Is there a general anti-authoritarian feeling in the Whedonverses? by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by TheNextBestThing:
and all the planets are under the mercy of their regional governers

But how will they maintain control without the bureaucracy?

Tarkin Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 3:54 PM

JACQUI

Sorry... I was too busy trying to make my way throught the Anti-Father swarm...

(and if you didn't get it, that was a 'Pfft. Of course!').

I think Joss, every now and again, just wants to

authority.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 3:54 PM

SOPRANOSBROWNCOAT

Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 4:19 PM

And what of the rebels? If they've obtained a complete technical readout of this station they might, however unlikely, find a weakness, and exploit it!

Forgettable character Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 4:19 PM

LADYSHELLEY

Quote:
Originally posted by SopranosBrowncoat:
Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.

The more you tighen your fist, the more systems will slip through your fingers.

Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 10:27 PM

MOJAVE

Don't become too proud of this technological terror you've constructed....and yes, corruption of authority is a major Joss theme. I'm working on a JW analysis including that as a top 3.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:17 PM

I think it's not as straightforward as saying that Joss is anti-authoritarian. After all, he's quite in favour of some kinds of authority - a captain and his crew, for example, or a slayer and her scoobies. All of his shows are ultimately about families, and families are political institutions in miniature. Indeed, families are where individuals learn about power and responsibility and their place in the pecking order. Families in the Jossverse are often problematic and relationships often have to be negotiated, but this is part of what makes them 'a very good thing'.

The problem in the Jossverse comes with bigger institutions that aren't connected to the people they govern and start to behave as if they have a life of their own. One of my favourite quotes that deals with this is in 'War Stories':

BOOK: I'm just wondering if they were. The people who did this to River.
SIMON: The government did this to her.
BOOK: A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned.

Being a privileged person who up until now has never really questioned the system, Simon thinks of 'the government' in the abstract. Book reminds him that 'the government' is really just a convenient fiction made up of individuals pursuing their own agendas.

For me it's a key Joss moment.

"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:17 PM

I reckon it’s more anti-establishment than anti-authoritarian (if I can make that pedantic distinction)

… Sometimes people in authority are (mostly) good (Principal Wood, heck, what about Giles??) … It’s just faceless bureaucracy that’s bad … It’s all about the individual … even the Independents don’t come in for blanket approval, but we just happen to like some of the individuals therein …

I also like the dichotomy in all Joss' works between power corrupting, as you rightly say, but also power forcing responsibilities and decisions on people they’d rather not make… Both the Bufster, Angel and Mal come in for criticism for their leading styles and their decisions, but they effectively have no choice, as Mal says: “my boat is not the ruttin’ town hall”…

I think it creates fantastic emotional ties with any viewer, both sympathy and empathy and some superb gorram catharsis (who of us hasn’t been a fly in a spider’s web at one time or another, caught by circumstance and unable to make any substantive choice save a decision that’s bound to upset someone?…)

Anyway that was slightly off topic but I guess what I’m essentially saying is “yeah”!

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 11:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I reckon it’s more anti-establishment than anti-authoritarian

Ha! Similar posts at almost exactly the same time.

Question though, Zoot. Do you think there's a danger that Joss's political vision ends up being actually rather anti-democratic? Generally he seems to favour benign dictators rather than democratic process.

Carbonel

P.S. If I'd known that today was going to feature the phrase 'superb gorram catharsis' I think I would have got out of bed with more of a spring.

"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Carbonel:

P.S. If I'd known that today was going to feature the phrase 'superb gorram catharsis' I think I would have got out of bed with more of a spring.

"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."

Aw bless, thanks Carbonel! And may I just take this moment to say that the Kingdom of Carbonel was one of my favourite books growing up ...

