Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out by fireflygal

Quote:
Originally posted by Tracy:
I had the chance of speaking with both Alan and Joss at the premiere party. Both of them assured me that everything was going to be fine and ok and that Wash would be back. Joss wasn't specific as to how, but he said he had "many theories" (as I told him I had a couple myself). I trust him.

I spoke to Ron Glass after the premiere at Universal City on the 22nd. After complimenting him on his performance, I mentioned that I was a bit disappointed that we didn't learn Book's story. He said, "Tell Joss."

He didn't say anything else but MY impression/feeling was that he was not pleased that his character was killed off.

I knew this movie was going to River's story. My speculation was that the 2nd movie, if there was one, might explore Book and what moral choice he made, and that the third would wrap things up with Mal. And somewhere in there we would learn why Inara left her House.

I thoroughly enjoyed the movie: it was intense, dramatic, and ADULT. However, as an earlier poster pointed out: "this is dark Serenity not playful Firefly." The darkness and intensity makes me slightly reluctant to take my 13 and 11 year old daughters but I will. (Note to Joss: if anything happens to Kaylee in any sequels, my daughters will need therapy and I will be sending you the bill

)

I'm nervous about the demographics of the movie for non-Browncoats. Will adults looking for an intense drama be turned away because of the SF action-adventure elements? Will the teenagers and younger, looking for sf action-adventure, be turned off by the adult drama of the story? Let's hope us Browncoats and word of mouth will get people into the theater for this very unique movie.

P.S. Having seen Classic Star Trek change when it made it to the big screen, I suppose I knew in my heart that Serenity would be different from Firefly. It was still a surprise. I like both but I'll be in different moods for repeat reviewings.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tracy:
I had the chance of speaking with both Alan and Joss at the premiere party. Both of them assured me that everything was going to be fine and ok and that Wash would be back. Joss wasn't specific as to how, but he said he had "many theories" (as I told him I had a couple myself). I trust him.

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Tuesday, September 27, 2005 3:39 PM

FIREFLYGAL

I've seen the movie for the 5th time as of yesterday and come to realize I hate that Wash and Book die more and more each time. IN MY OPINION (let's be clear on that) it wasn't necessary, it wasn't what I wanted and despite Joss's quote saying he gives fans what they need, it sure as go se wasn't what I needed.

But as I have repeatedly said I will go see it again and again because I support Universal and the cast and I want the trilogy.

I aim to misbehave!

Firefly items:
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Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:17 PM

Thank you for the response, Fireflygal.

I've only seen the movie once. There is a lot going on and I am sure that I didn't catch all of it. I'm waiting for Friday for a 2nd veiwing.

Being old enough to have watched Classic Trek as it aired, I was sort of watching the movie the same way that I was watching the first Star Trek movie: please...please...be a good movie so that there will be more.

In terms of non-Browncoats, Book has so little screen time and so little involvement in the movie that his death has little meaning in the movie, except to show that The Operative is a bad and ruthless guy. But that was shown in the deaths of other people that Serenity contacted. So, the death of Book adds little to the movie. However, it does deprive us Browncoats of an extremely interesting and important character and the mystery of his background.

Wash, I liked very much but, I hate to say it, he was probably one of the most dispensable characters (or at least someone without a pending mystery when the show was canceled). I've read the theory that he had to die to make the danger to the others seem so very real and there is merit to that point of view. But I was already convinced of the danger so I'm not sure it added much.

And, in some ways, this is a reboot or restart of the show. Since there is $40 million involved, the movie is geared to a general audience, as well as us. But, the non-Browncoats don't know Wash well enough to feel the pain of his death. Save that for the sequel and until they know him, then they will feel it. In the movie he's just "the funny pilot" who dies.

The two deaths break up the ensemble. One of the charms of the series was the feeling of family. I couldn't quite hear the dialog, but Mal mumbles to River in the end something about "a ship runs on love". That was a bit missing because there was so much conflict and drama within the crew. I want to be part of the "Firefly" crew, I'm not so sure about sailing on the "Serenity".

I think the movie is an amazing achievement but it is "Serenity" not "Firefly". In the future, if I want an intense dramatic experience, I will pop the future Serentiy DVD into the player. If I want to have fun, I will probably pop a Firefly DVD in.

***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."

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Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:17 PM

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Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:17 PM

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Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:17 PM

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Wednesday, September 28, 2005 7:24 AM

MIKEYMO

Great review up on AICN, and the guy spends most of it talking about Joss's decision to off Book and Wash.

Quote:
Hola all. An emotionally torn Massawyrm here. For years I’ve bitched, I’ve ranted and I’ve downright screamed about the direction Hollywood went in the 80’s and never returned from. Many a film has pissed me off and let me down for absolutely failing the audiences of the world by making sure it always worked out in the end – making sure the heroes rode off into the sunset together. It seems that every mortal wound can be fixed these days, and as films are tested, retested and tested again we’ve ended up with a steady stream of homogenized entertainment that has forgotten the primary rule of ending a story – that there are two endings to every story: The ending the audience wants and the ending the audience really wants. The Audience wants E.T. to stay with Eliot. The audience wants Ilsa to stay with Rick, not Victor. The audience wants Jack to survive the cold waters to take care of Rose. And there’s a reason we love these movies despite these endings not being delivered. That’s because these endings suck. And for years, except for a few bright spots, these are the endings we’ve been given time and time again.

