Science and mistakes in Firefly: Ask your questions. by chrisisall

Quote:
I really like the "Magically Appearing Dolly" that was utilized on the air ambulance that Kaylee and Wash fixed up. You know, the one they used to break into the hospital on Ariel. Yaah, it's really neat -- 'cause see, when the ambulance is flying around on it's nighttime journey to the hospital, you can clearly see that it's got no "Magically Appearing Dolly" (MAD, in the lingo of the biz) hanging underneath it. Even when it first lands on the hospital's landing pad, it's not there.

But as soon as our BDH's need to get out of, or climb into, or hang around and make jokes and small talk in front of the air ambulance, you can see that the MAD has materialized right beneath the landing pads, or feet, of the ambulance. It's really kinda cool! I mean, it musta been something ol' Wash and Kaylee designed into the thing for a reason, right? Probably some super-secret stealth technology that Kaylee whipped up when she wasn't fighting off the Magical Space Monkeys (MSM's fer short) or some such. You know, a MAD that increases the height of your special air ambulance so your BDH's can all be in frame (and won't hit their heads on an air ambulance that's a little too low to the ground).

Yep, I do LOVE those "Magically Appearing Dollies" that come equipped on every jury-rigged air ambulance in the Firefly 'verse. Yessiree!

(Relaxes and waits. Thinks to self: "Man, I gotta hear this one.")

The MAD is called a gurney in the catalogs, and a "cart" by the hospital staff and even here, on Earth that will be "Earth that was" they stay parked just inside the door at the ambulance entrance, along with wheelchairs.

What is a glitch is that patients that die en route or are dead at the scene have to be pronounced dead by the docs in the Emergency Dept. before they go to a morgue, if there is one. EMTs can't pronounce them as dead. (Many hospitals nowadays don't even have a morgue, which implies autopsies performed on the premises. They have a body holding room.)

Alternately, someone dead at the scene can be pronounced by a coroner or medical examiner, in which case they wouldn't go to a hospital morgue, they'd go directly to the county morgue.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Monday, August 29, 2005 1:06 PM

SHORNY

in Objects in Space- Early (Earlie?) is not wearing gloves while he is out in space looking in as the crew is sitting around talking about River (you can see his left hand). This has always bugged me. I know he is tough, but how can he survive such cold temperatures as those found in space.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 1:50 PM

Quote:
in Objects in Space- Early (Earlie?) is not wearing gloves while he is out in space looking in as the crew is sitting around talking about River (you can see his left hand). This has always bugged me. I know he is tough, but how can he survive such cold temperatures as those found in space.

Good One!!! I never noticed that before.

Just watched it again--Jubal has gloves that match his suit on when he seals the hatch on his ship and jumps to Serenity. Then there's a shot where we see part of his helmet and his bare pink RIGHT hand as we look out the ports from inside the ship. The next shot I see Jubal in is him holding a contact microphone to Serenity's hull with his gloved left hand, the camera follows the wire up to his helmet.

Let's see what His Firefly-like Correctness has in his arsenal to explain how Jubal avoids frostbite. Chris??

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:12 PM

GREENFAERIE

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GunRunner:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
First off, let me say there are no mistakes in Firefly.

Oh really. In the pilot Serenity and the Reaver ship are traveling very slowly when they should be going very fast. Joss has admitted that this is a mistake!

...I see it as a narrative choice, not a technical mistake (Galactica is guilty of this constantly).

Joss was mistaken; it's not a mistake...

DOP Chrisisall

Guess what, you're both correct. It has been noted that we see Serenity and the Reaver ship pass relatively slowly. The key word here is "relatively". Both ships are traveling very quickly, but since the ships are traveling at nearly the same speed and direction,, they are moving relatively slowly.

Yes, this means one of the ships are pointed nearly backwards, but that wouldn't be very unusual if you were preparing to decelerate, or make a major course change -- probably the Reavers were doing exactly that when they passed Serenity.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Chrisisall:
Doesn't putting the ENTIRE population in SA seem a little undo-able? You're talkin' BILLIONS fer cryin' out loud!!!
No, the OWSUMEJ Gate is the only answer. SA would be limited to a few hundred thousand at best.
Are you suggesting most were left to die on Earth-that-was? And that the FF galaxy is populated by under a million at this point? Or has enough time passed for a few hundred thousand to grow into billions?
GIVE ME DATA SO I CAN BUY YOUR THEORY! (the OWSUMEJ Gate sounds too much like Stargate....)

au contraire, There was more than one ship, and they were badass man, I mean big!
The ships also had a crew, possibly generational, in-order to over-see the automated systems.
As with all evacuations of this order the majority of people were left on Earth to die (largely undesirables, single mothers, girl/boy bands, liberals etc.).

The Numbers Game:
This explains how I came by the numbers I use later, just jump to the summary if you don't want to check my math...

FireFly's Population
Summising:
If memory serves there is three core worlds, and the rest are less developed 'rim' worlds. Its been noted that there is roughly 70 worlds in total, so thats 67 rim worlds, most of which are small moons.
I think its reasonable to assume that a small moon couldn't support more than 100,000 people, and would on average have between 10,000 to 100,000. lets assume an average of fifty thousand per moon.
Lets assume that there are a total of ten 'rim' planets, each averaging a population of roughly one million to a maximum of one hundred million. Lets assume an average of fifty million per world.
The three core worlds were settled first, and by necessity have a higher population, lets assume an average of one billion (thats an American Billion, as you guys can't count high enough for the proper British Billion

)

So we have:
* 57 moons averaging fifty thousand people, ~3,250,000 in total.
* 10 rim worlds averaging fifty million people, ~500,000,000 in total.
* 3 core worlds averaging a billion people, ~3,000,000,000 in total.

Adding this all together gives a rough educated guess of ~3,503,250,000 people in the FireFly universe, which is around half the current population of the Earth. (Ignoring space stations and the like as they are likely to contribute little to the population)

Population growth in the 'verse
Now we can work backward. Taking into account the goverment would of likely imposed breeding programs in order to rebuild the population, and assuming:
* There was a period of 450 years to concentrate on population growth.
* A generation spans 25 years.
* The goverment breeding programs required couples to have three to six children (assuming an average of four).

