What else can I say? ***IMMENSE spoiler warning*** by BadgersHat

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What else can I say? ***IMMENSE spoiler warning***

POSTED BY: BADGERSHAT
UPDATED: Friday, October 7, 2005 08:01
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VIEWED: 5802
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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:49 PM

:(

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time. This is the Truth of Whedoning...

... and this time, it's made me sick to my stomach...

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:04 PM

COZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
:(

and this time, it's made me sick to my stomach...

I hear ya. Still, delivered an emotional punch, did it not? And I like to think that we here, us Browncoat wannabes, do not fear the emotional punches, but welcome them. In my mind, sorta divides quality entertainment from the run of the mill pap we most often are offered. Because, there's an integrity involved in boldly allowing a great cost in acheiving great ends. I might not like losing favourite characters, but I can certainly respect their loss. Anything less amounts to selling out to serve cuteness, which just sucks. Mr. Whedon, I salute your integrity!

My point? Serenity: helluva movie.

"You think somebody wouldn't go see somebody if they didn't want entertainment?"

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:06 PM

BADGERSHAT

I agree with you, it carried the intended emotional punch, and showed JW is totally unafraid of the Big Decisions.

But, I say again:

:(

--Jefé The Hat

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:07 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL

I thought kaylee got to say all the really fun words....she was soo cute...but a bit too lovesick.

I did like it though...saw more than once.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:18 PM

BADGERSHAT

Hey darlin...

Sad...

Very sad...

Loved the movie, don't get me wrong, but as I said to Mal-Licious, I've lost actual flesh and blood family members to various types of deaths, and had less trauma about some of them than I did...

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)

"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:22 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Hey you...I try to keep a lookout for you since you come round so infrequently.

It was sad. I did feel a bit betrayed...punched in the gut. I'm not a Joss fanatic, so it was all very new to me. It feels very final, doesn't it?

Still, I hope for more.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:26 PM

JWC

I absolutely agree. When Wash was killed (by a big sharp stick in a sci-fi movie...?!) it completely destroyed whatever enjoyment I was getting from it. I stopped having a good time right then. Instead I just kept wondering if Tudyk decided he didn't want to do any more work with Whedon, and agreed to have his character killed off, which isn't what you should be thinking watching a movie.
And then I was thinking well who else is he gonna kill off for no reason, and that when it all came unraveled for me. No more willing suspension of disbelief. I was just sitting there waiting for it to end, not really caring if more characters got whacked.
There is no point in getting attached to characters in Whedon’s work. Next time, I'll see something else. ANYTHING else!
Fans get attached to characters. That's what keeps shows going, the fans. When you mindf**k the fans, why should they go back. If I want to see statements about the gritty realities of life and people dying pointlessly, I'll turn on CNN. I sure don't need it in my entertainment.
Yeah, I'm bitterly disappointed at how this all went. If I wasn't an avid fan of the show, I probably wouldn't have cared so much, but I feel how I feel. I was MORE excited than anyone I knew about this movie, and now I feel embarrassed I made such a big deal about it. It didn't live up, and really just for that one reason. Why kill Wash? What's Whedons point? That he can do whatever he wants with his creation and we can all just lump it! Screw that. I'll take my interests elsewhere.
Oh, last thing, I guess Wash got scragged because he was actually a crappy pilot. Wash crashes Serenity leaving it in ruins. The reaver ship on the other hand, crewed by doped up lunatics, lands completely functional after following them through a colossal airborne battle and skewers him with a stick. It don't make no sense...

JWC

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:27 PM

BADGERSHAT

Yeah, I know, I've been MIA for a while. Been crazed at work, dealing with a lot of crap with the family, looking for a better job than I'm in now, etc... shameful, the way I've neglected my harem...

JW has proven, time and again, NO ONE is safe... hell, he killed Buffy, of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"--TWICE.

But ooohh, man, that really was hard to see.

Book, not as much, and not as shocking, to be honest.

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)

"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:37 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL

That's the thing, I didn't watch Buffy or the others...so, ouch.