This has been my belief for years – something I’ve looked for in films, something I’ve hoped for in films and something that’s stuck with me in everything I’ve ever written. And tonight that belief has been tested. Joss Whedon has taken the crew of the Serenity, a crew I’ve come to love over time, put them through a hell from which they can never return and left me bleeding and crying on the mattress. And I don’t know if I want to kick him squaw in the nuts or kiss him square on the mouth for it.
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Joss Whedon has the biggest god damned set of balls I’ve seen in God knows how long. Joss Whedon has made a film that will piss off a lot of his fanbase, hell, that pissed me off, and if successful could have single handedly ushered back the days of old – at least as far as Genre Filmmaking is concerned. Joss Whedon has made his Seven Samurai, his Dirty Dozen, his Wild Bunch. Joss Whedon has made the first truly great space opera in quite some time.
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Serenity is everything Firefly always seemed to want to be but never was. Serenity is everything it should be and then some. Serenity is real honest to god Western that puts you right on the edge of your seat praying for someone, anyone to come out alive, and never promising that that’s actually going to happen. Serenity hits everything it aims at – it’s continuously funny, even in the most dramatic of sequences; it’s heartbreaking at the most unexpected of times; and it’s chock full of action and real danger every step of the way.

There is never a dull moment in Serenity, never a moment I wouldn’t willingly go back to and rewatch over and over again. And despite what Joss put me through, despite feeling cheated, feeling robbed, feeling like all of Firefly was just a sham, I can’t wait to go back. I can’t wait to spend those precious few moments with the crew of the Serenity one more time. And I never thought, even while watching the movie, that this was possible. I had no faith in Joss. I honestly thought he was going to cheat – that everything was just a dream, that this was all a premonition of River’s that would lead them on a different path, that River might possess some great, unknown juju that could fix it and make it all better. And that lack of faith scared me more than the idea of never seeing the crew alive again.

But I take it all back, Joss. I have faith. I believe in you now. You’ve made a real classic genre film, one I’ll see several more times in a theatre long before I can put it in my DVD player on repeat. One I’ll swear to in the morning when I wake up and give my daily praise to when I thank Cameron and Jackson and early Spielberg and early Lucas and Kurosawa and the Scott Brothers and the Wachowski Brothers. Never in a million years would I ever have guessed the name Whedon belonged in there. But apparently, it does.

Hear hear, my friend.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Friday, September 30, 2005 7:59 AM

JAEROMDARKWIND

I'ma have to agree with Firefly Gal here. I can honestly say that I enjoyed the film less because Wash died. Like many others, Book's death I can accept. I mean, he personally took down a spaceship before the end. He was a good character to sacrifice, and the whole movie suggested tantalizing possibilities about his past (IE was he an Operative?).

But Wash...

Wash's death served no purpose. It didn't make the movie more dramatic for me--I didn't believe he was dead until I saw his tombstone, and then I just felt betrayed. It didn't add a gritty realism to the story--one minute he was there, then he was impaled, then the scene ended. No special notice was even paid to it. It didn't add to the plot. Nothing that happened afterwards was even related to it (Zoe's "berseker" thing was kind of lame and only lasted like 5 seconds). It only left me feeling confused and let down. It made me downgrade my opinion of the film from great to mediocre.

Wash was the heart and soul of the crew. He was one of the things that made the show worth watching. He brought something to the show that no one else could, and Joss cut that off. Gratuitously, I might add.

I'm not a Buffy/Angel fan. My faith in Joss is based entirely on Firefly. And to see him casually throw away everyone's favorite character for no good reason seriously makes me doubt his abilities as a storyteller. Maybe Firefly was a fluke.

I had planned to go back to see it every week. Now I'm not sure that I'll go back at all. Maybe when it gets to the Dollar Theater.

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Friday, September 30, 2005 8:24 AM

TRACY

Quote:
Originally posted by Declan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tracy:
I had the chance of speaking with both Alan and Joss at the premiere party. Both of them assured me that everything was going to be fine and ok and that Wash would be back. Joss wasn't specific as to how, but he said he had "many theories" (as I told him I had a couple myself). I trust him.

I spoke to Ron Glass after the premiere at Universal City on the 22nd. After complimenting him on his performance, I mentioned that I was a bit disappointed that we didn't learn Book's story. He said, "Tell Joss."

He didn't say anything else but MY impression/feeling was that he was not pleased that his character was killed off.

That's not it at all - he had the same reply at Dragon Con when people suggested the chance of getting Book's backstory in comic book or novel form - if a novel, then made on CD and read by him. Ron thinks that we are VERY VOCAL and we're HEARD by TPTB when it comes to what we wanna see. I'd say wait and see what's next. For now, let's concentrate on trying to HAVE a next.