With those assumptions we can summise 18 generations have passed.
Using these numbers a population of over 3 billion could grow from a few thousand in just ten generations (try it and see). Thats a rather optomistic assesment, so lets use real world figures:

Quote:
The [[]year[]]2000 growth rate of 1.4 percent, when applied to the world's 6.1 billion population, yields an annual increase of about 85 million people.

http://www.prb.org/Content/NavigationMenu/PRB/Educators/Human_Populati
on/Population_Growth/Population_Growth.htm

So dividing 3,503,250,000 by 1.4 18 times gives us:
8,206,660. So Our starting population figure is somewhere between a few thousand and eight billion.
Lets take the average of around four million.

The 'Ark' ships
So we've got to split up four million evacuees onto an arbitary number of ships. Assuming ten ships were launched, thats 400,000 people per ship.
Now the ships utilized Bussard Ram scoops so they could obtain their energy straight from space, thus theres no need to worry about power issues, or life support as it seems clear that the FireFly 'verse has the technology to synthesis oxygen, and most of the ships passangers would be in SA.

Now as for the size of the ships:
We've already seen a suspended animation unit, assuming that they've been developed to half their original size lets assume that they are a box roughly 2 metres square at the time of the exodus.
2 * 400,000 = 800,000. Therefore the cargo capacity required is at least 800,000 Cubic Metres. Assuming the same ships were used to carry equipment and resources I think its safe to assume 1,000,000 cubic metres of storage for each ship.
Therfore the minimum size of these ships, assuming minimal space usage for things other than cargo is 500x50x50 metres(lxwxh). This gives an internal volume of approx. 1,250,000 cubic metres.

Summary:
So, 10 Bussard Ram Scoop equipped vessels 500m long, 50m wide and 50m deep leave Earth carrying 400,000 people in suspended animation each, to a new star system.
They also each carry 200,000m³ of equipment and raw materials. It is also likely that an 11th ship is dispatched first with only raw materials and equipment on board. It seems logical that this vessel would carry the planetary engineers.

After the core worlds were terraformed and the first cities founded the fledgling goverment setup 'breeding' programs, where couples had to have at least three children, having less (for no good reason such as infertillity) would likely carry a prison sentence, and people would be given insentives to have more children. These could be preferential treatment in public services for instance. This could also explain the eventual move of the Aliance to a totalitarian goverement. It is likely that the goverment would have also sponsored in-vitro fertilization and perhaps even pregnancies (think babies grown in jars) on a massive scale.

So we end up with a 'verse with a population of ~3,503,250,000, or three and a half Billion people, starting with 4,000,000 colonists.

And thats my theory...

EDIT: edited for clarity... plus some of the math is wrong but too tired to fix it now...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:15 PM

CALONRIEL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by calonriel:

Yep, I do LOVE those "Magically Appearing Dollies" that come equipped on every jury-rigged air ambulance in the Firefly 'verse. Yessiree!

Sorry to give a mundane answer like this, but the dollies a provided by the hospital; check out Zoe grabbing one as she almost goes off camera after she gets out of the ambulance, and the shadows of 'em are also visible on the pad as the copter lands on the lower left and right of the screen.

YFC Chrisisall

Shadows? Where? Sorry, I don't see them, buddy. Nice try, though. How does Zoë go and "grab one" if she can't get out of the ambulance until it's landed -- yet the dolly is already under the ambulance when it lands?!? Besides, immediately before the ambulance lands we see in the long shot that there's nothing sitting on the landing pad. Hence my term: "Magically Appearing"!

That thing is clearly a piece of equipment that the wranglers on the set moved that gigantic ambulance prop around on. I think it was probably gonna be eliminated via CGI or something but they perhaps ran out of time (or else it was never supposed to be included "in frame" in the first place). It's so clear to see underneath that ambulance -- one solid piece in a the shape of a capital "I". Sorry -- I think I need a better explanation from you. I . . . I'm . . . shocked and . . . disappointed.

Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z:
The MAD is called a gurney in the catalogs, and a "cart" by the hospital staff and even here, on Earth that will be "Earth that was" they stay parked just inside the door at the ambulance entrance, along with wheelchairs.

Sorry, R1Z -- I think you're confusing the "Magically Appearing Dolly" (MAD) that appeared out of nowhere (and the ambulance physically landed on) with the two silver "Thule-Inspired Body Units" (TIBU's) that our heroes Simon and River are hidden inside.

The MAD is a very rare specimen, clearly perfected in the course of research on the trans-universe stargate jump that enabled all of humanity to get to the new star system; the TIBU's are commonplace units for transporting the sick and injured (and dead) that were licensed from the manufacturers of the old Thule cargo boxes on Earth-That-Was. Same design as what we carry our junk on vacation with now.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z:
Then there's a shot where we see part of his helmet and his bare pink RIGHT hand as we look out the ports from inside the ship.
Let's see what His Firefly-like Correctness has in his arsenal to explain how Jubal avoids frostbite. Chris??

Sorry to enter the realme of the mundane once more, but his hand was gloved. If you pause it you will see the yellowish light from inside Serenity mixing w/the purple of his suit, giving a sort of yellow/pink appearance to his glove. The same colour is also reflected at the top of his helmet.
Duh.(very nice try, though)

YFC Chrisisall

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z:
Quote:
in Objects in Space- Early (Earlie?) is not wearing gloves while he is out in space looking in as the crew is sitting around talking about River (you can see his left hand). This has always bugged me. I know he is tough, but how can he survive such cold temperatures as those found in space.

Good One!!! I never noticed that before.

Just watched it again--Jubal has gloves that match his suit on when he seals the hatch on his ship and jumps to Serenity. Then there's a shot where we see part of his helmet and his bare pink RIGHT hand as we look out the ports from inside the ship. The next shot I see Jubal in is him holding a contact microphone to Serenity's hull with his gloved left hand, the camera follows the wire up to his helmet.

Let's see what His Firefly-like Correctness has in his arsenal to explain how Jubal avoids frostbite. Chris??

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

Basically Jubals suit is high-tech military stuff. The issues are worse than 'frostbite'... Without gloves Jubal would experience explosive decompression. He didn't pop all over the windows did he

.
His hand appears to be uncovered because his gloves act like those sunglasses that go dark to clear when light shines on them...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by calonriel:
How does Zoë go and "grab one" if she can't get out of the ambulance until it's landed -- yet the dolly is already under the ambulance when it lands?!? Besides, immediately before the ambulance lands we see in the long shot that there's nothing sitting on the landing pad. Hence my term: "Magically Appearing"!

Look again: the ambulance lands - Zoe gets out - she moves to the right, going almost totally out of camera, next shot she's in she has a cart.
The landing shot just before that has two shadows (undefined as they may be, groups of 'dollies' can't be rulled out)on the bottom left, and the bottom right, visible just before the shot ends.

