon that'll fit in her purse.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:41 AM

TECHIECL

If Inara had a laser weapon, I would think she would have loaned it to the crew for their rescue of Mal during War Stories.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 5:02 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jadehand:
Yes,
Other than "the Lassiter" in "Trash", I think the only other privately owned beam weapon is shown in ""Heart of gold" owned by "Rance Burgess". They are supposed to to be far too expensive for everyone to have.

And even Rance pointed out to Mal that only the military is supposed to be able to get their hands on the laser pistol. He of course pointed this out to flaunt how his wealth & influence managed gain him one.

__________________________________________

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 5:30 AM

DUG

Two thoughts as to the reliability of beam weapons:

Get a slug thrower wet and it still fires. Get water on the emitter end of a laser and what happens as the light scatters?

Slug throwers shoot through smoge and dust clouds really well; beams should suffer from dispersion.

Beams look and sound cool, but have some serious tech downsides that shouldn't be overlooked just because scifi usually overlooks them.

Oh dear god, I'm in a techno-babble conversation.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 5:45 AM

CITIZEN

Depends on the type of beam weapon...
Plasma weapons wouldn't be dispersed for instance.
Lasers and particle beams would be dispersed (particle beams less than lasers tho) and they also experience an energy loss that is inversly proportional to the square of the distance...
basically if the distance doubles the power of the beam is cut by a factor of four and so on...

Thats in a vacuum to so where the beams are losing power to the atmosphere the energy loss would be greater.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:08 AM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?

A couple of thoughts:

I think the discussion between Rance and Mal regarding the laser being only military/gov't use is the level of the technology in question. Civilians (edit) in our society (/edit) can have guns, so long as they are not automatics and so on, but the military can have automatics and then some. I think the point was it was a military-grade weapon, not civilian. Just my take on it.

I also believe Inara's pistol is a laser pistol because she says "this one works" when she puts down the Lassiter and picks hers up.

So lasers exist, they CAN be owned by civilians, but sluggers are cheap, easy to manufacture and maintain, so much so, that even the Alliance is tossing around hot-lead in the Serenity and The Message flashback scenes. Sure they had lasers/plasma weapons too, but nothing beats projectile weapons for mass destruction. Note that even in Bushwhacked, they use missiles, not lasers, to destroy the shipwreck, and even in The Message, Womack fires missiles at/around Serenity.

Oh, and I'll take the whole easy-to-reload slugger any day versus a "check battery" light. ;P

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:11 AM

SPINLAND

Quote:
Originally posted by TenthCrewMember:
...I'll take the whole easy-to-reload slugger any day versus a "check battery" light. ;P

Hee! That, and the scene in "Ariel" when Jayne tries to blast the lock off a door with a sonic rifle, are two of the coolest arguments in favor of slug-throwers I know.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:20 AM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?

The only thing I *REALLY* want an answer to is how does a bolt-action rifle fire automatically.

See the opening scene of Our Mrs. Reynolds. The guy on the horse who peppers the "boat" has a bolt-action rifle in his hand, yet it fires like an M-16.

WTF?

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:26 AM

SPINLAND

Far-fetched rationalization time ...
The bolt's like the kick-starter on a modern Harley: sort of functional but really mostly ornamental.

Heh.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:31 AM

R1Z

Quote:
And even Rance pointed out to Mal that only the military is supposed to be able to get their hands on the laser pistol. He of course pointed this out to flaunt how his wealth & influence managed gain him one.

Rance is talking about the "auto target adjust", which is not "generally legal, for a private owner."

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 8:43 AM

KAYLEERULESALL

personally, id chalk it up to the prop master not doing his homework. if u just cant ignore it (as it is one of those little details that just bugs one to death, aint it?) id go with either it was ornamental, as has been sugessted, or perhaps it was a modified rifle. perchased as a bolt action, but tinkered, fussed, and in other ways generally ruttin messed around with untill it fires automatically. maybe he kept the bolt on cuz it made him feel cool...

"There are two infinate things in our world. The universe, and Human stupidity. I'm not too sure about the first one." Albert Einstien

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 9:05 AM

COSMOLINE

Quote:
Originally posted by TenthCrewMember:
The only thing I *REALLY* want an answer to is how does a bolt-action rifle fire automatically.

See the opening scene of Our Mrs. Reynolds. The guy on the horse who peppers the "boat" has a bolt-action rifle in his hand, yet it fires like an M-16.

WTF?

I just looked at the scene again. That is NOT a bolt action rifle. The bolt you see on the side is just a cocking lever.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:52 AM

TECHIECL

My take on that line was that she was referring to the fact that she had a working gun as opposed to a working laser gun.

Since we're on the general discussion of Firearms in the 'verse...