In answer to your question, depends what you mean by “democratic” or rather it doesn’t ‘cos I think the answer is “yes”, I do think there’s a danger that Joss’ vision is fundamentally anti-democratic when it comes down to it …

To explain:

(a) if you mean “democratic” as in not republican, then he does indeed seem to be in favour of “small” government which, let’s face it, (and okay, I’m not American, so I may be wrong) seems to be the trumpet call of the Republican party …
(b) if you mean “democratic” as opposed to “oligarchic” or “tyrannous”, then it may be a question of that old chestnut – is bad government by one person better than bad government by many, as less people are tainted by the “sin”?… I personally think that Joss’ extreme individualism coupled with the theme, which both Buffy and Firefly imply, of personal ability and its commensurate responsibilities, leads to an oligarchy of talent (if not a tyranny) where everyone finds their level according to their abilities and looks up to the more able and down on the less … and, remember, certainly Plato thought that not all tyrannies were bad – why else did he try to create the tyrant Dionysus in Syracuse in his own image?? And Plato’s perfect Republic is governed by benign philosopher-kings … (gosh, really veered off on tangent now) …

I think there’s a fundamental conflict in Joss’ work between an almost teenage desire for individuality and responsibility for self-government and the principal that everyone should live in an ordered society and look after each other – ‘cos if you’re looking out solely for yourself and the preservation of your own psyche, then other people are going to inevitably get trodden on …

Perhaps Joss is just way more optimistic about human nature than me. I think he thinks that, left to their own devices, the majority of people are fundamentally altruistic, when I think just the opposite (c.f. New Orleans) … or maybe he doesn’t… But I think his work is generally hopeful (masquerading as hopeless) …

A good example is the “lovely little community of kidnappers” in “Safe”. So, they kidnap a few professionals and they’re gonna burn River as a witch, but they’re not all bad. They have banded together to look after each other (but how much of this is philanthropy and how much self preservation, we’ll never know) and they’ve taken in and looked after the little girl with no mother, though it will be many years before she’s a productive member of society, as Doralee says: “[it’s a] place where folks take care of each other.”

I guess what I may be saying is, like real life, Mr Whedon’s ‘Verse is very complex and ruttin’ hard to unravel and that makes it mighty!!

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 3:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:

(a) if you mean “democratic” as in not republican, then he does indeed seem to be in favour of “small” government which, let’s face it, (and okay, I’m not American, so I may be wrong) seems to be the trumpet call of the Republican party ….

I had intended 'democratic' as opposed to 'oligarchic', but the Democratic versus Republican question opens interesting questions. In many questions Joss would be on the Democratic side, I think (e.g. women's rights, homesexuality). But there's definitely a strong streak of laissez faire, small-government conservatism there too. In particular I'm thinking of the smuggling issue - in Firefly smuggling things past trade restrictions is 'good' crime. I'm not American either so I'm not able to pick up on all the nuances, but I'd be interested to know how Americans understand Joss's politics. The recent debates on the 'real world' board about Katrina seem to suggest that it's possible to be passionately either Republican or Democratic and still admire Joss.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I think there’s a fundamental conflict in Joss’ work between an almost teenage desire for individuality and responsibility for self-government and the principal that everyone should live in an ordered society and look after each other – ‘cos if you’re looking out solely for yourself and the preservation of your own psyche, then other people are going to inevitably get trodden on …

I absolutely agree, but I'd never really thought of it as 'teenage' before. Certainly there's a strong streak of idealism in the way that Joss presents Mal - a hollow man in the sense that he's lost faith and meaning, but he still knows right from wrong (wouldn't you have just loved to meet his mother?)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:

A good example is the “lovely little community of kidnappers” in “Safe”. So, they kidnap a few professionals and they’re gonna burn River as a witch, but they’re not all bad. They have banded together to look after each other (but how much of this is philanthropy and how much self preservation, we’ll never know) and they’ve taken in and looked after the little girl with no mother, though it will be many years before she’s a productive member of society, as Doralee says: “[it’s a] place where folks take care of each other.”

I don't know about this - I'd read the community in 'Safe' as much more negative. I agree that the community was idealised in some ways, but I also thought the religious side was a real problem. If you need a doctor to keep your community alive then maybe it's OK to kidnap one. But dressing that up as 'God will provide' is dangerously self-delusory (and before you know where you are you'll be burning mentally unstable women). Again it seems to come down to one of Joss's major themes - start believing in abstract entities (God, the government) and you'll stop recognising human agency and taking responsibility for your own actions.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I guess what I may be saying is, like real life, Mr Whedon’s ‘Verse is very complex and ruttin’ hard to unravel and that makes it mighty!!

I'll drink to that! When I've found all the answers then I'll start to criticising Joss rather than just commenting on him.