I HATE TO REPEAT MYSELF!!!!

Agitated YFC Chrisisall

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:33 PM

Quote:
There was a period of 450 years to concentrate on population growth.
There is a new generation every 25 years.
The goverment breeding programs required couples to have three to six children (assuming an average of four).

I don't know about you, but I was capable of breeding long before I was 24 (assuming 9 months gestation and 3 months for trying.)

Government breeding programs would encourage breeding as soon as biologically possible, consitent with maintaining the health of the mother--probably around 15.

Better recalculate.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:42 PM

Thats an average number, in fact people would have babies every year, they wouldn't wait 25 years, and then have 4 children

.
Its a reasonable estimate for the doubling rate of a population (which is about 23 years for the last century).

Basically the numbers are there to indicate generation span, children would be born over the course of a womans fertillity, taken as roughly 50 years...

You post kind of supports my theory tho...
You can either reduce the number of initial colonists, or increase the resultant population, mainly on the core worlds, of course.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 2:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

So we end up with a 'verse with a population of ~3,503,250,000, or three and a half Billion people, starting with 4,000,000 colonists.

And thats my theory...

I don't know if I totally agree yey, but boy, you get a gorram gold star for the effort!!!!!!!!!!!!

YFC Chrisisall

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Monday, August 29, 2005 3:25 PM

CALONRIEL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by calonriel:
How does Zoë go and "grab one" if she can't get out of the ambulance until it's landed -- yet the dolly is already under the ambulance when it lands?!? Besides, immediately before the ambulance lands we see in the long shot that there's nothing sitting on the landing pad. Hence my term: "Magically Appearing"!
Look again: the ambulance lands - Zoe gets out - she moves to the right, going almost totally out of camera, next shot she's in she has a cart.
The landing shot just before that has two shadows (undefined as they may be, groups of 'dollies' can't be rulled out)on the bottom left, and the bottom right, visible just before the shot ends.

I HATE TO REPEAT MYSELF!!!!

Agitated YFC Chrisisall

So do I !!!!!!!!!!!! (Hate to repeat myself, that is!)

I'm NOT talking about the dollies that they wheel the poorly-disguised Thule boxes with Simon and River in them around on!!! READ what I WROTE!!!

I'm talking about the Magically Appearing Dolly that's . . .are you ready? . . . are you sure? . . . 'cause here it comes . . . that's UNDERNEATH THE AMBULANCE! The AMBULANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here, I'll help you out, ye "Master of All Explanations"

: Check out marker 14:36 on the DVD -- ambulance lands on the landing pad. Directly. On the PAD!!!!!!!!

Then, at 14:41, we see the first sign of the Magical Dolly (look at the left of the screen and you can see the tiny little wheels underneath it!).

At 15:02, you can CLEARLY see the dolly (covered in black) sitting underneath the "feet" of the ambulance!!!!!!!! THAT'S what I'm talking about! Now do you see it? If not, I don't know how the hell else to point it out to you.

Crikey! THAT'S the dolly I'm referring to. Something they used to move that gigantic ambulance prop around on -- NOT the ones they use to move the poorly-disguised Thule boxes!

So anyway, now that you (must) see it -- where did it come from????????? Certainly wasn't there when the ambulance was flying! Wasn't there when they first landed. Yet it just Magically Appeared, starting at frame 14:41.

So . . . . . . . . what is it, master????

(Besides a mistake, that is!)

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Monday, August 29, 2005 3:54 PM

You stupid wooman!
Can you not see that it is mearly the landing pad locking mechanism that prevents the ambulance falling off and getting lost or stolen?
('Allo 'Allo humour, if you haven't seen 'Allo 'Allo, I pity you, I really do...)

The ambulance is guided in by automatic control, lands on the landing pad, and then the locking assembly rises out of the pad and locks the landing gear in place...
Dolly indeed, anyone would think that it wasn't a real working flying ambulance from the future, and that it had to be wheeled about some kind of film set...

As Chrisisall would say DUH!

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 4:57 PM

CALONRIEL

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You stupid wooman!
Can you not see that it is mearly the landing pad locking mechanism that prevents the ambulance falling off and getting lost or stolen?
('Allo 'Allo humour, if you haven't seen 'Allo 'Allo, I pity you, I really do...)

The ambulance is guided in by automatic control, lands on the landing pad, and then the locking assembly rises out of the pad and locks the landing gear in place...
Dolly indeed, anyone would think that it wasn't a real working flying ambulance from the future, and that it had to be wheeled about some kind of film set...

As Chrisisall would say DUH!

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

"Well, Golllllllllllllllllly, Saergent Carter. I apologize."

(I'm male, by the way, but no matter!)

Anyway, yaah, I'm glad that SOMEBODY finally looked more closely and figured out what I was talking about! Cool. Neat-o. Keen. All them sayings. Oh, and "Shiny!", too. Yaah -- A "landing pad locking mechanism". Yaah, [Jon Lovitz]that's the ticket[/Jon Lovitz].

Why I, I, I feel so silly. Why didn't I think of it!?! Well, until I hear from the master on high, [cough]Chrisisall[/cough], I guess that'll have to suffice as an explanation. It's what I'll tell any newbie's I watch the DVD's with who happen to spot it.

Whew! What a load off.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 5:24 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Not that this thread takes itself seriously...

Re: Vera

Overlooking that the writers got it wrong...

But Jayne does not say anything about Vera needing oxygen to fire.

He says Vera needs 'air' around her to fire.

This opens up the discussion as to 'why' to considerably more options than if he had said 'oxygen.'

Discuss.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, August 29, 2005 5:27 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Re: Vera's purported need for "oxygen" around her; Jayne may know weapons, but he's hardly a scientific prodigy. He had the idea right, but got the terminology wrong. What Vera needs is not oxygen per se, but atospheric pressure, and less for the need of O2 for combustion than as a matter of protection for Vera's carefully-machined tolerances.

Consider that taking a non-space-rated firearm into vacuum will cause lubricants and plastic or silicone seals to outgas very rapidly, perhaps enough to damage her within a minute or two of vaccum exposure; adding the force and released high-temp vapors of a chemical propellant could easily damage her further; you might get just a single shot off before accuracy went to hell -- and although he did make his first shot, Jayne had no way of knowing in advance that would be the case. (Despite that whole "bent scope" yarn.)

"Know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed." -- Zoë Warren

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Monday, August 29, 2005 6:53 PM

Quote:
Not that this thread takes itself seriously...