"Can I make a suggestion that doesn't involve violence? Or is this the wrong crowd for that?" (Wash)

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Friday, September 30, 2005 8:24 AM

HAWKINS

I am pro-death, it really needed to be there, and with Book off the ship I expected it, now Wash was a suprise but again, they needed a little traged, and to get Zoe to the same place Mal was...back in Serenity Valley, However I do disagree that more should have been killed, would've ruined all sequel hope to take to many, if Kaylee dies, then Simon may as well have, and with Simon dead, the reavers could've overrun River and Jayne, leaving Mal the only survivor, I just hope he doesn't try to re-place them, because no wise-cracking pilot is gonna replace Wash

"There are no heroes, just men like me."

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Friday, September 30, 2005 8:32 AM

FLYINGTAMS

Its time joss grows the up - if he has talent he does not have to kill of characters left right and center for some cheap effect.

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Friday, September 30, 2005 10:30 AM

TALLGRRL

*WAAAAAAAH-WAAAAAAAAAH*
oh quit yer belly-achin'.
how old are you?!
do you read? ever?
have you never ever in life seen a movie or play that didn't make you feel all goody goody touchy feely happy at the end?
ooooh....joss has some nerve having a STORY ARC in his writing.
damn! who does joss think he is for writing a story where things happen...like they do in REAL LIFE.
please.
i've started watching buffy and angel and it seems to me that joss is a big fan of 'shit happens'.
as far as i'm concerned, it's refreshing.
yeah, i gasped and actually said "son of a bitch!", but it was still a glorious experience.
do yourself a favour: read something. start with "romeo & juliet". or see "shakespere in love".
don't hate. appreciate.

"take me, sir. take me hard." -- zoe

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Friday, September 30, 2005 11:29 AM

JAEROMDARKWIND

I don't watch movies to be dissapointed and depressed. I watch movies to have a good time. Sorry if that offends you.

Firefly was fun, and enjoyable even in its darker moments. Serenity wasn't. And killing a well-loved main character for -shock value- isn't the mark of a good writer.

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Friday, September 30, 2005 12:28 PM

KIMBERS

Your thread reminds me of that movie MISERY.
If you haven't seen it - watch it. And then compare your comments to those of Kathy Bates character.

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Friday, September 30, 2005 1:12 PM

so then,

movie #2, everyone gets killed off, the universe implodes upon itself. But with some limited flashbacks so that we can see Wash and Book again.

movie #3, a prequel - cool!

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Friday, September 30, 2005 2:03 PM

LOL "Grumpy old man" sez "If real life had anything semblance to R&J or anything Shakespere, I'd shit my pants long ago on account that real life ain't that smarmy. I'd also burned the book that's my life if it turned out to be artsy-fartsy, instead of the real-messy life that it is" Truth be told, why pay all that money to watch a TV series, buy a DVD set, watch the movie 18 billiion times and spend/waste all of that time if it's just like real life? I can just go and people watch at the local mall. Actually much more fun and cheaper.

Movie don't have to have a happy ending, I agree - I do hate all of these Hollywood soppy smoppy kiss-kiss endings - find anything about Terry Gilliam's struggle in getting Brazil to the theatre the way "he wanted it" for reference. In any case, I digress. It could be a reflection of some human condition, but it shouldn't just merely mimic it - that would be boring. It should disect it and have me experience it a different way, make me learn and realize something. Simply mimicking real life, killing off people just to make me feel something exactly the way I would feel it is sort of a cop-out, sort of cheap shot. Personally, I enjoy escapist type of entertainment that has absolutely nothing like real life, I like my heroes to be able to do the impossible, to deftly and skillfully suspend my disbelieve while at the same time keeping me guessing on what's coming next. Yeah, movies are pretty formulaic as you see more of them, nothing is that original anyways; so why not "surprise" you a bit by off'ing a couple of characters for cheap thrill.

Best of all, I like movies with hope. Hope that the human kind can actually do something about with all of this crap that represents these real life human condition. Hope that we can change and rid ourselves of dictators and murderers; and maybe all of these pettiness that we have to swim in everyday. Hope that we can strive and shape the world around us to be something better, something grander. No, not a happy ending, just something to look forward to instead of a cheap reminder of what miserable existence we toil in day-in and day-out, that 800 years from now we are just as petty, as people die for the same crappy cheap reasons, that nothing will ever change and that none of this miserable existence makes any difference.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tallgrrl:

do yourself a favour: read something. start with "romeo & juliet". or see "shakespere in love".
don't hate. appreciate.

"take me, sir. take me hard." -- zoe

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Friday, September 30, 2005 2:39 PM

BROWNCOATFAN1

i was soo socked when wash and book died! Why? is also my question. and what the heck is books "sercret"? now im completely sad. disappointed:

"some people juggle geese."

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Friday, September 30, 2005 2:40 PM

What! no fireflyflan thong?

trying saying that 10 times...

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Friday, September 30, 2005 3:02 PM

NOONESPECIAL

CHIWETEL EJIOFOR (THE OPERATIVE) and BOOK are the same character. Oh wait ... nevermind.