Carbonel

P.S. Glad you like and recognise where my name comes from. I re-read the books recently and they're still pretty good. Talking cats are just generally shiny (unless they're on TV shows called Sabrina).

"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 3:35 AM

Yeah! Talking cats rule!!

By “teenage” I mean that it’s a very sort of high school/ university thing to be so belligerently anti-establishment … you tend to get over it and mellow a bit and begin to think speed limits and no smoking laws are reasonably ok later in life …

I too would love to know how American Browncoats see Joss on the Republican/Democrat line - I suspect both camps can make a good case for claiming Joss as their own ... Although ardent Republicans seem to be in the minority on this board …

I tend to think of Joss, or at least the part of him we see reflected through the prism that is Firefly, as less democrat or republican, but more inheritor of the pioneer spirit of the first settlers - all “freedom to worship” and “freedom to kill each other if that’s what we fancy” … I guess the facet of Joss viewed through Buffy is slightly different – that’s more the “with great gifts comes great responsibility” line …

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 4:33 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I too would love to know how American Browncoats see Joss on the Republican/Democrat line...I tend to think of Joss, or at least the part of him we see reflected through the prism that is Firefly, as less democrat or republican, but more inheritor of the pioneer spirit of the first settlers - all “freedom to worship” and “freedom to kill each other if that’s what we fancy” …

Americans do have more than 2 parties, you know.

There is a reason Libertarians (the pioneer spirit folks) are big damn fans of Firefly and identify greatly with the Browncoat rebels.

I see Joss as someone who doesn't like to paint broad strokes of good and evil over any ideology, but sees pros and cons and shades of gray in all approaches. I think the worlds he creates celebrates, for the most part, socially conscientious individualism, but even that has a price.

I don't think he is "undemocratic" as in supportive of benevolent dictatorships. Rather, I think he likes decisive, hard-ass leadership that is not swayed by popularity polls and vote courtships, in contrast to the "leadership" Americans are used to. His heroes, Buffy, Angel, and Mal are people who make hard, unpopular decisions to survive and save lives, while knowing full well their own flaws and not claiming any categorical moral highground in doing so.

I think the following quotation about the BDM says it all. It is from a pamphlet I got at a Serenity screaning.

Quote:
Joss Whedon:
For all of them it's about freedom. It's about how much you can take, how much you can have taken from you, both personally and ideologically, before you have to turn around and fight.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

I don't think he is "undemocratic" as in supportive of benevolent dictatorships. Rather, I think he likes decisive, hard-ass leadership that is not swayed by popularity polls and vote courtships, in contrast to the "leadership" Americans are used to. His heroes, Buffy, Angel, and Mal are people who make hard, unpopular decisions to survive and save lives, while knowing full well their own flaws and not claiming any categorical moral highground in doing so.

I dunno, I find the idea of hard-ass leadership a bit scary as it smacks of dogmatism and intransigence …

But I think you’re right, only I do like the fact that it’s not quite that simple in the Whedon Verse – we aren’t always encouraged to completely and unquestioningly side with the “ruler”. We‘re never encouraged (especially with Buffy) to implicitly believe the leader is in the right …

It’s oh so much greyer than that – oftentimes I find myself (and I think we’re supposed to) rather disliking the “hero” e.g. when Mal threatens to space River and Simon in the pilot and I think we’re supposed to side with Book when he says “that’d be murder” …

But, as Mal put it “way it is, is the way it is” and the beauty of Whedon is putting flawed people in positions of responsibility and watching them f*ck up …

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:05 AM

MIKEYMO

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:

I too would love to know how American Browncoats see Joss on the Republican/Democrat line - I suspect both camps can make a good case for claiming Joss as their own ... Although ardent Republicans seem to be in the minority on this board …

Canttakesky mentioned it already, but I thought I'd say a bit as well. The sides taken in the Democrat/Republican battle are occasionally somewhat arbitrary (God knows there are logical inconsistencies withing each so-called idealogical framework), but people in America just kind of pick the side they mostly agree with and that's their team. The ideals of Libertarianism can be found in different ways in both parties - but I don't want to start listing things and turn this into a discussion of hot-button issues. Suffice to say you'll find Libertarians on both sides of the isle.