Re: Vera

Overlooking that the writers got it wrong...

But Jayne does not say anything about Vera needing oxygen to fire.

He says Vera needs 'air' around her to fire.

This opens up the discussion as to 'why' to considerably more options than if he had said 'oxygen.'

Discuss.

--Anthony

Sorry, but the quote IS "She needs oxygen around her to fire and we don't have a case."

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Monday, August 29, 2005 7:14 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

R1Z,

I owe you thanks. Not often I get a good excuse to dig up the DVD's and revisit a beloved moment.

He does indeed say Oxygen. Time dulls recollection, I suppose. My apologies.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, August 29, 2005 7:45 PM

RIVERNOT

Quote:
Originally posted by Shorny:
in Objects in Space-...

Okay, this isn't a scientific issue, well maybe it could be if it were like the MADs/landing skids grippers in Ariel, but what about the ladder that Jubal used to get into Serenity? Granted, I haven't had my DVDs for quite a while (my mom won't send them back, grumble, grumble) so I've no way to check, but I seem to remember that the ladder he used to get into the ship, which is in the corner of the short corridor between the stairs and the corridor between the galley and the bridge (got that?), isn't there in any other episode. How do you explain that one, or am I misremembering.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 9:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calonriel:
(I'm male, by the way, but no matter!)

Guess they don't get 'Allo 'Allo round your neck of the woods then...
Basically thats a direct quote of the main character Renee'. Its set in war torn europe (who think that you could make such an amussing show about the nazi occupation of france, thats us Brits for ya...) in a cafe' owned by Renee', who happens to be married, but also having affairs with all his serving girls. His wife would, without fail, walk in on Renee' while he was in some clinch with one serving Girl or another and demand to know why said girl was in his arms. He always replied along the lines:
"You stupid woman! Can you not see the poor yevette was so overcome with worry that she passed out and collapsed to the floor, when I caught her and had to resusitate her?"
And of course his wife would always buy it.
Seeing it in print don't do it justice, just trust me that it was one of the funniest shows I've ever seen...

It was just a mangled quote that I thought was ammusing given the circumstances, weren't meaing to assign gender to you one way or another...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Monday, August 29, 2005 11:30 PM

The ladder is in a receccessed section that you never really get to see...

Chrisisall don't seem to be here at the moment so I'll say it for him...
DUH!

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:37 AM

Actually chris, i've just thought of a sciency question, and its all together un-mistaky too.

What shipborne weapons do you think they use in the 'verse, just thinking about it while I'm at work, I mean what else am I going to do at work? We've seen energy weapons used at least once in the series by the Dortmunder I think it was, to destroy the derelict in Bushwhacked.
Its that green energy beam and you see pulses go down the beam and hit the derelict pretty much cutting it in two.

So what is that weapon and how does it operate?
How powerfull is it?
What other shipborne weapons do they use in the 'verse?

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:44 AM

'couple of "mistakes" I noticed...

In "Objects in Space" when Mal kicked Jubal, he should have flew backwards in the opposite direction
(for every action) unless he was braced against something. He could have been braced against the airlock door the opened upwards, but it wasn't open onscreen.

Maybe he had magnetic boots??? Oh his boots were in loops....or whatever they are called - attached to the hull.

And another...my major sci-fi pet peeve (only Babylon-5 has got this right so far, and even they fracked up in "Legend of the Rangers") - any civilization that has artifical gravity wouldn't need reaction based drives (rockets, ion, *fusion* - like Firefly - and even steam - yes, *steam*) they could just turn the gravity field on it's side and go MUCH MUCH faster than conventional reaction based propulsion. Fast enough to reach another star pretty quickly. And like someone else said, they probably could even build warp drives, wormholes, etc...)

But they would experice relativistic time dialation if he went at STL (Slower Than Light) speeds...this means that a journey taking hundreds of years from the view of the outside universe, would only take only decades or less ship's time. So the 500 years could be measured since the arrival.

My only HUGE complaint is the solar system model -
all of thoe "70 Earths") and their accompanying gas giants would have to ocuppy a narrow habitable zone around the star called "The Goldilocks Zone", and they'd be constantly bumping into each other, and most been destroyed billions of years ago.

And bigger star might have a bigger zone, but I hear that most non-sun-like stars can't support Earth-like planets. (I don't know why, and I *should*.) Anyway, we clearly always saw a yellow sun.

But there where those cryptic "Blue Sun" refrences...as someone suggested on another board, perhaps Firefly's system is a multiple star system (with the stars far enough away to allow stable planetary orbits)???

Oh, and you could use shields to cool nearby planets, and mirrors to warm farther out ones, but that would only extend the habitable zone a bit.

There is a thread about it here: http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=4909312&page=4
&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1
(I know, I started it.)

And as for the breeding program - they can't feed the people they have already! Why make more? But I like the idea of having a few teen brides! (I keed. I keed.) well...maybe *18*...

Oh, and I haven't seen the movie, but there *is* a planet that looks alot like a decimated Earth in the promo - don't know if it's in the film..perhaps there is a perminate
stable wormhole between here and there?

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Actually chris, i've just thought of a sciency question, and its all together un-mistaky too.

What shipborne weapons do you think they use in the 'verse, just thinking about it while I'm at work, I mean what else am I going to do at work? We've seen energy weapons used at least once in the series by the Dortmunder I think it was, to destroy the derelict in Bushwhacked.
Its that green energy beam and you see pulses go down the beam and hit the derelict pretty much cutting it in two.

So what is that weapon and how does it operate?
How powerfull is it?
What other shipborne weapons do they use in the 'verse?

The military is developing particle beams even now, and I just read on CNN.com about a laser just developed by the DOD that can fit in a large plane, and fire in streams *and* pulses....

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
Maybe he had magnetic boots??? Oh his boots were in loops....or whatever they are called - attached to the hull.

Magnetic boots of course.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
And another...my major sci-fi pet peeve (only Babylon-5 has got this right so far, and even they fracked up in "Legend of the Rangers") - any civilization that has artifical gravity wouldn't need reaction based drives (rockets, ion, *fusion* - like Firefly - and even steam - yes, *steam*) they could just turn the gravity field on it's side and go MUCH MUCH faster than conventional reaction based propulsion. Fast enough to reach another star pretty quickly. And like someone else said, they probably could even build warp drives, wormholes, etc...)

