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Originally posted by LadyShelley:
I think this is where some of the hurt and anger may be coming from: we're dependent on a sequel for the catharsis of seeing how Zoe and the crew deals with Wash, and to a lesser extent Book, dying. We're dependent on the production company giving us permission so to speak to see the next chapter. If Firefly were still on the air, this probably would have been the season two finale, but we would know that in season three we'd see more about how teh characters moved on and dealt with the pain, and then we could as well(I realize this still assumes a bigger power is involved, but let's also assume Firefly was a huge hit by now and the network would never think of canceling until the story was done. )

Right now we have to wait probably two more years to find out what happens next. That's a lot of time for nail biting and worry about if it will get made at all.

Lady Shelley
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http://www.redhawke.org]

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Originally posted by Xepherys:
I really don't understand why you are so banged up by this fireflygal. Admittedly, I am a new Firefly fan. Serentity (the movie) was my first exposure and frankly, I'm hooked. But I've been a Joss Whedon fan for along time. I've been a fan of Buffy since Day 1. I know this is a shock to some of you who have been here a while, but there was a Joss before there was Firefly.

Throught the seven very successful seasons of Buffy, several beloved characters died. Heck, Buffy died twice (though she came back). Miss Calendar. Tara (which was heart wrenching). But it made the story a story.

I also enjoy reading fantasy genre books, mostly set in the D&D realms (Forgotten Relams or DragonLance). I love R.A. Salvatore's writing, but the fact that Drizzt never ever dies makes it SO unbelievable. Yes, I know... it's fiction... FANTASY fiction at that. I'd still like a feeling of excitement and intrigue. Sadly, the death of a major character is sometimes the best way to do this.

As a final note... Joss doesn't owe you anything. Joss' style of writing and bringing his characters to life is why I (and others) love his work. He owes you no more than Lucas owes us a reason for that damned Jar Jar. It is what it is...

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Originally posted by Greeneo:
I'm new here but I've read every single post in this thread, how's that for a rite of passage? I'm in the "You stole my sky" camp as well.

My hope for the movie was that it be successful enough to give us more Firefly. But now, regardless of whether or not it is that successful, it is not what I fell in love with: a band of misfits finding home and family with each other on Serenity, more a state of mind than the name of a ship. Instead, it is darker and it is missing loved members of the crew.

The two deaths are well done in a technical sense. Book was the typical "Hollywood" death with a speech, but the cliche is used to catch us off guard. We figure we have been through the token death, and bam, we are hit with Wash. It worked extremely well in providing peril in the finale—I was sure everyone was going to die. But it fails after that with the fight between Mal and The Operative.

We've established realistic danger, but the final fight does not follow realist rules. The shot in the back was fine since the Alliance seems to prefer stun guns (see "Ariel"), but as for being run through with a sword, I figured Mal was done. Especially since he removed the sword, which can do just as much damage as when it entered. The way he kept going after that was annoying since it had previously been established that the danger was real.

Straddling both fences like that is what makes me mad. Add to it the love and time spent with those characters and it downright blows.

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My hope for the movie was that it be successful enough to give us more Firefly. But now, regardless of whether or not it is that successful, it is not what I fell in love with: a band of misfits finding home and family with each other on Serenity, more a state of mind than the name of a ship. Instead, it is darker and it is missing loved members of the crew.

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Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Well finally! I've been waiting to read this thread since it first posted and I now I've finished it.

I'm in the "He shouldn't have done it" camp.

Book is merely The Character Who Exists To Die So His Death Can Motivate the Main Character To Do What He Has To Do. To relegate the character of Book to this hackneyed cliche is unconscionable.

I'm not accepting of either death, but I'm more accepting of Wash's (in terms of the story) than Book's. I'm less accepting of Wash's in terms of characters I want to see die.

As FFG has said before I find it hard to believe there would have been a post complaining about no deaths if that had been the case.

I (due to my own stupidity) was spoiled on these deaths before the movie so I knew no other characters were going to buy it. So I'll never know if Wash's death would have made be feel like "Oh no, now anybody could die" and increased my anxiety in the end that someone else might kick it. Most likely my reaction probably would have been something along the lines of what Joey LaMotta said to his brother Jake in RAGING BULL: "So just kill people whydonchya?! Go ahead! Kill Book, kill Wash, kill fuckin' everybody, whydonchya! Just go around and kill people, ya fat fuck"! Although I probably wouldn't call Joss a "fat fuck". But Joey LaMotta would.

I would have accepted the deaths of these characters (assuming they had been earned) if they had happened during the course of the show. The same if it had happened in a sequel. But in the first movie? We've been waiting three years to see these characters again. Don't slap us in face by killing some of them off.

I don't agree with the idea that Wash's death was made significant by the this-proves-something-was-at-stake argument. I do agree that clearly his death informs the character of Zoe and in a sequel it will serve to develop Zoe's character. But if we don't get that sequel then it really was all for naught (IMHO).

If Joss wanted to impress me by killing off a character then he should've killed off Mal. Although, since Joss doesn't know I exist-- actually that's not true, I asked him a question at Comic-Con in 2003, but I'm willing to bet he doesn't remember me ; ) --I seriously doubt he was trying to impress me.

I'm also with those who believe that the Operative's story is Book's backstory. But if true, I would've rather learned that through Book rather than another character, thankyouveddymuch.

I do think that overall this was a good movie. Not great, not very good, just good. The pacing is terrific and about 98% of the humor works very well. And in my own personal opinion the sun of SERENITY shone most brightly on Zoe/Gina.