I am struggling to recall a quote from Heinlein in Stranger - and am complete unable to remember. He describes his home as a family, and as such is anarchy until such time as he gives an order. Or something. I know there are other Heinlein fans on the board, so perhaps one of them would be able to remember it better. But the sentiment is there, and is applicable to Joss shows -- since all of them, he has stated, are about created family.

I think I started this post with a point, but now I'm just rambling.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:

But the sentiment is there, and is applicable to Joss shows -- since all of them, he has stated, are about created family.

I guess a lot could be made (and probably already has been) about Joss’ fixation with acquired families rather than genetic ones … the funny thing is you still get that feeling of “god, I hate these gorram people, but I’m stuck with them ‘cos their my family” which you get with genetic families … so go figure ...

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
I don't think he is "undemocratic" as in supportive of benevolent dictatorships. Rather, I think he likes decisive, hard-ass leadership that is not swayed by popularity polls and vote courtships

Oh I absolutely agree, although I would also argue that the line between 'benevolent dictatorship' and 'decisive, hard-ass leadership' sometimes gets a little fuzzy. Also, things are complicated by the fact that on the one hand strong leadership is important, but on the other hand so is individual freedom and sometimes those things come into conflict.

I was just reading a Joss interview from a while back where he talks about the making of the movie of Buffy, when the director started to take it in directions he didn't like:

Quote:
So I didn't agree with the way the movie was going, but I also kept my mouth shut because you respect the director. You do that. You respect the person above you, and you make suggestions and you do your best. You know? But you don't ever disrupt the chain of command. You have to have faith in the person who's running it or things will fall apart.

This is of course not quite true - in the Jossverse sometimes you do have to disrupt the chain of command when lives are at stake - Mal does it in some of the flashback scenes, for example, and Riley does it in series 4 of Buffy.

I'm not quite sure what my point is here - in Joss's philosophy you have a moral responsibility to follow the authorised chain of command, but also to resist that command when you know it's dangerously wrong? I'm not sure how that maps onto Libertarian ideology (which, as a non-American, I now realise I don't know much about but I'm very interested).

Carbonel

P.S. Also the word 'anarchy' keeps popping to my head from Riley's 'No sir, I'm an anarchist.' line. I've been trying to ignore it, but now it's found its way into the post.

"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:48 AM

LOCKESCYTHE

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:faIJMJalKdgJ:marykay.typepad.com/g
allimaufry/2004/10/whedon_fans_for.html+joss+whedon+democrat&hl=en
Whedon Fans for Kerry
Pass it on.

Subject: High Stakes: Whedon Fans for John Kerry and John Edwards

In every four-year term there is a chosen one. He alone will face the
American public, the United Nations, and the forces of darkness. He is
the President.

The Kerry/Edwards campaign would like to invite everyone to host or
attend parties across the nation to celebrate the genius of Joss Whedon
and learn more about John Kerry and John Edwards. Mr. Whedon will
calling to tell us about his latest exploits and why he is supporting
John Kerry for President and John Edwards for Vice President.

Whether you're a Democrat, a Republican, a Independent, undecided, or a
flesh-eating demon, you don't want to miss this chance to hear from
Joss. It will be shiny.

Don't wait to be beeped when the Apocalypse comes!

When: Sunday, October 24, time to be confirmed shortly

Where: To host or attend a party, go to
http://www.johnkerry.com/events/. Look for parties with High Stakes in their
title.

If you don't find a party in your area, consider hosting one! It's very
easy! If you can throw a party, this is much the same. All you need is a
speaker phone and to invite lots of your friends. Party hosts can download a
John Kerry house party tool kit from
http://www.johnkerry.com/fundraising/kit.html. Sign up and also email us at
parties@highstakes2004.com. Hosts will be given all the necessary details on
the conference call with Joss Whedon.

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 5:53 AM

LOCKESCYTHE

So I think the American Browncoats have a good case on whedeon being a democrat.

Lol.

http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=7043 Pictures from one of those highstakes events.

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 6:00 AM

Wow! I had no idea! Did anyone attend one of these things?

Still, I'm not sure that Joss supporting Kerry and Edwards entirely settles the case. I still think it's possible that Republicans could find something in his oeuvre to relate to.

"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
his work is generally hopeful (masquerading as hopeless)

You've hit the nail, I think, Zoot!
He tries to show the possible in the in the face of the seemingly impossible (the BDM?).