I mentioned the aculbier warp earlier I think. The problem with gravitational drives (ignoring the aculbier warp) is the fact they can't break the light barrier and would crush people on board with inertia and opposing gravitational tides...
Wormholes require more than just gravity to form, in order to become stable they need exotic matter and negative energy fields.
Its also perfectly possible to generate gravity with a conventional drive. You just accelerate at a constant 1g

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
But they would experice relativistic time dialation if he went at STL (Slower Than Light) speeds...this means that a journey taking hundreds of years from the view of the outside universe, would only take only decades or less ship's time. So the 500 years could be measured since the arrival.

Relativistic time dialation is only really noticable at relativistic speeds (speeds approaching the speed of light). Your talk tau getting very close to 0. Beyond that see my earlier post on intestellar travel.

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
My only HUGE complaint is the solar system model -
all of thoe "70 Earths") and their accompanying gas giants would have to ocuppy a narrow habitable zone around the star called "The Goldilocks Zone", and they'd be constantly bumping into each other, and most been destroyed billions of years ago.

Well most of thoes are moons of the gas giants and bigger planets

. In fact there is probably no more than twenty planetary bodies in the habitable zone, the rest is moons. Its not a stretch if you look at the numbers.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
And bigger star might have a bigger zone, but I hear that most non-sun-like stars can't support Earth-like planets. (I don't know why, and I *should*.) Anyway, we clearly always saw a yellow sun.

Yep, but the habitable zone is a corridor in the region of 606 Million miles... fair amount of room there, given the fact that planets may not necessarilly have planar orbits if they're captured bodies. As for the why:

Quote:
In general, the conditions needed to support the type of large carbon-based life found on Earth may require an inner rocky planet that is orbiting a star in its so-called "habitable zone." Such zones are bounded by the range of distances from a star for which liquid water can exist on a planetary surface, depending on such additional factors as the nature and density of its atmosphere and its surface gravity. In addition, the range of star types that can support Earth-type life on rocky planets may be limited to those lower mass stars that "live" long enough for planets to form and complex life to evolve.

http://www.solstation.com/stars/4planets.htm

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
And as for the breeding program - they can't feed the people they have already! Why make more? But I like the idea of having a few teen brides! (I keed. I keed.) well...maybe *18*...

Huh? The breeding program was after the exodus, between that time and the time of FireFly... it would be essential to rebuild the Human race.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
Oh, and I haven't seen the movie, but there *is* a planet that looks alot like a decimated Earth in the promo - don't know if it's in the film..perhaps there is a perminate
stable wormhole between here and there?

Don't say I didn't warn ya:

Select to view spoiler:

The Earth features as a short background story shot with ships leaving for the new system. It also mentions not everybody left the Earth.

As for the other thing do you have any idea how unlikely any wormhole naturally occuring is, let alone a stable one? Especially one that just happened to go where we needed it, its more unlikely than the star system in the first place, basically... I mean...
DUH

...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:38 AM

Quote:
Okay, this isn't a scientific issue, well maybe it could be if it were like the MADs/landing skids grippers in Ariel, but what about the ladder that Jubal used to get into Serenity? Granted, I haven't had my DVDs for quite a while (my mom won't send them back, grumble, grumble) so I've no way to check, but I seem to remember that the ladder he used to get into the ship, which is in the corner of the short corridor between the stairs and the corridor between the galley and the bridge (got that?), isn't there in any other episode. How do you explain that one, or am I misremembering.

The ladder is always there, they just don't shoot that little alcove very often. That ladder is also how Simon and River get onto the hull to hide from the Alliance in Bushwhacked and how Wash gets to the NavSat array to boost the signal in Out of Gas. (It leads to its own airlock) The only other way out of the ship is the cargo bay door, which is on the "bottom" of the ship.

And you can download all the episodes here http://versaphile.com/download/firefly.html and watch them on your computer. It's a really handy way to check quotes and such. You don't even have to turn your chair.

After she carried you for nine months, you begrudge that poor woman a copy of Firefly? Shame on you. Even Jayne sends money home to his mother.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:12 AM

GREENFAERIE

I hate to burst your bubble, Chrisisall (because until yesterday I liked your explanation best), but according to the official Serenity RPG (approved by Whedon himself), it was generation ships that made the flight from Earth-that-was. No jumpgate.

Also according to the RPG, the Firefly 'verse is made up of a star system containing a few stars each with their own planets.

The ship is also said to be "inertialess" but only able to reach 2% of light-speed. That one that doesn't make a lot of sense, but there could be a reason...

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:18 AM

RIVERNOT

Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z:
Quote:
Granted, I haven't had my DVDs for quite a while (my mom won't send them back, grumble, grumble)

After she carried you for nine months, you begrudge that poor woman a copy of Firefly? Shame on you. Even Jayne sends money home to his mother.

Yes. You're right. I'm hanging my head. She's gave the DVDs to me for Christmas when they first came out, so I should show a bit more respect, huh. She's even making noises of coming HERE to see the movie with me rather than stay home (a 2-1/2 hour drive). Ah, I'm such an ungreatful child. ;)

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
I hate to burst your bubble, Chrisisall (because until yesterday I liked your explanation best), but according to the official Serenity RPG (approved by Whedon himself), it was generation ships that made the flight from Earth-that-was. No jumpgate.

No, NO, no no no, no no!
Basically I'm trying to say no. RPGs and such (even official ones) are notrious for being inaccurate...

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
Also according to the RPG, the Firefly 'verse is made up of a star system containing a few stars each with their own planets.

A binary system I can believe (it makes more sense actually) but any more than that and it starts to become pretty unbelievable...
I like the idea of a Binary system, as binary systems are quite common, and would give a lot more room for the habitable planets to 'move'. Theres a whole bunch of interesting orbits that come come from a Binary system aswell, planets can orbit a habitable zone around both stars, follow a figure of eight orbit swapping stars as it orbits, or could orbit just one star of the pair.

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
The ship is also said to be "inertialess" but only able to reach 2% of light-speed. That one that doesn't make a lot of sense, but there could be a reason...

Inertialess drive huh, and one that can only reach 2% of LS...
Hmmm, now that just don't work with modern physics... I'm gonna stick with my intestellar ramjet I think.
Specially since theres no theoritical limit to how close to lightspeed the bussard ramjet can get, just can't ever achieve it.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
Maybe he had magnetic boots??? Oh his boots were in loops....or whatever they are called - attached to the hull.

Magnetic boots of course.