I teared up, I did. Her "baby?" kept echoing in my ears...eep.

Book...oh my Book. If this story ever continues, I think we'll hear more of Jayne spouting Book's words.

If you find a job let me know...I'm still looking.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:54 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by jwc:

Oh, last thing, I guess Wash got scragged because he was actually a crappy pilot. Wash crashes Serenity leaving it in ruins. The reaver ship on the other hand, crewed by doped up lunatics, lands completely functional after following them through a colossal airborne battle and skewers him with a stick. It don't make no sense...
JWC

You mean the doped up lunatics who had all the freaking weapons? And whose ship hadn't been hit by a freaking particle beam weapon?

I understand your pain -- but don't cheapen Wash's achievement, or his sacrifice. Wash didn't die without reason. He died in the name of thirty million people whose lives were ended, or worse, and in the name of all those who had died since at the hands of the reavers. And he did it for River.

Maybe you'd be happier if some anonymous redshirt got killed? Or if someone off camera yelled "They got Biggs!"?

Let me clue you in on something: Trusty didn't just break his right front paw. He died. Walt Disney lied.

And if Wash was real enough for us all to hurt this way, then Joss Whedon did his job right!

IMHO.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:39 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Badger's Hat,

You might want to change the title of this thread to *MAJOR spoiler warning*. Some posts in this thread have spelled out specific details of MAJOR plot developments. Newbies will thank you.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:48 PM

JASONZZZ

bah

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13317#185514

Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:34 PM

JWC

I find I agree with your main points, with this exception. (Also IMO)

"And if Wash was real enough for us all to hurt this way, then Joss Whedon did his job right!"

There is no doubt that he can make us care about his characters. What I ahve a big problem with having them killed off just to evoke an emotional response. This is blatant manupilation. Wash didn't die because he was herioc. He died just to make us FEEL bad. By that I mean his death didn't serve the plot. He was a sacrifice, killed by the creator, to make us feel a certain way. To me, this is not story telling. It's just having your chain yanked.

I mean in the entire scene with the reavers, is it ever explained how they were able to shoot giant wooden stakes. And if they had 'particle beam weapons', why didn't they just fire those. (Answer: Cuz they are REAVERS, and they're just crazy like that. One takes off and they all follow! Reaver see, reaver do!) Now if the entire reaver fleet taking off to attack Serenity and ending up in battle against another fleet to attack Serenity, well just how contrived can you get?

I think if there is another movie or series or 'straight to video', Mal should get a reaver as a pilot. Apparently they fly thier death crates pretty well! And you should see em launch a stake! Good thing Wash wasn't a vampire! But then again, he'd still be dead wouldn't he? Ah well....

Finally, Wash did die in vain. The reason they wanted the worlds to know about what happened on Miranda was to get justice for the victims. Those responsible should pay. Nobody paid. Folks turned reaver, a planet is dead, and nobody got a slap on the wrist for it. The only repercussion was to the crew of Serenity being warned by the assasin that people in Parliment were not happy. Other than that, apparently nobody takes the responsibility for the deaths. (Kind of like Bush...)

As for spoiler warnings, the first post in this thread had a warning. Does it need to be repeated in every post?

JWC

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:47 PM

SOMEPEOPLEJUGGLEGEESE

i can't help but agree, i do think that Joss did a good job with making us love Wash and everyone else, but i don't see what the point is of killing him off. And i would love to have another series or something, but it just wouldn't be the same without Wash and Book, that was what made Firefly so good, not just how great the show was, but everyone got along and when everyone gets along, everything is better. After Wash died, i thought Joss was just gonna kill everyone off. I still loved the movie though, and want to see it again.

Zoe: "If she can fly the ship, why take the shuttle?"
Wash: "Maybe she liked shuttles..."
(Silence)
Wash: "Some people juggle geese!"

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 6:05 PM

JWC

Your reply brings up another thought. It just isn't "Firefly" without the whole crew.
I also had to wonder if the 'franchise' can keep going at two losses per movie.