And on the political side of things, I think Joss is very 'Bruce Lee' about it. No one way ever works perfectly, so you have to use a little Democracy, a little Dictatorship, a little Socialism, etc. as the situation demands.

To address above American political observations, Republicans and Democrats have an equal predilections toward being jerk-offs. The R's and D's that sway toward the Libertarian seem more level-headed, again, that pioneer spirit that also allows you to drop everything to help your fellow man when in trouble. Just MHO.

Hey Zoot, your coat has sort of a brownish colour to it...

Independant Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
Suffice to say you'll find Libertarians on both sides of the isle.

A thinkin' place in the middle?

Hot-button Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Carbonel:
Being a privileged person who up until now has never really questioned the system, Simon thinks of 'the government' in the abstract. Book reminds him that 'the government' is really just a convenient fiction made up of individuals pursuing their own agendas.

For me it's a key Joss moment.

Well put, I agree.
Thanks Carbonel, your posts are lucid and interesting, right up there with Zoot's.

And more learned than puny Chrisisall's

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Wednesday, September 7, 2005 2:07 PM

MIKEYMO

The idea of "anarchy until I give an order" has been rolling around in my head a bit today, and I think it might be a good way to describe the writers' room. One would imagine, given the level of talent in the writers that Joss recruits, that they are given a fair amount of freedom in kicking stories around. But it's NEVER in doubt who has creative control. Joss trusts them to create quality, but when he walks into the room and starts erasing and rewriting on the board (assuming they have a board), no one is going to question him.

"Hey, Joss, does Angel really have to be such a jerk to Buffy after sleeping with her?" *snerk*

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Thursday, September 8, 2005 3:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Hey Zoot, your coat has sort of a brownish colour to it...

Independant Chrisisall

It was on sale...

Not sure I understand what "very Bruce Lee" means ...

Am away to go look up Libertarianism ...

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Thursday, September 8, 2005 3:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Thanks Carbonel, your posts are lucid and interesting, right up there with Zoot's.

Now that's high praise indeed

*brushes imaginary speck off collar in supercilious manner*

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
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Thursday, September 8, 2005 4:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks Carbonel, your posts are lucid and interesting, right up there with Zoot's.

I have spent some time today trying to work out whether it's better to acknowledge the compliment, or to pretend to ignore it in an aw shucks kind of way. One of the problems with the internet is that embarassed-but-pleased aw shucking in your own room doesn't really convey itself through the ether.

I must say I do like this board. When I recently acquired my Firefly obsession I was hoping there would be a shiny board, and this is even shinier than expected.

"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."

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Thursday, September 8, 2005 5:11 AM

WHITEFALL

I think Joss is not so much against democracy, as he is trying to warn everyone that it's not perfect, individuals will take over if you arent careful, etc...

I keep remembering this DS9 quot by Odo...

"It has been my observation that one of the downsides of giving people the freedom to chose, is sometimes, they make the wrong choice."

I survived a day in Whitefall and all I got was this lousy signature!

Terrifying Space Monkey of Destiny

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:

Not sure I understand what "very Bruce Lee" means ...

For me, everything comes down to martial arts, and Bruce was the king. He was trained in many traditional Chinese systems (mainly Wing Chun) and found that each style had it's own particular limitation. So in the end he favoured being flexable, and incorporating many elements from different methods to solve a martial problem. For instance: you're up against a Boxer; don't try to out-punch him- that's his specialty- take him out with low kicks. You're up against a kicker; stay close, and in-fight- he can't kick you as effectivly.
So 'very Bruce Lee' would mean adaptable, and finding the means to the desired result.

Martial Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Carbonel:

I must say I do like this board. When I recently acquired my Firefly obsession I was hoping there would be a shiny board, and this is even shinier than expected.

Shiny shows attract shiny fans.

Shiny Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 3:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
I think Joss is not so much against democracy, as he is trying to warn everyone that it's not perfect, individuals will take over if you arent careful, etc...

I recently read a quote by Joss about Serenity sayin' that he'd hoped the subject matter of the BDM would not be as relevent as it turns out it is.....

Irrevelent Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 10:26 PM

Ah! I get you now. Not being a martial arts freak I had no idea it was so complicated!! I kind athought you just hit people ...