Of course.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
And another...my major sci-fi pet peeve (only Babylon-5 has got this right so far, and even they fracked up in "Legend of the Rangers") - any civilization that has artifical gravity wouldn't need reaction based drives (rockets, ion, *fusion* - like Firefly - and even steam - yes, *steam*) they could just turn the gravity field on it's side and go MUCH MUCH faster than conventional reaction based propulsion. Fast enough to reach another star pretty quickly. And like someone else said, they probably could even build warp drives, wormholes, etc...)

I mentioned the aculbier warp earlier I think. The problem with gravitational drives (ignoring the aculbier warp) is the fact they can't break the light barrier and would crush people on board with inertia and opposing gravitational tides...

Can't break the light barrier, but can accelerate and travel very fast.

Not sure what you mean by the inertia crushing people - do you mean by the acceleration? Can't you also use the grav generators to cancel that out?

Gravitational tides I didn't consider (especially opposing ones from the ships artifical own internal gravity)...even if you put the grav engines on long booms....

But isn't that what an Alcubierre Warp Drive
does....warp space in front of and behind the ship to create movement? And gravity is just a warp in space....also, you would need exotic matter and neg pressure to create one of those too....

Quote:

Wormholes require more than just gravity to form, in order to become stable they need exotic matter and negative energy fields.

Well, I thought they could form in rotating black holes...

But I have read you'd need exotic matter (which may not even exist) and negative pressure densities (which do with the Cassimir effect, right?) to keep and artifical one open. And it would have to be ULTRA-HUGE (artifical or not) to prevent gravitational tides from ripping a ship apart, or from passage causing it to collapse. (If I remember correctly...been a while since I cracked a physics book....)

Quote:

Its also perfectly possible to generate gravity with a conventional drive. You just accelerate at a constant 1g .

Sure, but in the "down" direction of travel...

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
But they would experice relativistic time dialation if he went at STL (Slower Than Light) speeds...this means that a journey taking hundreds of years from the view of the outside universe, would only take only decades or less ship's time. So the 500 years could be measured since the arrival.

Relativistic time dialation is only really noticable at relativistic speeds (speeds approaching the speed of light). Your talk tau getting very close to 0. Beyond that see my earlier post on intestellar travel.

And pretty close to light if I remember. But I thought we speculated on some kind of ship that could go that speed....

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
My only HUGE complaint is the solar system model -
all of thoe "70 Earths") and their accompanying gas giants would have to ocuppy a narrow habitable zone around the star called "The Goldilocks Zone", and they'd be constantly bumping into each other, and most been destroyed billions of years ago.

Well most of thoes are moons of the gas giants and bigger planets . In fact there is probably no more than twenty planetary bodies in the habitable zone, the rest is moons. Its not a stretch if you look at the numbers.

20 still seems like alot. But I guess if you assume a multiple suns system, that number drops per star. I ain't so good at orbital dynamics, but it would seem that here would be some collisions eventually (esp for gas giants big enough to have Earth sized moons - which they would need for Earth-like gravity)

(I guess "The Core Planets" would be the planets around the central star....)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
And bigger star might have a bigger zone, but I hear that most non-sun-like stars can't support Earth-like planets. (I don't know why, and I *should*.) Anyway, we clearly always saw a yellow sun.

Yep, but the habitable zone is a corridor in the region of 606 Million miles... fair amount of room there, given the fact that planets may not necessarilly have planar orbits if they're captured bodies. As for the why:

Possible. But I still dread the inevitable collision.

Quote:

Quote:
In general, the conditions needed to support the type of large carbon-based life found on Earth may require an inner rocky planet that is orbiting a star in its so-called "habitable zone." Such zones are bounded by the range of distances from a star for which liquid water can exist on a planetary surface, depending on such additional factors as the nature and density of its atmosphere and its surface gravity. In addition, the range of star types that can support Earth-type life on rocky planets may be limited to those lower mass stars that "live" long enough for planets to form and complex life to evolve.

http://www.solstation.com/stars/4planets.htm

Interesting. Thanks. Forgot some stars burn MUCH faster - esp the massive ones....

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
And as for the breeding program - they can't feed the people they have already! Why make more? But I like the idea of having a few teen brides! (I keed. I keed.) well...maybe *18*...

Huh? The breeding program was after the exodus, between that time and the time of FireFly... it would be essential to rebuild the Human race.

Well since now food is such a high priced commodity, they may have breed to far. Maybe they were hoping at least a few outer rim settelers would survive and eventually make bread baskets of the outer worlds...

'course, sounds like the Alliance has the tech to do that....

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
Oh, and I haven't seen the movie, but there *is* a planet that looks alot like a decimated Earth in the promo - don't know if it's in the film..perhaps there is a perminate
stable wormhole between here and there?

Don't say I didn't warn ya:
Select to view spoiler:
The Earth features as a short background story shot with ships leaving for the new system. It also mentions not everybody left the Earth.

Select to view spoiler:
Ah, kinda like a backstory....cool....

Quote:

As for the other thing do you have any idea how unlikely any wormhole naturally occuring is, let alone a stable one? Especially one that just happened to go where we needed it, its more unlikely than the star system in the first place, basically... I mean...
DUH ...

Yeah, I know...a MASSIVE stable wormhole that just magically happens to go to a system of terraformable planets...and there are unicorns there
too!

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
Can't break the light barrier, but can accelerate and travel very fast.

Not sure what you mean by the inertia crushing people - do you mean by the acceleration? Can't you also use the grav generators to cancel that out?

Gravitational tides I didn't consider (especially opposing ones from the ships artifical own internal gravity)...even if you put the grav engines on long booms....

But isn't that what an Alcubierre Warp Drive
does....warp space in front of and behind the ship to create movement? And gravity is just a warp in space....also, you would need exotic matter and neg pressure to create one of those too....

In an alcubierre warp the ship is held within a completely 'flat' area of space-time within the space-warp bubble... As for the rest your right, the AW is impractical even if it is possible, simply because by some estimates it would take more energy to warp space in that way than the enitre rest mass energy of our universe

.
I'm not entirely sure you could use gravity to counteract inertia, cause all those different gravitational fields pulling this way and that could likely rip the ship apart.

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
Well, I thought they could form in rotating black holes...

Possibly, very if:
Because of its two event horizons, it might be possible to avoid hitting the singularity of a spinning black hole. At the outer event horizon, the properties of spacetime allow objects to move only towards the singularity. However, when an object passes the inner event horizon, the object is able to move in directions away from the singularity, pass through another set of inner and outer event horizons, and emerge out of the black hole into another universe or another part of this universe without traveling faster than the speed of light (following a time-like path).