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Friday, September 30, 2005 7:11 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Just saw the movie for the first time. Not the last.

Fireflygal, I'm sorry Joss's dramatic decision has hurt you so badly. Believe me, I understand. Perhaps not entirely agree, but understand.

Okay, where I'm coming from. Months ago I accidentally read a spoiler about Book and Wash's deaths -- some fool on another thread who hadn't properly spoilerized his test. I wanted to burn my eyes out. Knew I couldn't talk to my wife and daughter about it, ever. Tried to convince myself that I'd been punk'ed by some prevaricator. No such luck.

And since my wife had to leave on business for the weekend (no choice, but she'll see it first thing Monday) I can't even talk about it with her now.

My daughter accepted Book's death as a logical necessity (to show The Operative's ruthlessness), but is urinated as hell about Wash. But...

She also feels that it made the crew's peril at the end much more real to her -- she was worried as hell that Simon or Zoe -- or anyone-- was going to die too. A worry that spoiler spared me. Damn its hide.

Y'see, that spoiler affected my enjoyment of the film two ways -- one, it left me waiting for the moment of each death--but worse, it let me relax about the others!.

But... Look,I was worried that Serenity herself was gone forever--that crash landing seemed like damage beyond repair. But credit the late Mr. Universe with keeping a well equipped and supplied facility.

I thought one more friend was gone. Instead, Serenity still flies.

Had the TV show survived, the plot would probably not have reached the BDM's point until late in the second season -- what I've just seen is effectively a three-part season's end cliffhanger and resolution. Had we been able to share that extra one-and-a-half seasons with Book and Wash, perhaps we'd feel better about this. Perhaps not.

I'll miss my good friends, Wash and Book, but there are still more stories to be told in the 'Verse, and I hope Joss has the chance to tell them.

"She's tore up plenty -- but she'll fly true." -- Zoë Warren

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 2:48 AM

Someone mentioned Trek, and then I realized there's another sci-fi movie where something quite analogous happened, Star Trek II and the death of Spock. As I remember there was a similar outcry from the fans, with numerous complaints. Say what you want, but I think Joss handled these deaths much better.

In Trek you knew it was going to happen. They built it up and made it glaringly obvious. This gets you prepared and lets you have a big emotional response when it happens. I think Serenity's deaths have a less obvious impact when they happen since it is so sudden. You go into shock over it and try to deny it. But, it worms into you and eventually you have to accept it. It has a stronger effect on the tone of the movie and makes it feel like a real event, not a stage production or something tacked onto the movie to have a big finish.

Of course the ultimate silliness of Trek was revealed when Spock came back. If they could have stayed true and left him dead I would have greater respect for that series. We'll see if Joss can stay away from that.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 2:59 AM

FANOFSCIFI

My husband and I and my 2 boys (ages 12 and 15)went to see the movie yesterday. We are huge Firefly fans and eagerly anticipated this film. The movie delivered in so many ways, with its witty dialogue,great action, and portrayal of the characters. We wished for more screen time for some of the characters, but recognized the limitations of a film to do that.

Book's death was painful and dissapointing. My younger son leaned over and whispered, "But now we'll never know his story". I had to agree, but we were still able to enjoy the rest of the movie, up until Wash's death. After that, we were just shell-shocked.

Wash was my boys' favorite character. He made them laugh, and made them see that you can have value and contribute without necessarily being in the thick of every fight. The ride home in the car was quiet and subdued. When we got home, my 15-year old said, "I feel like we're all grieving". And we were.

I have to agree with the originator of this thread. Both deaths were uneccessary, but Wash's, especially hit hard, because he is the heart and soul and humor of the ship. I also loved his relationship with Zoe, and the fact that they were polar opposites and yet soulmates. I had hoped that they would explore that more. Now, even if they do, in a flashback, or something, it will be bittersweet because we will know that it ended in a horrible way, much too soon.

I agree with another poster who said that he goes to the movies to escape reality, and that if he wants to be sad and depressed, he can just turn on the news. I went to see this movie because I love Firefly, and its characters. ALL of it's characters. I fully expected them all to survive, and I don't think it made a better movie because two of them didn't. It made a sadder movie.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 3:17 AM

DIGIFICWRITER

This is starting to remind me of the outcry that erupted after Joss killed off Tara on BtVS. You didn't like the deaths, big freaking deal. Joss is free to do whatever he wants with his characters, and, like it or not, both Wash and Book's deaths serve a purpose (Wash's shows us just how senseless death can be, and also shows us the depth of his relationship with Zoe [quite frankly, Wash's death is the first time we EVER see a chink in her 'ice-woman' armor], and Book's not only serves the story, but is, IMO, handled very well and is actually a pretty good way for the character to go out).

I wouldn't have killed off Wash or Book were I writing the movie, but then, I'm not Joss, and I accept that he'll give his stories less-than-happy endings if it suits him and/or if he thinks it'll serve the story he wants to tell better (which, IMO, both of these deaths do).

Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me
Take me out to the black
Tell 'em I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
There's no place I can be
Since I've found Serenity
But you can't take the sky from me

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 3:17 AM

PLYTLE

Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Understood on the greater good thing but my deal is that he could do ANYTHING he wanted with those characters and a greater good could have been found with all of them alive.

Not a Buffy fan, so can't compare but I daresay Joss could have set Willow down the magical path without a death. He's a writer, no death, character takes a different path.

I hate to disagree, but no, Joss cannot do "ANYTHING." Sometimes, a writer must go where the characters and plot takes him. Homer could not have saved Hector. If he had, we would not still be reading the Iliad, because the book would have been untrue. Dickens could not have saved Sydney Carton.

The deaths of Book and Wash were sad, but what would have been infinitely worse is if Mal took on the Alliance and the Reavers and didn't lose something in the process. Why? Because it would have been untrue. Because it would have made the movie something different than what it was supposed to be. It would have become just another ridiculous film where the goodguys take on the world and never ever get wounded.

There was a price to pay for this mission. One of the themes of the show has been the costs of doing what is right. Mal has been wrestling with these costs since he brought River and Simon onboard.

It was part of the unnamed assassin's character that he go after Haven. It was part of Book's character that he fight an impossible battle instead of hide. Add the two together, and it would have been untrue for Book to have come out of that alive.

With Wash -- it didn't have to be Wash, but the whole crew is ready to die against the Reavers (and there are like five billion of them). With all we know about the Reavers, wouldn't we find it a touch unconvincing that seven people faced all of them and came out basically without a scratch?

They are important deaths. They are not the deaths we wanted, but there is a certain amount of realism in this show and movie that helped make it great. Not everyone gets a great death. And I would have been sorely disappointed if this movie was just another action film where the heroes do the impossible and everything turns their way.

That's not what I was looking for here.

Thank goodness I didn't get that.

-Paul Lytle

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 3:34 AM

JESIAHBLACK

There's nothing i can say that hasn't already been said.

I was going to mention a few things, but really, there's no need. I loved the movie. Everything about it. It hurt, but i loved it.

Some disagree. That's how it goes, i guess. I can, however, say that i'm somewhat glad to see such wildly varying opinions; if what Joss has done can bring out such emotions, then by my reckoning he's done something right.

EDIT: PLYTLE, you said it wonderfully.

"Oh, I was born, a six-gun in my hand. Behind a gun I'll make my final stand."

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 3:50 AM

SAFEAT2ND

I wish I could've gone into the movie not having seen the series. Got in fresh so to speak. I would've had a detached idea on how good this movie is. And as a newbie, it wouldn't have been a slap in the face that, at least for me and the 5 browncoats with me, detracted from the movie.

As a newbie, they were relatively miinor characters and as a newbie, it would have been just a step in the plot.

Here's the problem. I'm not a newbie. I've invested too much time in these charaters to see them...cast off with such ease.

I felt cheated as did the other 5 with me. Cheated my the manner by which they were dispatched. Cheated by the stories left untold.

I hate to say this but any story from here on will be like driving the car with 3 wheels.A wheel is missing and I can't see it being replaced. The "spare" will never messure up.

Joss pulled a George Lucas.

For the record I did like the movie, but I didn't love it.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 4:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:
Here's the problem. I'm not a newbie. I've invested too much time in these charaters to see them...cast off with such ease.

I felt cheated as did the other 5 with me. Cheated my the manner by which they were dispatched. Cheated by the stories left untold.

Isn't that the point? Death cheats us. We don't get to hear the stories from those of us who have died.

Joss is telling us something about death here. That's a story, he's telling a story that maybe you weren't expecting, but almost definitely don't want to hear. Maybe it doesn't make it your kind of movie, but the more I think about it the greater my appreciation.

People react different ways to loss, anger and rejection are a couple of them. Since Joss wrote the story he's the one responsible for the loss. Don't let yourself think that it's as casual or as cold-hearted as you might think, there's a point beyond the immediate emotional impact.

Personally I'd be delighted if this is the only time any of us have to deal with death, but it won't be.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 4:11 AM

WORFGZR

I haven't read all of the replies here, so excuse me if I repeat something someone else has said.

I'm torn between what I saw last night and the reality that Mr. Whedon must have faced when putting this movies together.

I find it hard to believe that he would arbitrarily kill off 2 of the core characters. It is more likely that Mr. Glass and Tudyk opted not to continue with the francise (if we can call it one), and Mr. Whedon was forced to write in the deaths.

The deaths of these 2 characters has affected me, and I truly wish they did not have to happen.

That said, I feel that the movie is up to, if not beyond Mr. Whedon's standards.

I'm not one to sit around and nit pick, River's backstory was OK, tho it did diverge from the series somewhat. But I don't care about the little stuff, I enjoyed the movie, hard emotions and all. I intend to see it again, and will buy the DVD when it's released.

I hope the movie does well enough to warrant a sequel and/or a series. I would gladly watch either.