***************************************

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Monday, September 12, 2005 1:34 AM

CITIZEN

I find Martial Arts is mainly about NOT hitting people...
i.e. Stoping a fight before it starts...
In the words of Bruce Lee:
"the art of fighting, without fighting."

Unfortunatly so many people who don't practice see it as an advanced thuggery...

Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

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Monday, September 12, 2005 3:16 AM

wouldn't the best way to stop a fight before it starts be to run like buggery?

***************************************

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Monday, September 12, 2005 3:18 AM

CITIZEN

Not if they can run faster than you...
Or your on a boat...

I've been thinking about Monty Python and the holy grail, and I just worked out why:
"Bad Zoot! Naughty Zoot!"
hehe

Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

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Monday, September 12, 2005 3:29 AM

No no I'm Zoot's identical twin sister Dingo ...

Funnily enough I do actually have an identical twin sister - ah! How life mirrors art ...

Note to self: buy a bigger boat in case of sudden martial arts situation ...

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Monday, September 12, 2005 3:45 AM

CITIZEN

No, a smaller one:
If anyone requests 'fistycuffs' you tell them about your fantastic style of fighting, without fighting.
Then when they so go on then (or show me etc.) you say, no, not enough room here, that island.
Then get them to climb onto the inflatable, so you both can get there, and then cast it away...

Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

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Monday, September 12, 2005 4:17 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I’m pretty sure Whedon is a Democrat. One could probably do an internet search to find out what, if any political position, he’s taken that might be reported. But I’m afraid too. So many times, I do that only to find out that a celebrity that I held in high regard turns out to be a fruitcake when you add politics. And I just don’t want to find out that Whedon is a fruitcake. I realize that I'm too old to have celebrity heroes, but sue me.

On topic, I agree that it’s not anti-authoritarian as much as anti-establishment. Somewhat clichéd, though. The anti-establishment thing has been run into the ground. But someone said something on this board that I thought was rather interesting. The idea is that the anti-establishment ideal expressed in Firefly is a product of the anti-establishmentism of Mal and not necessarily an intrinsic quality. Sort of like the struggle between Antigone and Creon. You can sort of see the foundation of such an argument in the crew, where you’ve got examples of those who support the Polis (Inara and Book) and those that don’t (Mal and Zoe). I don’t know if that was the direction that Whedon was going with this. And I don’t think we will ever know, because I don’t know how well such an idea could be reflected in the movie. I think the movies will probably go in a very one-sided and much less thoughtful direction. But it’s an ingenious idea, not necessarily original, but certainly not the cookie-cutter stuff that is typical TV. Then again I could be reading way too much into it.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Monday, September 12, 2005 4:25 AM

Quote:
Then get them to climb onto the inflatable, so you both can get there, and then cast it away...

… wait for the inflatable to get into deep, deep shark-infested waters and puncture it with a handy arrow/ blow pipe that I just happen to have secreted about my person ...

So before getting into any fights I need to do the following:

1. take up archery and become really, REALLY good …

2. buy an inflatable boat…

3. move to (tropical) island paradise …

Hmmm… this martial arts thing is beginning to sound quite attractive …

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Monday, September 12, 2005 4:31 AM

Quote:
But it’s an ingenious idea, not necessarily original, but certainly not the cookie-cutter stuff that is typical TV

You're right, just because it’s an old idea, doesn’t make it hackneyed …

Best ideas usually have been used before… the Medea “my husband cheats on me so I’m gonna kill his new little bint in revenge and then, just maybe, my children” still plays well … I guess it’s the old argument of there being a finite number of plots in the world simply rehashed again and again…

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Monday, September 12, 2005 9:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:

Hmmm… this martial arts thing is beginning to sound quite attractive …

Martial arts (for me) is mostly about focus. The ability to step outside yourself and 'see' the whole situation. To avoid, rather than check; check rather than hurt; hurt rather than maim; maim rather than kill; for all life is sacred, nor can any be replaced (a Shaolin thing).
Tai-Chi is great for that, try it, you'll like it

A really big pipe works if you don't want to study formally.

And check out what Jackie Chan can do with just a chair...

Kwai-Chang Chrisisall

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Monday, September 12, 2005 9:54 AM