But I must say that I was disappointed. Funny thing, I saw it Friday night alone, and had had this mental list of things I thought didn't work. Then I saw it with friends on Saturday (all of whom liked it and 7 out of the 10 of us had no knowledge of FIREFLY) and I enjoyed it more. But then after that, I was giving my friend a ride home and I was explaining to him some of the things I thought didn't work. And I got myself all pissed off all over again (not about Wash and Book--other stuff).

I don't think Joss OWES us an explanation for whacking Book and Wash, but I sure would like to hear it. If the reason is because newbies had to know he means business when he puts his characters in danger, then I would say this was a miscalculation on his part because the people these killings had the least affect on were newbies. Of course, I can't know that for a fact, but I think it's a reasonable assumption.

Bottom line, if there's a sequel I will go see it. I will look forward to WONDER WOMAN, GONERS, ASTONISHING X-MEN and anything else Joss does in the future.

Until then those of us who think Joss shouldn't have done it will really have to...

Keep flying.

So long, folks!

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Originally posted by Quasarwinds:
If Book and Wash hadn't died the movie would have been just another flick. It's real and it's raw and that's why it's good. As for the mood of the crew, well watch the last part of the movie again

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Originally posted by scifigirl:
Hello! This is my first post. :) I know I am a little late, but I wanted to add my two cents.
I was so glad to read your comments, Fireflygal. I posted about who I angry I was about Wash and Book being killed on another Firefly fan site, and I got chewed out for it!!! So I was actually happy to met someone else who was upset about this.
To tell you the truth, I was dissapointed about the whole movie. The movie was not nearly as good as I was hoping it would it be. It was just a combination of a lot of little things (besides the killings, I mean) that bugged me. I thought the plot line was a little weak. I mean, the origin of the Reavers was kind of interesting; but it seemed a little lame that that was why the Alliance tried so hard to get River. I was like, 'Is that all?' I don't know what I was expecting, but I thought it would be a little more dramatic than that.
But I totally agree with you about being upset about the killings!! Why in the verse did Joss kill off Wash??!!! I can see killing off the Book, he never really did much for the show; although I was very dissapointed that you never really found out his secret. But his death didn't bother me much. But Wash??? He was the best character of the whole show!! I loved him. He was the innocent comedy that made Firelfy hillarious. And then, to add innsult ot injury, Wash didn't even get the basic dieing farwell. I think that is what bothered me the most. Shepard Book got his tearful goodbye in; why didn't Wash? He didn't even get to say good-bye to Zoe! He was just dead!
I will admit, Wash's death was the last thing I expected. And for the first time in a long, long time, I gasped out loud during a movie. So if Joss was going for the shock value, he got it. He also got tears.
For me, if they do make a sequal, it just won't be the same without Wash. He was part of the family.

So anyway, that is what I think. Thanks for letting me vent!!! :)

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Originally posted by kipli:
I joined just to reply to this thread.

I'm not sure if I want to see Serenity again. I'm not sure if I want to take friends to see it. They are better off believing Wash is still alive and growing as a person, as a character. I realize if the series had gone on, he might very well have been the first killed off, but somehow I think his death, even if it had been just as sudden, would have had an arc behind it. This was nothing. And that's my problem with it.

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Originally posted by DONTKISSEMONTHEMOUTH:
Incidentally, to those who felt these deaths compared to the death of Spock, well I'd have to say you're wrong. I mean for me. I've watched ST: II dozens of times and every time I tear up at the end. Watching this film, my reaction was more like, "No, dammit. Why the hell'd you go and do that?!"

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This afternoon I felt like not working on my stuff so I put in disk 1 of the DVD's. And the problems that I saw in the movie were oh so apparent.

The characters were pretty much 1 dimensional. I mean, how many times did Nathon get told, look angry in this scene. It was pretty much every one. I can hear Joss know saying, "Ok, in this scene Mal will get angry at x ". Or "In this scene, Mal will run away ." Weak.

As was mentioned prior (some other thread perhaps), Jayne didn't complain about not getting payed, etc. Can't remember one time. He wasn't really Jayne at all.

Wash, as mentioned above, was just a one liner.

Zoe was... Well, she didn't make enough of an impression on me in the movie to remember.

Inara. If I were Morena, I'd be pissed about the whole thing.

Kaylee, though the most like the original character, there were numerous differences ie she didn't look like she enjoyed a hamburger from time to time like Joss wanted her to look for the series.

Book, as mentioned above, was religated to a footnote.

Simon and River, both different.

Basically, all characters are shadows of there original selves. Even then, they are all different enough to not really be considered the same characters. Pisses me off.

And what the hell was about Mr. Universe. Mr. convenient for the trite ending that had no basis to how things were done in the show, more like it.

Sure I exepect differences, but seriously. Am I supposed to swollow this?

And now for "The Operative." Should the best actor, best developed character, in the movie, be the new big bad around for just that one movie? What the hell was that about?

And why didn't he kill himself at the end? Die on his own sword for his own failures as it were. Inconsistant.

But, what pisses me off the most, is the dialog. While watching the series today, in every scene, there was laughing, clever witty remarks, possibly tension of some sort, etc. Every scene!

It's as though in the series, everything was put together with purpose. Every word/remark/action/etc thought out to make the scene work and put together in a way that as a whole, the show flowed smooth. This movie had no such thing.

The scenes seemed to be slapped together. The laughing was few and far between. The dialog was insulting relative to Joss' set standards in the series.

For any fan of the series (like me), I gather that this movie was a big disappointment.


I also gather that the FF world will schism. Those "purists" who will stick with the show and the - enter whatever name you want to call yourselves here - who agree with and/or accept the movie (even though it rewrites history somewhat).


Anyway, that's my view on the whole thing.

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