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
And pretty close to light if I remember. But I thought we speculated on some kind of ship that could go that speed....

Yep, that would by the bussard intestellar ram-jet. I might add that technically any drive (at least any reaction-based drive) reach relativistic speeds, you just have to keep accelerating

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
20 still seems like alot. But I guess if you assume a multiple suns system, that number drops per star. I ain't so good at orbital dynamics, but it would seem that here would be some collisions eventually (esp for gas giants big enough to have Earth sized moons - which they would need for Earth-like gravity)

This was disscussed in another thread, and I believe it was KayleeIsAll who did the math, essentially nature would generate a stable orbit.

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
Yeah, I know...a MASSIVE stable wormhole that just magically happens to go to a system of terraformable planets...and there are unicorns there
too!

Well what do you expect when you follow elves riding on the back of dragons?

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:

Not sure what you mean by the inertia crushing people - do you mean by the acceleration? Can't you also use the grav generators to cancel that out?

Gravitational tides I didn't consider (especially opposing ones from the ships artifical own internal gravity)...even if you put the grav engines on long booms....

But isn't that what an Alcubierre Warp Drive
does....warp space in front of and behind the ship to create movement? And gravity is just a warp in space....also, you would need exotic matter and neg pressure to create one of those too....

In an alcubierre warp the ship is held within a completely 'flat' area of space-time within the space-warp bubble... As for the rest your right, the AW is impractical even if it is possible, simply because by some estimates it would take more energy to warp space in that way than the enitre rest mass energy of our universe .
I'm not entirely sure you could use gravity to counteract inertia, cause all those different gravitational fields pulling this way and that could likely rip the ship apart.

That's right ship stays still relative to the space around it, space *itself* moves. So it doesn't violate Relativity (was that General or Special? I always forget....)

As for AW being impractical...what about the Micro Warp Bubble idea? (Which sounds like a just a math trick really) - doesn't that lower the energy costs *somewhat*?

(And would make building my TARDIS possible!)

We just need a smart engineer to make it work!

And as for ripping the ship apart...yeah...good point....what if we made a ship that pulled in one direction, and made the interior artifical gravity align along that direction? Heck, or even used the same gravity field for both? So all the pull was in one direction. (Travelers would be going forward feet first, I guess.) Would that work?

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
Well, I thought they could form in rotating black holes...

Possibly, very if:
Because of its two event horizons, it might be possible to avoid hitting the singularity of a spinning black hole. At the outer event horizon, the properties of spacetime allow objects to move only towards the singularity. However, when an object passes the inner event horizon, the object is able to move in directions away from the singularity, pass through another set of inner and outer event horizons, and emerge out of the black hole into another universe or another part of this universe without traveling faster than the speed of light (following a time-like path).

I just starting to re-learn this....time-like path...space-like path....

Bottom line is, FTL travel/communication would mean time travel, and the posibility causality violations....nature may forbid that...then again, it may happen all the time!

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
And pretty close to light if I remember. But I thought we speculated on some kind of ship that could go that speed....

Yep, that would by the bussard intestellar ram-jet. I might add that technically any drive (at least any reaction-based drive) reach relativistic speeds, you just have to keep accelerating

Sure. At one g....shouldn't be a problem....just need LOTS of fuel....and fuel to accelerate the mass of the fuel.... ;) Unless you didn't carry he fuel like in a ramjet...

But could a Bussard scoop up that much intersteller hydrogen to keep up that kind of acceleration *constantly*?

EDITED TO ADD

Oh, and I forget....colser to c (lightspeed) you get, more massive the ship gets, more fuel you need to propell it. 'course, in a ramjet, faster you go, more fuel you collect....('till you hit a bit of space dust and explode!)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
20 still seems like alot. But I guess if you assume a multiple suns system, that number drops per star. I ain't so good at orbital dynamics, but it would seem that here would be some collisions eventually (esp for gas giants big enough to have Earth sized moons - which they would need for Earth-like gravity)

This was disscussed in another thread, and I believe it was KayleeIsAll who did the math, essentially nature would generate a stable orbit.

Cool. Er...SHINEY!

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
Yeah, I know...a MASSIVE stable wormhole that just magically happens to go to a system of terraformable planets...and there are unicorns there
too!

Well what do you expect when you follow elves riding on the back of dragons?

I did that last time on LSD....

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You stupid wooman!
Can you not see that it is mearly the landing pad locking mechanism that prevents the ambulance falling off and getting lost or stolen?
('Allo 'Allo humour, if you haven't seen 'Allo 'Allo, I pity you, I really do...)

The ambulance is guided in by automatic control, lands on the landing pad, and then the locking assembly rises out of the pad and locks the landing gear in place...
Dolly indeed, anyone would think that it wasn't a real working flying ambulance from the future, and that it had to be wheeled about some kind of film set...

As Chrisisall would say DUH!

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

WELL PUT!!!

Citizenisall-Er, I mean Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
That's right ship stays still relative to the space around it, space *itself* moves. So it doesn't violate Relativity (was that General or Special? I always forget....)

Its special, general allows a body to move between two points in less time than it would take a ray of light. Special prevents an object breaking the 'light-barrier'.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
We just need a smart engineer to make it work!

I'm afraid scotty, he's, well.

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
Bottom line is, FTL travel/communication would mean time travel, and the posibility causality violations....nature may forbid that...then again, it may happen all the time!

Look up Tachyons

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
Sure. At one g....shouldn't be a problem....just need LOTS of fuel....and fuel to accelerate the mass of the fuel.... ;) Unless you didn't carry he fuel like in a ramjet...

But could a Bussard scoop up that much intersteller hydrogen to keep up that kind of acceleration *constantly*?

Short answer is yes. I'll be back with the long answer later...

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverchow:
Oh, and I forget....colser to c (lightspeed) you get, more massive the ship gets, more fuel you need to propell it. 'course, in a ramjet, faster you go, more fuel you collect....('till you hit a bit of space dust and explode!)

Yea, thats kinda right. As you get closer to lightspeed it takes more energy to accelerate the ship. If you turned off the engine you wouldn't slow down, unless another force acted on you. And you'd never hit space dust as the matter would be channeled around the ship by the bussard scoop field. (In fact if the field was strong enough you could theoretically pass through a star without adverse effects).

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
according to the official Serenity RPG (approved by Whedon himself), it was generation ships that made the flight from Earth-that-was. No jumpgate.

Ah, well, It was just an explanation that I thought possible.
Am I supposed to KNOW EVERYTHING?!?~!!!???

Oh, yeah. I did say something like that.