I had a thought / explanation, on the 'weird' noise that accompanies the cocking of the actions of the various firearms. The guns are electrically fired rather than an old fashioned hammer striking a cap at the end of the bullet. Working the action would energize the small capaciter used to fire off the electrical pulse that would ignite the proppellant.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:20 AM

R1Z

Quote:
TECHIECL
If Inara had a laser weapon, I would think she would have loaned it to the crew for their rescue of Mal during War Stories.

Enara wasn't there when they left to rescue Mal. As Zoe and Wash are arming themselves "Grenades, dear?", Kaylee comes in and says, "I just got a 'wave from Enara. No luck with the counselor . . ."

Zoe and Jane wouldn't have willingly gone into battle with a gun they'd never used or practiced with before anyway. They want a gun that feels like one more finger on your hand, if you understand the metaphor. (Where did that come from, anyway?)

kinda like I hate working on someone else's computer--nothing's where I'm used to it being and it slows me waaay down.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:36 AM

TECHIECL

She might not have been their when they were assembling their gear, but she was well aware of what was going to go down. Remember, she only left to see if she could get help from that Senator.

__________________________________________________
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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:37 AM

SPINLAND

There's a deleted scene in that episode. Right after Zoe returns with Wash and Mal's ear Inara goes to her client in an attempt to get her to intervene on Mal's behalf. It's just an awful, awkward experience for her and her former client and nothing gets accomplished (except some guilt on the part of her client, which leads to the loan of the medical equipment for re-attaching the ear).

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:43 PM

COSMOLINE

Quote:
I had a thought / explanation, on the 'weird' noise that accompanies the cocking of the actions of the various firearms. The guns are electrically fired rather than an old fashioned hammer striking a cap at the end of the bullet. Working the action would energize the small capaciter used to fire off the electrical pulse that would ignite the proppellant.

There are electrical ignition firearms around now, though they're not very popular. They make *less* noise igniting than a regular firearm. Plus, if the idea is that the rim colonists can only build and afford primitive cartridge firearms, creating an electrical priming system would make them unduly complex.

An alternate theory might be that some of the leverguns (that make the "whrrr" noise) have been modified to automate the elevator, so the lever merely frees the next cartridge and the elevator lifts on its own, thereby speeding the return stroke up and reducing the chance of jams. Sort of a high-tech jerryrig. I stopped using leverguns myself because of some very annoying experiences with bad elevators arising from weak springs.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:04 PM

SUNDERWOOD

My take on it is that beam weapons were flashy and cool, but expensive, didn't do near the damage, and problematic.

Rance's didn't do a lot of damage in HoG. It basically just set the wall on fire whereas a projectile would've went through the wall. To kill someone, he had to be at point blank range. Then his battery died. A convential weapon could've just been reloaded...hopefully during a lull in the fighting to where he would've had nearly a full magazine at that time.

I would imagine too that the Alliance would want to limit who could own such weapons as we've seen through our own history when oppressive governments fear law abiding citizens owning weapons that could one day be used to overthrow them.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 2:39 PM

REAVERINA1985RIVIERA

Quote:
Originally posted by SUNDERWOOD:
My take on it is that beam weapons were flashy and cool, but expensive, didn't do near the damage, and problematic.

Rance's didn't do a lot of damage in HoG. It basically just set the wall on fire whereas a projectile would've went through the wall.

Laser guns (like regular guns) are designed to kill people and people sized animals, not to slice everything it touches. Wood is denser than human flesh and therefor would require less battery power to kill someone and not cause collateral damage. Smaller power drain= smaller battery= lighter gun. The laser gun Rance had just didn't have enough wattage to cut through the wall, if he hooked it up it the hovercraft's battery, he could probably cut straight through a ship.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:05 PM

REAVERINA1985RIVIERA

Quote:
Originally posted by techiecl:

I had a thought / explanation, on the 'weird' noise that accompanies the cocking of the actions of the various firearms. The guns are electrically fired rather than an old fashioned hammer striking a cap at the end of the bullet. Working the action would energize the small capaciter used to fire off the electrical pulse that would ignite the proppellant.

Some prototype guns today use a soleniod to strike the tiny detonator inside the cartrige. It uses a button instead of a trigger, and it's faster to fire the bullet than a regular gun. But it has the same drawback as a Laser gun: battery life.

---------------------------------------------
The real-life box droppin', man-ape gone wrong thing, now without the pesky falling boxes

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Wednesday, August 24, 2005 6:32 PM

SUNDERWOOD

Quote:
Originally posted by ReaverInA1985Riviera:
The laser gun Rance had just didn't have enough wattage to cut through the wall, if he hooked it up it the hovercraft's battery, he could probably cut straight through a ship.

Speaking hypothetically that's mostly correct. More power would equal a more powerful laser as long as the laser could withstand so much power. It would also need to be a bigger laser though to cut through a ship or a handheld one pointed at it for a very long time. (We should assume there would be advances in armor also.) Otherwise the ships in science fiction stories would have lots of little handheld lasers mounted all over them and cut a path of destruction. Instead, they have fewer, much larger lasers to cut through ships.

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