In the end, however, I will sorely miss Book and Wash, and hope that we see them visit in some future movie or show. ( it occurs to me that a sequel that speaks to Book's past would make a helluva movie. And the appearance of Wash's twin wouldn't bother me a bit.)

Worfgzr

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 4:17 AM

Well... they've got your $54 + $185, that's all's needed. You don't *have* to love it.

Back to my cheap people watching at the airport.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 4:29 AM

KIAFORREST

I am "half newbie" so I’m unsure if my opinion matters or not, but…

My family of 7, discovered Firefly via the SciFi channel. Before the third episode aired we’d saved up and ordered the DVDs from Amazon. This DVD set has had more viewing in our home than any others: Ever. I hit the net (& this site) and read oodles of info, felt like I’d caught up a bit and enjoyed Firefly even more, and Wow! Look, a movie! I was excited, until….

I went looking for spoilers for two reasons:
1)Commentary from the creator about this Not being Firefly – loud red alert going off with That statement
2)I was curious about what folks who saw the bloggers preview experienced.

I’m over 40, was also around during the original Star Trek & remember loosing faith as the movies came along. I read spoilers for Serenity with Hope but what I thought were realistic expectations. When I read about Book & Wash I cried - just reading it in a synopsis did that to me. The creator of this 'verse scored real from me; give the man an apple. I've not seen Mr. Whedon’s other material, so I have only the Firefly shows to base my impression on and uh, I expected different.

On my Firefly DVDs, I see BDHs surviving incredible (fantastic) odds. A Good Day meant you were still flying. The *hope* in these shows, the preciousness of love in a battered ‘verse & its ability to heal even the most broken IN time, the essentialness of Family - however you create it (whether it’s 9 folks on a boat or a moma and about 40 ranch hands or a whorehouse); even the ability to Take your freedom on your own terms, not wait for it to be given to you spoke to me. I do the job & I get paid translated, with mirth, to my life. I don’t back up to the paycheck, I work hard & I get paid & I take care of me & mine & others in need the best I can. Does that make me a BDH? Maybe my heart needs to believe that a little too much in My Reality.

Perhaps if I'd known more about Mr. Whedon I never would have watched Firefly. But I am thankful for my ignorance in this regard. I love fantasy. FANTASY: unreal with a twist of possible enough to hold my interest and connect me to characters. Life is challenging enough & one Heck of an Adventure but I watch TV & movies to escape or enhance the challenge. There’s room for folks like me in the ‘verse, truly, or at least there was on Firefly.

In fairness to Mr. Whedon though, Firefly was cancelled. Maybe the Bigger Picture Reason was the fantasy factor? Heaven knows everything lately is about ‘reality’ until you almost choke on it. As I understood it there was a vision for Bigger, Bolder, More Realistic portrayal for Serenity. It seems it was fulfilled. Folks who have done their utmost to support the Movie got what was promised: A movie with certain characters by a certain creator that was a more realistic continuation of adventures in a certain ‘verse.

I find folks who are hurt or angry saying they will Support the Franchise not much different than those of us who lollopped along with Trek/ Paramount doing the same thing. But, being a bit older & less free with my time, dollars & affections, I’m sorry. No one gets to brutalize my heart for a cause or a franchise or just so I can call myself Browncoat or ask me to swallow a more realistic story arc so a sequel that Might include these folks Might be made….

Like uh, look I ‘might’ have swampland to sell ya. But first, buy this pile of jagged, sharp rocks that will cut you as you carry them away(serenity) so I can use that money to create a path to the swamp(sequel) where there might be swampland(third movie)… OK? – who would Buy that? (except for Congress :: grin :: )

Serenity cannot take the sky (Firefly) from me. Enjoy the more realistic journey, those with the heart to bear the cost. Those who do not - I can assure you that time does heal the ache. I watch Kirk and Crew these days with the same enjoyment as the old days & my children manage to enjoy it too. Remember, the Firefly 'verse is still shiny even if Serenity is dark & more real than some of us will be willing to bear.
ki

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 4:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:
Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:
Here's the problem. I'm not a newbie. I've invested too much time in these charaters to see them...cast off with such ease.

I felt cheated as did the other 5 with me. Cheated my the manner by which they were dispatched. Cheated by the stories left untold.

Isn't that the point? Death cheats us. We don't get to hear the stories from those of us who have died.

Joss is telling us something about death here. That's a story, he's telling a story that maybe you weren't expecting, but almost definitely don't want to hear. Maybe it doesn't make it your kind of movie, but the more I think about it the greater my appreciation.

Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.

Personally, it's a waste of celluloid to try and punctuate the movie this cheaply - resorting to using a cheapo dramatic device just to carry the plot along and make the rest of the movie "believable". phooey. We weren't cheated by death, we were cheated by a silly simple-minded dramatic ploy designed to swing the emotions of the fan. That's it, no one else watching it would even feel the same way - only a fan would. It's not an intellectual exercise or an allegory of real life - just a cheap movie schtick.

You are right, I have learnt me something. I've learnt that there are never an exception to "Hollywood is just Hollywood as ever - formulaic whenever possible, cheap emotion swings with asanine dramatic devices + orchestra music when everything else fails. Oh wait, I already knew that, I just had false hope otherwise.

Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:

People react different ways to loss, anger and rejection are a couple of them. Since Joss wrote the story he's the one responsible for the loss. Don't let yourself think that it's as casual or as cold-hearted as you might think, there's a point beyond the immediate emotional impact.

Personally I'd be delighted if this is the only time any of us have to deal with death, but it won't be.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 4:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.

The point is that people aren't being told this, they are feeling it. They feel cheated, like something is lost. They are reacting to it just like a real death. And people keep on blaming Joss for death, instead of looking at why they are reacting so.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
Great review up on AICN, and the guy spends most of it talking about Joss's decision to off Book and Wash.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------
Serenity is everything Firefly always seemed to want to be but never was. Serenity is everything it should be and then some. Serenity is real honest to god Western that puts you right on the edge of your seat praying for someone, anyone to come out alive, and never promising that that’s actually going to happen. Serenity hits everything it aims at – it’s continuously funny, even in the most dramatic of sequences; it’s heartbreaking at the most unexpected of times; and it’s chock full of action and real danger every step of the way.

Hear hear, my friend.

The best thing about this site is the intelligent, civil discussion. Having read other thoughts -- and after seeing the movie for a 2nd time where I could pay more detailed attention, I am going revise my opinion against Book's and Wash's deaths.

I am still sad that they died but I now think they were dramatically necessary. For the plot, Book's death forces Mal to make his decision. For emotional impact, watch how each of the death's affects the other characters. And, how they affect the audience! My 13 year old daughter was crying when Wash died. And, to paraphrase the Operative, they were good deaths. Book had just shot down the Alliance ship (I would have liked to see this but it would have distracted from the main story) and Wash had just done the most amazing piece of flying in his career.

I think Joss pulled out all stops to make it good and complete in itself because this movie may be all we are going to get (fingers crossed). I came to Firefly via DVD then watched Angel and Buffy where plenty of major characters died (how did Buffy fans make it from the end of Season 5 to Season 6?). If Firefly had continued, we probably would've seen character deaths, especially if there had been such a major confrontation with the Alliance.

So, I am going to go with the "Trust Joss" school and do remember that all 9 actors are supposed signed for 3 movies. I doubt Joss would do simple flashbacks, he'll do something that we won't see coming. And that's why we watch.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
Great review up on AICN, and the guy spends most of it talking about Joss's decision to off Book and Wash.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------
Serenity is everything Firefly always seemed to want to be but never was. Serenity is everything it should be and then some. Serenity is real honest to god Western that puts you right on the edge of your seat praying for someone, anyone to come out alive, and never promising that that’s actually going to happen. Serenity hits everything it aims at – it’s continuously funny, even in the most dramatic of sequences; it’s heartbreaking at the most unexpected of times; and it’s chock full of action and real danger every step of the way.

Hear hear, my friend.

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Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:14 AM

BROWNCOATMONK

I've been a Browncoat since before anyone described themselves as that. My forum name (and names in various MMORPG's and various unrelated forums) is homage to my favorite character Book. Book dies without his story being told!!! Herr Whedon mentions that it will be covered in a sequel--how? As a big flashback or more likely as a seesaw flashback current affair. Sorry while that could be good, it completely eliminates the ability to have Book essentially 'answer' questions. So Joss can 'artistically' leave Book and his Neo-Jesuit Monk Order still enigmatically vague. I'm already feeling unsatisfied.

Not to mention that Serenity appeared to have some concessions to all the short visioned sorts that swear up and down that Book had to be ex-Alliance Soldier/Police/etc accounting for all of his combat training with no training or knowledge coming after he joined said religious order(and within the past 7 years too--he's in his late 50's ok?!?). Sorry, Joss that background has already BEEN DONE in scifi, westerns, even modern genres. That's the problem everyone expects that and when you go that way then one becomes cliche.

I'm still hoping that my theory (which I no of no other to promote it before me) of Book being a long standing (20+ years) of a religious order that's function is more than the futuristic equivalent of transcribing texts. Whether it's information gathering (in the true spy/agent/operative sense), more aggressive defense of the faith and/or members of the faith (i.e. Warrior Monks), church problem solvers, or some more convoluted purpose. But alas that won't be truly answerable without a living member of the order that's also forthcoming--not easily managed with Book dead.

As for Wash dying, I'm a little more mixed. For one he died after they landed (to validate his flying skills) partially for shock value as much as anything. It does give Zoe an even more complicated emotional landscape, which is a good thing. Does eliminate the super pilot Deus ex Machina feeling that some sorts might have had (not I, as I have met crazy good real world pilots). The fact that he frequently had some of the best humorous lines is also a disappointment.

I do appreciate that people have to die to establish the credibility of risk. Also because of that idiot notion that arose from formal analysis of literature that unless the protagonists suffer and die a story isn't good. My feeling now is the same in regard to that second claim, get over it! I mean English professors would say that any work that doesn't have major tragedy is written poorly but the same prose capped with a sentence stating that they all died unhappily ever after would be validated in that mind set. That same idea pervades critical movie analysis--people must be tortured, struggling, and (hopefully?) die to validate a story as a 'classic'--writing, acting and directing are actually not relevant to this large growing swath of story critics. The death to validate danger is definitely relevant here though, I'm just bummed out about it.