As of right now I abdicate my know-it-all title; the experts are all around here! Thanks citizen and R1Z, and everyone else; this thread is way more interesting than I could have made it all by myself!

Let's keep it up!

Former YFC Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
according to the official Serenity RPG (approved by Whedon himself), it was generation ships that made the flight from Earth-that-was. No jumpgate.

Ah, well, It was just an explanation that I thought possible.
Am I supposed to KNOW EVERYTHING?!?~!!!???

well aren't you a NASA advisor?

As an aside, I have a friend who works for JPL - he was on NOVA a few months back...he makes me feel like a complete loser....*I* wanted to major in physics and astronomy and/or work for JPL as a kid, but I just goofed off and drank for the first 7 years in college (started when I was 16) then met a girl and was...ahem..."distraced" the last year....

Quote:

As of right now I abdicate my know-it-all title; the experts are all around here! Thanks citizen and R1Z, and everyone else; this thread is way more interesting than I could have made it all by myself!

Let's keep it up!

Okay, but I need a break...tired from building that time machine in my garage....I have the wooden Police Box exterior (wrong series, I know - but Serenity was too big to build) but it's all that technical stuff I can't figure out....

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:59 AM

Your still the YFC Chris, just now you got dedicated science monkeys to do your bidding

...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Your still the YFC Chris, just now you got dedicated science monkeys to do your bidding ...

Stop peelin' that bananna, and get to work, then!!!!

YFC

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 1:45 PM

Its a highly theoritical bananna.
And I aint peeling, i'm splitting it, got to get some fairly radical power out of splitting a bananna...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
And as for ripping the ship apart...yeah...good point....what if we made a ship that pulled in one direction, and made the interior artifical gravity align along that direction? Heck, or even used the same gravity field for both? So all the pull was in one direction. (Travelers would be going forward feet first, I guess.) Would that work?

As long as the gravity well didn't go much beyond 1g I don't see why not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverchow:
Sure. At one g....shouldn't be a problem....just need LOTS of fuel....and fuel to accelerate the mass of the fuel.... ;) Unless you didn't carry he fuel like in a ramjet...
But could a Bussard scoop up that much intersteller hydrogen to keep up that kind of acceleration *constantly*?
...
Oh, and I forget....colser to c (lightspeed) you get, more massive the ship gets, more fuel you need to propell it. 'course, in a ramjet, faster you go, more fuel you collect....('till you hit a bit of space dust and explode!)

Long answer time:
The Bussard RamJet utilizes a Bussard Ram Scoop to 'pickup' matter from the surrounding universe, to use as fuel and engine reaction mass.

Quote:
The Bussard ramjet was proposed by R.W. Bussard in 1960. The original vehicle collects charged particles from interstellar space using a large magnetic scoop, and funnels them to the onboard H-He fusion reactor, where they are converted to fuel. According to Bussard's calculations, a 1000 ton starship with a 100% reactor efficiency, which collects fuel from a medium with 1 charged nucleon/cubic centimetre would accelerate almost indefinitely at 1g. In a year the craft would reach the speed of light and in the subjective lifetime of the crew it would also reach the end of the Universe. The diameter of the scoop would need to be 100 km for this 1000 ton vehicle, if it is to move through a space medium with a density of 1000 atoms/cm3.

http://www.itsf.org/brochure/ramscoop.html

Now the actual particle density differs depending on who you ask, and where in the universe you are. For instance Interplanetary space will have a fairly large particle density, where as Intergalactic space would have very little.
This site gives an estimate of an average of 1 Atom per cm³:
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/DaWeiCai.shtml

Using a EM field as our collection mechanisim would allow for a larger area of space to be harvested. Using the above criteria we would need a field that had an electric current of more than 1.6*10-19 volts and a magnetic field of more than 1×10-6 gauss (0.1 nanotesla) for a diameter of at least 100,000km.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:34 AM

Just don't do a Full Bananna Burn.

Monkey in the wrench Chrisisall

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 7:47 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by perfessergee:
So, YoSafBrig-type operatives would have to match vectors, at least approximately, leaving the field clear for sharpshooters like Jayne. Who could probably have done it with a 30-06. But that's what Big Damn Heroes are for......

Yeah, that makes sense. I didn’t think about that, but that’s a good point.

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
As for ships meeting each other in the black, the distances aren't that great at all, at least not on a galaxtic scale.

Yeah, and I’m pretty tough if you compare me to small rodents.

You are right about the orbital dynamics. Distances between planets curve around the star’s gravity well, as well as the planet; this however doesn’t make anything necessarily any closer. One of the assumptions that scifi seems to make is that planets are always stationary. In reality it may be necessary to travel from one end of the solar system to the other to get to planets that are “near” each other in distance from the sun and that will take you in a big arc around the sun. A particular ships trajectory along these “space lanes” would be quite unique and a function of the departure time and initial velocity of the particular ship in question. Even along a matched trajectory towards the same destination there could be distances of thousands of miles between ships, along the same area of corridor. How far away does a ship need to be before you can resolve it with the unaided eye? Even a large ship, I would say less then 10 miles, anything further is likely to appear as nothing more then a moving white dot against a background of stars, if it is visible at all. It just seems so unlikely to me that one would ever find another ship just meander past.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn Mac Cumhal:
A particular ships trajectory along these “space lanes” would be quite unique and a function of the departure time and initial velocity of the particular ship in question. Even along a matched trajectory towards the same destination there could be distances of thousands of miles between ships, along the same area of corridor. How far away does a ship need to be before you can resolve it with the unaided eye? Even a large ship, I would say less then 10 miles, anything further is likely to appear as nothing more then a moving white dot against a background of stars, if it is visible at all. It just seems so unlikely to me that one would ever find another ship just meander past.

We have sensors today that can scan the outer reaches of the solar system, (even if it is only visually) so its not a stretch to assume that ships can detect each other at ranges of 100,000 miles or more. So they know when someone else is using the space lane. Add to that the spacelanes would likely take weeks to move a great deal out of place, and its likely that spacelanes would be 'fixed', only the entrances from the planets would change (otherwise it would be difficult to patrol them no?).
Given thoes points meeting a ship in a spacelane is far more likely, as a ship can pickit up on Lidar(Laser/Infra-red Direction And Ranging, obviously) or whatever, and change course for an intercept if so desired, and they'll likely be moving around a relativly small galaxtic neighbourhood.

Chrisisall:
Give me a DUH!

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 9:22 PM

RYAN786I

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 10:45 PM