What is really saddest to me is that the one character with a genuine sense of humor is gone. Wash was the jester. Now we have a thinned out bunch with a bad attitude (sort of sums up the fan base right now...)
Anyhoo, a terrible decision, and I'll regard any future Whedon product with reserve, knowing that I'll be lulled into liking characters just so they can be sacrificed. Welcome to the suck...

JWC

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:01 PM

KAYLEEFRYE

The reason Wash died was so you would believe that no one else was safe. That was the purpose, from the writer's point of view. It made you believe this danger was real. Without that, it would be just a tra-la-la in the park, which a confrontation with reavers is certainly not. It was for realism.

Also, Alan Tudyk himself suggested the idea of killing Wash because it would be a sympathetic kill, and he liked the way Wash died, with no "Go on without me, I'll hold them off"s because that's not what real life is like.

Besides which, aren't we taking this a little bit seriously? Don't get me wrong, I saw the movie three times and cried all three times when he died, but some of us are acting like it has ruined our lives here. It is just a movie, let;s not all freak out and get angry over a character;s death in a movie.

People we love die all the time. There are people in the Middle East dying every day. There are soldiers dying every day, too. That is what war is, war is death. And Mal and the crew of Serenity couldn't take on a war like this without facing some deaths of their own. Think how lucky we are that we didn't lose Zoe when she was knifed in the back, or Kaylee when she was darted, or Simon when he was shot, or River when she faced the Reavers, or Mal when he faced the Operative. Just keep all that in mind.

And think how lucky we were to see Wash again at all! If we didn't have this movie, Wash and everyone else would be just as dead as if we had seen them die. So let's be thankful for that. Instead of dwelling on how we lost Wash, let's revel in the fact that we got to see him again.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:15 PM

LORDCHUTULU

i agree that i at least am taking this a little seriously. all i can say is that i agree. life is pain. i get enough death, disease, and destruction from the news let alone real life (i have a couple close family members who are terminally ill). when i put my emotion into make believe, all i ask for is a happily ever after. not any show will do. i can't stand all the fluffy, shallow b.s. that passes for entertainment these days. firefly was deep, funny, and like all the greatest sci-fi, the fi didn't run off and leave the sci behind. put the characters in peril... but at least get them to the hospital and on the mend in the end. it was a dream come true to get to see the whole crew again. but like i said in another thread, to me this wasn't a continuation of the story, but an end.

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Friday, October 7, 2005 3:23 AM

SOMEPEOPLEJUGGLEGEESE

Don't get me wrong, i loved the movie. And even Wash and Book being killed off can't stop that. I don't think that it is the end of the world because they died, i'm just a little upset, and them dying isn't going to stop me from seeing it again this weekend.

Zoe: "If she can fly ths ship, why take the shuttle?"
Wash: "Maybe she likes shuttles..."
(Silence)
Wash: "Some people juggle geese!"

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Friday, October 7, 2005 4:25 AM

SPDRPARKER

Has anyone stopped to consider that Wash fell to Reavers? Which were created by the government body chasing Serenity?

Not only did Wash's death show the very real threat in this big rush to send out the message, which was incredibly effective. But Wash was one of the "innocent" people that were dying because of this action by the Alliance. When Mal responds to the operative "You have no idea how true that is." I can only believe that Wash's death helps enforce the belief that this is more than the right thing to do to the captain.

Wash didn't die heroicly, but he became part of the reason for the actions that were already in motion. We can't really care for the people the Reavers have killed, despite all the talk, there's really no sense of wanting to see the horrid secret of the Reavers revealed than to see how things react. With Wash's demise due to Reavers, it can instill a point of justice to not only the characters, but also the fans.

Wash was probably my favorite character(hard to straight out choose with this many good characters), but the point of his death drove hard some basic plot facts, you just have to look at it from the plot and not how attached you were to the character.