Browncoat Monk

I don't care what you believe in as long as you BELIEVE!

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Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:08 AM

I doubt people needed to be told this. These things happen in *real life* and people experience it every single day. There are a billion different religions devoted to the reflection and explanation for this. This wasn't any lengthy expose or study on the topic, it was a 5 second sequence in a movie as a cheap ploy to swing emotions, cheap thrills that cost me $11 bucks + parking is not appreciated.

Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.

The point is that people aren't being told this, they are feeling it. They feel cheated, like something is lost. They are reacting to it just like a real death. And people keep on blaming Joss for death, instead of looking at why they are reacting so.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 12:38 AM

REAVERMADNESS

...I've read some of the posts and everything and don't know what to say. I agree with the original poster. I felt betrayed/mad/sick over the BDM. I can forgive many of the changes to the story line and some of the charaters, but to kill off two of our beloved crew? OK. Books death was atleast one with a point. It mad us mad. But he went down fighting to protect those he cared for. Wash....? That was just for shock value. We already had no love for the reavers. The ship was down safely (heck it would have been better had he died in the crash landing of the ship.) As it is/was he died for shock value. Did it shock? Heck yes it did, but was it good? No. Don't go on with the whole 'but in real life' crap either. In real life people die. Good people, bad people, everybody at some point. But I don't want to pay to see it. I wanted/expected/paid to see the rapier like wit of Wash. The wisdom (usually street) of Book. The poise of Inara. The sweetness of Kaylee. The awkward bookish Simon. The flippant devil-may-care Mal. (Yes, I know Joss wanted Mal "darker" than he was on tv, but still.) They weren't in this movie.

I am glad that it was called "Serenity". That way I can still be a Firefly Fan.

Firefly Rocks. Serenity sucks those rocks.

When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 1:15 AM

DONTKISSEMONTHEMOUTH

I'm not certain how I feel about the movie yet. And much of it has to do with these characters' deaths. Certainly, it was a surprise. I'm just not sure what the movie gained with these two deaths. Certainly, I accepted the gravity of the situation, and The Operative's brutality/coldness really came alive.

But it's a credit to the writing/acting that this happened for me well before either of my favorite ship buddies got it. I will admit that Wash's demise made for a profound punctuation mark what was an amazing and exciting sequence. It did make me (and several of my friends) worry that Joss was going to kill off the whole crew. Ikes! A body count does raise the stakes.

I'm less convinced about Book's death. It's grand that he brought down the raiding ship, but it made his character seem too much like a plot device and not the intricate, enigmatic and amazing character we'd come to recognize from the series. My reaction was, "Aw, just like Obi-Wan, only way less confusing/touching." It would be breaking the mold to have the wise old mentor survive. It almost seemed like it was done intentionally to upset Firefly fans' expectations as his character certainly wasn't developed enough for first-time viewers to feel much of an attachment.

For that matter, I worry that many of the characters really didn't get much quality time on the bigger screen. Oh some fantastic dialogue, granted, but not the dimensionality we'd seen the writers accomplish on the series with only one or two lines. And I found I missed that. Mayhaps repeat viewings will clear up how I feel about it.

Incidentally, to those who felt these deaths compared to the death of Spock, well I'd have to say you're wrong. I mean for me. I've watched ST: II dozens of times and every time I tear up at the end. Watching this film, my reaction was more like, "No, dammit. Why the hell'd you go and do that?!"

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Monday, October 3, 2005 3:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I doubt people needed to be told this. These things happen in *real life* and people experience it every single day. There are a billion different religions devoted to the reflection and explanation for this. This wasn't any lengthy expose or study on the topic, it was a 5 second sequence in a movie as a cheap ploy to swing emotions, cheap thrills that cost me $11 bucks + parking is not appreciated.

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I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You thought it was a cheap ploy, I see it as a theme that Joss keeps using and people keep misinterpreting.

As for dwelling in depth on it, Joss did that spectacularly with The Body, one of the best Buffy episodes. There wasn't time or space to do that in the movie, but it isn't like Joss couldn't.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 12:06 PM

XENOCIDE

Some part of me just thinks Joss can't help but kill people in loving relationships, but that's me being a curmudgeon. The first time he did it it was poignant, now it is getting kind of tired.

The rest of me was still pleased with it. At least the second time I saw the film I was pleased. And Book's story could still haunt the crew in the next movie.

And hell, zoe could be pregnant. Giving us a little Wash, plenty of room for family and flashbacks. I'll trust Joss, even though I think wrecking the beautiful dynamic of wash/zoe would have ruined the series (I really thought Buffy was a bathos train wreck after Tara died.) But it will serve well as a building block for the next two movies. We just have to make sure we get two more movies for Joss to make it work.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com

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Monday, October 3, 2005 1:19 PM