Corbitt
Just that gorram shiny

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Friday, October 7, 2005 5:39 AM

BUCKTHORN42

One thing I liked about Wash's death:

When Book died, it was sort of "meh". I mean, not that I cheered or anything, but I think we'll agree that Book wasn't as much of a core portion of the crew as Wash was. Book was sort of inconvenient to have around ("Aeriel") and although we did get glimpses into his life ("OiS") he was unfortunately more secondary.

When Wash died, I suddenly had the feeling that all bets were off. This isn't a redshirt or a secondary character, this is someone that many fans loved and even identified with. When the

started with the Reavers, you didn't know if anyone was safe. Several people on LJ were ocnvinced at that point that Joss was going to kill off the entire crew, or at least a good portion of it. That made for HUGE tension during that entire sequence, and if you hadn't seen the image of River standing after defeating the reavers (which I understand was out there on the net in places), you couldn't be 100% sure she was going to make it either.

Yes, it hurts to have Wash dead and it's hard to imagine Serenity without him. But Joss said that the character's lives were going to be changed after this movie, and I think that was very well demonstrated.

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Friday, October 7, 2005 5:45 AM

FIREFLYFAN278

Actually, when River went into the room and closed the hatch so she was alone with the Reavers, I thought to myself, well, the Reavers are all gonna be dead.

I had no worries at all about River's survival and due to the death of Wash I no longer cared about the rest of the crew.

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Friday, October 7, 2005 5:54 AM

BUCKTHORN42

I had no worries at all about River's survival and due to the death of Wash I no longer cared about the rest of the crew.

... and that's surprising.

I understand that one would detatch oneself from the charcters as a defense mechanism, and I won't fault you for going in that direction. We all have different levels of engagement and different reactions to crisis.

For me, it got me more involved. YMMV.

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Friday, October 7, 2005 6:26 AM

DUG

Weren't Alan Tudyk and Ron Glass the last 2 to commit to the movie? I've been wondering whether their deaths could have been a writer having to handle actors that had stated they would not be there for future movies. If Joss knew that those 2 wouldn't be back he isn't guilty of just randomly picking someone to die; instead he was using a known loss to a greater impact.

Quote:
I had no worries at all about River's survival and due to the death of Wash I no longer cared about the rest of the crew.

I didn't get that at all. The loss of Wash hurt, but it did not make me care less for the rest of the crew's fate. Instead it made me care more, as intended. I have never felt that any crewmember of a Star Trek ship was actually at risk during a movie (not even the ones I knew were going to die). Since I know all of the ST crew will make it everything felt safe. And therefore boring. Wash's death rammed it home even further that in Joss's world there is no one who is guaranteed to be safe, and that is far more intersting because it means that there is actually something at stake. If Wash had come through unscathed I would have had full faith that River would have been ok. Instead, since everyone's life was at risk I doubted whether she would make it.

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Friday, October 7, 2005 6:58 AM

KHIMBAR

We've been talking about this all day since seeing it last night. Wash's death seemed just to be there to make us jump, and to show us how serious the situation was.

In which case why Wash? I would have killed Zoe instead or Simon later. Not because the characters are weaker or because it would have had less impact, but because it would have added more.

Imagine Simon died for River, sacrficing himself somehow. The importance of love is reinforced and we get a nice reason for River to stay on Serenity, not to mention every Browncoat in tears.

Imagine Zoe dies in the fight (heroically of course). The importance of love is reinforced and Wash gets a nice character arc going from ships joker to a darker, bitter man, and all the Browncoats in tears.

Imagine Wash gets speared in a shock value moment.
We get to think 'did Alan not want to make the second film?' and what a pointless (no pun intended) death that was. Sure we worried more about the rest of the characters but it drew me out of the film.

When I get the dvd (if I do) Book's death will, the more I see it, make me think and make me cry.
Wash's will make me think 'how did they do that effect'.

We don't even know if we'll be seeing it again.

Pointless death aside, it was on helluva movie.

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Friday, October 7, 2005 8:01 AM

JWC

Yep, your completely right. I'm taking it too seriously! Thanks for the wake up.

It's still nice to be able to 'process my feelings' with other folks.
Guess I can get on with the rest of my pathetic life now.

Cheers!

JWC

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